“The carnage will be earthwide” – new Watchtower describes fate of unbelievers
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The latest Watchtower evokes images from Hitchcock's thriller "The Birds" in describing Armageddon

The latest Watchtower evokes scenes from Hitchcock’s thriller “The Birds” in describing Armageddon

The latest February 15th Study Edition of the Watchtower is now available for download on JW.org – but one gruesome paragraph in particular will stand out for thinking Witnesses.

In the study article entitled “Hail Christ, the Glorious King!” one of the concluding paragraphs paints a grim picture of global carnage at Armageddon. Jeremiah 25:33 is invoked to remind Witnesses that those killed at Armageddon will be “from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.”

And in wording reminiscent of Alfred Hitchcock’s 1963 film “The Birds,” Watchtower applies the prophecy at Revelation 19:17,18 to describe the ultimate fate of any who ignore their teachings… (bold is mine)

“In poetic language, the psalmist prophesies that the King’s ‘arrows are sharp, piercing the hearts of his enemies’ and ‘making peoples fall before him.’ The carnage will be earth wide. Jeremiah’s prophecy foretells: “Those slain by Jehovah in that day will be from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.” (Jer. 25:33) A parallel prophecy states: “I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: ‘Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.’”—Rev. 19:17, 18.” (w14 2/15 p.7)

As though the use of the scripture in Revelation isn’t graphic and disturbing enough, with birds being summoned to “cleanse” the earth of the corpses of those slain, the warning is supported by a chilling illustration on the same page.

birds-of-armageddonThe message is simple. All must heed the Governing Body‘s self-proclaimed authority, or else expect to end up as bird food when Armageddon strikes.

Sadly this is not the first time the leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses have resorted to fear-mongering to keep adherents in check. Those like myself who have grown up in the organization will recall countless images in Watchtower publications depicting the death of unbelievers at Armageddon.

And in one of his talks, Governing Body member Anthony Morris III drew from his Vietnam experience to give a morbid foregleam of a slain one as being “like a hot dog on a grill, blackened and splitting open.”

Those who choose to cling to such dreadful rhetoric as stated above need to ask themselves three questions: (1) “If there really is so much at stake, isn’t it worthwhile subjecting my beliefs to a rigorous test to make sure they really do add up?” (2) “Is this really a religion of love if its leaders need to threaten people in this way?” and (3) “Would Jehovah really kill all who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses when Armageddon strikes, even though these number into the billions, with a third of the world’s population in many Asian and Muslim countries never even having heard our message?”

 

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115 Responses to “The carnage will be earthwide” – new Watchtower describes fate of unbelievers

  1. Admin Jeni says:

    I remember being 6 years old and asking my then non-witness dad why he wanted to be bird food. Ah memories!

  2. JBob says:

    Yes, for those who are thinking. Just stop and think about how the Wt and GB lift themselves above the fray of those “other religious” who paint “Jehovah” as a ‘mean God’ who will burn and torture the wicked forever in Hell–never linking this to fear, but here it is again and again in Wt literature–from trains hurtling through gaping gap of a missing bridge, flames of heaven burning steeples and capital, legislative domes, to visions of Har-Mageddon (literally, the Mountain of Meggido, yet the battle is to be fought on the plains?), and now birds cleansing the earth of corpses littering the ground.

    For those who are exposed to evangelical Christian rhetoric, this vision is not new–other millenialist groups project the Rapture and a fear-inducing vision of those “left behind” and the chaos as faithful are plucked from their “day jobs” and trains and planes crash. Those aware of the First Awakening will evoke the image of “sinners in the hands of an angry God” from Jonathan Edwards.

    If you can’t create a sense of immediate urgency, the next best dollar-grab is to shock-the-heck out of believers and potential converts with “this is what my God will do to you, if you don’t join my belief system”.

  3. Vidiot says:

    “Saw” movies = torture porn.

    WT theology = apocalypse porn.

  4. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    Words fail to convey my contempt for the GB. I am no longer a believer, but I dimly recall reading that Jesus died for everyone, not just a splinter group from the 7th day Adventists.

    It’s an utter disgrace to condemn billions of people to a horrific death.

    To put this in context replace Jehovah with any government and you have genocide and condemnation from the UN.

    Fear can only control through furious effort. Love brings people together.

    Will this feature in the public version of the watchtower? I very much doubt it!

    These people are sick. They have created the God they desire – a god of fear and death and sacrifice. A god that has no mercy and no compassion. This god is as far from Jesus’ God as it is possible to be.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  5. Admin Jeni says:

    @JBob, you are exactly right!

    The only real difference between JW Armageddon and Hell is the waiting period, and the fact that Hell happens behind closed doors instead of out in the streets while the faithful ones frolic through the carnage.

  6. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    Cedars, did you notice in the previous paragraph that the GB who have already died will aid Jesus and the angels to bump us all off?

    Just imagine that! Rutherford coming back to kick some backsides!

    These people are deluded and so very far from the spirit of Christ.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  7. Wilhelm says:

    2 Peter 2:22 …. “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
    This is a description of you people. The person that came to know the truth according to GOD’s word and then do the opposite will be removed from the face of GOD. People that did not have the opportunity to have a bible and did not have the opportunity to understand will not be judged in the manner Cedars descibed will be happening to people that is not a JW. Is it so difficult to understand or is it just that Satan blinded your ability to think in a logical way. Your reasoning is like those of idiotic kids.

    • Cedars says:

      Wilhelm – before I ban you for hurling insults and being an obvious troll, could you answer a simple question?

      You say…
      “People that did not have the opportunity to have a bible and did not have the opportunity to understand will not be judged in the manner Cedars descibed will be happening to people that is not a JW.”

      Where does it say in the literature that people in countries where the Bible is not common will be spared destruction at Armageddon? Have you come up with this “new light” yourself? I suspect so. In which case, welcome to the apostate club.

  8. Sue says:

    Wilhelm,
    Are you serious? The only person spouting bile, is you. What you have said is not loving, kind or realistic. One day maybe, you will get help and then be able to forgive yourself for the ridiculous statements you have just made. I forgive you already because, ignorance, indoctrination and mind control, must be very difficult to overcome and you are clearly not ready to start healing the abuse to which you have been subjected.

  9. attributes says:

    will JW`s have to realise what gives then any
    status over others just because they read something out of a magazine produced by a corporation
    in Brooklyn well I think that they r misled by self righteous self appointed men

  10. Google Translate:
    Good approach to the matter, brother Cedar . Already here in Brazil have an experience that I heard in the Assembly Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses yesterday, Sunday, November 9, 2013 . There was a reported experience from the stage where a brother with a very heavy conscience reported something like this:

    “I was alone at work and brother , in this situation , I accessed the internet . Did it in , just entering and viewing pornography .”

    This brother then appealed to the elders ( in these cases , and mistakenly turn distortedly the Letter of James that says to ‘ seek the elders when we’re sick ‘ but that the Corps Rulers who want to punish sinners , distorted and covertly use this text to make the ‘ spiritual ill ‘ , as they call it , to go pay bills with your congregation elder ) . The elders then , when considering the matter , realized that ‘ there was a standard ‘ that took his brother to sin , seeing pornography . What was the ” standard” ? The old man said :

    “Brother , his sin was made precisely because his brother was accessing the internet alone.”

    Thus, the ‘sick’ brother was convinced and determined to ” never access the internet alone

    “Boa abordagem da matéria, irmão Cedar. Já daqui do Brasil tenho uma experiência que ouvi no Salão de Assembleia das Testemunhas de Jeová ontem, domingo, 09 de novembro de 2013. Houve uma experiência relatada desde o palco onde um irmão com a consciência muito pesada relatava algo assim:

    “Eu estava sozinho no trabalho irmão e, nesta situação, acessei a internet. no que fiz isso, acabei entrando e vendo a pornografia”.

    Esse irmão recorreu então aos anciãos (nesses casos recorrem equivocadamente e distorcidamente à Carta de Tiago que diz para ‘procurarmos os anciãos quando estivermos doentes’ mas que os do Corpo dos Governantes, que querem punir os pecadores, usam distorcida e camufladamente esse texto para fazer o ‘doente espiritual’, como eles chamam, a ir prestar contas com o seu ancião congregacional). Os anciãos então, ao verificarem o assunto, perceberam que ‘houve um padrão’ que levou o irmão a pecar, vendo a pornografia. Qual foi o “padrão”? O ancião disse:

    “Irmão, seu pecado se deu exatamente porque o irmão estava acessando a internet sozinho”.

    Com isso, o irmão ‘doente’ ficou convencido e determinado a “nunca mais acessar a internet sozinho”

    O que os irmãos aqui acham que o do Corpo dos Governantes estão realmente preocupado de os irmãos TJ’s ‘acessem sozinhos’? Será que estão preocupados que nós ‘acessemos a pornografia’ mesmo, ou é outros sites que eles não querem que as TJ’s vejam?

    Eu arrisco a dizer que a preocupação real deles é que os irmãos venham a acessar o site do irmão e o meu, por exemplo.

    O ‘alerta’, como disse o orador do discurso, ‘é claro: não acessem a internet sozinhos. Acessem quando estiverem em família’.

    Depois disso lembrei que um dos motivos de eles também terem instituído a “Noite de Adoração em Família” foi justamente para que ‘um membro da família vigiasse o outro e não pudessem chegar à verdade bíblica nas cessões de estudo’.

    Realmente, esses homens usam de espertezas e tramoias para nos enganar e nos manter seus jumentos espirituais.

    Ainda bem que nós estamos todos despertando para a realidade.

    Apóstolo TDS

  11. C M says:

    Google Translate
    Apostle TDS
    I speak some Portuguese because I learned from my mother. However, it is true that very interesting that organization to use these things against the parishioners. That’s why many who came of that religion.
    C M

    Apostolo TDS
    Eu falar um pouco de português porque eu aprendi de minha mãe. No entanto, se é verdade que muito interessante que a organização a utilizar essas coisas contra os paroquianos. É por isso que muitos que surgiram de que a religião.
    C M

  12. C M says:

    This just comes to show how unloving and ridiculous this religion is. And to that apologist Wilhelm, you know as well as most of us do, its preety much just JW’s who will pass through to the “New World” and those who never had a chance to “hear the message” who may pass and resurrect according to the WT teachings, think about all the people who don’t want to hear anything and their children. Even you can’t be so blind to see how wrong it is. Makes me remember something i use to tell people to convince them that there was no such thing as hell…”think about it, would a loving parent, whom is imperfect, place their own child’s hand on a burning stove? Then why would our loving heavenly father who is perfect?” Ask yourself “Will Jehovah truly kill all those people? Does it not say that he wans everyone to be ‘saved’?” Just give it some thought, you too will see how crazy the idea is, even with the thought of seing all these people be killed would be so awful to watch. Trust me you cannot deny what your heart tells you and what the facts are.

    C M

  13. Babs Mason says:

    This is really sick of the WT org to present pictures like this in their magazines. It is a wonder that someone doesn’t take them to court for exposing young children to images like this in pictures and words. Can’t imagine the nightmares it gives children. I know when I hear the word Armageddon I get sick to my stomach. I was enjoying a nondenominational church near me but have not been able to go back since the meeting where they were talking about sin and Armageddon. Thank you for this article to expose their lunacy. Bless you! :o)

  14. Martin says:

    Well at least they are consistent in one thing.

    I remember being about eight years old and hearing the story of Noah and the flood for the first time at the Group. I thought then that it was the most appalling story that I had ever heard.

    What did all those poor animals and plants do to deserve to die in such misery? What about the children? Why were they all drowned (Despite being a strong swimmer, I still have a fear of drowning to this day)? What had they done to deserve such a miserable death?

    Had I known about the issue at the time, I might well have wondered how could it be right for Jehovah to abort so many unborn children when Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that abortion is sinful?

    Even if God wanted to rip it up and start again, why choose such a cruel and destructive method when supposedly God is good, kind and merciful? It didn’t make sense.

    I didn’t get satisfactory answers from anyone just the advice to have faith that God knew what he was doing. I didn’t buy it then and I do not buy it now.

    I recognize this lust for violent revenge and the chance above all for ‘the faithful’ to get the opportunity to deliver the mother-of-all “I told you so!” to the rest of humanity, like Wilhelm above, for what it is; human beings at their worst. There is nothing ‘Divine’ about schadenfreude.

    Jehovah, as described in the Bible, is the creation of bloodthirsty, ignorant, bigoted men desperately trying to make sense of the world around them.

    If there is really a God, it ain’t him. If it is him, you can keep him! I’d rather be bird food than support such a tyrannical regime.

  15. Ocma says:

    I recall being taught that all who weren’t JW’s would be ‘destroyed’ at Armageddon. Didn’t matter if they had heard the ‘good news’ or not. Once Armageddon started, you were either for Jehovah, or considered against him. How is that fair?? Even babies – dead!
    I have been told to my face that the birds will eat the tongue out of my head as I rot on the ground – fortunately I am no longer controlled by fear, and this did not scare me back to the boring meetings.
    I like this – “I dimly recall reading that Jesus died for everyone, not just a splinter group from the 7th day Adventists.” – I’ll have to remember it so I can remind my mum when she gets on her high horse.

  16. Free Thinker/Non-JW says:

    @Martin
    I could not have said it any better!
    The many things you reference here, are EXACTLY the same things I find so fascinating about this cult and their leaders.
    The entire thing is like a wonderfully cheap thriller. From the made up name of God, to the “We have God tied up by his big toe, and only we get to have him, and play with him”. All of it. It is decadently entertaining, bizarre, and blatantly ridiculous.
    That said, joining this forum, and reading some of the comments from the former jws, has given me a tiny little window view, of the bizarre world inside the walls of the watchtower, and the walls of the jw gathering halls.

  17. Dynamo says:

    This is a common misconception that traveling overseers have been “gracious” enough to clarify.

    According to the organizations teachings, anyone not a JW or in the process of becoming a JW at the time of Armageddon will NOT survive, and will NOT be resurrected. Sorry Winhelm, but take a closer look at your literature. You are wrong.

    Wi

  18. Oh my, do I have to go through this again, living in a family where my wife is the only member, by golley more paxil, If I die who is going to clean her house and take care of her , please , this crap has been going on since 1969. How much more do we have to put up with. A question the members who are pedophiles and in good standing do they get to live.

  19. I remember vividly as a child my Dad telling me; “you’re going to lose your life at Armegedon son!” and that was over some trivial wrongdoing. I recall having sleepless nights as a child and worrying – but that aside it shows how the WT’s techniques have really worked on members and how they have even been past on from parents to children. JW’s are an elitist group and the Governing Body strongly influences their audience to believe that only JW’s will be blessed with life. In answer to that I often use the example of the evildoer who died alongside Jesus and ask – was he a baptised Witness when Jesus told him “you will be with me in paradise”? I’m an inactive Witness but thinking Witnesses including my wife don’t buy into what the WT say’s about who will survive God’s ‘cleansing’ and who will not. Was it not Jesus who said “do not judge” and yet it seems the WT has judged the fate of all the people on earth. Good article Cedars – thanks.

  20. Sue says:

    Someone mentioned that there must be laws against this language of hate. In the UK, its the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006.
    I wonder if this has ever been tested against those using inflammatory language against those who do not believe? Here is the Act. I have copied a few passages.
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/1/schedule
    There are various sections that could apply.
    A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred.

    In this Part “religious hatred” means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief.

    Offences by corporations

    (1)Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this Part and it is shown that the offence was committed with the consent or connivance of a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body, or a person purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.

    Possession of inflammatory material

    (1)A person who has in his possession written material which is threatening, or a recording of visual images or sounds which are threatening, with a view to—
    (a)in the case of written material, its being displayed, published, distributed, or included in a programme service whether by himself or another, or
    (b)in the case of a recording, its being distributed, shown, played, or included in a programme service, whether by himself or another,is guilty of an offence if he intends religious hatred to be stirred up thereby.

    In the USA, there is similar legislation and also separate State legislation.
    http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/our-work/fighting-discrimination/hate-crime-report-card/hate-crime-report-card-the-united-states/

    I wonder if this is why they introduced a separate Watchtower, so they could control the membership and try to argue that this was part of a programme of beliefs? But if the membership quote from the GB or the Magazines and use the language of hate against non-believers and a group they like to call apostates, then is it an offence according to law?
    There are defences for those exposing the language of hate.

    Does anyone know if this has been tested anywhere?

    Also where children are being exposed to this language of hate and images of destruction, has it been tested as child abuse?

    Sorry this was long.

  21. Belgian Bloke says:

    “There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation.” Watchtower 1993 Oct 1 p.19

    see http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/salvation-only-for-jehovahs-witnesses.php

  22. JohnnyRotten says:

    The JW message is virtually indistinguishable from the regular Christian doctrine. If anything it is more humane. At least at JW armageddon death is swift, whereas in ‘normal’ Christianity you are tormented and tortured for an eternity, so I fail to see really how all you people can having a go at the JW’s, as nutty as they are, for condemming us to death when over 60% of Americans believe we have worse in store anyway.

    • Faithful Witness says:

      Johnny Rotten: To the casual observer, the JW message appears as if it is “virtually indistinguishable” from the mainstream Christian message. However, when you actually look further into their doctrines and practices, they are actually pretty far from it.

      Examples include:
      - Followers believe that their Governing Body represents the exclusive channel to receive God’s message today. They call these 8 men the “Faithful and Discreet Slave.” They are instructed to obey and believe whatever belief, doctrinal change or edict that comes down from the Watchtower Society, through the channel of the Slave. Messages are sent DOWN the chain of command, and the rank and file JW has absolutely no power or say in any matters that affect the organization. The Organization makes all the decisions.
      - If you disobey or question anything that comes from the Society, you are reprimanded (at the least) or shunned (disfellowshipped). Your family is not allowed to speak to you, if you are disfellowshipped. From my understanding, you can be disfellowshipped, simply for disagreeing with any of their beliefs, even though they actually keep CHANGING their definition of “Truth.”
      - The followers of Jehovah’s Organization do not partake of communion, as Christ commanded. This is a big difference between JW’s and Christians. Only the anointed Christians are going to Heaven, so they are the only ones who eat the bread and drink the wine. That number is finite, exactly 144,000 people are going to Heaven. Those are the ones allowed to take part in the Lord’s Supper. The 7 million other sheep, simply pass the plate and reject Christ each year on the date of the “Memorial,” which is celebrated near Good Friday.
      - The JW belief that their door-to-door “preaching work” is essential for their salvation. They keep track of every hour, write their service hours on time cards and turn them in each month for credit with the organization. The Watchtower publishes an annual yearbook, showing the millions of hours they spend doing this work, and hold this up as proof that they are Jehovah’s chosen people.
      – No other church I have ever attended, told me to reject Christ during the communion service. They never asked me to calculate how much time I spend serving their organization. No one ever instructed me to serve a “slave,” giving that slave absolute power over my medical decisions, the information I am allowed to read, the questions I am allowed to ask, and which people are worthy of association.

      So while I actually kind of agree that slaughter and eternal and instant destruction would be a much more compassionate way to die, I wanted to point out that the JW’s actually have some pretty strong beliefs that do not concur with Christianity. They worship Jehovah and Jehovah’s name, to the point of idolatry. They deny that Jesus came here as “God with us.”

      I’m not even mentioning the trinity doctrine, or the death on the cross (or was it a tree). There are so many differences, and I keep finding more as I learn what the Bible actually says.

      I’m sure that any JW, who knows what their organization is actually teaching as “Truth,” would agree that they are not indistinguishable from other Christians. I tried to explain it, but it is so bizarre and confusing, that there really is no way to express JW doctrine, without sounding mentally unbalanced.

      The Watchtower is very powerful in the minds of JW’s, and they abuse this power daily.

  23. Sue says:

    JohnnyRotten
    Do two wrongs make a right? LOL

    I suppose there must be people who object to fundamental christian teachings and they have their own website and ways of exposing the stupidity.
    I for one am grateful, Cedars has created this site, as when I came out, it was not possible to publicly “out” the contradictions, as the internet did not exist.

  24. Reader says:

    Here is the way I try to explain the ramifications of Armageddon to a JW.

    Think of your closest neighbor. Do you think he actually understands the issue of universal sovereignty? Do you think a god of justice would execute someone based upon their choice in a matter that they clearly don’t understand? -typical response is that at the time they will know- How many years have you been preaching? Yet, after all that time, your own closest neighbor doesn’t understand yet. I thought Jehovah was blessing your efforts.

  25. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    When the birds circle and a group of former men and women come to kick butt, simply direct them to the passage in the Old Testament somewhere, that clearly states that God doesn’t expect the children to pay for the crimes of their parents. Something about someone else eating the bitter grapes and the child gagging. Can’t remember where it is, but I’m sure someone out there will remember it.

    It is a matter of justice.

    According to the WTBTS, Adam and Eve sinned. They chose to disobey. We, significantly, had NO CHOICE in their decision. And yet we die, and grow sick! Also, we are going to be executed at Armageddon.

    God should go and consult his legal team. As far as I’m concerned, passing on death to Adam and Eve’s offspring was contrary to his own laws. We are grimacing from Adam and Eve’s eating of bitter grapes.

    Can anyone let me know where this passage is? Am I making it up? It’s been over 20 years since I picked up a bible.

    So, there you have it. A biblical response to this doom and death, pedalled by the WTBTS.

    It is fundamentally unfair to single out individuals who, through sheer chance, happen to be born and be alive at the time of the end.

    God is a god of love. It is not loving to execute billions of people.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  26. Doublegame says:

    How about John 9:40,41 “….we are not blind also, are we?
    Jesus said to them:If you were blind (not understanding he was the messiah) YOU WOULD HAVE NO SIN. But now you say ‘We see’. Your sin remains.
    This scripture is very clear as to judging people that don’t
    know, or really understand what is what. They have no sin.

    Regarding ‘other’ religions, didn’t Jesus say in Mark 9:38-41
    “for whoever is not against us IS FOR US. He was speaking
    of all who believed in him, knowing full well that there would
    be many groups.

    Who will be saved? God wants everyone to be saved, and will read the potential in all hearts. Pro 21:2 also 24:12 says:
    “If you say”But we did not know about this,” Does not the one who examines hearts discern this? Yes, the One who
    watches you will know and repay each man according to his activity . (Yes, I’m quoting from the new bible!)

    But isn’t it clear that everyone who is trying to live well,
    Love and help others, wants to believe in God, although they are not sure exactly how, can be given whatever reward is in store for mankind?

    There are many other scriptures that prove that point.
    The GB have depicted God as a monster, and they keep ignoring Christ. No wonder people think we are not Christian.

    I have to have the strength to make the courageous decision Cesar made.
    After 50 years I have absolutely everything to lose.

    Thanks to the Watchtower’s misguided rules, the light at the
    end of the tunnel is another train coming.

    • Wilhelm says:

      In one of my previous comments I said exactly to same. How can people be killed by a loving GOD if they had no chance to learn about HIM and HIS laws. God will never killed such persons. But remember that GOD gave every person a conscious and when doing something and that little voice tell you not to do it and you still do it, then you sin. All of you must start reading your BIBLE. Stop living according to men’s traditions. That is why you’re dropouts and that is why you will be killed by GOD. Stop following men. The Bible tell you not to follow men. Why do you still do it. Why don’t you study the BIBLE. One thing is for sure. You all will be dust on the surface of the earth as the BIBLE foretell.

      • Faithful Witness says:

        Wilhelm: Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

        I assume you are a JW. I have a question, and wonder if you can help me answer it. Do Jehovah’s Witnesses follow instructions given to them by the Governing Body, or do they follow the instructions of the great teacher, Jesus Christ?

        Are you an active publisher for the Watchtower Society, in good standing? Do you report your hours to the organization on a time card each month?

        This requirement is in direct opposition to what Jesus told those who had ears to hear Him, during the sermon on the mount. Matthew 6:1-5. By reporting your righteousness to men, you are not following your BIBLE, but following the men in charge of an organization.

        • Wilhelm says:

          To report is exactly what Jesus told his disciples to do. In Matt 10 he sent his disciples to go and preach and in Matt 11:4 he said “go and report to John what you are hearing and seeing”. So when you report you are doing what Jesus ask from you. Not what the GB asking.

      • April says:

        Wilhelm, Youre obviously angry because we’re making sense, and the only thing you can do…in true witness. fashion, is say ….we follow the bible, and youre going to be destroyed. The fact is, the witnesses Dont follow the bible , and they are better at following men…the “governing body” than anyone else…even though theyve prophesied falsely all down through their history.

  27. It’s the same old story they are expecting their “flock” to swallow. “Join us or die”, yet Jesus himself said “Come to ME”. He came preaching the spirit of love and personal relation with God, not fear or punishment.

  28. JB says:

    I agree with many comments here, at least they raise serious questions about the criteria for “being saved”, but how would you understand Matthew 7:13,14 ?

    Even though being part of an organization might not be a valid criteria given the arguments made here, doesn’t this still give an idea that there are high standards to consider ?

    Maybe, as the verse above says, it’s really hard to get there …

    • John Baptist says:

      At JB, and this is fundamentally why there are some 8 million JW’S serving out of fear because the GB(Men) are using scriptures like Matthew 7:13,14 to put fear in them that if they don’t serve in their supposed God appointed organization then there is no possible hope for them anywhere else. They are preaching exclusivity to their ranks in regard to who they think they(GB) are. Jesus often spoke in parables to help his disciples get the meaning of his message. Often times they were not literal in nature but conveyed a meaning for the reader to interpret in order to understand his message that he was bringing to the earth thousands of years ago. Many times people do not read the context surrounding a specific scripture and really don’t properly get the meaning of that one particular scripture. Have you heard the saying it was taken out of context? But lets suppose for a moment that we still go with your understanding or that of the GB who you listen to as the authority on the meaning and go with the understanding that many will die, Well then did Jesus say before or after those scriptures that we need to follow a organized body of religion in order to gain life? And if he did wouldn’t you think he would clearly and specifically tell us who they were? There were many prophecies in the old testament that pointed towards Jesus coming to the Earth that were fulfilled. Don’t you think with God’s foreknowledge of our day that he would make sure he made it clear through his word the Bible century’s ago what organized religion is really his Channel today for mankind?
      Well guess what? He did make that very clear at John 14:6 Where it says “Jesus is the way and the TRUTH” No one else is mentioned there, no religion,man or otherwise. Just Jesus himself. So why is it then that your founding father a 7th day Adventist thinker caught up in times,facts and figures exclaimed himself in his Studies of the Scriptures that “Organization is highly unnecessary” When what he started came to be what it is today a 1 billion dollar plus a year Publishing company?
      So you see the one TRUE Religion is each and everyone’s own personal relationship with God and his son Jesus our Redeemer.
      I remember long ago as a young impressionable teenager a Circuit overseer stating in his talk “that don’t be surprised if after the great day of God all mighty you see some of the folks in the kingdom hall not there but some people out there in the world you would have never thought to be there are there on the other side of Armageddon” To me this circuit overseer was perhaps interjecting his own thoughts based on what he thought rather then what the talk outline said. Back then there was a little more Latitude given to a public speaker in his delivery outside of following the talk outline provided by the GB. And rightly so as it is God who will judge us if were worthy of life or death, not a manmade organization. As far as your higher standards to consider? Its Gods word alone and not some material mis interpreted produced by men that is the ultimate standard.
      Remember it was your founding father Charles Taze Russell who exclaimed exclusivity in regard to his studies of the scriptures volumes in saying ” If one was to stop reading them, then you would fall into spiritual darkness. “But if you were to read them alone without reading the bible you would be in spiritual light” He actually went on to say “if you read the Bible alone within 2 years you would fall into spiritual darkness” So you see right from the beginning of the Jehovah’s Witness religion your founder has indoctrinated his followers into thinking he is above God and his Word the Bible!! To God and me this is clear Blasphemy!!
      Your higher standards begin with you and your own personal relationship with God. Not some time slip turned in at the end of the month.
      What makes it hard to get there is our own imperfections which we are reminded of every day. But as Jesus said I want Love not Sacrifice. He gave us the two Greatest Commandments to live by while we await his coming Kingdom.
      Obviously JB you are commenting on this site because you have Doubts and rightly so. We all did but being out from under that religion allows you to really explore the real Truth and that is Jesus and the exact reason he came to this earth in the first place. We really are not Apostates because we believe in Christ we only deny the deity’s of Men who want you to follow them exclusively. I wish You well in Finding Yourself.

  29. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    JB, if it is indeed hard to get there, than what use was this supposed ransom sacrifice? Adam passed sin on to all, so the corresponding sacrifice must also be for all. Otherwise it’s not a ransom. As soon as provisos and caveats are introduced, then the supreme sacrifice that is central to Christianity is diluted.

    As a non believer, I must say that all of this talk of ransoms and sacrifices is very distasteful to me.

    It was also a problem for me when I was a JW.

    Humans have no frame of reference for this kind of justice. The closest we have I suppose is a parent child relationship. Even this is problematic, because no loving parent would act as God has done. No parent would punish the grandchildren for what the child decided to do. No parent would expect an innocent to die to atone for someone else’s sin.

    I reject utterly the notion of a ransom. Please see my previous post for what I see as a biblical rebuttal of the whole notion.

    It is significant that Jesus said why he died. He died to save his friends. It’s that simple. Any further significance has been added after the fact.

    If there is a God, which I doubt, then why would he punish the innocent? Why not just forgive us and help us to be the best people we can be? That’s what I would do.

    There is no scientific backing for the Creation myth. There is no evidence for an Adam and Eve. No trace of the anti delluvian men of old have been found. People did not live into the multi hundreds and they never have.

    I do. to wish to preach atheism. I am merely trying to ask people to view this whole issue from a human point of view, and apply modern human laws to this oldest and most contentious legal dispute in history. Does anyone own us? Does anyone have the right to dictate how we should live, regardless of the laws applied? Were we created to worship God? Should we be able to decide what is right and wrong?

    These are profound philosophical questions that humanity has been asking for a very long time indeed.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  30. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    Sorry, that should have read I don’t want to preach atheism!

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  31. Wilhelm says:

    Answer – How can you or anybody judge a person who did not received the knowledge to live a life according to the Bible. If a person live for his entire life without a Bile or any person to teach him, where does the Bible say that a loving God will just destroy such a person. (Forget about what people told you) I am talking about what the Bible say and I only believe in what I read in it. People will have a chance to show how they believe in and according to their choice they will be take away from the face of the earth. It’s not new light. Just read your Bible with understanding and forget to follow any person.

    • Cedars says:

      So let me get this straight. Watchtower says you need to respond to the preaching work to survive Armageddon, to the point where Jehovah is said to be delaying Armageddon so that more people can hear the “good news.” But you claim that because this isn’t specifically spelled out in the Bible you can ignore the disturbing fatalism of Watchtower and focus on the pleasant stuff. How convenient for you. It’s what is known as worshipping “a la carte.”

      • Wilhelm says:

        Please let me have a copy of the Watchtower or any written material that say a person will survive only if they listen or respond to the preaching work. In countries where the Bible is forbidden and a person have never seen or used a Bible. Where in the Bible does it say GOD will destroy such a person. Just give me that verse please. Everybody teaches GOD is LOVE. Why will he then destroy a person that was withheld from taking a stand. Please supply me with prove of your statements you make. PLEASE

        • Cedars says:

          You need me to give you references for where it says that Jehovah is delaying Armageddon so that more people can hear the good news? What’s the matter, don’t you have Watchtower Library? If the preaching work isn’t linked to people surviving Armageddon, then why do you think we do it?

  32. JB says:

    Thank you so much Excelsior, there are several very interesting points you mentioned, about which I have been wondering indeed. Creation account is one of those and I read some quite interesting material a short while ago, which was written by a scientist. I’ll come back and write more in detail about this and concerning the points you mentioned.

    I also agree with your point about viewing things from a human point of view. We have 5 senses and a brain and heart, this should help us to get somewhere to find a conviction, atheism or other.

  33. Doublegame says:

    I mean posted.

  34. JB says:

    Excelsior, actually talking about the high standards, I’d like to give an example : A while ago I was reading Ephesians 4:31, which is about abandoning anger, etc. I must admit, those words don’t really describe me :-). The question I had is, if I lived in a perfect paradise on earth, would my temperament really fit in there, and would that place continue to be perfect ? This is just an example but what I mean is that we sometimes come across people with exceptional character and we may happen to say, wow, it would take me quite some effort to show similar behaviour. And it’s true, despite there are many great things, world is not a happy place to live. We’re not surrounded with calm people acting in peace, altruism, honesty and common sense. In my humble opinion, it doesn’t take a lot of wrong input to destroy the peace in a group of people.

    This is why, if we assume what we read in the bible is true, my logic says the objective should be that the ones who would survive Armageddon should be people trying to move in this direction, at the very least. I don’t have any specific conviction as to what profile of people should be “saved”.

    Regarding the points you raised, like why there should be the concept of ransom, and why the grand-children should suffer because of the sons’ faults … those are questions for me too. I just think I haven’t dug enough to form my opinion.

    Regarding the creation account, although I’m far from being a science enthousiast, I found some recent reading very interesting. The book “Genesis Enigma” written by Andrew Parker describes the stages by which the earth was formed and he says, although it was not the initial intent, parallels were found between the scientific account and the order in which the creation account was described in Genesis 1. He then goes on talking about the timelines where the oldest texts were found (dead see scrolls, masoretes’ works) and claim that compared to scientific discoveries’ timeline, it would be impossible to write the events in this order during the time the bible creation account was written, if it was solely based upon “knowledge”.

    I’m really not a science genius but I pretty much enjoyed the reading and it’s quite thought provoking.

    BTW, I’m also an ex-JW but at this point I endeavour remaining neutral with regards to the WT organization in general and also towards any counter-ideas. I try to see both the positive and the negative and above all, I’d like to keep an open mind and try to find the truth in all this. This is why I may be defending some standpoint at some time, but this is only because of my opinion about the subject, not just because it’s about an organization.

  35. Martin says:

    Thank you, Free Thinker/Non-JW, for your kind words.

    @excelsior, formerly known as George

    “Even this is problematic, because no loving parent would act as God has done. No parent would punish the grandchildren for what the child decided to do.”
    —–

    Noah, God’s chosen one not only condemned his own grandson, Ca’naan to a life of slavery, he condemned all of his descendents too! His heinous crime?

    Ca’naan’s dad, Ham, saw a drunken Noah in the buff.

    Er … what exactly does that have to do with Ca’naan? You tell me.

    Genesis 9:18-27 New World Translation

    PS Did you know that the first mention of the word slave in the bible is the passage in question where Noah invents this despicable practice for his grandson’s line?

  36. Wilhelm says:

    I answered as requested but not post appear.

    thanks

  37. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    JB, the order of life as written in the account of Genesis could just be a lucky coincidence!

    We still do not have a full understanding of just how life began and how it diversified, as we rely upon the fossil record, where not all things are fossilised.

    Your point about bad apples is valid. But remember, we’re talking about a deity that is omniscient and omnipotent. He can allegedly read the heart of people. Surely he can aid folks to get along better without resorting to killing them? Most people who commit crimes are suffering from many ailments. These spring from many sources. A loving God can and should help people to overcome their problems and be the best that they can be.

    Now, for someone like me who no longer believes, I still face the same problem. Humanity has developed laws and ways to enforce them. It isn’t a perfect system, but it works most of the time.

    We also can help stop problems by providing a good education, adequate food, water and shelter, a sense of dignity, adequate healthcare and a society that values positive behaviours and challenges negative ones.

    It’s a long road and it won’t be easy. But I have faith in humanity. We’ve only been around for a few hundred thousand years and yet we have accomplished so, so much. I choose to believe in humanity’s ability to heal itself.

    Sure, we won’t get to live forever and cuddle pandas all day, but we will get to live a long, healthy life.

    Jesus was right about insisting on a personal moral code. He was right about showing compassion, and not falling into the trap of dehumanising those who disagree with us. He left us much to ponder. But he also left us with a challenge – do better!

    Jesus was not right, for example, to insist on adultery being the only criterion for a divorce. Way off beam on that one.

    He would be overjoyed to see how we have tried to do better. Modern society does not accept slavery under any circumstances. We do not discriminate against a whole raft of people who were formerly seen as evil. We have tried to do better. That is a fitting tribute to a good man.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  38. April says:

    I remember a talk at an assembly once, where the speaker said that all who arent a witness of Jehovah, were like walking skeletons. He went on to ask.. You wouldnt make friends with skeletons would you, you wouldnt go to a graveyard to pick a mate would you? I was aggrevated and offended at this statement, but I wasnt shocked. I was a baptised witness for 27 years, and heard statements like this my whole life, until I began to seriously doubt, and did deep research into this “loving” organization. What I found was unbelievable, and I stopped attending meetings. This organization is the most judgemental one I know of. Your opening statement using 2 Pet. 2:22 shows you have the same attitude. Ive heard the society misuse that scripture many times, just as you have. I am glad to see you on here though.(even though we all know youre not supposed to be..associating with us apostates and all (-:) I hope something you read will make you REALLY think…for yourself.

    • Wilhelm says:

      It does not put you on the right track when you are a Jehovah’s Witness. But have to live Bible truths. So no one can say he will be saved because he is a JW. It doesn’t work like that. But JW’s try and live according to Bbiel standards and therefor all other religion is false and will be destroyed. Thanks

      • April says:

        According to the organization, and THEIR interpretation….all other religion is false, and they are the only “true” religion. REALLY?!? (-: What would you expect them to say?

  39. Martin says:

    ” I am talking about what the Bible say and I only believe in what I read in it. ”

    ——

    Wilhelm, I am posting a link to a wonderful free book. It is the transcript of a lecture given by R. G. Ingersoll in 1894 on the subject of the origin and contents of the Holy Bible. It is short (about 30 minutes to read) but is as powerful and relevant now as it was then.

    I guess you are here because in some way you care about the the truth, so I hope you have the courage to read it with an open mind.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/37703/37703-h/37703-h.htm

    Good luck.

  40. Mike says:

    Cedars is right, Wilhelm. What you are saying is NOT in harmony with Watchtower teaching. It has long said that baptism is the mark of salvation. That is the reason JW’s give to do the preaching work.

  41. CAMOKO says:

    hi Sue! I will add this: Ignorance, indoctrination and mind control produce fanatics. Wilhelm is just a blind fanatic of the watchtowwer, the religious version of communism.

  42. Caribbean Man says:

    Excelsior, formerly known as George, that passage you’re thinking about is Ezekiel 18:1-20.

    “It is fundamentally unfair to single out individuals who, through sheer chance, happen to be born and be alive at the time of the end.”

    You’re so right about this! According to JW theology, a wicked man can die pre-armageddon at a ripe old age in his sleep and not ever be called to account for his deeds since he would never be resurrected. But another equally wicked man who happens to live until armageddon has to face a vicious, traumatic death. The former wicked man is let off the hook in a manner not unlike the way Enoch was divinely euthanized, while the latter has to be torn from the earth. Where’s the consistency? Where’s the impartial justice?

    JW theology is so twisted!

  43. Faithful Witness says:

    Good analogy, with the Hitchcock movie. I will be taking a close look at this publication.

  44. C M says:

    “There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation.” Watchtower 1993 Oct 1 p.19

    “Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

    “Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

    “If we stop actively supporting Jehovah’s work, then we start following Satan. There is no middle ground.” Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.18

    “But Jehovah’s servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things.” Watchtower 2007 Dec 15 p.14

    “What will happen to young children at Armageddon? The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges. However, the Bible does show that God views the young children of true Christians as “holy.” (1 Cor. 7:14) It also reveals that in times past when God destroyed the wicked he likewise destroyed their little ones.” Reasoning from the Scriptures pp.47-48

    These are just a few Wilhelm, they are things published by the watchtower within my lifetime and that I myself have used, if you want to turn a blind eye to the facts, to truth about the truth, to the lies we have been taught by the organization that have no valid biblical supporting reference, to the harmful practices of the organization then that is your problem not ours we don’t care if you want to continue being a JW I mean some of us still are but in Name only because we have a mind of our own and are aware of what is truly going on and will not let this religion hurt us anymore. I started like you, defending the JW’s eventually I faded because i realized that though some of the stuff some in the exJW community say is absolute baloney or just seems so bitter and angry, I too could not deny the facts that I had my doubts and agreed with them on many points. All we do is state facts, it is up to you to decide what you will do with your life as for us we are happy where we are at and what we write is therapy for us and to raise awareness. We are not anti JW, we are here to help those who want it and need it.

    CM

  45. thinkinghard says:

    Martin, all I can say is wow! What a profound and thought-provoking article. Thank you for sharing it.

  46. jan says:

    I am going to report the article in the watchtower study Feb 15th article( w14 02/15-E Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania) to my government on the grounds that i am classified as a shunned member of this cult and this is a direct threat to me. It is inciting serious contempt toward me and those that have no idea this is what this crazy cult preaches.

    Main article: Anti-Discrimination Act 1977

    In 1989, by an amendment to the Anti-Discrimination Act 1977, New South Wales became the first state to make it unlawful for a person, by a public act, to incite hatred towards, serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of a person or group on the grounds of race. The amendment also created a criminal offence for inciting hatred, contempt or severe ridicule towards a person or group on the grounds of race by threatening physical harm (towards people or their property) or inciting others to threaten such harm. Prosecution of the offence of serious vilification requires consent from the Department of Attorney General and Justice and carries a maximum penalty of a $10,000 fine or 6 months imprisonment for an individual—$100,000 for a corporation. An offence has not yet been prosecuted under this law.[3]

  47. jan says:

    it also includes hate speech toward individuals regardless of race :
    Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001
    A person must not, on the ground of the religious belief or activity of another person or class of persons, engage in conduct that incites hatred against, serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule of, that other person or class of persons.
    Note: “engage in conduct” includes use of the internet or e-mail to publish or transmit statements or other material

  48. 70wksofyrs says:

    Martin said…
    “I didn’t get satisfactory answers from anyone just the advice to have faith that God knew what he was doing. I didn’t buy it then and I do not buy it now.”

    Yeah I resonate with that prov 3:5,6 Si annoying and unsatisfying. Then in the BTeach book, Ch1 always ask questions until you find satisfying answers.

    Cedars, This is a lunacy, you are doing well. Keep it up
    70wks…

  49. Dave Brown says:

    Hi John, I wouldn’t ban Wilhelm, he does a great job of illustrating the poisonous mindset within the WT. Loads of my friends used to take the view that they were inoffensive and well mannered, they are shocked by these outbursts and are changing their opinion.

    • Cedars says:

      Thanks Dave. I’m just keeping an eye on him for now, because it seems obvious he’s confused and doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. I will, however, need to take action regardless if he continues to be insulting.

  50. JB says:

    Excelsior, actually what I found really interesting was some particular details about different phases of the creation. They were indeed quite specific in their details as well as the order in which they were described. Eventually, like you said, beyond theories, we don’t know much and maybe, we’re also influenced by our convictions to interpret the scientific data.

    What you mentioned about the human efforts is also interesting. I think indeed, many exceptional people influenced masses and brought very positive ideas. However, it seems to me like the current difficulties, violence, and anything “bad” is the result of a “system” rather than a group of individuals. My personal impression is that there should be a superior force to us, in order to bring the real peace and justice. For instance, if someone murders a person, killing him would only generate an impression of justice but no real justice. The real justice would be giving back the life to the murdered one, in a hypothetical situation. Without this, it would only be a lose-lose situation. Also, this would require humans to impose rules, and that looks like a kindergarten, where some of the kids would assume governance of the whole, rather than trusting things to the qualified personel.

    It’s just an opinion of course, I see that there are very honest efforts towards what you described, but I believe that we’re all limited by our weaknesses. Someone better than us would be needed. That’s just my opinion of course.

    Peace

  51. Mark says:

    [off-topic comment removed]

  52. C M says:

    I agree with you, I was like him once, commenting on videos and on many exJW websites, thinking I had an answer for everything, eventually i found out I had doubts too, a 3rd generation JW, I have now faded and am much happier now, i think many of those trolling will also come to find out that the reason they are reading “apostate” information is because they too are starting to think for themselves.

    CM

  53. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    Thanks, JB. I appreciate an open and honest discussion, it’s such a treat to read comments that are genuinely trying to move a discussion along.

    Your value system is based on two assumptions:

    1. There is a superior force out there somewhere

    2. We are somehow immature, and incapable of ruling ourselves.

    What if there isn’t a superior force out there? Let’s face it, there is no evidence yet of life of any kind existing elsewhere. I think we will find that life is actually common but it’s only a hunch. Even so, there is no evidence of angels or demons or any such personage.

    Are we really children? Should we expect a grown up to come and solve our problems? As far as we can tell, we are on our own in that regard. I would argue that human beings wrote the bible, and it’s amazing that a Bronze Age people could come up with a moral code that had the basics intact. However, most peoples who settled in one place eventually came up with property rights, and some kind of justice system. The Jewish laws are not completely different from the peoples who lived around them.

    This is why I encourage everyone to think about how they will live a moral, meaningful life now. There is no proof for the bible’s message, so we have a choice.

    We can decide to follow the spirit of those biblical laws, and, when necessary, have the courage to reach beyond them. To say no to discrimination and reach out to our fellow humans.

    It is not easy! It’s taken humanity a long struggle to achieve our tolerant society. We can all help praise the spirit of Jesus’ teachings by trying to get along together with dignity and respect.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  54. Sue says:

    I am not sure why but I felt Wilhelm was a woman?

  55. Doggie says:

    Great article, but it left me with one question. Have these birds been breeding since 1878 when the ‘present system’ was going to end?

    And, more to the point, what will these birds be doing when 2014 and 2034 go by without any opportunity to take out a few apostates?

  56. whatevs says:

    The only thing they care about is their own vindication. They look forward to billions dying so they can stand over them and say “Ha ha, told you so!” Loving religion, my fat arse. If I tried to warn a neighbor about a faulty railing on the stairs and he ignored me, I wouldn’t crow about how right I am to anyone and everyone that listens. If he fell to his death I would be sick to my stomach, not happy to shake my fist at his corpse. They are one of the most self-involved, self-righteous bunch of people I’ve ever had the displeasure of knowing.

    • Faithful Witness says:

      Whatevs: I can see your point, and I agree that JW’s do come across as self-righteous, and have a “holier than thou” attitude, when it comes to many things. However, I don’t think it is fair or kind to assume they will all be gleeful over watching their loved ones destroyed. I would expect that many, if not most, of the JW’s whose family members are slaughtered, will feel the worst kind of mourning over our death.
      (At least for a little while. The article does state that it will take awhile for earth to be restored to perfection.)
      Being on the receiving end of some unfair treatment right now, I have to remind myself to forgive them. I am no better, when I judge them and convict them of something they have not yet done.

  57. Martin says:

    @thinkinghard

    I am glad you found it beneficial. I am a huge fan of the works of R G Ingersoll. He was a very popular orator in the nineteenth century and his thinking was way ahead of his time. I believe the complete works of Ingersoll are also available at Gutenberg.net and are very rewarding reading.

    Pertinent to this article, his essay “What must we do to be saved” is also in my opinion a work of profound genius.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38801/38801-h/38801-h.htm#link0014

    Regards

    Martin

  58. whatevs says:

    Faithful, I would agree with you except that from my 35+ years of experience “in,” I would say the vast majority of JWs I met were waiting for Armageddon for their own vindication and nothing else. They seriously could not wait for people to die so they could be proven “right.” It had nothing to do with Jehovah’s vindication or wickedness, but was really personal. One example, a woman had a problem with the divorce paperwork with her ex-husband, and thought something was unfair. “Oh well he’s going to die at Armageddon anyway.” I remember hearing that repeated by so many. Problem with the boss, with a neighbor; “They’re going to die at Armageddon.” Someone slams a door in your face in service? “Well we know who’s going to die at Armageddon.” Some even said it with a smile. Sick.

  59. whatevs says:

    *Footnote … maybe others had different experiences or grew up with nicer Witnesses than I did, but I just ran into that attitude so often, it’s really sickening to look back on it and then hear it repeated from the WT. I think the only ones I knew who didn’t relish the whole Armageddon thing were those who had family who left or were DF’d. So odd to look at things from both sides now.

    • Faithful Witness says:

      You know what? You are probably right, judging from your descriptions. I definitely have not had even a sample of the true hurt that this organization can cause. I was never a member, so never got to hear those comments actually come out of someone’s mouth.

      It is shocking and sad, to hear the things people will say, just to try to make themselves feel justified and privileged. Their preaching work is fruitless, and they really have so few ways to vent their frustrations. Comforting yourself, by judging others, is a natural human behavior. It is appalling what this organization does to people’s minds, let alone their families.

      They are planning and anticipating devastation, and loving it. The more I think about your comment, the more I realize how true it probably is. I am trying hard not to believe my family feels that way, but that isn’t really for me to worry about.

  60. Ocma says:

    Wilhelm – Many people try to live their lives in a ‘christian’ way, JW’s are not the only people trying to live up to ‘God’s Standards’. Only JW’s think they are as “good” as they profess to be. People in the real world aren’t sucked in by what JW’s say about themselves.
    I for one share the thoughts of others and do not care for ‘God’, he seems really mean and petty, goes round the long way just to prove a point and makes a lot of people suffer along the way.

  61. Rob says:

    Someone is missing the point of Christianty.

    • Faithful Witness says:

      Rob: If you are referring to me, “missing the point of Christianity,” I’m sorry if send a confusing message. I am not defending Christianity, or any other “religion.” I listened to the JW point of view for quite some time, and freely admit that I am still in recovery from their false teachings.

      Please, enlighten me. (If you click on “reply” inside your email, it seems to work. You need to select the notifications for updates to this thread, or else you just add your comment to the list of comments on this blog).

  62. thinkinghard says:

    Martin, I couldn’t wait to read the next article at the link you provided. Gone was all thought of work, eat, sleep. I am on page 33 but just took a quick break to thank you once again. Cedars article highlights the fear that the GB have drilled into us. No-one wants to be devoured by greedy birds and to this day I’m apprehensive of birds flapping around me partly because this scripture was read to me as a child in preparation of a study, probably a watchtower study, and I’ve never forgotten it. Once again, children will be viewing this “Watchtower” article and so the fear for them begins…so sad and so very, very wrong. I’m not able to express myself as eloquently as some of the persons who comment on Cedars articles and for that I apologize but I can say thank you to those of you who do and to those, like Martin, who gently point the way to mental freedom.

  63. Faithful Witness says:

    Barbara: When we studied with the JW’s, the elder who was teaching us cornered my husband alone and said that very thing to him. “Either you make some ‘progress’ here, or you sentence your entire family to destruction.” That was pretty much the end of our examination of the JW’s as a choice for our family.

  64. Faithful Witness says:

    JB: I’d like to address your question about Matthew 7:13-14. That is an excellent question!
    I thought about this one a lot, especially when the JW’s brought it up during our bible study together. I have a couple of questions about that myself, as I am currently studying the book of Matthew.

    What evidence do the JW’s have, that theirs is the narrow path Jesus is talking about? (read surrounding verses for clues)

    After reading the entire chapter, a few things stand out to me. Taken in context, I do not find the Watchtower Society’s teachings and practices will qualify them to be defining that narrow road for their 8 million chosen people.

    v1-5: “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
    v12: “treat others as we expect to be treated.” (that includes people you don’t like, and that don’t agree with you)
    v15: “Watch out for false prophets that come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inside they are ravenous wolves.” (false predictions made by men who claim to speak for God)
    v16-20: “By their fruits you will recognize them.” (Look at their own yearbook for statistics).
    v24-27: “The wise man built his house upon a rock.”

    If you read the entire sermon on the mount, you will also see in Matthew 6, where he warns the people: “Do not practice your righteousness in front of men in order to be observed by them; otherwise you will have no reward with your father in the heavens.”

    How does this coincide with the JW requirement of turning in time cards each month, to get credit for the service hours performed? What if you don’t turn in a card, and tell them you will practice your righteousness in secret, as Jesus instructed? What will they say?

    I am not defending any particular religion, but do have serious questions about the claims the Watchtower Society makes about itself. Their narrow path could easily be leading off into destruction.

  65. LAC says:

    Are those pedophiles in the KH going to be bird food too? Will they be plucked from service as those who will be plucked from their jobs to face destruction and be bird food?

  66. LAC says:

    Just bought my turkey and ham. I had better fatten up before the birds eat me. Just think I’m eating a bird for Thanksgiving and soon them birds will be eating me-sweet revenge I guess!

  67. LAC says:

    I have many questions as well.
    1.) How could Jesus approve of the WT in 1919 when they were celebrating Christmas and other holidays, smoking and drinking?
    2.) Why was Ester allowed to create a holiday called Purim(which is still celebrated today) and Jehovah allowed it?
    3.) How is it that pedophiles are allowed in the organization even being “appointed by Holy Spirit” to certain positions, while practicing pedophilia?
    4.) How is it that Jehovah’s Holy Spirit is upon an organization that has falsely predicted Armageddon and put dates on the time of the end when the Bible clearly states that neither the son nor the Angels know but only the Father?
    5.) How can “truth” come out of a lie by falsely predicting the end of the world through the practice of pyrimidology?
    6.) How can truth come from a Kook like Russel who called himself the 7th Angel of Laodicia? Who said the scriptures predicted that he and his wife would separate? Who compromised his faith?

    Does Jehovah’s Holy Spirit make mistakes?
    I have a ton of questions that must be answered before I am eaten by the birds on that fateful day!

  68. LAC says:

    Did Noah bring termites on the Ark?

    • Faithful Witness says:

      Termites on the ark? Good question!

      Ask a JW. I’m sure the reply will be, “I will have to research that question and get back to you!” Hahaha.

  69. JB says:

    Hi Excelsior,

    Many thanks, I also enjoy exhanging thoughts and understanding different points of view. I’m really happy to see that some lingering questions are being asked by others too !

    Yes, the concept about God is simply outside of our physical abilities to comprehend. Thinking about this, I believe I simply chose to believe it (maybe because I was born as a JW as well). Of course, I think there are many things seems to support this, but I think it’s quite influenced by my “starting point”, and I also find your questions about the origin of the Bible very relevant and actually such questions occur to me as well. Like, what about the far-eastern beliefs or any other civilization, their beliefs and traditions, philosophy and moral approach which is essentially not too different.

    The impression I often get is, best I can do is just to keep looking for answers. I think for some, my lifetime won’t allow me find any, and for others maybe the light will get brighter (not to be confused with the “new light” :-)).

    Cheers

  70. Dynamo says:

    Hi Cedars,

    Something just occurred to me from my study with JWs and time attending meetings. They have redefined the term “fear”.

    True definiton: Fear is an emotion induced by a perceived threat which causes entities to quickly pull far away from it and usually hide. It is a basic survival mechanism occurring in response to a specific stimulus, such as pain or the threat of danger.

    JW definition: In Biblical usage the fear of God is a positive concept. (Isaiah 11:3) It is a profound reverence and deep respect for God, a strong desire not to displease him. (Psalm 115:11) It includes acceptance of and strict adherence to God’s moral standards and a desire to live by what God says is right or wrong. One reference work points out that such a wholesome fear expresses “a fundamental attitude toward God that leads to wise behavior and the avoidance of every form of evil.” Appropriately, God’s Word tells us: “The fear of Jehovah is the start of wisdom.”—Proverbs 9:10.

    I’m sure other Christian denominations share this definition, but I thought it was noteworthy to include in the discussion, considering the fear mongering tone of many of their publications and teaching methods.

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2006565

  71. JB says:

    Hi Faithful Witness,

    Yes, those points you mentioned and quite a few others I come across, raise serious questions about the WT organization’s approach and all the things I heard back in time about the “people who’ll be destroyed”. Let me also add Matthew 18:6 about “making one’s brother stumble” of which, I unfortunately came across a number of examples. Probably the elder who talked to your husband didn’t do much good about his enthousiasm to continue towards being more involved.

    I find the idea of being saved conditioned to being part of an organization quite disturbing. This brings so many questions that no one can really answer. And, what if there is another religion observing the same rules, which would make them an apostate only if they turned a page of Watchtower magazine ?

    To me, this scenario presents a lot of flaws. I of course wouldn’t like to judge anyone, but I have seen quite some Witnesses with whom I can’t really imagine feeling good, even in a perfect world (or maybe it’s me who’s really wrong :-)) In exchange, there are people who really care about others, they honestly try to live a decent life, and they aren’t Witnesses. What about them ? Some of them think they found their way, some of them are disappointed about religion and they don’t care, and some others just struggle finding their way around.

    I like sticking to Matthew 22:37-40. It makes me think, it gives the whole picture : Knowing our Creator and honoring Him, and living a decent life. I think there are many people that live a decent life, but the first commandment, knowing our Creator, and finding the truth, is a deep subject and a huge task. It takes a life doing this.

    I don’t want to exclude that being a JW as a way to reach this objective, but the “exclusivity” concept doesn’t seem possible to admit for a number of reasons, mainly because it doesn’t put everyone facing the same level of opportunities to progress, or even discover, the truth.

    To tell you honestly, I think we only have some guidelines, but anything concrete about how things would unfold seems like speculation to me. All I like to say is, whatever happens, considering that God is love, should happen the right way. This is what I’d like to believe.

  72. Martin says:

    @thinkinghard

    I am so glad that you have found value in the cited texts.

    I usually keep a few copies lying around for occasions where door to door preachers offer to give me a bible study. I always agree on condition that they first read “What must we do to be saved” and then get back to me and explain where Ingersoll has got it so terribly wrong.

    A few take it with them but only one has ever returned, a young man who came back months later to tell me that he was shocked by the contents but he couldn’t deny the logic and the truth contained therein. We are still in touch and I am pleased to say that he is no longer trapped within this pernicious organization.

    If you have the time, I would very much be interested in what you think about it, when you have had time to finish and reflect upon Ingersoll’s thesis.

    Take care

    Martin

    PS Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason is a book that I am sure you will appreciate but it is a much longer read … although very entertaining as well as thought-provoking.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3743

    Good luck!

  73. I am connected to the organization through my family, as an observer I am always concerned about all the tragic events that are always occurring, But, have always noticed that “money” is always some where around. The big 1975 rip off of millions of dollars “remember” then on and on and on every occasion . The ‘Orgization” needs bucks to do Jehovahs works. I thinks this is a side show to keep the people from asking ,just where in the hell is all this money going. Yes billions, hedge funds,off shore accounts.. Change the subject no one cares if a bunch of low lifes that you wouldn’t invite to your house for dinner would get to heaven. Here is the thought of the day “ask the big “8″ to account for all the money and share the info with the organization.Yes put all the info out in the public all the pedophile cases.Law suits in the works. Have open discussion with the congregation . Yes,yes and all the affinity crimes occurring in the “Organization”. Yes theres lots of that,where people come to pray with people they prey upon. Yes , lesson for the day put affinity crimes/Jehovah witness in your search bar and get ready for a schock. Remember is all a distraction .

  74. Questionall451 says:

    I remember a C.O. giving a talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. He talked about how the “fire” that rained down was loosely packed sulfur that would splatter upon impact. He made the comment that perfect aim wasn’t necessary, if the burning balls of sulfur just hit anywhere in the vicinity of the wicked men it would splatter and stick like napalm on anyone it hit. They would try to wipe it off and only smear it on their skin even more. I’m sure this wasn’t in his “outline” but it sure scared the hell outta me.

  75. GAMMA says:

    deuteronomio 18..22……dont afraid…no mas temor

  76. thinkinghard says:

    Thank you Martin. I will let you know – do you perhaps have an email address or another way I can reply other than on Cedars website?

  77. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    Bravo, JB! Your honest seeking for answers is the start of a fascinating journey.

    As a thinking JW, I would suggest starting plugging some of the gaps that the GB have made in your access to information.

    Wherever your journey takes you, I wish you all the best. Your comments have been a welcome change from the multitudinous apologists that spam this site.

    The main advantage you have is a sense of decency. Good old Jesus had it right when he said that we would know we were on the right path if the fruitage of what we do is good.

    Keep that compassion, JB. It is the cornerstone of a noble and honourable life.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  78. JB says:

    Thank you so much Excelsior, I also find the open and honest exchanges refreshing, it’s equally a great change for me too.

    All the best !

  79. JB says:

    Hi Martin, I hope you’re still checking this thread, I wanted to ask a about the Ingersoll’s essay about the origins of Bible.

    Indeed, reading the old testament, very similar questions came up, which I kind of set aside because I didn’t know how to research further on them. There is indeed a trace of real savage people and the laws written in there made me think of some countries today, in the most conservative parts of the world, where people still get stoned because of adultery, etc.

    Some parts truly shocked me, like Numbers 22:20-22, to this day I couldn’t understand what this rhymes to and I think I’ll never understand. It almost says “God fooled Balaam” …

    But my question is more about the historical facts. The document mentions some events occuring way after the pretended author’s death, and some other historical and scientific inconsistencies. Did you come across more material on this that goes further in proving such historical facts and also information about which verses in Bible that provide scientifically inaccurate statements ? Ingersoll doesn’t seem providing such pointers. Or did Ingersoll do such a reasearch and published it ?

    As an additional comment that comes to my mind : Ingersoll briefly discusses about the efforts where the biblical canon was put together. I would add, it’s still something quite unclear to me. Why some books were added to the canon, by men judging they were inspired texts and some others (Book of Enoch, Maccabees, Baruch, etc etc) were excluded. What actually makes us believe that the “authorities” that decided to put together this biblical canon(s) – because there are several variations of them – were directed by God ? How should we consider the words in revelation that says nothing can be added or removed from the holy scriptures … Added or removed to what basis actually ?

    Like I mentioned earlier on this thread, some material I read are quite interesting about the parallels that were found between the Genesis first chapter and the big bang, and whatever happened after, as per the scientific theories. So maybe late 1800′s Ingersoll didn’t have access to such information. And it still doesn’t clear the question why it contradicted the second chapter …

    The whole topic is quite fascinating indeed :-)

  80. Magnusson says:

    Wilhelm!
    Perhaps you should read the last letter of two JW-brothers
    confronting the “Governing Body”

    [evangelical-related link removed, see posting guidelines]

    The Pharisees of the G.B are in for a big surprise.

    • Wilhelm says:

      I’m not interested to read anything because the Bible tell me not to follow people, and I don’t. If you want to follow people and if you want to play in you own vomit, GO ON. You are all pissed off for what people did but you don’t listen to YOUR GOD when he say don’t follow men.

  81. JB says:

    Hi John Baptist, actually we’re on the same page on this subject. I indeed mentioned “high standards”, not in the view of being “in” or “out” of the organization, rather living a life in line with what we understand from Bible in general, regardless who we are. My own feelings are exactly the same as the circuit overseer’s comment you mentioned ! So my thought is, given today’s world conditions, anything immoral is becoming such a normality that leading a “spiritual” life is getting really difficult. I think this is true for anyone, JW’s or other.

    I am actually an ex-JW. For a longtime I never really cared about my “spirituality” but with time and experiences, I just started coming back to the question. As I was born as a JW and I must say, I also kept some of the positive aspects from my youth of being part of the congregation (and having a loving family, who actually still make me feel as their son and brother), I wanted to get back in touch …. with Jehovah. So I join the meetings simply because this was my initial reference point, but being a DF’d person makes things easier for me, so I don’t have the risk of being an apostate, and actually I’m totally free. I feel free to raise my questions and doubts and try to find answers anywhere. This might make me a little hypocrite, but in any other context I couldn’t really have this openness I need. I think still, as long as the subjects are related to the fundamental moral points of Bible, I feel good being part of the meetings.

    I wish I could just say being a JW again is the right way to find my way to the truth. This would make my life so much easier, but I can’t. I don’t see myself preaching, and being able to give a very honest, truthful answer to several embarrassing points, for a simple reason that I couldn’t find them in the first place.

  82. Magnusson says:

    Totally agree. Wilhelm is so far away from Jesus teachings and doings it´s almost unbelievable.

    Talk about judging others. Could well be your own downfall that is coming with all the hatred, even towards your own brothers, you produce! You do not have Christ Spirit in any way!

  83. Crazyguy says:

    If the JW’s understanding is correct of who will and will not survive the big A then the most loving thing a JW could do is stop preaching altogether, since those that do not hear the message will survive.

  84. Willows says:

    The book of Revelation in the opening verses state the Revelation given to John , was given using signs.

    It appears the Watchtower have taken the Revelation literally not figuratively. This may be corrected in time.

    Some religions use burn-ing hell-fire. Another literal type application of scripture.

  85. zeb says:

    the Bible is often illustrative. Jesus spoke in parabels.
    Think of the “birds” in that light.
    Birds are free creatures. They come and go at whim so they are not ‘anchored’. Food is where they find it. They nest above the dangers on the ground. Their eye-sight is way above any other creature. Their ability to perceive is immense. Get the idea.?

  86. Reading all the replys on the web I am beginning to think all are in a room where daily medication is being given out. Is there a plan to have cool aid day for all the jws . Question does any one know the date and time? Question number two why not have all the persons posting use real names. I use mine. It is only fair, let’s keep the overly medicated, off the page it’s getting very boring.

  87. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    A good point, zeb. The visions of St. John on Patmos were not a documentary about the time of the end!

    There has been research that could explain these visions. There is a particular fungus that grows on grain. If consumed, it can induce hallucinations. Maybe poor old St. John imbibed some of this contaminated grain and fantasised about what would happen?

    There was serious doubt put on the cannonicity of the Apocalypse. It almost didn’t make it into the cannon!

    As I have posted above, I see no moral excuse for God killing anyone!

    I would urge you all to think about the billions that the GB are convinced will die. Babies, children, disabled ones, elderly ones, with no mercy or quarter given. This does not represent love to me.

    Many dictators and despots have used industrial scale murder to try to create their twisted paradises. They have always failed to create anything of worth or longevity.

    Why does everyone think that God killing billions of people will? Ah, you say, but God can read hearts! Well, good for him, but what does that mean? Does he peer through time to see what each individual will do? How can the deepest feelings of billions of people be worthy of eternal death?

    The ends never justify the means. Say that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right. Would any of you want to enter this paradise, created by death? Could you ignore the piles of bodies, the friends and family now eternally dead? Could you remember them?

    Even if I was judged worthy, I would decline. It would be better to be dead than live forever with that guilt.

    I put it this way to highlight that a righteous God could not do that. I don’t believe in God, but if I did believe in him, he certainly would have to excel in mercy, compassion and the giving of life. He would have to guarantee a fulfilling, free life for everyone.

    That is why I do not believe in Armageddon. We do, however, face real and grave threats to the continuation of life as we know it on this planet. We have to come together as people to plan for the changes that are coming and to arrest as best we can the pumping of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. That is a noble future that everyone can take a part in.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  88. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    Donald, I do not use my real name because I am concerned for repercussions for my mother, who is a JW. I do not feel the need to attach my real name to my comments anyway, as they are polite, on point and follow all of the rules for posting on this site.

    As someone who has mild mental health issues, your comments about daily medication are in very poor taste. If you disagree with the views of a poster, then you can either choose to comment yourself in rebuttal, or not. I consider your remarks the same way I view the GB calling me mentally diseased, as an analogy that is not at all helpful.

    Your reference to “the cool aid” is rather crass as well. The deaths in South America of those poor unfortunates was the largest death toll of civilians until the attacks of 911. Anyway, the witnesses will not be dying! It is all the other poor souls who will be dying.

    Finally, if the comments are so very boring, then there are a multitude of things you can do instead. You could go and wash the feet of a beggar, or buy some food for a homeless person, or anything your heart desires.

    I was once a JW. I once believed in all the things that they still erroneously cling to. I try to show compassion and politeness to people who have been systematically brainwashed into a set of beliefs that are wrong. Your kind of sneering impatience is not going to help anyone.

    So please, take a deep breath, and think of something polite and positive to contribute. I am sure that you have many interesting opinions and facts to share.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  89. LAC says:

    Ya they’ll be searching along long time! When Armageddon hits I’ll be still waiting!

    I wonder though if the birds eating flesh is symbolic or literal. You know Armageddon was suppose to come some 20 times or more and yet here we are! 1914 was the year Armageddon was going to happen and we all know what happened! 1914 generation was the generation that would see Armageddon(though it’s not even in the Bible) Now we have an “overlapping generation” equaling 2 generations. So someone who knew someone from 1914 would be the generation. I’m looking it up in my Old World Translation and I aint seeing anything about an overlapping generation. It just says that “this generation will by no means pass away.” What generation? It does not say but we are entering into 2014 and that generation will be 100 years old…..

  90. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    The GB are slowly but surely distancing themselves from their Millennialist roots.

    All the major Christian sects have done this centuries ago! The kingdom of God has been moved to heaven and there is no end of days. A neat and simple solution.

    The trouble with allying oneself to an end of days scenario is that it is impossible to keep waiting forever. People start to wander off! That’s why the GB keep having to say that “it’s just around the corner”.

    By beginning the process of blurring this end of days motif, the GB are attempting to continue their organisation well into the 21st Century and beyond!

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  91. will says:

    Well folks i’ve out of the Org for 10 years and in for 20. It has just dawned on me that all this talk of the JW version of “A FINAL SOLUTION” by a God of Love, beats anything our NWO sociopaths can come up with for a depopulation agenda, slam dunk !!
    Yet I see this as the Watchtower equivelant of the dreadful images painted by Bosh in the 1600s.
    Whereas, the church was systematic in marrying the immortality of the soul doctrine with the horrors of eternal punnishment in hell, to keep the faithfull in check. The Watchtower use the same psychology of a fiery Hell not deep underground, but above ground. A hell based on the fear of birds devouring your corpse.
    This is the JW version of Hell propergated to keep the members in check.
    Yet, why fall for this strawman, [Birds]. If you are conscious of anything after death where is your fear, is it worse to eaten by birds than by maggots !
    The next time you talk to a JW ask them if they believe in Hell fire, or Hell on earth. Its the same doctrine with a different set of demons.

  92. Joel Eastman says:

    Hope brought them in,Fear keeps them in.Glad I left that madness.I would rather die once some day then live dead forever- me.The Watchtower will make you into a living dead puppet with no freewill.

  93. SIDE NOTE: Jeremiah was written for the Jews who were suffering exile from Babylon under the rule of Nebuchadrezzar (stated in the first verse of the chapter, in fact). The book exists in two forms… a shorter form from which it was intended, and a longer form adopted by “western” (Christian) civilizations ALREADY trying to give it contemporary relevance (2000 years ago).

    Revelation is a depiction of an aftermath of a spiritual war. Typical of the time, the imagery would include bodies left out for the birds to feast (the phrase was popular at the time to denote the carnage of victory). Revelation is mainly metaphorical in it’s entirety (quite possibly the writings of a man gone mad with malaria that was quite popular at the time). Regardless, the important lesson here is that it’s still acceptable to have slaves.

    One can’t take one part of the verse and ignore the other part. Either God’s war is coming and it’s okay to have slaves… OR… the ENTIRE VERSE was written for people at a very, very different time with a very different meaning. One or the other.

  94. Zeb says:

    … but the wts has slaves does it not?

  95. Les Hoy says:

    jenny that me laugh and an absolutely wonderfull question for a child to ask.

  96. Les Hoy says:

    yes its another Gospel which Paul warns us about brother.

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