The May 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting was billed by its host, Governing Body member Stephen Lett, as being a “historic” one. It ended up being just that, but for none of the reasons given.
Lett opened the program by drawing attention to the fact that all seven Governing Body members have now hosted JW Broadcasting (tv.jw.org), and hailed the fact that approval has now been given to end the project’s trial period and roll it out on a permanent basis in multiple languages.
If this amounts to a “historic” development, then either Lett is shaky on what “historic” means, or anything new that happens anywhere to anyone can have the same superlative applied.
What WAS historic about the program was that it featured, for the first time, a Governing Body member admitting to the organization being in a financially precarious situation, with Lett revealing a shortfall between projected income and expenditure for the forthcoming fiscal period.
This website has long pointed to a number of omens that not all is well for Watchtower financially – chief among these being the slashing of branch offices and a whopping 39% reduction in monthly magazine printing. But this is the first time, at least to my knowledge, that the organization has come clean about being in financial difficulties – albeit with a notable lack of transparency about the actual figures involved.
Unsurprisingly, Lett used the opportunity to urge Witnesses to donate, and rather comically set about doing this by trying to distance the organization from others who “coerce” their followers to give money…
The above video is my own montage of Lett’s pleas for donations. To watch the full, 1-hour 36-minute unedited program, please click here.
From lack of transparency to blatant deception
As with the previous seven JW Broadcasting episodes, I will be making a full YouTube rebuttal to Lett’s performance in the next week or so. But I wanted to take this opportunity to point out the complete lack of transparency regarding funds in this episode, and highlight at least two areas in which Lett has been blatantly deceitful.
If you are going to divulge a shortfall in funds, particularly with the aim of leveraging more donations (or “valuable things”) from a pool of supporters who are already lagging in this regard, the least you can do is treat them like adults and give some hard numbers. Nowhere in Lett’s rather patronizing, condescending comments is a single figure cited regarding the projected amounts of income and expenditure, and the shortfall between the two. Everything is left to the imagination (or, more accurately, gullibility) of the viewer.
Then you have the flat-out lies regarding the new donation arrangement for kingdom hall construction, and the amount of money involved in the move to Warwick.
When Lett first mentioned feedback from Circuit Overseers regarding the new donation arrangement, the first thought that whizzed through my head was: “Thank goodness! The publishers have seen straight through the stealth-tithing scam and have been giving Circuit Overseers a piece of their mind.”
But according to Lett, rather than there being any dissatisfaction with the new arrangement, the cause of concern for Circuit Overseers is merely that there is a misconception among publishers that Watchtower is flush with money because it has “cancelled” the loans and mortgages of congregations who owe the organization for new kingdom halls.
Cue facepalm, and heavy sigh of despair…
As already reported by this website, a full unabridged reading of the letters to elders dated March 29 and May 12, 2014 reveals that Watchtower has not stopped congregations from sending in money under the new arrangement. Rather, it has insisted that at least the same amount of money be sent through each month for congregations who were already paying off debts, and that congregations without debts should start sending in money each month as though they were in debt!
And ALL congregations, whether previously indebted or not, have been ordered to send in any surplus of funds, leaving only $5,000 plus three months’ worth of operating costs in the local coffers. So rather than saving money for congregations, Watchtower is demanding more from them as a result of the recent changes.
And keep in mind that if Watchtower ever goes bust (an increasingly likely scenario) the kingdom halls will go straight down in flames with it under this new arrangement (being no longer financially independent), and none of the money invested in kingdom hall construction by local brothers will find its way back into their pockets.
In the twisted world of Watchtower, a Witness should pay for his or her local kingdom hall as though it is their responsibility, even though the kingdom hall is an asset ultimately belonging to Watchtower and Watchtower can (and will) get all the proceeds from selling it.
But you wouldn’t suspect any of this dreadful scam from Lett, who draws comparisons between the ‘generosity’ of Watchtower’s new stealth-tithing arrangement and the dropping of charges for literature in 1990 – a move which, by the way, arose only because Watchtower’s non-profit status was under threat.
This all represents a blatant deception on Lett’s part, relying entirely on the majority of viewers being blissfully ignorant of the letters to elders that were circulated last year, and the full scope of the new donation/tithing arrangement.
But if this weren’t enough, we then have what I think is the most bald-faced lie I have ever seen a Governing Body member utter into a camera…
The first thing to remember is that Watchtower has operated quite successfully for many years before the move to Warwick was proposed, so any attempt to fob the viewer off with some half-baked story that the proceeds of one unnamed “significant” Brooklyn property would offset only a few weeks of normal operating costs can be immediately dismissed.
Even if Watchtower were to sell one of its Brooklyn properties for only one dollar, that is a still a dollar they wouldn’t have had available to them in any of the years prior to the Warwick move being discussed – years when Watchtower had up to 116 branch offices in operation (in 2010) compared to only 90 today.
This leaves us with the breathtaking subterfuge of Lett’s suggestion that the sale of the Brooklyn property portfolio “is basically only financing the construction of World Headquarters in Warwick and the purchase of other properties that are needed to facilitate the move from Brooklyn in the future.”
Like many cults, Watchtower is less than open when it comes to divulging how much money it spends on various projects to those it holds responsible for picking up the tab. This means that information on what Watchtower is spending on the Warwick move is hard to come by at best, but there are two figures that give some indication of the amounts of cash involved.
Four separate neutral sources, namely The Brooklyn Paper, The Observer, The Real Deal and the New York Post all cite an estimated figure of $11.5 million for the building costs of the new Warwick headquarters. I am presently trying to verify the source of this estimate, but considering the complex is being built with mostly volunteer labor, such a low figure isn’t completely out of the question.
It has also been reported elsewhere that the Tuxedo complex, perhaps the most well-known facility for supporting the work at Warwick, cost Watchtower a mere $3.2 million.
Obviously there are a lot of other numbers we are missing for other properties and planning/development expenses (due entirely to Watchtower’s lack of transparency rather than any attempts to mislead or deceive on the part of anyone else), but even if we multiply the above two figures by 10 for the sake of argument, we are left with less than $150 million.
Contrast that with the 1 Billion Watchtower is making for the entire Brooklyn portfolio, with an eye-watering $375 million coming through for one transaction alone, and the depth of Lett’s deception should quickly become apparent.
The move from Brooklyn to Warwick IS an enormous money-spinner for the organization, commonly known as a property “flip,” and in no way can it be thought of as a like-for-like switch according to Lett’s blatant, bald-faced misrepresentation.
Nobody else to blame
If Watchtower is low on funds, which I am thrilled to hear confirmation of straight from the horse’s mouth (in more than one sense), it is NOT the fault of any misunderstanding on the part of ordinary Witnesses. If anything, most Witnesses woefully underestimate the breathtaking amount of money Watchtower has pocketed from selling off Brooklyn, thanks in no small measure to the Governing Body’s total, deliberate and ongoing financial information black-out.
There is only one direction in which the finger of blame should be pointed respecting the Governing Body’s monetary woes, and that is towards them. If the Governing Body is spending more money than they are receiving from the kindness and generosity of Witnesses, who are already hard-pressed as a result of the insane and immoral prohibition on higher education, then by no stretch of the imagination can they be thought of as either faithful or discreet.
Let’s just hope that, for many Witnesses watching this most recent parade of self-congratulation, exaggeration, lies and bluster, with Stephen Lett as the latest floundering, pompous ringmaster to hog the limelight in this grotesque JW Broadcasting circus sham, the penny has finally dropped.
Further reading…
- Rawstory article
- Friendly Atheist blog coverage of this article
- JWsurvey articles on Warwick move
- JWsurvey articles on Brooklyn sell-off
- JWsurvey articles on Watchtower’s downsizing
- JW Broadcasting video rebuttals
Related video…
@ScotWm, in the U.S. you can’t get unemployment compensation unless you are laid off (no more work for you or you can’t do your work even though you try) or you have to prove you were fired unfairly which takes a lawyer and time and money to prove. I think if this was a true story, the guy was laid off. If this was a true story the guy could never have gotten unemployment compensation if he quit his job like the Society would like to make you think is what happened. That story was very deceptive.
@Charles Costante, I don’t think the Governing Body prepare anything because in a recent video, Herd was saying that they spend all their time reading and reading and reading all that the writing department puts out for them to read and approve of. I doubt if they even do any research because they are just so “busy” reading all the time. As far as I know, the writing department are all of the “other sheep” and are not “anointed with Holy Spirit”. What person would love to live their life style and all the “work” they had to do was read and give talks????
The way I look at it, these men are just delusional and think that God is speaking to them and not to the other sheep and that falls under the category of nuts. They probably reason that if they actually stepped out of their doors and were to go up to strangers’ houses, that the apostates would start surrounding them and asking them questions and so they think God would certainly understand why they don’t go out of their residences without guard dogs protecting them since the “apostates” are supposedly Satanic and they probably think their lives are in danger from them. I think they think they are like the Pope or the Queen of England because they are just that important.
I think it is impossible to talk to these guys in person or on the phone because they are afraid that the rank and file will find out that they don’t know any more than the average Joe but they want to keep the illusion going to the rank and file that they have been “specially called” and have a one on one with God.
RE: Unemployment insurance:
Around 46 minutes into the “Lett’s Give Everything We Have” video: 6 MONTH LATER — “I never thought it would go on so long. Eventually, I had to go on unemployment insurance so we could get by.”
We are shown that this brother, his wife and children enjoy very nice living conditions. And somehow, they managed to keep this living arrangement going for six months without any income. Obviously, they had not been donating all of their valuable things to the Watchtower Society, or they would have been living under a freeway overpass in a cardboard box by this time.
California law: “State law provides that an individual who quits his/her job may be eligible for UI benefits provided there was “good cause” for leaving employment, and the individual made all reasonable attempts to keep their job (e.g., request of leave of absence or transfer). Once all reasonable alternatives to leaving have been attempted, good cause may include situations such as leaving work due to unsafe working conditions, leaving work based on a medical doctor’s advice, or leaving work to protect oneself or one’s child from domestic violence.”
So, after six months of living off of a mysterious funding source, this brother says that he had to go on unemployment insurance. Perhaps he confused unemployment insurance with welfare.
http://www.edd.ca.gov/unemployment/faq_-_eligibility.htm
@ScotWm, I will bet you anything if there really is any truth to that story, the real truth is that he went on welfare. Nothing else about it adds up because he could have gone to meetings at another Kingdom Hall so he would have had to lie if he told the unemployment office that he couldn’t attend church at another church etc. I bet he did quit his job (if it’s a real story which I doubt) and went on welfare because he thought if he “trusted” in Jehovah and quit his job to attend Sunday meetings in that one Kingdom Hall, that Jehovah would throw a job in his face that would be perfect for him so he wouldn’t have to miss any meetings.
I agree with what you said in that it was very irresponsible and the Bible does say that the man who doesn’t take care of his family is worse than an unbeliever.
I too am inclined to believe that the entire story about the brother, who put Watchtower interests first and quit his job, is a complete falsehood.
After watching the entire 95 minute “Lett’s Dig Deeper” video, I don’t recall hearing the Jesus’ name mentioned even once. Matthew 6:25 and 33 were quoted around 45 minutes into the video, but Jesus was not mentioned as being the One who spoke these words.
This trend of minimizing Jesus and emphasizing the Governing body has been going on for some time now. The message now seems to be; “Draw close to Jehovah by drawing close to the Governing Body.”
Contrast this situation with the words of our Savior: “No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
It is remarkable that the GB in their talks often read the Bible from a tablet. So they said that Jehovah even controlled the weather to allow the printing of new Bibles (the even more corrupted version) and then they read the electronic version. I think Jehovah could have saved dying African children instead.
My first comment here.
First of all, thank you so much, Lloyd, for your website and all your effort.
Here my question, why don’t these seven magnificent at least once apply their own rule: “Wait on Jehovah!”, and that in the case which is much less serious than many others they have put on the sheep as heavy load..
I think the GB have Made a BIG BIG MISTAKE BEGGING for Money. This monthly broadcast will be first time in 40 other languages other than English. The Germans,French,Italians,Spanish etc are facing hard Economic Times the last few years. When Money is Short families have to cut back & SIMPLIFY their Lives . Well GB follow Jesus & Apostle Paul example who was a TENTMAKER so he had a Secular Job so AS NOT to be a Financial BURDEN on the Brothers! So GB GET a REAL JOB & Pay Taxes like the rest of us who Not only WORK so we can Put Money in the DAMNED Contribution boxes to pay for 6000 bethel workers as well as Circuit Overseers, Missionaries, Special Pioneers, Branch Servants , 7 GB Members & families,etc,etc
Building Bigger Storehouses such as Paterson,Walkill,Warwick ,Chelmsford in UK (4 times size of Mill Hill),New French Bethel,3000 new Kingdom Halls EACH YEAR in North America,..the 5 YEAR MASTERPLAN,etc,etc plus 170 RTO(Remote Translation Offices) at a cost of 1 to 3 Million Dollars each …. That is Approximately 400 Million Dollars Alone!! For Obscure Languages which only a few Benefit .Surely Jehovah can read their hearts at Armageddon like he will have to do with about 3 Billion people in China,India & countries that only have a few thousand publishers .The GB have Expanded to quickly their Building Programme & will cost a FORTUNE to Build & Then Maintain . This will be their Downfall!!
Anonymous, The same rules regarding unemployment benefit
apply here in G,B, The man that Lett mentions, who packed in
his job so he wouldn’t have to miss just one meeting would not
be eligible for any monetary help.
Because the man pioneered,( instead of spending the time looking
for another job! ) Lett calls his attitude BALANCED.
But what could be more IRRESPONSIBLE, than a man with a family to
consider, just throwing in his job, especially in times of job scarcity.
A fellow witness who studied with the man, told him JHVH
would give special attention to his prayers. Here I can’t help thinking
of the 26 youths pictured in a 1994 Awake who died for want of a
blood transfusion. No doubt their parents prayed most fervently for
their children’s lives, but no one seems to have listened. But we’re
expected to believe that because a job eventually turned up for this
Impulsive and ill advised man, that God was personally looking out.
for him.
Further reckless advice was given, “Do not be anxious for tomorrow”.
This seemed paradoxical as the many recent schemes and pleas
for money indicate more than a “Little” anxiety about tomorrow
and the future of this org. Not to mention the cushy lifestyle enjoyed
only by the elite.
RE: “But what could be more IRRESPONSIBLE, than a man with a family to consider, just throwing in his job, especially in times of job scarcity.”
But that’s exactly what one California brother did a few years ago. This brother and his family came into the “truth” and soon after, his prayers were answered. He made the transition from welfare and part time grunge work to a union job as a utility clerk (janitor) in a supermarket. This job paid a decent wage, provided excellent benefits and allowed him to attend all meetings. This job was claimed by all to be the loving provision that proved his prayers had been answered.
But then, a summer assembly road show came to town and this brother was unable to get time off to attend the first day’s meeting. So he quit his job and lost all of his benefits, even though his wife was 6 months pregnant. I don’t know if he was able to finally collect unemployment, but he eventually ended up back on welfare and has stayed there ever since, living below the poverty level. His wife later divorced him.
On the bright side, this brother was able to attend each day of the assembly, so he is assured of eternal life on a paradise earth.
It’s too bad that this faithful brother’s story wasn’t used in the “Lett’s Give Until It Hurts” video.
I have been doing a lot of research on the psychology of religion. It may even become the topic of my master’s degree thesis. I enjoy reading the comments posted by ex-Witnesses because they offer insight into the mind controlling techniques used by the Watchtower.
I have two questions:
1- Are there any modern cases of religious movements that disappeared because their members became aware of their unfounded beliefs or because they lost the support of their membership? Is it reasonable to expect that a group as large as JWs will eventually disappear or will they morph into a more mainstream, weakened form of secular religion?
2- Not sure if Lloyd has already covered this topic in one of his postings but are members of the governing body as deluded as their followers? Are they victims of their own fallacies or is there any reason to believe that seven elderly men in Brooklyn are purposely misleading the flock?
I belonged to this religion for decades. I was a regular pioneer and became a ministerial servant when I was 19 years old. I also lived in the Brazilian Bethel for six months where I had a chance to meet and work with branch overseers. They all seem to be genuine.
Any insight? Thoughts?
Well, you just said it. It’s a “delusion”. How does a person build a delusion in their mind? How do they maintain it and rationalize it in their mind? When does the delusion meet reality? Sometimes at a crisis, sometimes at death.
@Searcher: Good points for additional research! Thank you for your feedback.
@Curious Student, I am so glad you are out of the Organization and going to school!
Have you read Ray Franz’s book, Crisis of Conscience? Ray was a life long Witness from a family that were big in the Witnesses and his Uncle eventually became the 3rd president.
He was a pioneer and in the circuit work and branch work etc. before going to New York to serve at Bethel and becoming part of the Governing Body. He thought it was the “truth” all those years and even when he was at Bethel for quite a while and then he started doing research on the Aid to Bible Understanding and at the same time there was a brother called Carl Olaf Jonsson who had been doing independent research on 607 and Mr. Jonsson was going back and forth with what he had found in his research and the Society disfellowshipped Mr. Jonsson because they wanted to shut him up so he would not be able to tell anybody that Jerusalem was actually destroyed in 586/587 BCE instead of 607 and obviously Ray didn’t agree with doing that to Mr. Jonsson. The Society became paranoid and then the Society started a purge at Bethel and even though Ray Franz wasn’t involved in anything that was against the Society, the Governing Body disfellowshipped him anyway and anybody else they just felt like getting rid of. Once Ray discovered a lot of the lies that the Society was covering up, he and his wife decided to just quietly leave Bethel but the Governing Body disfellowshipped him anyway because he had “inside” information.
After that, is when he wrote Crisis of Conscience and that is when the Society made it a rule that nobody can just quietly leave the organization and that if anybody starts telling anybody else in the organization about all the lies and coverups that they will be disfellowshipped for apostasy.
So, most of the Witnesses in the field really think it’s the truth and maybe even the Governing Body might think it’s the truth but they are out of reach of the rank and file. Nobody is allowed to speak to these guys so until somebody can corner them and start asking some questions to their face and they can’t get away and are forced to answer to the quesions, it’s hard to know if they are delusional or do know it’s not the truth and are scallywags.
What is so bad about it is that people’s lives are at stake when it comes to blood and disfellowshipping. If the rank and file were allowed to know about all the dirty laundry and decided to stick with them anyway, that is one thing but they aren’t told anything about the real truth at all.
I believe that there are so many people who love the Governing Body so much that they could all admit to having sex with dogs and the rank and file would stick with them anyway because they are so deep into forgiving because they are told over and over again that if they can’t forgive, than how could Jehovah forgive them of their sins?
That’s how it works.
The forgiving part only runs one way for the GB. Again, “do as we say and not as we do” mentality. They don’t forgive (i.e. disfellowshiping) anyone for disagreeing and/or questioning the GB or their flock of bull____ writers and history revisers.
@Anonymous: Thank you. Yes, I read Ray Franz’ book. How many of them do you think find themselves in the same situation but do not have the courage to leave and feel forced to perpetuate the same lies? Do they get trapped in their own web of distorted beliefs? Are they misleading because they find themselves in a situation of non-return? Lloyd posted a video on YouTube about Scientology. It is clear to me that L. Ron Hubbard and his successor, David Miscavige, did not have “pure” motives from the start. Apparently Hubbard created a religious front only for tax purposes. I particularly do not see such an evil intent on the modern leadership of JW. As I have stated, I think they are caught up in their own web of lies such as some rank and file members that discover later on in life that they are too old to leave the organization to restart their lives.
@curious student, I don’t know. Most of them actually seem evil to me like they know it’s all lies but then it is so hard for me to believe that they have the balls to get in front of the camera every month if they knew they were telling nothing but lies. There is absolutely nothing I can say to my born in husband who is 70 and he is a 3rd generation born in and he can’t deal with him and his whole family and grandmother and mother and aunts and uncles and cousins having all been wrong. He just can’t let his brain go there and I suspect that the Governing Body can be just that “thick” too.
I just got done typing out the entire book of Exodus, trying to understand every scripture and there is not a single thinking person that could possibly ever think it could have actually happened the way it says it did if they actually paid attention to it when they read it. For instance I asked my husband what was written on the first set of stone tablets and he didn’t know but it starts with Exodus chapter 25 and goes all the way through Exodus 31 and it was the instructions for the building of the tabernacle. That is what was written on the first two stone tablets that God wrote on for him. Everybody thinks it was the ten commandments but nobody actually pays any attention when they read the Bible and I never did either until I actually typed it out scripture by scripture. You can’t tell me that these men who supposedly hear from God and are directing His people wouldn’t make that clear to the Governing Body but yet have you ever seen anything like that in any Watchtower literature? I sure haven’t but it’s in everybody’s Bible in black and white. That is only one question I’d love asking any one of the Governing Body to see if they know the answer.
Good Evening Anonymous..I wanted to tell you I absolutely love all of your comments they are well written, informative and useful! I have a question for you,if a witness came to your door, what would you say??
(you will only get a few short minutes before they are on to you) I want to ask them…. if they tell new flock members that if they change their mind and do not want to be a JW any longer they will lose their family and friends.
Christian Science comes to my mind as a religion that once was large and influential and now seems to have faded away. All in a generation or two, as well.
@JJ – Thank you. I had never heard about Christian Science. I did a quick research and found out that they flourished in the early 1900’s but have lost a significant part of their membership by now.
You know? This JW.org broadcast is a real blessing in disguise. The recent broadcast of “Story Time with Brother Lett” sure is telling for those who are thinking of joining this cult or have a shadow of doubt about its claims. The broadcast shows what a dolt this guy and the other 6 buffoons are like when they get in front of this very plastic-like televangelist set. Now, the viewer of JW.org can also very easily go to other websites of similar name (ex/ JWSurvey) that pop up in the browser search engine. Low on money in coffers, low on brains in the organization, low on slave labor for work at bethel (i.e. TPT talk on visiting Bethel instead of an amusement park); these guys are really just killing themselves and advertising it to boot. GOOD THING this JW.org!
I think the GB might have started JW TV with the expressed aim of using it to solicit money.
This shortage of income didn’t just happen this year! The money had been drying up for a long time and they are getting desperate.
I have just been viewing an article on JW.Org that was entitled ‘How do Jehovah’s Witnesses fund their work?’ I wanted to find this quote that seems to be in direct contrast to the latest broadcast by Stephen Lett. The quote said “Over a century ago, the second issue of the Watchtower magazine stated that we believe we have Jehovah as our backer and that we “will never beg nor petition men for support”—and we never have!—Matthew 10:8.” Well what was that last broadcast all about then!
If Lett’s talk about how the Israelites gave so willingly doesn’t do the trick, the next thing he might pull out of his bag of tricks is that actually they were told that they were “required” to give to the temple to take care of the priests at Exodus 20:12, Exodus 30: 13,14 and Deut. 14:28,29 and Deut. 16: 16-18.
Since the Society has always said they were different than the other churches who tithe, it is almost impossible for them to tithe now. That was at the point that the Society has always said it was time to close up shop.
If the rank and file are like my husband, they will shower the Society with more and more money because of talks like this because they believe what they want to believe. They can’t accept that they are wrong and have been so misled all their lives and how do they go back and explain to their children and parents and aunts and uncles and cousins and Bible studies now after they helped all those people into the “truth”? How will they explain to all their friends and family if they should stop going to meetings and service? The hardest ones to deal with all those feelings are the elders and ministerial servants and pioneers and Circuit Overseers and Governing Body members. How can they deal with finding out that they have been misled all their lives and they will never get another chance to live that life again and this life was all it was? I am so glad I was never in that position. Like I told the elders who came to see me, “I am just a little person. Nobody pays that much attention to a little person but when it comes to an elder or a Circuit Overseer or Governing Body member taking off and quitting, then people sit up and take notice. I personally don’t know how hard it has to be for an elder to quit but my conscience won’t let me step foot in another Kingdom Hall and if the Governing Body members would take questions from apostates, then we’d know for sure if they are really sincere and have a working conscience or are just crooks out to fleece poor innocent people.
ScotWm, Good post, these experiences are meaningless.
There’s just as many negative ones as the positive kind,
take your pick!
It’s the same with prayer, out of a few million people coincidence
will provide what some will claim is an answer to a prayer.
But it’s usually something relatively trivial, that could easily be
accomplished by men. Not a real demonstration of almighty
power like a cure for advanced cancer or a restored limb.
Hello their!
Cedars you nailed it.
Let me share a real-time experience, the other day my wife & I watched the May TV BC , with all the buzz of WT tv – with in 20 minutes you will not believe what she said, “OK I get it, give more money to Jehovah & more time”, she then grab the TV remote, I think she meant more field service time.
I was in shock & awe. . . yeah right,
Did anyone else hear what Lett said, ” thank you for all your donations, that little box with a slot the World Wide Work donation box”. Their was a letter read recently at the KH with instructions to remove this little box with a slot WWW. Rumor has it – it was alleged due to money laundering. At our KH per the WT letter read we removed this little box with the slot marked WWW. It does not exist in our KH, we only have one little box with a slot, marked local donations.
I wonder if this strategy back fired, the R&F might have thought OK only 1 box = 1 donations not 2. Maybe ?.?
Then you had the forgiven of all KH loans letters, and the updated letter – this tells me there might be a power struggle at WT, why send an updated letter with more clarity or more confusion, your choice.
Keep up the good work advancing Kingdom clarity.
@Anonymous. YOUR LAST Comment has Really Hit the Nail on the Head!! I sat down with my Wife last Night & watched Stephen Lett BEG for MONEY & Time from TIRED,EXHAUSTED JWs & WAITING For the END to COME of the Last Days for 101 years since 1914 . I said to my Wife if you keep Changing Interpretation of Prophecy time& time again & Beg for money from Hard Working Brothers who are Struggling to survive & Look at the PLUSH, LUXURIOUS Buildings being planned with Gym& running track at GB HQ in Warwick & En-Suite Facilities at the Apartment Blocks to house all the workers & my Wife said we must look how we can Donate More . !!! DELUDED??? Or Can’t Admit the BIG MISTAKE in Your WHOLE LIFE has been WASTED Slaving for an American PUBLISHING Corporation who I could make a better Stab at interpreting Scripture than they can . The biggest mistake is keep Flip Flopping Doctrines & leaving Evidence on the Printed Page what People can compare!!!
@Anonymous . Just to add to your point about the GB taking Questions from Apostates… Jesus spoke with Judas quite freely & sat down & ate a meal with him & let him associate with all the other brothers(11 apostles) Also Jesus viewed the Pharisees& Saducees as Apostates from the Jewish Religion because they IMPOSED Heavy Burdens on the people (a bit like the GB do),Yet Jesus quite Freely spoke & ate with these Apostate Priests on a day to day basis so WHY Do the GB Encourage SHUNNING of Teenagers & anyone else who FOOLISHLY got Baptised at 11,12,13,14,15,16 when they didn’t have a FLIPPING CLUE what they were getting involved in !!!!
Watching Stephen Lett, it would not surprise me at all if a spring popped out of his ear and he started to wind down. They’re not people, they’re Govbots!!! Run for your lives, and secure your bank accounts!
Would anyone care to offer an opinion on that bit in the segment of the unemployed guy who said “because I was newly baptized my prayers would be more readily answered…”
I haven’t heard that reasoning before. Does the WTS really say that, if so, what is there reasoning? Why would a newly baptized person have their prayers answered before a long-term faithful one?
Reasons or reasoning? You’re asking too much :-) I imagine that those kind of questions led or are leading you out of the org. I thought that that was an interesting and confusing statement myself and here is what came to my mind: The dedication and baptism talk always highlights the fact that as newly baptized ones they will be a special target of Satan (based on Jesus’ baptism/ tentative narrative?). Maybe they figure, that as a special target of Satan, they get special attention from Jehovah until the next batch of recruits get dunked. The second part would be the idea, also propounded in the dedication and baptism talk, that newly baptized ones are now entering into a real relationship with Jehovah that they haven’t truly experienced up to this point. As for the long time faithful servants, they must be so firm and steadfast after years of experience, that they can “can wait on Jehovah” a little while. As far as any scriptural reasoning, I’ve personally never seen anything in the bible that would support this particular idea but I’m open to correction.
Correction – Jesus baptism/ temptation narrative*
I’ve heard that one before as well, and it confused the hell out of me. It was at the baptism talk last year in London Twickenham. The speaker was talking about “how the newly baptised finally have unrestricted access to Jehovah in prayer.”
I’d never head that before (I was rapidly waking up at the time and on the alert for BS like this) and quizzed many elders about it, none of whom could explain or back it back form the scriptures.
I’d always been taught that Jehovah was the “hearer of prayer” and that your status as a baptised or unbaptised person had no bearing on that. One or two I spoke to tried to give some vague justification, but none of it made any sense or had any scriptural backing, and then when I pressed home the point that brothers giving baptism talks should not be making points they cannot back up scripturally, the conversations always came to an icy halt.
It was one of the many examples of BS from high ranking members who should have known better than made me realise they were just stumbling, bumbling men.
Well, the GB certainly “primed the pump” (as we in the States would say) when that talk was given last year that said that all the Witnesses should do anything the GB asks in the future, no matter how odd and unusual it would seem. How disappointing! I imagined that there would be some sort of edict that would come down from the GB that when the great tribulation begins, everyone should climb up on their rooftops and dance a little jig. Or start drinking ketchup in their coffee. But all they were preparing us for was yet another money beg. And here I was really looking forward to something original. This makes me feel the same way I did on Jan 1, 1976.
I think you hit the nail on the head there. A money-grubbing was the strange and unusual order. Let’s watch how this unfolds.
“…….. are members of the governing body as deluded as their followers? Are they victims of their own fallacies or is there any reason to believe that seven elderly men in Brooklyn are purposely misleading the flock?”
Curious Student, I think they’re just as deluded as their followers. If they became Witnesses when they were very young or were born into it, they would have been brainwashed. If they became one as an adult, it was probably because they needed an oar to help them navigate through life’s downs and give them some sort of hope. The problem arises much later when they’re given positions of authority (elders, circuit or branch overseers etc.) and they get a taste of power. “Power activates the very same reward circuitry in the brain and creates an addictive ‘high’ in much the same way as drug addiction.” (http://theconversation.com/the-neurochemistry-of-power-has-implications-for-political-change-23844). Even if they do suffer from the occasional twinge of doubt about what they been taught to believe, they will suppress it because the need to get a ‘high’ from the power they enjoy over the rank and file is much stronger.
Good luck with the thesis!
Great post Cedars
@Charles Costante – I agree, my feeling is that the GB are deluded, rather than being totally cynical manipulators. Your link re the addictive nature of power looks like the explanation we need for “why” they do it. In part it says:
“Power, especially absolute and unchecked power, is intoxicating. Its effects occur at the cellular and neurochemical level.”
Consider the power exercised by the GB – “absolute and unchecked power”. There is a huge difference between that power and that of a politician (as the recent UK elections have shown with many long-standing members of parliament being rejected by voters). In contrast in the Org any criticism of the GB is met with expulsion, and isolation from family and friends.. How addictive must that total power be. The commensurate rewards of a comfortable apartment et cetera are probably just the mere trappings of power and not the key driver.
Consider how hard it would be to get such power in any other institution, especially with such a minimal education, and such limited capacity – as Letts displays in his quirky and bizarre TV show.
@Bearwoddy -It’s obvious that they had something in mind, something they were preparing everyone for. Very likely it was this – perhaps there is more of the same to come.
@anonymous – I was “born in” to this, and from the innocent question of a householder when I was 19 years old “and you believe this?” It took me 20 years before I hit an emotional crisis and could finally unpick myself from it. The conditioning is extremely powerful and deep – those 20 years I now recognised as a period of “cognitive dissonance” when I knew none of it made sense but couldn’t get rid of the belief.
The situation with your husband and family must be very difficult. Have you seen Cedars interview With Steven Hassan? It may be helpful.
Websites like this would have made a huge difference to my life – keep it up Cedars, you’re saving lives!
Regarding “giving”-my parents sold their perfectly pleasant bungalow in Cornwall UK in 1972 to move to a mobile home (trailer) – I’m fairly sure the available cash was sent to Brooklyn. I know at that time he tried to cash out his pension, expecting Armageddon by 1975. Of course he was not allowed to do that, which was fortunate as he lived to be 87.
SwimmingWild
As for the motivation of the GB my opinion is that they are deluded, not overtly evil.
I say this because Ime still in and know how the JW system works, you get carried along by the desire to please Jehovah,which is good,but this is achieved by following GB instructions that are policed by the layers of middle management, district overseers, circuit overseers elders and ministerial servants.
Your spirituality is measured by your climb up through the layers.
So you are put in a climb by default and all there is for you is to continue trying under the illusion that you are becoming more spiritual,when in reality you are becoming progressively institutionalised, I would garantee this is the journey of everyone of the GB and is their mindset,maybe, like Ray Franz, it might dawn what they have actually done. To then continue is a different problem
I think your statement that “you are put in a climb by default and all there is for you is to continue trying under the illusion that you are becoming more spiritual, when in reality you are becoming progressively institutionalised” makes a lot of sense. I had some moments of doubts during my “institutionalization” but going to Bethel was probably the turning point.
@Swimming Wild: Great point! This statement is very insightful:
“The commensurate rewards of a comfortable apartment et cetera are probably just the mere trappings of power and not the key driver.
Consider how hard it would be to get such power in any other institution, especially with such a minimal education, and such limited capacity”
That makes sense. I met several Bethelites that had being raised in poor communities and considered “a privilege” to live in the Brazilian Bethel. They enjoyed some basic conveniences in the branch premises that are considered luxury in underdeveloped countries. Some of them apparently saw their connections with international brothers as a passport for inexpensive international trips as well. Others feared having to leave their comfortable surroundings because of marriage. I can see how a governing body member would have a hard time losing some of these “trappings of power”, especially later on in life when most people resist changes. They also do not have the stamina, education and professional skills to restart all over again! Not to mention the absence of a retirement plan!
@Charles Costante, well said.
*** w62 5/15 p. 297 par. 2 The Faithful Creator ***
In this twentieth century there are multitudes of new gods, or old gods with new names. A group of twenty-five Catholic and Protestant theologians in America recently named some of these as “physical power and comfort,” “financial security,” “prestige,” “sex,” “science,” “social status,” “atomic power,” “Libido” and “war.” Even the Soviets have their gods, such as Marx, the lonely Lenin and “the god of fortresses.”—Dan. 11:38.
Good point Charles! Thank you for your feedback.
I have to admit that I have completely to understand Jehovah’s Witnesses and their god. I tend to suspect they have different gods as they themselves acknowledge it in their publications.
*** w62 5/15 p. 297 par. 2 The Faithful Creator ***
In this twentieth century there are multitudes of new gods, or old gods with new names. A group of twenty-five Catholic and Protestant theologians in America recently named some of these as “physical power and comfort,” “financial security,” “prestige,” “sex,” “science,” “social status,” “atomic power,” “Libido” and “war.” Even the Soviets have their gods, such as Marx, the lonely Lenin and “the god of fortresses.”—Dan. 11:38.
I don’t think you need to make a video rebuttal since this article covers the money grubbing and lies so succinctly. Still, I look forward to your next video.
Even when I was a believing JW I always inwardly cringed when they made what I even then called called the “money grubbing” announcements at every assembly and convention. Now it’s becoming more extreme. We know they have zoodles of money, but they just aren’t telling everyone it’s going to pay for lawyers to defend them against pedophile cases.
To sum up:
Don’t make money, give us your time instead
Don’t get educated, give us your mind instead
We need more money, give it to us now
This organization steals people’s potential by prohibiting education
It steals their time, through never ending service and meetings
It steals their families by forcing shunning of loved ones
Finally it steals their money for its own immoral purposes
All of this is what Jehovah wants or is it really just a poorly planned shakedown run by men?
@Siam. Your comment Echoes what most JWs feel but are Afraid to admit. There are& will be more comments for this GB Monthly Broadcast because it is SO BLATANT in its BEGGING for Money & no one EVEN the Most Ardent JW Likes to Part with their HARD EARNED MONEY!!!
Thank you for this site brother John – it is a great source of comfort.
When one talks about financing the world wide work and building program – are the anointed brothers that are not based at the US Headquarters (The memorial partakers) supported financially by the Society – does anyone know?
Correct me if I am wrong – just because these anointed are not directly contributing to the increasing light by being part of the US based writing / publishing team – it is not to say that they are without need for support.
My understanding is that this group of people would be setting the example in terms of putting godly things first and would therefore not have accumulated investments in property or business to see them through their old age – like most older witnesses?
I have often wondered about the role of this silent group of the 144,000 and the fact that they are rarely mentioned or there role explained in detail in any literature.
Any reasoning person would think that the governing body would at least acknowledge or have some form of spiritual interchange with this group of brothers and sisters?
Thanks again for the hard work John!
Steven
Are they deluded or just evil ? if their actions continually
produce evil results then the intent is irrelevant, the results
are the same.
Hitler on a personal level was said to be a most charming
man, nevertheless he was delusional. In his book
“Mein Kampf” He said he was acting in accord with “God’s
Will” and that he had been chosen by “Providence”.
( Sounds familiar ! )
While not yet equalling the number killed in the “Holocaust,
this religion with its gb, are directly responsible for thousands
of unnecessary deaths of young and old.
For some reason ! The wt, doesn’t publish figures on the number
of deaths caused by the erroneous blood doctrine. “The American
Journal of Medicine” however gave figures for the year 1993.-
That year, out of 1,400. cases of surgery performed on JWs,
1, in every 100 died refusing blood. That number compounded
by the several million members plus the number of years the
the doctrine has been in operation adds up to many thousands.
Add to this the abnormally high suicide rate undoubtedly caused
by Shunning, Fear, Guilt, continual pressure to live up to an
impossible standard and to keep doing and giving “More”
Many other harmful things could be added to the list. But to
answer the question, Are they Deluded or Evil ? In my
opinion the answer is “Both”, and donating money to them
would be immoral.
@ TedL: Thank you. How is that different from the role that I personally played when I “helped” some Bible students to become Witnesses? They are still in the organization. I sincerely believed we had the truth.
The LORD needs your MONEY!!!
Thanks to jwsurvey I woke up last year. This broadcast made me feel so good about the decision I made to leave the org. Thanks Steven Lett
@Stephen Lett . YOU ARE STUPID saying in your broadcast ‘You are not SHY ASKING for MONEY ‘
BIG BIG MISTAKE when Millions of JWs are struggling to Pay Bills & Taxes ,Losing Jobs,etc JWs have to Cut out Non Essentials if not enough money coming in!!! Stephen me old Buddy how about cutting back Expenditure on Luxurious Buildings. CLOSE DOWN STANLEY HALLS & sell it off as it is Obscenley Luxurious & God doesn’t dwell in handmade temples as Apostle Paul says in Acts!
CLOSE DOWN all those Teaching SCHOOLS such as Paterson , Elders Schools,Pioneer Schools,School for Christian Couples,MTS,Etc,Etc.
WE HAVE The BIBLE !! Jesus & Paul Condemned the Pharisees for all their RULES & learning in Schools. & The Bible is Enough. In JW Land since 1879 over 150 different books have been produced.. MOST NOW CANNOT be USED because of OLD LIGHT!! What a waste of MONEY on PRINTING PRESSES & BUILDINGs to House them in & Paper & ink& manpower!!!
Am gonna tell the clown mr.lett…..down worry…..leave it in jehovah’s hands…….
Folks,
I think that the leadership of the WTBTS are not deluded. They know what they are doing is wrong and unchristian, but they do it anyway!
We can agree to disagree, but we are making the mistake of thinking that the leadership of the WTBTS are like us. They are not like us. They do not care about anyone else except themselves. We want to help others, which is why we comment and conduct our activism. The leadership of the WTBTS do not want to help others.
They are sociopaths who are unable to care for others, because other people are merely an abstraction to them.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
@Curious Student. Thanks for your response. To try to answer
your question.- Every individual has to examine their own
motives and take responsibility for their own actions.
I can only answer for myself. When I concluded that this was
cult poison, I stopped spreading the poison and made my
reasons known to others I had brought into the org,
One such person was a man now serving as an elder and after
a long discussion with him he admitted the WTS, was a false
prophet org, yet he still shares in all their activities. What are
his motives ? I suggest the following reasons.
His position brings him kudos among the JW, community, he has
extended family in the org, and he is in business with several
other JWs. These things I believe, cause him to rationalise the
cognitive difference and cling to the delusion and continue to act
dishonestly, otherwise how would he sleep ?
Similar reasons I believe apply to some or all of the gb.
Good luck with your thesis
Unbelievable: http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/20680-may-2015-jw-broadcasting/?p=293965
This person is considering cashing in life insurance policies and avoiding fresh food to make more money for the society.
@Finn Sawyer, I saw that too. I thought that it had to be a joke. It is just too cultish to believe.
Wow, it feels like reading jehovahstrumpet.com!
@Ted . Your comment really Sums up the reasons why people stay in the truth. I have just returned from the meeting & Anyone who was there at the watchtower study CANNOT BELIEVE It Is the TRUTH when you read Pages 16-26 of Mar15th 2015 Watchtower.It talks about Types & Antitypes & WHAT WE USED TO BELIEVE & What we Believe Now . IT IS UTTER INSANITY to say the F& D Slave are giving Food at the Proper Time !!
@Pickled brain, I listened to Sam Herd’s talk again this morning from the 138th Gilead’s graduation talks and at 2 hours and 19 minutes, Herd starts talking about all the reading the Governing Body does. He said that most of their time is spent in reading what writing produces. He said it rolls out page after page after page and they spend even week-ends reading. He said it was Jehovah providing that food and when they get tired of reading, they prop themselves and keep on reading. That tells me that it’s the writing department at Bethel who are providing the food that “Jehovah” is providing and unlike the July 15, 2013 Watchtower said, it’s not the Governing Body who said that they were the slave providing the food, from God but it’s the writing department who is providing the food. That tells me that the whole thing is a fraud. Is Jehovah, the writing department? Is the writing department the slave that is providing the food at the proper time? Why can’t the rank and file put those pieces together and figure out that they are being made fools of and they are putting themselves in front of the camera all the time, letting those brain farts fly for all the world to hear and see???? Those men don’t do any research and they don’t write their talks and they don’t know what the Bible really says and they don’t conduct Bible studies and they don’t sacrifice anything. In that March 15, 2015 Watchtower study magazine that you were talking about on page 14, it says of the anointed ones “They count the cost of faithful service, realizing from the outset that their assignment will mean giving up many of the material advantages available in Satan’s world.” It also goes on to say that they wouldn’t be “materialistic” as well. As far as I can see, all the Governing Body do is give talks and read what the writing department writes and live high off the hog from donations.
When Ray Franz went to Bethel, he was very disappointed because he was led to believe that the Governing Body were the ones doing all the research to get the understanding of Scripture and then put it in the Watchtower but he found out that all the Governing Body was concerned about was policy, and Samuel Herd told us in that talk that that is true. All they do is give talks and worry about getting money to acquire more property and appointing and deleting elders and making more policies. They aren’t concerned with the Bible at all. They use every JWbroadcasting episode to make people give money to them and to make people feel guilty if they aren’t pioneers.
In that talk in the 138th Gilead graduation, Herd jokes that it’s persecution for the Lord’s sake to have their pictures taken so many times. Why would they be having their pictures taken all the time if they are humble servants? The Amish refuse to have their pictures taken for that very reason. They think it is not humble and that is why they dress plain and don’t wear make-up etc. and don’t drive cars and have tractors. They despise pride. The Governing Body are just the opposite. They love having their pictures taken like they are movie stars. Humility is not one of their strong suits.
@Anonymous, my thoughts exactly. When I was first fading just over 12 months ago, I wondered who was doing all of the journalism for the watchtower as you never saw any names like other readerships. That was a light bulb moment for me & I asked a brother who came up to shepherd us, who thought that he was more clever than the elders & that he could answer our questions as he often trolled apostate sites (his words). Anyway, I put it to him. “If the faithful slave are inspired, why are random people writing this bullshit?”. He couldn’t answer it because I don’t think that it had ever occurred to him either.
And if the GB are constantly reading, don’t they get boggled down with all of this overload of information? It must get to a point where they just go with it because it sounds good or just go with whatever their advisor think will keep the business afloat & keep them in the lifestyle that they’ve ALL become accustomed to. I say ALL because I think that it’s not just the GB but everyone that has their finger in the pie taking the cream off the top. As the saying goes.
I want there too at the watchtower and all I could think of was how preposterous it all sounded and was I the only one who thought so?!!
Was* grr
@Ted -I agree with your comment:
“Are they deluded or just evil ? if their actions continually produce evil results then the intent is irrelevant, the results are the same.”
As has been said “Ye shall know them by their fruits.”
The outcome is what matters, and I agree “deluded or evil” is a mildly interesting musing. However most of us have likely delivered bad stuff to the outcasts when we were on board, so even though we “only” followed orders, we still did.
As the physicist Steven Weinberg said:
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
SwimmingWild
@Swimming Wild. Your Quote about Good People to do Evil Things it Takes Religion is so true when you think of the Brutality of the Crusades & those burnt alive for translating the Bible & what ISIS are doing now in Torturing and Beheading anyone,Raping Christian women and Butchering anyone who doesn’t follow their brand of Islam.!!
The GB IMPOSE MENTAL CRUELTY on those who don’t agree with them 100% on Doctrine by calling them Apostate & Shunning them resulting in Suicide& Depression & Breaking up Families!!
Oh dear
You must be tearing your hair out at the
News that planning permission has been granted for the Britain branch move to new premises. Millions of pounds on new facilities. You are like a line voice in the wilderness. A kind of King Canute trying to stop a tidal wave of expansion. The funds will keep coming in and thousands of new Kingdom Halls will be constructed because needs have to be met.
@Lennylyx. There might be a Tidal wave of Expansion BUT ANYONE Familiar with Economics will Realise IT CANNOT Be SUSTAINED as ONCE Built it Costs Money to Maintain & as Now the GB are STRUGGLING for FUNDS it will all CRUMBLE. It Costs Tens of Millions to sustain TV Station,Massive Website,Buildings,RTO Offices,Manpower like Branch Servants,Circuit Overseers,GB, Helpers,Maintenance Staff,Etc & there will be JWs leaving in their tens of thousands as the END DOES NOT COME & New Light keeps changing!!
Pickled brain
Exactly what evidence do you have that there have been suicides depression and family break ups due to disfellowshipping by Jehovah’s Witnesses
Pickled brain
As the brother said during the broadcast, there were doomsday merchants forecasting the demise of the organisation when the decision was taken not to charge for literature and rely completely on VOLUNTARY donations
Pickled brain
You seem to be comparing the Jehovah’s Witnesses organisation to a typical profit seeking business
They don’t use typical company economic profit and loss models. Nobody is coerced into contributing
As the brother said during the broadcast you can attend meetings for years and not contribute a penny and no one would know about it.
There is no evidence the WTS relied on the sales of the magazines to finance its work. I suspect that when they went to the voluntary donation rule their cash flow actually increased, because it tied the donations to “what your heart motivated you to do” rather than how successful you were in selling magazines. It made it so that even inactive unproductive ones were obligated to donate from their heart. It was a stroke of genius.
Lennylynx, this comment makes me think you have either not been a JW long or have your head 100% in the sand. If you are this much in denial, I’m not even sure your comment is worth further reply.
What exactly do you find objectionable about my comments
If they are nonsensical to you, explain why.
I fully understand the ignorance of the comments thus far due your observing from the outside looking in. You seem to be suggesting that some kind of mind control is being used in order to persuade members to contribute
Financial matters are very rarely discussed at meetings
Every penny contributed is accounted for
No shareholders
No contributions invested in wonga loans etc no contributions being used in shady deals
No contributions financing mansions, limos and extravagant lifestyles etc. If funds were being misused the contributors to this blog would be the first to shout out about it
Lennylynx, I am not from the outside looking in. On the contrary, I was born into the JW’s, regular pioneered, went to Bethel and have attended meetings up until quite recently, although I only did so out of a feeling of obligation for the past 10 years or so. So, you might say I can see clearly on both sides. You however, are from the inside looking out, and are at a disadvantage, in my opinion.
The comment of yours to which I take exception is this:
Lennylynx says:
May 10, 2015 at 12:29 pm
Pickled brain
Exactly what evidence do you have that there have been suicides depression and family break ups due to disfellowshipping by Jehovah’s Witnesses
To be honest I have no personal experience knowing someone who has committed suicide, so I won’t comment on that.
But, to your point of disfellowshipping, having been involved in the religion my entire life I have known many families that were divided due to disfellowshipping or due to the JW culture, meaning how some “spiritually strong” JW families will distance and all but complete separate themselves from their other families members that aren’t in “the truth.” Parents disown their children. Children disown their parents. Siblings disown their flesh and blood. If you are really a JW you know what I am referring to you, and for you to deny it implies you are lying or are in denial. That is why I object to your comment.
To your other point, I also don’t believe funds are misused or misappropriated. In my experience I have never witnesssed or even heard about any type of financial corruption. Some seem to suggest the GB or bethelites line their pockets. I have never seen any evidence for that, though their sincerity and honesty in that regard is not in itself evidence for truth in other things.
finn sawyer,
Exactly what do you believe I’m in denial about.
Thus far I’ve given you a response based on FACTS of my experience and of others.
I believe I stated clearly what you are in denial about. For you to say the JW faith does not break up families isn’t really up for debate. It is a fact.
I for one , can give you many examples in my own family of suicides as well as depression, because of this cult!..
Simplemente esos vividores del CG (GB) no tienen madre!
@Lennylynx.
Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier, but my wife was in the same room watching TV & I couldn’t reply to you as she is a Loyal JW & if she saw me Logging on to this APOSTATE???? Website she would have reports me to the Elders & I would have been REPROVED & DISFELLOWSHIPPED if I continued on this website!! The same as you will be Dear Lennylynx if you continue on this site & are found out!!! SINISTER???
I could answer all your questions BUT I want to be GENTLE & KIND with you because 34 years ago I would have Replied like you to Myself!! Oh the Irony of it . BUT I CONGRATULATE You Lenny for associating with US APOSTATES !!! There is hope for you. TAKE CARE & Do Some Real Research???
YOU WILL LEARN in TIME, say 20 Years when Armageddon hasn’t come!!
“Exactly what evidence do you have that there have been suicides depression and family break ups due to disfellowshipping by Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
Lennylynx, there are many documented cases of suicide from shunning by Dr. Jerry Bergman, PhD, in a book called “Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Problem of Mental Health”:
(http://masonemerson.freeyellow.com/christianwitnessescom/id178.html)
You may also want to check some of these:
(https://www.google.com/search?q=suicides+from+shunning+jehovah%27s+witnesses&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=jehovah%27s+witnesses+suicides+from+shunning+)
I can’t believe that you would even question family break ups from disfellowshipping! All you need to do is read this website for confirmation. So many of the posters here are experiencing exactly that very situation.
No organisation can have any hope of surviving on a financial model based on what the heart motivates to do, yet Jehovah’s Witnesses do. there are no tithes and tithing. There are no lottery funds, garage sales, coffee mornings, fetes, passing around collection plates. there are no fees for marriages, funerals.
There are no fund raising charity events, bingo nights, charity car washes, charity quiz nights, ferret races, charity auctions, 50/50 raffles, bring and buy events, car wash, concerts, christmas fairs, dinner dance, easter egg hunts, handbag sale, jumble sales, easter egg hunts, fancy dress balls, ladies nights, talent competitions, cutest baby picture fund raising. No reliance on National Lottery. No Arts and crafts fair, collections, no giving up chocolate for a day, no dance-athons , no discos, no dress down days, no egg and spoon races, no fun runs, no face painting competitions, no sponsorships of any kind, no stalls, no talent contests, no three legged races, no sponsored walks, the list goes on and on and on.
In Britain we congregate in comfortable Kingdom Halls. Typical standard build include kitchen , disabled facilities, washroom facilities, comfotable seating(armrests) carpet etc. If the weather is cold the gas boilers come on automatically and heat the hall. There are adequate car park facilities as a must these days required by planning authorities. These halls have to be supported and they are supported by VOLUNTARY DONATIONS. Members of the public attend also, and they are not coerced into contributing. The literature costs money to produce and they are freely distributed.
One of the points made during the broadcast was the fact that thousands of new Kingdom Halls were needed to meet demand and that funds would be directed into this area. However much you despise the expansion will have no affect WHATSOEVER on the ever increasing numbers who are proud to be dedicated servants of Jehovah God.
&Lennylynx!!
All This Bad Association with US APOSTATES!! You are DISOBEYING the F&D Slave!! Naughty! Naughty! VOLUNTARY DONATIONS!! Don’t make me Smile!! I call it EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL!!
Anyway Larry if you believe The Truth sets you FREE& the GB are setting you Free… Here’s a Question?
Go & TELL the Elders in your Congregation you have been innocently commenting on this website & see their Response & THEN After Telling them Carry on Commenting on this website & go back to those same Elders & tell them you went against their Advice & see what happens to you . OH ITS GOOD to be FREE! Really Free from the FLIP FLOPPING of Doctrine of 7 American Men in New York. I Have a GOOD FEELING about you Lenny! I Feel you PROTEST TOO MUCH!! I find those who FANATICALLY Defend the GB a few Years Later End up finding out REAL FACTS & leave the Organisation!!
@Anonymous . Sorry I didn’t reply to your earlier comment & yes I agree that Samuel Herd did insinuate the GB read on what the Writing Department provides for them which is made up of the Great Crowd. I have been to the Watchtower Study today & I commented on NEW LIGHT Again on paragraph 6 on page 9 of March 15th 2015 WT about F&D Slave . When you read this article pages 7-11 ANY Rational & Logical Person will Realise the UTTER INSANITY of the CHANGING DOCTRINE of the GB!!! I Think the Brother taking the Watchtower is getting Suspicious of the IRONY in my Voice when I keep Referring to this LOVELY NEW LIGHT!!!
Sincere people will contribute wholeheartedly when they know they are doing it for God. The problem is that the organisation misrepresent the teaching of Jesus. The only way contributions were used in the first century were to help people in need. Christians only meet at their houses. Also Jesus taught that he is the only master and we are all the same. The GB misinterpret two sentences of the Bible to controll other people (all organised religions leaders find an excuse to justify their power). Even Paul called himself a slave applying Mathew 24:45. We are all slaves. Jesus gave us the freedom to test everything and not blindly obeying other humans.
You cannot base your life on other humans thoughts and ever changing opinions, that would be secure disaster.
From the JW videos you can see they are not just investing in what is strictly important for preaching. You see fountains, beautiful theatres, luxury apartments, pinky rings, rolexes, all this contrasting with many people struggling for the basic things. Is this Jesus mentality? NO. Would he be concerned building a headquarter/turisti resort like the one the JW are bulding? NO
The GB orders what we should or not should not believe, if we not agree with men and not God we are at risk of losing family relations for ever. JWs want freedom but deny freedom to others not because for any sins but just for not agreeing with 7 guys in america. The same guys have taught extremely embarrassing teachings (Pyramidology, 1874, 1925 and 1975, faithful slave applied to them instead to all Christians) for their entire history they have humiliated and ruined the life of thousand of innocente people. The fact that we are in 2015 shows that their entire propaganda of Armageddon being around the corner has been totally false. Time will pass and will make evident that they have been another example of human stupidity, selffishness and cruelty.
Hey Lennylynx..I take it as a good sign you are on here…you are searching and unafraid of what you will find..I was like that 3 yrs ago. I found this wonderful site and could not get enough! It truly opened my eyes. I lost my family, because I questioned them about the flips and “new light” crap, they got afraid because they had no answers. I am without a family, sad but feel relieved I am no longer being duped by a cult….keep in touch, we’ll get you there!
@lennylynx. I enjoyed your comment. How long have you been in the “truth?” I have been since the early 1960’s and this is the way it was at assemblies for many, many years. There were brothers and sisters who would stay up all night preparing food for the assembly the next day and we would have to pay for that food and the Society made money on that food that the brothers and sisters did the work for it for free. It was that way at all assemblies. During breaks, kids would go around offering ice cream bars and sodas for sale and potato chips etc. and they made money off of that plus there were always contribution boxes. When the society stopped with that, people were just charged the same amount (expense report read) and people put in the same amount that they did when they were buying the food.
The Society charges rent for assembly halls that already paid off for each assembly and the assembly hall that I go to, they have assemblies every week-end of the year and the Society gets from $5,000 to $10,000 from contributions that the brothers decide to send to the Society but actually the Society has told them in advance how much they want and that amount is read into the accounts report ahead of getting the money from the brothers and sisters and our assembly hall has been paid off for years.
All the Kingdom Halls were paying off loans for their remodels and the Society said a few months ago (like Lett alluded to) that those loans didn’t have to be paid off but in the second, third and fourth page of that letter, even if the loan had been paid off (ours was) the congregation was expected to keep sending in that amount anyway and our congregation is sending them $725 a month even though the hall has been paid off for years now. Regardless if any congregation had money in the bank, they were told that they had to send in any money over what it would take to run the hall for 3 months. Our congregation was saving up $15,000 for a badly needed new parking lot and our congregation sent them $7,500 of that money and now they will probably send in the rest because of Lett’s jwbroadcasting talk and the brothers and sisters will probably save up again for that new parking lot and I would bet you that because of that latest talk of Stephen Lett, they won’t ask it of the Society, even though the Society last year made it look like that would be the case. Like Lett said, what happened was the opposite of what they intended with that little scheme of theirs. The real reason they decided for congregations that they didn’t have to pay off their “loans” was because they were charging interest on those loans and the government was going to come down on them for that and look into their charity status. In other words, they were forced to do it that way but they were very deceitful when they only read the first page of that 4 page letter.
There is absolutely no accounting for where that money goes like what you said. That is what we would all like to know. If you listened to Lett’s talk, he said “a large” amount of the money that it takes to run everything comes from contributions. They have a lot of money in stocks and bonds. They do buy mansions and new cars and luxury apartment buildings unlike what you said.
They hide their money and they don’t account for any of it. You are right in that they don’t tithe because they don’t have to. People in the organization feel that they are supporting Jehovah when they give. They think they are helping God spread the gospel and it gives them a good feeling to do that but they are being deceived when that is what they think is happening with their money.
Jesus didn’t have a home and neither did the early apostles. When I first became a witness, we rented schools for assemblies. The Society owns every single Kingdom Hall and Assembly Hall in the whole world. If the Society were to fail, they’d be the richest corporation on the face of the earth and they know it.
Why should congregations pay off loans when they don’t even own the Kingdom Hall when they get done paying it off?
The only reason we don’t charge for the magazines is so that the Society doesn’t have to answer to the I.R.S. That is the only reason. When they stopped charging for the magazines, we were still expected to reimburse the Society for the literature and then when we placed the literature, we were supposed to ask for a donation and then that donation was supposed to go into the contribution box as well so in effect, they were getting paid twice for the same literature where before we paid for the magazines ($.50 for the pair) and then we’d ask the householder and we were supposed to put that $.50 into the contribution box as well so all along they’d be getting paid two times for the magazines and those magazines and books were produced at a profit because of free labor.
The Society has always made money on the literature. That is why they don’t have to sell lottery lottery tickets and sell cookies and have bingo parties. They make money on the literature and assemblies. That is how they started and that is how they got all their money way back when Charles Russell was running it.
They have so much money hidden away and nobody has any idea where it all goes. One thing is for sure. A lot of it is going to pay off child sex abuse lawsuits and you will never see that in any of the literature.
If you can come up with where all the money is going, I think we’d all love to see it.
Your comment has left me confused
Why not refer to “Pickled Brain’s” comment “There might be a Tidal wave of Expansion BUT ANYONE Familiar with Economics will Realise IT CANNOT Be SUSTAINED as ONCE Built it Costs Money to Maintain & as Now the GB are STRUGGLING for FUNDS it will all CRUMBLE. It Costs Tens of Millions to sustain TV Station,Massive Website,Buildings,RTO Offices,Manpower like Branch Servants,Circuit Overseers,GB, Helpers,Maintenance Staff,Etc & there will be JWs leaving in their tens of thousands as the END DOES NOT COME & New Light keeps changing!!”
This is the response of a person eager to see the organisation collapse, but strangely with no good motive for this endeavor. At least he’s right on a few observations. It does cost tens of millions to sustain TV Station,Massive Website,Buildings,RTO Offices. Manpower like Branch Servants,Circuit Overseers,GB members however survive on meager living expenses ( no salary, no pension, no holiday pay, no health insurance etc.)
Helpers,Maintenance Staff,Etc are all voluntary workers at Bethel facilities.
WHY IS IT THAT YOU DO NOT HEAR OF ANY NEWS REPORTS ABOUT FINANCIAL SCANDALS INVOLVING GOVERNING BODY AND JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES. THINK ABOUT IT, ITS THE KIND OF NEWS THAT ANY MEDIA OUTLET LIKE THE BBC (PANORAMA, WATCHDOG, OR ANY OF IT’S NEWS PROGRAMMES). SKY, ITV , CHANNEL 4 (DISPATCHES) CHANNEL 5 , ALL THE NEWSPAPERS INTERNET NEWS BROADCASTERS ALL OVER THE WORLD WOULD IMMEDIATELY JUMP ON. JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES ARE PROBABLY THE MOST TRANSPARENT ORGANISATION IN THE WORLD ON THESE FINANCIAL MATTERS. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE ORGANISATION TO GET AWAY WITH ANY FINANCIAL IMPROPRIETY. MEMBERS OF GOVERNING BODY HAVE NO PERSONAL INTEREST WHATSOEVER IN ACCUMULATING WEALTH.
Why do you have to shout? We are here to help you…calm down and listen to these fact based comments…you would not be able to talk to your elders this way so please have some courtesy
Yes, the Assembly Hall that was paid off but required about $10,000.00 every weekend was one of the things that really got my suspicions up!
We built our Assembly Hall before 1975 and I remember my father taking me there as a very young boy. (The CN Tower was going up at the same time and one old brother said, “Jehovah is going to knock that tower down!” Well… that’s just another prediction that never came true but we don’t like to mention those, do we?!?)
The audience would always gasp when the ‘accounts’ were read on Sunday morning (so that you had enough time to run to the contribution box and put a huge cheque in to cover the expenses) when the amount was always larger than the last time. It would grow every six months, from $2,000.00 to 3, 4 and when I left it was $10,000.00. They were obviously seeing how much they could squeeze out of us! Very clever!
I asked my P.O.,because he was the guy in charge of the accounts for our circuit (it now sounds like we were named after an electrical circuit to me!) what could possibly cost so much. He gave me that Pharisee-face and just said, “Things are very expensive!” As if I don’t pay for my own heat, water, electricity, maintenance, toilet paper, soap and other incidentals at home! I know what it costs to run a household and I can quickly estimate what it would cost to run an assembly hall. Except that they don’t pay property taxes! So they are cheaper than me, on a per capita basis!
I started to get pissed off from the emotion blackmail to pull as much money out of the brothers as possible. Oh, and I’ve see the tables of money at the Conventions! It’s always in a secret room with the most trusted brothers and we were told it was so they wouldn’t be robbed. Criminals are always the most careful about their money because they expect others to be as evil as they are themselves!
The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t need Bingo Halls and bake sales because they want more money than these stupid and trival opportunities present. They want it all! Your house, pension fund, stocks, bonds, insurance, gold, diamonds, everything! The World is going to end and this is how you pay for your entry to Paradise. You don’t need this stuff (but somehow they do).
The building work of Kingdom Halls and stuff is just a smokescreen. My mother believes that too. “They use all the money to build Kingdom Halls and Bethels”. So you donate so they can acquire more property and they never build one school, orphanage, hospital or even dig one well. It’s brilliant, really. Oh yeah, they don’t “charge” for weddings or funerals, but they expect a donation and a ‘green handshake’. Believe me, the elders know who the “big donators” are and they are treated with more respect than the people who don’t/can’t give as much.
I used to work hard, and I gave a lot of money to the Witness Organization because I believed in them. I wanted it to be true. I trusted that they were honest. Just ask the questions that I did, to the people that know, and see the answers you get. I’m sure you will get the same responses that I did and if you’re an honest person, you will feel how truthful they are treating you.
It’s hard for honest and trusting people to believe that there are others in this world that will completely decide you. Take a physiology course and you will find out how the psychopathic mind operates. We make it too easy for them to take advantage of us.
My wife can’t believe that the GB are benefiting from any of this. She believes that they don’t live in luxury. Well there isn’t an old guy alive today that wouldn’t love to have a powerful, cushy ‘job’, flying all over the world, having all of your needs and wants catered to, and having millions of adoring fans hanging off of your every word for a ‘hint’ of inspired prophecy, like these 7 bumblers have. The best part of the ‘job’ is you are never wrong, you can never really screw up and you never have to produce anything.
My father-in-law was like a mini-GB with his friends and realities in their small town. The JW religion is his hobby and he just loves it. All he gets out of it is the power and the pot luck meals at every KH build, drama rehearsal and other event. But that was enough for him! If he could have gotten himself and his ugly wife into Bethel that wouldn’t have been the whipped cream on his cake! A wonderful retirement with all of his worries gone. Of course, he never did get included in the ‘Big House’ and now things are looking too rosy for him.
Maybe Jehovah’s Loving Organization (as he likes to call it) will come and help him out, for all of his years of work? Don’t think so? Neither do I.
I appreciate your comments and as a former Jehovah’s Witness you have no doubt seen the pain and heartache in dis-fellow shipping situations. When a dis-fellowshipping takes place the ones who remain in the truth are not cold hearted individuals who just automatically shut off emotions. I’ve seen much tears and distress by those who do have to stop associating with the disfellowshipped person. My brother was disfellowshipped. He and I left the organisation at about the same time although I was not baptised. He was re-instated and we’re both “in the truth” now.
Disfellowshipping is based on Bible Scriptural procedure in the hope that unrepentant persons recognize that they need to try and get back into a relationship with God.
What I can’t do is live in denial that the Bible is wrong on this issue. As I’m sure you are aware, we adhere to Bible commands and principles.
If i deny the Bibles view then in effect I’m saying God is wrong. He’s been around longer than I have so why should I question his authority on the subject.
@lennylynx, Stephen Lett doesn’t know his Bible when he said that the Israelites gave to the tabernacle willingly. These are just some of the scriptures where the Israelites were required to give of their first fruits and money: Ezekiel 20:40; Deut. 14:28,29; Deut. 16:16-18, Exodus 30:11-14. And by the way, how in the world, did those Israelite “slaves” come up with all that gold and “first fruits” of their produce that they were supposed to donate to the priests, when they were living in a desert and a wilderness anyway? Did they plow and plant fields with seeds in the desert and wilderness so as to have all this flour and oils etc. when half the time they didn’t even have anything to eat except manna and quails and couldn’t find water except for when Moses would strike a rock or when he’d throw a magic tree into a river? I for one, can’t even believe the Exodus story in the first place, let alone believe that account about all the gold that the Israelites “willingly” gave to Moses for the priests and the upkeep of the tabernacle.
Another scripture that compelled them to give to the priests is at Lev. 26: 27-31 where it graphically said what would happened to them if they disobeyed God is that they would have to eat the flesh of their own children and God would lay their carcasses upon the carcasses of their dungy idols and God would abhor them.
That is kind of fear Lett was meaning when he said that you could go to the Kingdom Hall for 20 years and even though the brothers at the hall wouldn’t know if you didn’t put any money in the contribution box, that Jehovah would know. Even though he said you could do that and get away with it, you were “getting away with it” and in other words, you were committing some kind of crime against Jehovah. He didn’t have to come right out and say it but it was implied.
The first importance of the Society should be studying the Bible with people. You don’t even need an other books or Awakes and magazines for that, except for a Bible. That is all you need and anybody can go to any book store and buy a Bible. You don’t need huge factories with donated labor to make your own Bible in this day and age. A real “Christian” religion only needs the Bible to study with people. You don’t need thousands upon thousands of Bethelites and Bethels and the Governing Body and all those compounds that they are building.
In the days of the apostles, people met in homes to study the Bible. If the Witnesses think that every person on the face of this earth has to be preached at from a Witnesses before Armageddon comes, then they sure have an awful lot of people to get to as the population of the world is growing faster than the Witness population.
If you listen to Lett’s talk, he was projecting all this kingdom hall building to go years into the future. That sure doesn’t sound like Armageddon is coming any time soon.
They want everyone to think they need the money for expansion but there are no positive figures that anybody can see where they have money and where it goes. That is what we’d all be so curious to see. I think the real reason for that latest broadcast is that they are hiding their assets and they are afraid that that letter that they sent out last year gave people the impression that they didn’t need the donations and obviously the donations dropped because of that letter and so that broadcast was to straighten out their little scheme that backfired.
I am sure that the rank and file will go without meals if they have to so that they can fill the insatiable needs of a very greedy and secretive organization known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Pennsylvania and England.
These people are no different than any other religion that is there as a money making business off of the back of people who think they need religion to get into either heaven or the paradise earth after death.
Religion breeds fear and feeds off of it. That is all it does. If they can come up with a few scriptures to throw fear into people, people will fall for it.
All it takes is for people to believe in a God and that that God is watching every move they make and if they don’t make all the right moves, God is going to zap them, either now or at Armageddon or in a hell fire.
Religion gives some comfort for people, but most of the comfort comes from their giving to the church in the idea that they are giving to God and the Watchtower is a prime example of using that fear to trick them out of their money just like all the rest of the churches do.
They all think theirs is the only true religion. The Witnesses are stupid to think that out of the thousands of religions in the world, that they just happened to fall into the only one true religion.
“Exactly what evidence do you have that there have been suicides depression and family break ups due to disfellowshipping by Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
Lennylynx, my last comment seems to have disappeared, but here we go again. There are documented cases of Jehovah’s Witnesses committing suicide because of shunning by Dr. Jerry Bergman, PhD in his book called “Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Problem of Mental Health”:
http://masonemerson.freeyellow.com/christianwitnessescom/id178.html
You may wish to look at some of these links, also:
https://www.google.com/search?q=suicides+from+shunning+jehovah%27s+witnesses&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=jehovah%27s+witnesses+suicides+from+shunning+
I can’t believe that you would question family break ups from disfellowshipping! All you need do is read this website – most of the posters here are experiencing precisely that.
@Lennylynx. Lenny what you are doing now is BRILLIANT!! You are Ignoring the F& D Slave & Engaging in Conversation with Apostates!! I Feel you are getting a TASTE of Freedom!!!
@Lennylynx . If the GB are SO HONEST print an Annual Accounts Report for the World to see on their Website like all other Charities!!
Lenny your Question about suicides . Well it HURTS ME to say this But my Best Friend who was an Elder & Regular Pioneer Committed SUICIDE by Hanging Himself!!
He Had Suffered Major Depression for Years & felt he LET Jehovah & Congregation down when he came off pioneering. Another Elder I know of in Devon Gassed himself in his Garage by feeding a hose pipe from the Exhaust & it was on the Local BBC News 10 years ago. Another Elder who had been married for over 30 years Hanged himself who I knew personally . I know of 2 others who killed themselves & At our branch visit 3 weeks ago in England Mark Sanderson mentioned a Regular Pioneer Sister who had pioneered for 7 years who put a note in the Contribution box saying she was contemplating SUICIDE because she had been sexually abused as a child!!
I know Hundreds in many congregations who are SEVERELY DEPRESSED,But call it Chronic Fatigue,Fibromyalgia or M.E. Many are on Anti Depressants. Please Read WATCHTOWER December 1st 2000 pages24-28 which is about a Gilead Graduate who was a Missionary for 20 years & Branch Servant of 4 African Countries & friend of Nathan Knorr(President of WT) who had a Complete Mental Breakdown & was on Anti Depressants for 25 years & needed Professional Psychiatric Help.
Lenny Please Wake Up & SMELL the ROSES!!
I Like your Loyalty & your Spirit!! YOU WILL MAKE A Really GOOD APOSTATE !!
Pickled Brain
My response to comments on suicide were in answer to the issue of disfellowshipped individuals. you have now taken it to a level of mental health issues of which I am no expert and I’m pretty sure you have no expertise either. Many people in all walks of life commit suicide, even celebrities, those in the spotlight who seem to have it all, Robin Williams, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Kurt Cobain Tony Scott, . I tend to steer clear of commenting on issues I have no depth of explanation particularly the web of complexity in mental health issues.
Pickled Brain
I stumbled across this website whilst trying to get on JW.org. However this is my first and final venture on this site. I sincerely hope that you all reconsider and review the reasons you all despise Jehovah’s Witnesses. Obviously I do not know what it is you all believe in, but I would strongly suggest that you all not rely on false and biased reports on Jehovah’s Witnesses. Try and get to the facts. What are your beliefs based on? I wish you all well.
OMG Lenny!!! False & biased reporting comes from the Society. Look up propaganda techniques on google & see how boxes that the WT ticks. Then please come back & make a response to what I have asked.
I meant to say how many boxes that the Society ticks.
Lenny, where in the world do you get the idea that we who comment on this web site despise Witnesses? A lot of us commenting here are still in good standing and some still go to meetings. That is the last thing in the world you should get from this web site. I care deeply about all the Witnesses who are still associated, and that includes my own children and relatives and very close friends.
It kills me to see them being taken advantage of and being lied to and just like you, are believing the lies from the Society that us “apostates” hate Witnesses. That could not be further from the truth.
Up until a year ago, I was you. I believed all the lies about apostates too until I tried to prove them wrong and found out that it was I that was wrong. If you can find anything false about anything anybody has said here, tell us and Lloyd. He has always said if anybody can prove him wrong and that God really is directing the Society that he will close down this web site. I for one would love for you to prove me wrong so that at the end of the day, I can find out that I didn’t waste my one and only life on a false demonic religion after all. Please prove to us that God is actually directing the organization. That is all we want to see and we will be happy.
If you can’t do that, then the best thing for you to do is to not look at anything that smacks of “apostate” so that you can stay in your happy place. Once you try and prove “apostates” wrong, you might find out that it was the Society that was misleading you and you might be coming back here and commenting that you were glad that you just happened on this web site quite by accident.
Anonymous, do you by chance attend the Rosenburg assembly hall? Its really none of my business, so I beg your pardon if this question is inappropriate. If so, we might know each other. Contact me on FB if you want to reply.
Charles Costante
Do you really expect me to take seriously the findings of someone who was brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness but could not live up to its teachings.As I’m sure you are well aware judging by the comments on this blog ,former Witnesses have a tendency to be biased in their views and at times harbor ill will and resentment
@Lennylynx. I Love it when Someone defends the GB . I do think it does Make the Debate here more Enjoyable. Lenny you are A GOOD HEARTED Person who I feel is Naive & you may feel I am wrong saying this But when Armageddon doesn’t come in 20 years I hope this website is still here & You have Woken up & I think you will . If you were REALLY CONVINCED the GB had the Truth you WOULD NOT be DISOBEYING the GB by coming onto this Site . Take Care I feel there is hope for you my fellow Apostate in Arms.
Pickled Brain Can I ask why you are putting a date of twenty years?
Sincere Witnesses do not serve Jehovah with a date in view.
@Lennylynx. This gets better & Better !! You are Getting Drawn in to this conversation. 5,10,20,30 years it doesn’t matter to me But it does to the F&D Slave as ALL of Their DATES HAVE FAILED.., 1874, 1878,1910,1914,1915,1918,1925,1975,within the 20th Century etc,etc
When Jesus inspected all religions in 1919 the Latest Book (Finished Mystery) had just been published.It is important to read it as Jesus chose JW Religion over all others because of food they were giving at The Proper Time!! But Until 1927 the Bible Students believed the Pyramid of Giza forecast many of these dates. NONE of THESE DATES came True so if Jehovah was giving The GB Holy Spirit to Give Food at the Proper Time ?? Why would Jehovah LIE to the GB about these DATES?? Or is it JUST A BIG FRAUD & SCAM by the GB!!
Look at Rutherfords 10 Room Mansion Beth SARIM mentioned in Proclaimers Book & The Pyramid of Giza & all those False Dates are in the Proclaimers Book !! Read it cover to cover & all footnotes. Lenny please Don’t Waste Your Life Slaving for 7 American Men !! Read the Bible by all means ; Live a moral life; Help Others; provide for your Family & you will be truly happy!!
I wish you well for your future.
Lennylynx, the only person that can prove what is true to you is yourself. “Make the truth your own” is perhaps the best advice anyone can give. You must be willing to do research outside what the Watchtower publishes and it doesn’t all need to be “apostate.” Think about a particular question you may have. Go to the library, read peer-reviewed scientific papers and original historical documents and most importantly, take the time to compare the past and current writings of Watchtower from its own literature. For example, to your point about the scriptural nature of disfellowshipping, not even the FD&S thought it was scriptural until 1952 or so. Did Jehovah change his mind? In any case the grounds for scriptural disfellowshipping is defined however the FD&S sees fit and if you doubt that then just dare to disagree with them and start asking a lot of questions.
You are right about many “apostate” sites being less than credible, in my opinion. One I do recommend though is JWFacts.org
Finn Sawyer
I havent always been a Witness. Ive looked at Evolution etc.I have made an informed decision.
There are many “enlightened” changes made by the organisation throughout the past century.
In 1976 it was not permissible for Witnesses to smoke. Prior to that it was allowed. Was that enlightenment
When it was a practice recommended by doctors not long before that.
How about the blood issue? In view of the facts surrounding its dangers and the way the medical profession are now taking seriously HLC advice on blood issue, Is this Enlightenment, its based on scripture.
How about the world’s morals on sexual matters, Would you say now its out of control. is it enlightenment.
However much you keep criticizing the organisations refining of scriptural truth it does not alter the fact that Jehovah has set a day in which he will bring an end to man’s rule and HE has said in the Bible that day will not be changed or delayed
You must be willing to do research outside what the Watchtower publishes and it doesn’t all need to be “apostate.” Think about a particular question you may have. Go to the library, read peer-reviewed scientific papers and original historical documents and most importantly, take the time to compare the past and current writings of Watchtower from its own literature. For example, to your point about the scriptural nature of disfellowshipping, not even the FD&S thought it was scriptural until 1952 or so. Did Jehovah change his mind? In any case the grounds for scriptural disfellowshipping is defined however the FD&S sees fit and if you doubt that then just dare to disagree with them and start asking a lot of questions.
You are right about many “apostate” sites being less than credible, in my opinion. One I do recommend though is JWFacts.org
@Lennylynx, how can you justify selling off thousands of KH’s in the US that have been paid for to put luxury KH’s in the US & the UK? Buying luxury apartments to house those working for the Society with tennis courts & spa’s etc when you have African Bros starving when they have walked for miles to a convention & no food even offered to them but a patronising, ‘we won’t eat in front of them’ sentiment from the visiting delegates. I was astonished at the lack of charity at that African assembly. If they never did it any other time at least they could have done it there, just once.
When Brother Lett mentioned the building of thousands of kingdom halls , he meant worldwide.
From my congregation here in Wales a single brother and a married couple have have used all their financial means to to engage in Kingdom Hall construction work in numerous African countries. All Kingdom Halls have “Worldwide Work” contribution boxes located normally out of the way at the back of halls. In my kingdom hall the contribution boxes at at the rear and at the opposite side to the entrance and exit doors.
Grace
The Preaching work is the is the urgent focus. Highly skilled volunteers ( Architects, iT personnel, Engineers, Building Personnel from “developed countries”(US Uk etc) as well as local skilled brothers and sisters are being deployed in countries throughout the whole earth to cater for all brothers and sisters. I myself hoping to volunteer my time and expense to assist in the new Britain branch relocation building work now that planning is approved. why not look into JW.org yourself and see the expansion taking place. The videos there are not fictional they are real events.
@Lenny, you sidestepped my question. KH’s don’t put food in starving peoples belly.
Yes Grace I know
Jehovah makes sure His people are provided with the necessities but not always the wants of life.
in fact he guarantees the necessities of life.Whether by helping to use our initiative and skills to provide a living or by the kind, voluntary assistance of brothers and sisters. We are encouraged to use the avenue of prayer also to help us in any given situation. Prayer has never failed me.
Thank you Lenny for replying in nice manner to me. I know that if Witnesses let themselves they can have debate.
My best friend (supposedly) for 20yrs recently dumped me because I was mentioning things that bothered me about the Society’s handling of matters, especially the child abuse policies that they refuse to change. This meant a lot to me because we had something happen to our child (age 4) which I won’t go into. My friend decided that our friendship was to end there because I was sounding like an Apostate. This hurt me deeply but it made me wake up & see how fickle friendships are with Witnesses.
I hope that you looked at the the list of propaganda techniques that I asked you to do. I’d be interested to see your perspective on that.
lenny lynx,
Your fellow JWs are contemplating stopping buying fresh food, in order to put more money in the contribution box! They are already squeezed dry!
Meanwhile, they are buying a five bedroom five bathroom “mansion” in your neck of the woods!!!! Did you know that? It’s true.
the IBSA, the charitable branch of the WTBTS in Britain, purchased a £900,000 mansion along the coast in Wales, in an area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. A few months later, they beg for more money!
Tell me please, what theocratic purpose does this house satisfy?
Please do your research and join us in helping people escape from the cult which is the WTBTS.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
@lennylynx, all contribution boxes in Kingdom Halls are at the back of the hall and you are right in that nobody is overtly “charged” to attend meetings. That money should go to building Kingdom halls in poor countries but Lett said that no matter how poor you are, you should still contribute the building of your kingdom hall. But the thing is, those halls don’t belong to those people in the end, even though when people put their money in the contribution box for the world wide work that is what they are led to believe.
Those buildings belong to the Society instead. It is only making a comfortable place for them to meet but they could just as well rent a place to meet themselves like what we used to do when I first became a Witness in the 60’s. They are not allowed to just put their money together and buy a place anymore. The difference is that any kingdom hall that is being built today is going to belong to the Society. The brothers are expected to pay for it initially but in the end, it belongs to the Society in their real estate portfolio. Even when they get it “paid off”, they are expected to keep paying the same amount forever. That is just a different name for a tithe.
That is all it is. It’s a scheme to acquire free real estate in the guise of religion.
@Lennylynx . I Bet your ENJOYING this OPEN DISCUSSION Better than Any Watchtower Study where any Opposition Talk & you would be spoken to by the Elders!!
You mentioned the GB use Brothers who are Architects, Engineers etc. AMAZING all these Jobs need 5 year UNIVERSITY DEGREES!!
Hmmmm???
Pickled Brain
The result of the organisation focusing on the Preaching Work is that hundreds of thousands are getting baptized every year. This includes people from all backgrounds. If they happen to be skilled professionals in their former life, who am I to question that. Remember the Disciple Luke was a Physician ( Doctor)
Matthew was a Tax Collector
Apostle Paul was a trained Lawyer etc etc …..its now a case of yawn yawn I’m afraid
At the end of the day whether you choose to believe it or not as the scripture says they are his master’s belongings. Is there any one person on earth that you believe is ultimately going to inherit the organisation’s property and money.? some kind of typical charismatic TV evangelical cult figure that will eventually pounce on the the organisations belongings. i repeat no one is making a profit out of the organisation or living a life of luxury. All money is put into Kingdom Preaching. No Palaces (Pope, Archbishops, Monarchy),
No mansions, swimming pools , Limos ( TV evangelists scamming the flock)
No purchasing of shares in Bank stock, armament companies, unscrupulous companies, in fact no trading whatsoever, every penny is put into the Kingdom Preaching work
@lennylynx, do you have any proof that all the money is going towards the preaching work or are you just taking Lett’s word for it? We would all like to believe that what they are saying is true but there’s never any accounts reports and after all, in the end, even though you would like to say that all that money belongs to Jehovah, in the end, it was the hard work of the rank and file who earned that money and they should be able to know that they aren’t being taken advantage of when it comes to where that money is going. They earned it and they deserve to know where it’s going and it should go towards a new Kingdom Hall but the money goes to the Society instead. You might claim that that money is Jehovah’s but that doesn’t mean that Jehovah and the Society are the same thing which is what you implied. I would call that a clever scheme to get free real estate from trusting and gullible people. Have you got any real evidence that what I have said here, isn’t true? I would like to know that it isn’t true but I fear that it is true and so please prove me wrong. That is what that 4 page letter was all about. Even though it made it look like the loans were paid off, they were to keep paying the same amount forever and forever so that “loan” would never be paid off and in the end the Hall would belong to the Society. That is deceitful.
If a Kingdom hall is sold and that congregation wants to rebuild another Kingdom Hall, they should be able to use that money from the sale to build another Kingdom Hall, don’t you think? But that’s not the way it works. The money from that sale of that Kingdom Hall or Assembly Hall goes to the Society and that very same congregation has to come up with the money all over again for that new Kingdom Hall every month in the form of a “donation” and even that new Kingdom Hall will belong to the Society even though those brothers and sisters build it and pay for it with their own money and donate their labor for it.
One thing that I really loved about not going to meetings anymore is the $80 that I can now put towards my bills and I don’t feel even one ounce of guilt over it. The thing that saddens me though is that now my husband puts money into the contribution box and won’t even tell me how much he puts in but at least I am not afraid anymore of those seven self-appointed “Popes”.
You might not call them Popes, but they are. They live in their own little world of “popedom” in their own little money grubbing minds and the rank and file worship at their feet. Not me. I won’t worship at their feet even one more minute. You can worship them and support them and their money making schemes if you like and if that is what makes you happy, go for it. You will probably be one of the 30% of the congregation who aren’t suffering from some kind of depression and stress and hopefully you aren’t stupid enough to give up meals for the “worldwide” work.
lennylynx, I agree entirely with you about the generosity
of the bros, and sisters. This is why Rutherforde was able
to build a ten room mansion in sunny California with two
16 cylinder Cadillacs ( chauffeur driven ).
There he spent the winters while the generous hearted bros,
in snowbound N,Y, kept the operation working and the cabbage
Coming in.
He concocted the tale that the place was for Abraham and Moses
and other ancients. The judge claimed to be a “Bluffer” and that
was one of his best. Anyway the place is sold now, so if these
ancients do turn up their digs won’t be so ostentatious.
People commenting here have spent an accumulation of thousands
of years in this org, and are wise to their propaganda. It’s great to
have you join us and to see the org, hasn’t been able to censor your
right to freedom of information. Best wishes keep commenting.
“Do you really expect me to take seriously the findings of someone who was brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness but could not live up to its teachings.As I’m sure you are well aware judging by the comments on this blog ,former Witnesses have a tendency to be biased in their views and at times harbor ill will and resentment”
Jw’s fall back on this strawman argument almost every time they are faced with the hard facts or should we say TTATT. Absurd reasoning to say the least.
If jw’s truly believe that any ‘former’ member is automatically labeled as ‘unfit’ or ‘could not live up to’ the ‘organizations’ policies they should be willing to extend that assumption upon any former member of ANY organized effort, not just to offer protection to their chosen cause the WTBTS Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
In every other field of endeavor ‘former members’, participants, are eagerly sought after as experts in their fields. Why? Because they actually lived the life, they have first hand experience. They are not simply outsiders making guesses or assumptions about their former lives, they are relating actual experiences.
Just try watching any sporting event like Nascar, Tennis, Football, Baseball, you name it, in the forefront are those who played or participated in the game, usually for many years. Why? Because they know what they are talking about.
Why jw feel like they win some sort of word game by trying implicate that the former member was not good enough at the former game, and somehow infer that one can completely dismiss the comments or views of that former member is an argument that does not stand up to everyday practice in the real world. It is a last ditch effort to cast a pall or wet blanket over the former members views without the slightest effort by the jw to prove what the ex member has said is untrue. Just make the wild accusation that he or she could not meet the level of performance and all the years of sacrifice, experience mean zero.
It is the last ditch effort to besmirch the former member and not really address the ‘facts’. It is a classic get out of jail card, that jw’s pull almost every time they are faced with the really hard questions.
@Lennylynx. Come on Lenny I think YOU ARE Quite Enjoying this Debate were Having. Come & Join us !!
You’ll have More FUN with us Apostates!!
@Lennylynx. Jehovah has guided me with Holy Spirit(well if the GB can claim spirit Direction)… to say that you are now DISFELLOWSHIPPED for talking too long with Apostates & I now Baptise you , Lenny as a fully Fledged APOSTATE!!!
@David . I missed your comment earlier . You show a LOT of Insight into the Organisation & Common Sense . enjoyed your observations!
Your views remind me of Benjamin McLane Spock a renowned Child expert or something along those lines. He was the first pediatrician to study psychoanalysis to try to understand children’s needs and family dynamics. why don’t you read up on him.
Apparently he is now criticized for ruining an entire generation. As a journalist called lev Grossman wrote in Time magazine ” There’s nothing like the passage of time to make the World’s smartest people look like complete idiots”
“Do Not put your trust in nobles or the son of earthling man” ( wrote the psalmist)
I trust Jehovah and the organisation he is using .
There is no other organisation that Jehovah is using. Not even you can come up with an organisation that Jehovah is using today.
Which other organisation bears his name, uses his name and truly preaches his word.
If you want to trust professor bergman or whatever his name is its up to you. I’m afraid it’s a case of yawn yawn………….
@Lennylynx Well Lenny the GB are better than Mr Spock the GB have RUINED,what 3,4,5 or 6 Generations & I glad you define a Generation as about 30 or 40 years like Jesus did when he prophesied the Last Days of Jewish system in 33 C.E & ended in70 C.E about 37 years Later …. A TRUE MEANING of What GENERATION is !! I always prefer the words of Jesus than the Ever CHANGING Interpetation of Scripture of 7 Yankee Men in Brooklyn !! Lenny I BET YOU LOVE THIS OPEN & FREE Discussion where there is no fear of Repercussions from the Elders if you Disagree with the GB. We Can Disagree & we will NOT SHUN YOU !! True Freedom like Jesus spoke Freely to Judas & the Pharisees & didn’t stop his Disciples either talking toJudas & the Pharisees, DONT you LOVE that Freedom to Dispute Freely !! Refreshing & we can all remain friends!!
Soooooo True!!! Lenny what is YOUR definition of a generation?
@lennylynx, You should do some research too in the 1980 Watchtower Feb. 1, page 11 where it admitted that the name Jehovah was invented by a Catholic monk in the 1200’s A.D. It never was in the Bible so Witnesses are lying when they repeat the story that Witnesses have restored God’s name of Jehovah in the Bible.
@ lennylynx“ Exactly what evidence do you have that there have been suicides depression and family break ups due to disfellowshipping by Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
Just picture yourself being avoided by your own family for the rest of your life? Do you think you could be at risk of having depression? Do you think it is a remote possibility?
Think of a child being baptised at 5 or 6 and decide to leave the Watchtower at 10 for not agreeing on the overlapping generation (crazy) teaching or that Christians should not speculate on God’s word (like the JW excellent in doing it). That child at 10 will have to live every day with the sharp pain of not sharing her best moments with his/her brother, with JW cousins. She will not be invited at weddings. She will be treated as a criminal, as dead. Do you think in this circumstances you can fall on depression?
It is strange how people that will be eaten by birds (according to the lunatic JW teachings) respects JW family members, and they which should reflect Jesus love can ruin a human beings existence.
David
Your comments are confusing me or is it that I need to get some sleep. Is the hypothetical child of 10 disfellowshipped , has he left of his own accord, or what has he been disfellowshipped for.
If he has left of his own accord at age 10, then it is unlikely that the parents will disown him. Legally speaking it’s against the law. We do tend to obey laws you know. And on that rather silly response I must bid you all good night as the discussions are bordering on the ridiculous now
Lenny, please don’t go away. David did pose a legitimate situation. I had a friend who’s daughter was baptised at 12, when she was 16 she was date raped then got disfellowshipped for it to serve as an example. She attempted suicide at 17 & was put into the local Mental Ward for a month. She is still disfellowshipped & has very low self worth but no one in the ‘truth’ is allowed to help her because of her situation. How can that be healthy spiritually, physically or mentally for anyone?
@lennylynx if you are confused please revise JW policies. If you simply want to leave the JW because you no longer agree with JW teachings you’ll be shunned for life.
A person at 18, at 30 or 40 should have the basic right to change believes of view point because of maturity. You are a JW now because of this basic right. But this is impossible for JW. Once I left the organisation no JW as ever contacted me. I am the same person, with good standards, with the same faith and love for God.
The GB has put an invisible gun on my head either I submit to the governing body or I cannot see my loved family members and friends. I have done completely nothing wrong, just decided to leave to live according to my values and conscience. I hope this is clear and you are not still confused. There many experiences of many who have returned JW just because they cannot leave without seeing love ones. I know personally a sister who wanted to be reinstated to assist is dying parent. Is this Cristian?
@@ lennylynx“
“Do you really expect me to take seriously the findings of someone who was brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness but could not live up to its teachings.As I’m sure you are well aware judging by the comments on this blog ,former Witnesses have a tendency to be biased in their views and at times harbor ill will and resentment”
I am currently living following Christians standards, and my love for God and his Son is the same if not bigger.
Because of the love of the Truth you cannot continue supporting the JW religion. The GB polluted Christ teachings and want me to make the same mistake.
The majority of things that I learned when I become JW are now replaced. They were replaced because they were false. They were the ideas of one/two men that think they know more then God.
I understand that you are taught that those who leave must be wicked. But it is not true. I left because I love sincerity and truth.
@Lennylynx . David has a point an Elder friend whose children were baptised at 12& 13 then got Disfellowshipped at 16&17 were never spoken to for the last 35 years !! Cruel or What , Child Baptism is NOWHERE in the Greek Scriptures . Timothy was 19 or 20 but was an Exception & Jesus was 30 well past the Bloom of youth!! Let’s follow Jesus Example not 7 Lousy American Con Men who MESS up People’s Minds & Lives & Families!!
In the first century, some Jewish Christians still wanted to follow the Law. (Acts 21:17-20) But Paul corrected them and helped them see that it was Jesus’ sacrifice, not animal sacrifices, that made forgiveness of sins possible. (Hebrews 10:5-10) Many of these Jewish Christians accepted Paul’s counsel and changed their thinking. We can learn an important lesson from their example. We need adjustments just as the first century christians, we need to accept them humbly. It will always be like this until we rieach perfection. Proverbes 4:18
SO MANY COMMENTS on this Subject! I knew when Stephen Lett BEGGED for Money that it would touch a RAW NERVE with many financially struggling brothers & Sisters. Especially when the GB don’t follow Apostle Paul’s Example of working as a TENTMAKER so as not to be a Burden on the Brothers & Paul Had it Tough!! FLOGGED,STONED,Shipwrecked, in danger from Wild Beasts & Highwaymen!! The GB members travel on Air Conditioned Planes,Cars,Trains & then live in Air Conditioned Hotel Rooms& have Cleaners,Cooks,Laundrymen,Waiters,Car Mechanics& Chauffeurs ,Dentist,Doctors etc to look after them PAID BY DONATIONS BY US who have to pay our TAXES!! Hard Working Brothers&Sisters ARE ANNOYED!!!