Watchtower's plans to relocate the UK Bethel to Essex have received a mixed response
Watchtower’s plans to relocate the UK Bethel to Essex have received a mixed response

An Essex newspaper has reported that Jehovah’s Witnesses will likely be relocating their UK headquarters from Mill Hill, London to what is currently a “run-down car breakers yard” in Chelmsford.

The 50-acre site, currently known as “Temple Farm,” has been bought by Watchtower’s UK arm, the International Bible Students Association (IBSA), pending planning permission being accepted.

The proposed move has received a mixed response from locals, with councillor Roy Whitehead telling the Essex Chronicle that he would be “very sad” if it wasn’t welcomed. “We are looking at and confusing two different things,” he said. “It’s a business, a place for printing their literature, it’s not about people who don’t like them knocking on their doors.”

The councillor’s comments came in the wake of a poll, conducted by the same paper, which revealed that a third of readers objected to the plans. But it has since emerged that the discontent could run even deeper than first thought, since the dubious poll allowed the potential for Witness supporters to vote multiple times.

The Essex Chronicle’s coverage also reveals considerable confusion over what the proposed move will entail, with the editors clearly clueless as to what Jehovah’s Witnesses practice or believe.

Council leader Roy Whitehead has spoken out in defence of Watchtower's plans
Council leader Roy Whitehead has spoken out in defence of Watchtower’s plans

For example, the paper published the reflections of one reader who wrongly asserted: “These people ACTUALLY believe that planet earth is only around 6000 years old.” The owner of a local skip company was also quoted as saying: “It’s more jobs and from that point of view it does away with a site that is heavily contaminated with car battery and acid.”

Witnesses actually teach a version of Creationism in which the Earth is said to be much older than six thousand years. And how a religious organization that operates solely on a volunteer basis could be construed as bringing “more jobs” to the community will be a mystery to many.

Not helping matters is the Chronicle’s seeming willingness to capitulate to Watchtower’s PR machinery, with the publishing of a heavily biased and misleading article “Ten facts you may not know about Jehovah’s Witnesses as they come to Chelmsford.” Among other things, the article informed the paper’s readers that the bible “dictates” against blood transfusions and that “Kingdom Halls coordinate voluntary missionary projects in third world countries.”

Sub-standard journalism aside, what the good people of Chelmsford CAN look forward to is the following:

  • Increased door-knocking – Though the new headquarters will not be directly involved in evangelical work, it will be staffed by approximately 800 “bethelites” who will all be assigned to the local congregations – thus swelling the local population of Witnesses. And the more Witnesses there are per congregation, the more frequently the preaching territory will be worked. As one local elder commented, “there are 800 people coming – where are we going to put them! We already have about 100 per each of our Chelmsford congregations – it’s going to be good fun.” At least some of this “fun” will come at the expense of the Saturday mornings of local residents.
  • Increased visitors – There are currently 1,558 congregations in Britain, and you can be sure that most of these will want to arrange coach trips to the new facilities once these are finished. As Watchtower spokesman Paul Gillies remarked, “we do organise tours to show people around the locations. As a charity relying on donations, Jehovah’s Witnesses will come from all over Britain to see what their money is being spent on.” But, contrary to Gillies’ assertion that pilgrims will “stay in local hotels and spend locally,” locals should not bank on a tourism boom. Witnesses spurn the pursuit of money and further education in favor of “seeking first the kingdom.”
  • Immaculate buildings and landscaping – If approved, the new headquarters will be finished to a very high standard, and will certainly be an aesthetic improvement on the current rundown wasteland. That said, Watchtower is currently closing down and selling off branch properties at a rate never before seen, so there are no guarantees that the Britain Branch won’t one day experience the same fate. And as a registered charity the Witnesses will benefit from a number of tax breaks, including significantly reduced business rates.
  • Same cult, but based locally – Jehovah’s Witnesses are increasingly gaining a terrible reputation for their various unethical practices and teachings which include (1) shunning relatives who leave the organization, (2) abstinence from certain medical treatments involving blood, (3) mishandling of child abuse, (4) negligence regarding domestic abuse and (5) stigmatization of higher education for teenagers. If Watchtower’s plans succeed, Chelmsford will have the dubious privilege of becoming the UK hub for promoting and exporting the aforementioned.

 

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Further reading…

104 thoughts on “Proposed new UK Chelmsford bethel receives mixed response

  • February 3, 2014 at 6:54 am
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    I can certainly understand why the society want to relocate. Mill Hill is a very expensive area, and the land alone will be worth a fortune, when they sell it. Once again they are seen to be reducing their overheads. Time will tell if they close the branch down any time soon. My guess is that it would be one of the last to go.

  • February 3, 2014 at 7:08 am
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    I have already sent an e.mail to Coun. Whitehead and the Chelmsford Planning Dept. It is pasted below. I have also contributed to the comments in the Chelmsford Chronicle following the articles.

    There is a guy who claims he is not a JW but admires their ‘adroitness and integrity’, named Podobear who makes increasingly loony and hysterical comments. He spouts in a marginally contorted version of KingdomHallSpeak.

    Maybe a flurrly of informative e.mails about the horrors of the JW outfit will set the planning authority thinking. Anyway, here’s my letter. I followed it, on advice with a note to explain that I am a ‘volunteer’ (not a ‘member’ – legal terms and all that) with AAWA.

    From: Rowland Nelken 2 February 2014

    To: The Leader of Chelmsford City Council and its Planning Committee.
    THE PLANNING APPLICATION BY THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES FOR BUILDING A PRINTING WORKS AT GALLEYWOOD.
    I note, in the Chelmsford Chronicle of Thursday, 30 January, that Councillor Roy Whitehead expressed dismay at the disquiet expressed by some residents at the possible establishment of a Jehovah’s Witness printing works at what is currently a derelict site at Galleywood. Councillor Whitehead explained how the issues of evangelism and business had been mistakenly confused.
    In the world of Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, printing and evangelism are two sides of the same coin. Their magazines and books have been the main tools in spreading the Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. Without them the ‘door knockers’ would be naked.
    I write as a member of AAWA or the Associates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses, a global network composed largely of ex Jehovah’s Witnesses who feel moved to warn the wider world of what lies behind the seemingly respectable exterior of this religious organisation.
    For many years many papers have published pictures and articles that have presented the Jehovah’s Witnesses in a favourable light. I am sure this has been done in the spirit of democracy and religious freedom. Certainly the Witnesses conduct themselves in a civilised manner, are polite and well-dressed. On the surface all seems innocuous, if not admirable. Councillor Whitehead is reported in the article in question to have remarked how his exchanges with visiting Jehovah’s Witnesses have always been perfectly civil.
    I am writing today with some information about the JW organisation which may make you less than keen to aid their preaching work by permitting them to print their literature in your city. It may surprise you to know that, on a moral basis, the Watchtower Society, the organisation that has persuaded these well behaved and neatly dressed Christian enthusiasts to spend their time and money spreading its beliefs, is as worthy of respect and support as the Ku Klux Klan or Al Quaedr.
    This is their central message:
    1. God will soon murder the greater part of humanity for the crime of not obeying, to the letter, every command of the Watchtower Society’s Governing Body.
    2. The Watchtower Society’s Governing Body has been appointed by God himself as his exclusive channel for communicating with the human race.
    3. All other so called Christians, as well as all members of other faiths and none, are possessed by Satan and are thus deserving of this imminent slaughter. (This includes, of course, all your City Council, its staff and inhabitants of Chelmsford who are not practising Jehovah’s Witnesses.)
    The methods the Watchtower Society uses to keep its flock in obedient line are cruel, and possibly illegal. I will list but three:
    1. Shunning
    If a baptised Jehovah’s Witness decides to leave the organisation, their family are ordered to cease contact. This has led to the splitting of countless families.
    2. Banning of Blood Transfusion
    Since 1945 thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses have died through following the Watchtower Society’s edict that blood transfusion defies the law of God. Here is a link to one of their magazines heaping praise on teenagers who had followed the Society’s diktats and died through refusal of blood. This is an example of the chilling message that a press at Galleywood would disseminate. http://www.cftf.com/comments/kidsdied.html
    3. Protection of Paedophiles
    Complaints by minors about sexual assault by adult members of the congregation are not taken seriously by congregation elders. They are forbidden, by the ruling Governing Body, to involve the police at the first instance. A Biblical verse is produced to justify this illegal practice. An American court has recently found the Watchtower Society guilty. I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe that the law of England and Wales condones the institutional sheltering of paedophiles. This video explains the background to one of many cases now coming before the courts:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ELBt4mA7sI
    If you have any questions or wish for further information please contact:
    http://aawa.co/about-aawa/contact-us/
    I am a native of Essex; I was born and raised in Leigh on Sea and have many happy memories of exploring the wonderful Essex countryside on my bicycle. Obviously I would love to hear of any organisation that cleans up a polluted and derelict site in my county of birth.
    A Jehovah’s Witness printing works, whatever it might do for the landscape, would be an engine of mental and spiritual pollution whose malign effects would far outweigh any physical environmental benefits.
    I trust you will consider seriously whether you wish to give any support to an organisation whose practices and beliefs offend most decent citizens, and who, anyway, believe you are deserving of the death penalty for not obeying every diktat of its bosses.
    Regards,
    Rowland Nelken

  • February 3, 2014 at 7:12 am
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    No doubt WT is making good real state moves. They bought land decades ago that are worth much more in today’s market. If the organization’s decisions are related to lost membership and contributions, time will tell.

  • February 3, 2014 at 7:15 am
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    O que o futuro imediato reserva para os do Corpo dos Governantes das Testemunhas de Jeová é por demais sombrio. Visto estarem cada vez mais se afastando da luz da Palavra dos Deuses, serão entregues à mais negrume das trevas espirituais.

    Receio que eles operarão somente à partir dos Estados Unidos num futuro bem próximo. Acredito que todos os beteis serão fechados um a um e só o deles, no EUA, ficará aberto.

    Apóstolo TDS

  • February 3, 2014 at 8:59 am
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    It’s all about the money. As it has already been said, Mill Hill is a gold mine and once liquidated WT will have lots more cash. The same thing happened with the NY buildings. WT are cashing in on their property investments.
    Kate xx

  • February 3, 2014 at 9:05 am
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    This is a big move. The WTBTS have already shut down the Bethel in Ireland, and now they’re moving the British one?

    I would be very surprised if they are refused.

    I hope that they keep their file on sexual predators safe for the move! It would be a tragedy if it was lost in transit, wouldn’t it?

    I wonder how much UK JWs will be asked to fork out for it? The WTBTS forever pleads poverty when they have to spend any money.

    Will they sell the site at Mill Hill first, and have another Bethel cover them while they move? Or will they move out before selling the Mill Hill site?

    It is a sign of the times! The WTBTS doesn’t have the cash to keep expensive sites anymore. They need the profits to pay for the court cases they are facing.

    I await developments with interest.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • February 3, 2014 at 10:58 am
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    Thanks Cedars, useful. I hope that the leader of the Council and the local community in Chelmsford, reads this and some of the comments posted on here and the newspaper website.

  • February 3, 2014 at 11:12 am
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    Rowland, I’m a little confused about a detail regarding the child abuse cases. The “secret elder book” seems to have a statement like this (chapter 12, paragraph 19) :

    >>>>>>
    “19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation
    of child abuse to the police or other authorities.
    If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report
    the matter to the authorities or not is a personal
    decision for each individual to make and that there
    are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders
    will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation
    to the authorities. If the victim wishes to
    make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so.
    -Gal. 6:5.”
    <<<<<

    Do you think it's a recent addition ? (the copy I refer to is printed in 2010)

    I'm quite aware of the child abuse cases that are real issues, but reading the above, I don't get how it's possible that the elders could intimidate the victimes, their instructions seems to tell just the contrary (although it's still a very passive statement) …

    I came across this paragraph recently and I must admit I don't understand the situation at all. Although the way things are handled are far from appropriate in my opinion, at least the victimes should be totally free for reporting the issue to the police, if the elders are following the above instructions. Why aren't they following it ?

    • February 3, 2014 at 11:35 am
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      Not sure. I have not followed the minutiae of the Candace Conti case. Maybe John Cedars is up to speed on this.

      • February 3, 2014 at 12:14 pm
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        The Candace Conti case is still under appeal. I’m expecting things to reach some degree of finality in the next couple of months.

  • February 3, 2014 at 11:56 am
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    Teaching the earth is only 6,000 years old? Come on! I grew up in this org. They teach mankinds history on the earth is only about 6,000 years. The earth is much older, because before it was prepared for the arrival of mankind is was dark covered expanse. I hate stupid mis-representations of JW’s. They are people trying to help people. But have empowered themselves, and have not gave any benefits to their following, other than their bigotry. It would have been nice if the JW’s headquarters would have found it valuable to train all its followers in some kind of jobs skills. Like fireman, window cleaners, etc. But if you would have got df’d they would say, Your Fired!

  • February 3, 2014 at 12:12 pm
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    JB, Rowland,
    The Elders were sent a secret letter in 2012. There are a couple of articles about it on here in the child abuse section. This guy also tells you about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaa00DtkTYQ
    Cedars has also done an article on here about him.

    • February 3, 2014 at 12:30 pm
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      Thanks. So Glad to Be Out!

  • February 3, 2014 at 12:59 pm
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    Hi So Glad To Be Out,

    Thank you so much for the video, and it reminds me indeed about the letter you mentioned.

  • February 3, 2014 at 4:09 pm
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    Hmm, so my parents are gradually moving closer and closer to me.

    At the moment, Google Maps tells me they’re 3,805 miles away from me (current Bethel location to my home in Pyla, Larnaca, Cyprus).

    If the Chelmsford move happens, they’ll only be 3,797 miles away.

    This is unacceptable!

  • February 3, 2014 at 9:18 pm
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    Crappy GB idea when thousands of their “brothers” are starving in Africa

    • February 4, 2014 at 2:52 am
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      Hi Andrew the selling of Mill Hill property will actually release money as the property there is worth a fortune. But you are right the money wont go to help anyone who is starving.

  • February 3, 2014 at 10:37 pm
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    We now have a Karl-Heinz trying, in the Essex Chronicle comments, to defend the JW outfit. He has merely quoted afew isolated innocuous sounding titles from JW lit. and pasted the JW.org web address along with some random Bible quotes. Bizarrely he also mentions, but does not name ‘his own physician’ who is full of praise for the JW anti blood stand and who has signed a ‘don’t give me a transfusion’ pledge. That sounds like fantasy

  • February 4, 2014 at 2:41 am
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    I believe Rowland has hit the nail on the head with his astute comments. People need to understand that we are dealing with a dangerous group of false prophets.

  • February 4, 2014 at 4:04 am
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    JB, you hit the nail on the head. The elders are never instructed to advise the parents to go to the police. They merely do not sanction you if you do so choose. How Christian of them! Remember, the rank and file witness, and all females, are banned from viewing this book. They will not read the paragraph you have quoted.

    They will merely hear an elder tell them to leave it with them, and then the elder will call…….Bethel! Everyone knows that Bethelites are experts in child exploitation, don’t they?

    If there isn’t a second witness (and child abuse is not a spectator event usually) then the parents and child will be asked to wait on Jehovah to put things right.

    The WTBTS’ child protection policy is totally wrong.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • February 4, 2014 at 9:22 am
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    Hi Excelsior, yes, I think the victims should be encouraged to report this to the police – maybe even, it should be made mandatory before reporting to the elders ! From various aspects, it would be a much more sensible approach. Besides, I think it’s any citizen’s responsibility to report such a case to the police, JW or not.

    Then, rather than keeping it quiet, the members of the congregation could be informed that “there is an investigation going on about brother X regarding a child abuse case”. Then everyone would be aware of what’s going on and they could decide how to deal with brother X. I think the real big issue is that the elders/bethel are getting involved in a matter that is beyond them. As mentioned in the elders’ book, it’s a crime. So basically, reporting this to the police or not is not a “personal decision” but a legal obligation required by “Caesar” …

  • February 4, 2014 at 1:32 pm
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    When do you EVER hear about dubs helping their starving brothers? Too busy selling their bicycles.

  • February 4, 2014 at 2:05 pm
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    Hi Cedars, could you tell us more about the downsizing of the Mill Hill, Ridgeway, headquarters to this dump.

    Thanks

  • February 4, 2014 at 11:42 pm
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    Brief list of problems with J.W. judicial proceedings and molestation cases. (Certainly not an exhaustive list)

    1. Records of precedings are hidden from the eyes of the public. (No transparency = No accountability, they are free to do what they want, to who they want)
    2. No legal training for elders and varying levels of intelligence and education amongst the body = inconsistent rendering of judgements and wildly different outcomes from one committee to the next.
    3. They are not mental health professionals and not able to judge sensitive matters and especially not the tragic outcomes of someone being molested and the long term mental and emotional help a person will require.
    4. They put the elders in a position of a proxy circuit court, that undermines the judicial systems of the lands where they reside.
    5. Bottom line, they are an obstruction of justice.

    As for the sale of the branch, it is easy to determine motive. When you have a largely uneducated workforce what options do you have? Sell magazines and books to the public and make money from the printing. However when the magazines are so bad that you have to give them away to find an audience for your self aggrandizing articles what do you do then? You find new and more creative ways to exploit your slaves. (Eph 6:5)

    What can you do with a largely uneducated workforce besides peddle books and magazines? Use them to clean up a dump and then have your free slaves that are skilled take time off from work and be away from their family to build you another piece of real estate to sell later. Meanwhile you can wait for a disaster to happen where people have good insurance so you can be there to collect the premiums from work done by free labor. There you have it, the business plan of the Watchtower for the foreseeable future.

  • February 5, 2014 at 6:11 am
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    Spot on, JB!

    It really is that simple. It requires such a tiny change, and yet the GB can’t see that it is the right, and the Christian thing to do.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • February 7, 2014 at 3:47 am
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    I have been one of Jehovah’s witnesses since my early 20’s. I am now 82 and stronger in my faith than ever. I have NEVER been exploited by the Watchtower Society. Ever.
    The elders are not paid for their work. They are volunteers and they keep themselves and their families in food, clothing etc. by using their educated skills. They are not in servitude to any man. They do not believe the doctrine of any man. What they believe and try their best to be obedient to, is God’s word only, not man’s imaginations.

    The Bethelites, also volunteers, are paid pocket money for essential and they also are volunteers. At any time they can leave if they want to. Servitude? Slavery? NO. They are slaves of God only, not of any man.
    Of course it makes sense to sell property in England’s capital and move. Wouldn’t any person do the same?

    Where do you think the money goes? Not to rich people to spend on yachts and buy islands. No, it goes to help as many people get to know the God of the bible and increase their faith in harmony with Jesus’ command at a The Society’s financial affairs are audited and the Society makes its financial affairs public.
    It makes me indignant to read so many lies about what we believe, and the sheer hatred shown in many of the above remarks by people who don’t bother to find the truth from witnesses. Yes, we do help people who are starving. We do it personally. Each JW, myself included helps others (not JWs) in every way they can according to Jesus’ words that we should love our neighbour as we love ourselves. What we have, we freely give. No charge. We encourage people to check that whatever we teach is according to the scriptures and not some invention of some archbishop. We show them the scripture at Acts 17:11-12 to make the point.
    Islam sharia law threatens with death any one who wants to leave Islam. They are building mosques all over the place, but are they subjected to the venom shown by those remarks above?

    No. But nobody should be surprised that so many lies are published about JWs. Jesus, himself a perfect man – without any sin – was lied about in the same way before he was framed and crucified. See John 15:17-21

    • February 7, 2014 at 4:12 am
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      I am glad, Bettine Symons, that you have never been exploited.

      As a long serving Jehovah’s Witness, perhaps you can answer a question of mine to which I have yet to receive an answer.

      You write that you serve God. In the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the details of correct service are determined and propagated by the Governing Body. They claim that, as they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24, an instruction from the Governing Body amounts to an instruction from God himself. Indeed the entire authority of the Governing Body, and thus of the worldwide Jehovah’s Witness community, depends on the veracity of the Governing Body’s claim to being this Faithful and Discreet Slave.

      Over the years I have asked many Jehovah’s Witnesses to provide evidence that supports this claim. As yet, none has provided any. Maybe I have asked those with too little experience. With over half a century’s service, Bettine, I trust you can provide evidence to support the Governing Body’s claim of effective divine appointment, and thus their entitlement to the style of ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave. I await your reply with interest

    • February 7, 2014 at 4:20 am
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      Welcome to JWsurvey Bettine! You will find this website to be a haven of free thought where you can express your opinions openly, whether they contradict those of the Governing Body or not.

      —–“I have been one of Jehovah’s witnesses since my early 20′s. I am now 82 and stronger in my faith than ever. I have NEVER been exploited by the Watchtower Society. Ever.”

      With respect, from what you’re telling us, and assuming you go out in the preaching work regularly and give donations to the Society, you have been exploited for 60 years. Of course, you wouldn’t know that if you swallow every word Watchtower says without doing research and thinking objectively.

      —–“They [the elders] are not in servitude to any man. They do not believe the doctrine of any man. What they believe and try their best to be obedient to, is God’s word only, not man’s imaginations.

      I agree that elders are not in servitude to any man (singular), but they are most certainly in servitude to a group of men (plural) – the Governing Body. When you were first baptized in the fifties the organization WAS under one man – Nathan Knorr. But in the 70s the arrangement was changed so that power could be shared between a ruling elite.

      So tell me, Bettine, if elders are obedient to God’s word only, why do they enforce a policy of disfellowshipping and shunning that is “altogether foreign to Bible teachings” according to a 1947 Awake article? And where in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ visited earth between 1914 and 1919 and chose a man, Joseph Rutherford, to be among the first of his faithful and discreet slave? This becomes all the more ludicrous once you learn that Rutherford was a man who history records as being a bully, a racist, and quite likely an alcoholic (at the very least a purchaser of personal alcohol using Society funds). These are all things elders MUST believe, teach and enforce, but they are to be found nowhere in the bible – only through supposition and selective interpretation.

      —–“Where do you think the money goes? Not to rich people to spend on yachts and buy islands.”

      At least some of the money goes on millions of dollars worth of settlements in child abuse lawsuits to help keep quiet a rampant systemic problem with child molestation within the organization. Check one of our most recent articles, and you will see that the Governing Body has been accused by a District Attorney in a case in Oklahoma. They will need to stand trial for their role in allegedly covering up criminal activity if the DA’s motion is accepted.

      —–“The Society’s financial affairs are audited and the Society makes its financial affairs public.”

      Really? If this is true, I would love to see Watchtower’s financial records. Please can you supply information as to where they can be found? FYI – your local congregation accounts report doesn’t count.

      —–“We encourage people to check that whatever we teach is according to the scriptures…”

      You encourage people to research your beliefs using ONLY Watchtower publications, which of course are bound to portray your teachings in a favorable light and push aside any discrepancies or contradictions.

      —–“Islam sharia law threatens with death any one who wants to leave Islam. They are building mosques all over the place, but are they subjected to the venom shown by those remarks above?”

      And Watchtower threatens Witnesses who want to leave the organization with shunning and the weaponization of their loved ones – which in some cases leads to the shunned person committing suicide anyway because they find life intolerable once severed from their family. Why should there be any threatening at all if this is truly a loving organization and people have free choice?

      —–“No. But nobody should be surprised that so many lies are published about JWs.”

      Bettine – you will notice that there is a promise made on this website that if anything is incorrect or unfactual I will remove or correct it. If you can identify a single piece of such information, please let me know and I will gladly investigate. But at the moment it seems like you are defending an organization you WANT to believe is true simply because you have given over 60 years of your life to it, and you don’t want to consider the possibility that you might have been conned into serving just another damaging cult.

      • February 7, 2014 at 5:03 am
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        Cedar your response to Bettine is excellent. I’m saving it to answer my JW brother. LOL

      • February 7, 2014 at 6:01 am
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        And Cedars – I had thought my on e question was enough to keep Bettine occupied till the cows come home or even until Armageddon. Answering that lot will likely cut into her service time even more!

        But what better service than, armed with the Truth from God himself, (aka the Gov. Bod.), she silences us ill informed naysayers and cynics once and for all!

  • February 7, 2014 at 5:02 am
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    Good comment Cedars in reply to Bettine,
    I feel sorry for some of these elderly JW’s who have been witnesses for many years. Many never invested in a pension as Armageddon was going to sort everything out. They read the Watchtower and did not make provision for their old age. I know that the Jah Jireh charity takes in some of these old JW’s and they operate on donations and state handouts that are given to the elderly and sick. They take a portion from a person’s pension and gives them some spending money. I guess many who choose to shun their families have been left with no choice but to end up in a Charity home. This place can only operate if the residents have money or are on benefit from the state. How sad for them. How much better would it have been if some of these elderly JW’s had not ostracised their families because a cult told them that in doing so they would please god. They should have a loving family around them, whether their family chooses to be a JW or not. http://www.jah-jireh.org

  • February 7, 2014 at 5:14 am
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    Hello Bettine,

    What are your thoughts about Armagueddon coming in 1975 ? Were you disappointed ?

    • February 7, 2014 at 9:51 am
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      David, you wrote this:
      I hate stupid mis-representations of JW’s. They are people trying to help people. But have empowered themselves, and have not gave any benefits to their following, other than their bigotry. It would have been nice if the JW’s headquarters would have found it valuable to train all its followers in some kind of jobs skills. Like fireman, window cleaners, etc. But if you would have got df’d they would say, Your Fired!

      I wish you could go to see the printing works in London. You will see that the workers there are extremely well skilled. If printing wasn’t their job before they volunteered, then they are taught the skills needed. Yes, because they are not materialistic in their outlook, those who want to spend more time in the house-to-house ministry do part time jobs such as window cleaning, carpet cleaning, delivering fish, etc. All my three sons have done window cleaning in the past and enjoyed it as a way of earning a living.
      My youngest son is highly skilled as a self-employed builder and is never short of work. He does not need to advertise. Before that he built narrow boats but found that the regular boat fairs took him away from home too often. So did his first job as a quantity surveyor. One of my sons has lost his faith but is still treated lovingly in the congregation. I am very disabled and cannot go out without help. (pesticide poisoning many years ago – been very ill ever since) So now, most of my witnessing is done from home and to people I meet and on the internet. My twitter account is @Bettineolive

      By the way, we are not bigots. Not in any way. No Jehovah’s Witnesses that I know is a bigot. That clearly is a lie. Will Cedars please expunge it as promised.

      • February 7, 2014 at 10:01 am
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        Bettine, you said…

        —–“By the way, we are not bigots. Not in any way. No Jehovah’s Witnesses that I know is a bigot. That clearly is a lie. Will Cedars please expunge it as promised.”

        I didn’t say Jehovah’s Witnesses are bigots. I said Joseph Rutherford was a bigot. I base this claim on the literature printed under his tenure as president, most notably the anti-semitic rhetoric in his “Declaration of Facts” (as reprinted in the 1934 Yearbook) and the hideous assertion in a 1929 Golden Age article that black people are an inferior “race of servants.”

        If you don’t believe me, this page on JWsurvey has the evidence… http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/the-racist-history-of-watchtower-literature

        And it seems you’re quite selective in which part of my comment you remember.

        Can I jog your memory regarding the question I asked you? You said…

        —––“The Society’s financial affairs are audited and the Society makes its financial affairs public.”

        I replied…

        —-“Really? If this is true, I would love to see Watchtower’s financial records. Please can you supply information as to where they can be found? FYI – your local congregation accounts report doesn’t count.”

        Bettine I am happy to supply evidence to back my assertions. Can you say the same?

      • February 7, 2014 at 2:12 pm
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        Bettine – you never answered my question about evidence for the authority of the Governing Body. Where is there any connection between those 8 men in New York State and the Faithful and Discreet Slave as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24?

        When you have provided evidence and we can be satisfied, therefore, that whoever is in charge of the Bible Students/Jehovah’s Witnesses, is indeed God’s exclusive earthly agent, perhaps you could explain why Jehovah did not object to blood transfusions before 1945, but then threatened with Armageddon execution anyone receiving blood. Could you also explain the current position whereby Jehovah allows the receipt of blood fractions but bans the donation of blood, the only source of such fractions. Is not Jehovah urging his followers to be hypocrites.

        As a Jehovah’s Witness of over 50 years standing, I presume you have pondered these questions and have some ready answers.

  • February 7, 2014 at 5:29 am
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    Sorry about the typos. In paragraph four I was temporarily cut out (I don’t know what happened – probably finger trouble) so I forgot to finish the sentence. It should have read “…increase their faith in harmony with Jesus’ command at Matthew 28:18-20. That work is thorough and is helping people throughout the earth. It is also voluntary. Since when was ‘encouragement from the scriptures’ translated into ‘pressure to do what one doesn’t want to do’.

  • February 7, 2014 at 6:12 am
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    Bettine,

    With so little time left, their is nothing left to focus on, but faith and hope. I do not begrudge you that, at all. Please, Bettine understand we do not share your views at all. If you wish to prove your views be prepared that their will be a lot of evidence and provable truths about the Governing Body, its human agencies and policies that you will find unsavory and shocking. At 82 I am sure you have lived your life the best way you knew how and that is a good thing. If there is a God, I hope that he will have mercy for all who act in ignorance. If not, then arguing any religious viewpoint at 82 really is moot. I say this, not out of disrespect, but quite the opposite it is with the idea that you may enjoy what remains of your life and avoid the heartache that comes with learning the Truth about the Truth.

    Whoever it is that you are trying to save on here, instead of saving them, you will find that like a child after learning that Santa Claus is not real, goes through a period of denial and then sadness and finally anger at those who told them the lie. Your grief will only be multiplied because of the abundance of years of belief you have had. That is not a pleasant way to spend your remaining years.

    I once was an elder and I cared especially for the elderly in my hall, I loved them dearly, so as a friend, I ask, go your way in peace and dream sweet dreams of paradise.

  • February 7, 2014 at 7:36 am
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    Thank you for your polite reply Rowland. The evidence that the governing body is the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class according to Jesus words in Matthew 24:45 is very clear to me. I will explain:

    Jesus’ remark is in the form of a question. Therefore we, as individuals have been invited, by him, to observe and answer that question by what we see. A clue is in Jesus’ words at Matthew 7:13-27, particularly the verse “By their fruits you shall know them”

    ‘Fruits’ would be clearly evident according to scripture and enable us to recognise them. Some of the fruits are a heartfelt love for Jehovah and mankind displayed in their actions. Their life patterns show that they are led by God’s spirit. Their attitude is not “do as I say, not as I do”and their obedience to the Christ has to stand out, without hypocrisy.

    Myself, I examined the Society and learned about what the Governing body do and I checked with the bible that they are not only preaching the truth but they are living the truth. They have worked very hard (and are still working) to understand the bible and sincerely, from the heart, they obey God.

    The ones who take the lead in the congregations, along with those at Bethel, including the governing body, preach the Good news of the Kingdom and go from house to house to do it. (Acts 20:20).

    The writing committee at Bethel works hard to educate people in the scriptures by means of magazines, leaflets, brochures and books. (that is, if they want to be educated). All the printed material is free, not sold. Educating people in the Holy Bible is what Jesus wants us ALL to do, and that is an excellent way to do it.

    The early disciples were described as ‘unlettered and ordinary’ by the Jewish religious rulers (Acts 4:13) – Peter & John were ‘just’ fishermen – but after Peter witnessed to the group, those same people “…began to wonder, and they began to recognise about them that they used to be with Jesus” This didn’t please them, of course, so later they said to each other “let us tell them with threats not to speak any more on the basis of this name to any man at all” Peter and John’s polite reply was, “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to you rather than listen to God, judge for yourselves but as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.

    At the time I was examining what the witnesses teach from the bible (in my early 20s) when Quebec introduced the ‘Padlock law’ specifically against the witnesses, and Americans in the Southern states were tarring and feathering innocent witnesses The society was spending funds in the courts to uphold freedom of religion – and succeeding.

    They gladly spend money to obtain freedom of religion from court action in many different countries and that is certainly beneficial to other citizens of those countries.

    All the facts that I gathered for myself convinced me that the society was obedient to Jesus Christ and producing “good fruits”. Therefore, because they had dropped all man-made doctrines and taught only God’s word, pointing out the paganism in Christmas celebrations, the man-made notion of a fiery hell, the trinity, and the idea that dead people have a ‘soul’ that is immortal, (therefore a resurrection is not needed).

    I was very glad to have those wrong ideas thrown out.

    I found out, for myself, what I needed to know before I made the decision to become baptized and NOBODY pressured me. In fact the word ‘baptism’ was never mentioned. I thought of it first.

    I saw no hypocrisy in the governing body at all and that convinced me that they were being led by God’s spirit and they were indeed the “faithful & discreet slave” looking after God’s people in this time of the end.

    This isn’t to say that the Governing body are perfect; nobody is. They have made mistakes, one of which happened many years ago. I told nobody of the mistake to forestall any dissension in the congregation, I also recognised that Jesus is the Head of the congregation and pleaded, in prayer, that he would put it right. Yes, it was, absolutely and apologetically, two years later.

    Meanwhile, probably some were stumbled and left and that is regrettable but mistakes by imperfect men who mean well are usually honest mistakes.

    If I wanted to leave and stop witnessing tomorrow nobody would pressure me to stay. I hope that an elder and his wife would visit me and lovingly ask me what the problem was. If I wanted to tell them, I’m sure they would listen to me. The elder would probably offer some helpful scriptures perhaps, but I would still be free to go if I wanted to. Quite a lot of people I knew years ago in the congregation have done just that, and we are very sad when that happens. But they can come back at any time and will be warmly welcomed.

    BTW I’m the only one in my family who grasped the truth. My mother wasn’t opposed, my father said nothing, my two brothers remained atheists, one of whom disowned me as his sister.

    I feel sad about my brothers because they showed bigotry from the beginning. Therefore I never found any chance to talk to them about the bible. If anyone was pressured, it was myself – by my own brothers, not to become a JW.

    I hope that answers your understandable question. May JHWH bless you in a way you haven’t yet envisaged.

    • February 9, 2014 at 1:11 pm
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      Thank you for your reply, Bettine.

      I like that remark attributed to Jesus ‘By their fruits ye shall know them’.

      Herewith a list of some of the fruits of the WT leaders, president or Gov. Bod. since 1879:

      1. A series of flip flopping diktats on blood transfusion leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths.

      2. As a result of the above, some utterly ingenuous claims are made by JWs about the progressive nature of bloodless surgery. Even if the JW bosses knew anything about medicine, this is an absurd claim from an outfit which constantly preaches the imminence of Armageddon whereby most of the world’s medics (i.e. all the non JW ones) will be murdered by Jehovah in order that Paradise Earth may be established. In Paradise Earth of course there will be no need for any medics at all as everyone will be young, beautiful and healthy forever.

      Your outfit has stunted many lives by frowning on higher education, as Armageddon is just around the corner and ‘worldly’ (i.e. Satanic) careers are a waste of time. When I was a JW kid, in the 1950s, Armageddon was definitely due before the death of the 1914 generation.

      The JWs have caused many a family split with their cruel shunning edicts.

      The Paedophile problem is rampant within the Jehovah’s Witnesses as protection is enshrined in the 2 witness rule.

      My childhood was merely one of millions which was overshadowed by the prospect of Armageddon whereby a mythical Jehovah monster was due, imminently, to murder all family and friends who were not door knocking Kingdom Hall attending JWs.

      I know the Jehovah’s Witnesses by their fruits, and every last fruit is rotten and stinking to the core!

      If you really take pleasure in looking forward to the day your God murders me (and your apostate son for that matter), so be it.

      Sorry, I forgot. There was one benefit I gained from my childhood Kingdom Hall door knocking years. I have a clearer understanding of the mindset of the members of Al Qaedr than most of my contemporaries. OK, so those guys go in for DIY killing of those with a contrary outlook on life. You, Bettine, and all believing Jehovah’s Witnesses, delegate the murdering to your fantasy Jehovah monster.

  • February 7, 2014 at 9:19 am
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    Dear Cedars, Thanks for your input. In answer to you, point by point, you wrote:

    With respect, from what you’re telling us, and assuming you go out in the preaching work regularly and give donations to the Society, you have been exploited for 60 years. Of course, you wouldn’t know that if you swallow every word Watchtower says without doing research and thinking objectively.

    Sir, you yourself know when you are exploited don’t you? So do I. You assume that I have swallowed things without question but, yes, I am still researching. I have the Quoran translated into English on my bookshelf, along with “Antiquities of the Jews” by Josephus, two full concordances, a line by line greek/english translation of the Greek scriptures, several English versions, including American Standard version, the KJV, Jerusalem Bible, Good news bible, and many more, including the KJV that has Jehovah’s name restored where it was originally. I had the Book of Mormon and I had two missionries visiting me in the past. (Nice people, but not critical thinkers). When I was seven, I went to all the different churches and chapels in the village where I lived, and I was married in a church in Canada. You might be intrigued to know that there is a website put out by First United Church in Canada which debunks the trinity doctrine very well.

    You probably already know that the Anglican Church no longer believes in the Hellfire doctrine. As to money contributions, it is the main churches that pass around a begging plate, is it not? We have a box at the back of the hall which we point to if we are asked.

    When disasters happen, Jehovah’s witnesses are there helping out very quickly – helping everyone, not just fellow witnesses.

    You also wrote:
    You encourage people to research your beliefs using ONLY Watchtower publications, which of course are bound to portray your teachings in a favorable light and push aside any discrepancies or contradictions.

    Clearly that is not true. It may be true of some, perhaps, but the majority are like me. You assume too much Cedar.

    The rest of your accusations against the Society will take too long to answer, especially since you do not offer any proof.

    But please remember that, of the twelve that Jesus himself chose to be his apostles, one of them, Judas Iscariot, proved to be a bit of a snake in betraying Jesus. Why would anyone want to do that? Yet Jesus already knew what was in his deceitful heart.

    When Jesus said he was preaching to those who had “ears to hear”. It seems that whatever I might tell you about my own experiences, you will still continue in your prejudice against Jehovah’s Witnesses. You aren’t used to listening and checking the validity of what you hear, perhaps and prefer to imagine motives.

    If you had been alive then, would you have asked Judas to tell you about the Way? He obviously had issues. Would you have gone along with his complaints and spread them around?

    I really don’t understand your motive in slagging off Jehovah’s Witnesses while you ignore a Pope who recently said that all religions (including Buddhists, Hindus, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Baptists, Gaia worshippers and other religions) should get together and comprise a one world religion, with one world language?

    Do you think Jesus would approve? He taught that “The way” is a narrow path and very few find it. Babylon the Great, the prostitute who rides the beast. (Revelation 17:15-18 Who do you think those two symbols signify?
    Nuff said by me. Please direct your questions to someone else. I am not an elder. All I know is that the elders in the congregation I am part of really care for the sheep and they work very very hard.

    Your last paragraph to an older, wise person, who has had more experience than you have so far, is very condescending. You cannot know how my mind works. I don’t just believe things because I want to. Period.
    If you are really concerned about what is true and what are lies, go to the people who know what the truth is. Write to the Society at Millhill. The address is at the bottom of every magazine we give away to people. Show everyone that you do not prefer the lie to the truth. (Romans 1:18-25)

    • February 9, 2014 at 11:49 am
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      Bettine, I would rather not potentially waste my time on your “point by point” rebuttal when you continue to evade a direct question I have now had to ask you twice, with still no reply.

      If you remember, you said…

      —––”The Society’s financial affairs are audited and the Society makes its financial affairs public.”

      I replied…

      —-”Really? If this is true, I would love to see Watchtower’s financial records. Please can you supply information as to where they can be found? FYI – your local congregation accounts report doesn’t count.”

      It’s a simple question. You made an assertion that Watchtower’s records are public, and I am calling you out on it. If you refuse to answer such a straightforward question, why should I answer any of your questions or arguments – and frankly, why should I allow you to engage other visitors to this site in arguments if you are disingenuous enough to ask questions but not answer them?

  • February 7, 2014 at 10:52 am
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    Sorry, JB I replied, so I thought, to David’s comment, but it came out as a reply to yours. Sorry about that.

    Was I disappointed about 1975? No. I didn’t for one moment think that anyone could come up with a date. Jesus said the sign of his presence and the end of the wicked world would come “like a thief in the night” At the same time he said we should stay awake because we don’t know the day and hour it will happen. He also said that no one knows the day and hour but the Father, not even Jesus knows.

    I never saw anything in any Society publication that gave people a date for Armageddon. The nearest was a study book about Babylon the Great’s fall which was discussing bible chronology and came up with around 1975 as a fitting time. That chapter took pains to point out that, bible chronology is limited because nobody knows the date that Adam and Eve were driven out of Eden, so the paragraph only said “it is fitting that Armageddon should be somewhere near that date – but there is much room for error” (I don’t have that book now, so I cannot quote the exact paragraph. But certainly it was made quite plain that we cannot know the specific date because of the scripture at Matthew 24:36 “Concerning that day nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father”

    Unfortunately, some witnesses read too much into it and spread the date 1975 around. It really was an untrue rumour, but you know what people are like.
    The Watchtower Society apologised for the misunderstanding in a very humble way.

    Jesus took great pains to tell us the conditions on earth that would point to his imminent taking over of the world from the devil and throwing him and his demons into the abyss. Most of those conditions have already happened in the last 100 years. Wars, plagues, food shortages, people not knowing the way out because of the things happening on the earth (and other signs) So I am still awake to further signs and realise that things are coming to a climax right now.

    Has the earth and the oceans ever been bathed in atomic radiation everywhere in all of history until now? There is no precedent like the Chernobyl meltdown, the frequent bomb testing on the ground, in the air and underground and the recent earthquake-caused tsunami which hit the east Japan coast and resulted in the dangerous situation at Fukushima which is still spewing radioactive isotopes into the ocean.

    The many HAARP arrays throughout the earth (including Britain), pushing out such high powered ELF waves that, if transmitted in this country (or the USA) would be illegal. The chemtrails which, along with HAARP are at present being used as weather weapons. Meteorologists are saying that the constant rain over Britain is unprecedented, as are the California drought and the unusual weather on the East of USA. Snow falling in hot weather, extra fierce tornadoes, and so on. People are noticing.

    I’ll have to check up on this latest, but the video dated 6th February maintains that the oil companies are heating up the arctic so that the ice will melt, exposing the methane gas fields. There is so much methane under the ice that, to let it go free will be the end of mankind. At least that was what the scientist said. You can choose to believe it or not. I wouldn’t be surprised at anything at this stage, but I will need more proof than one video about the methane. I just hope, if they are doing that, they won’t succeed.

    Fortunately, all power in heaven has now been given to the resurrected Jesus – see 1Corinthians 15:20-28 & Revelation 21:1-5. We have a wonderful future ahead of us because Jesus has now been enthroned in the heavens, and the first part of the Lord’s prayer has been answered – Revelation 12:7-12
    My best wishes to you, and God bless.

  • February 7, 2014 at 6:35 pm
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    Tiger, why do you write, “if there is a God” You say you were once an elder.

    I shall explain to you why I am happy. I am not one of Jehovah’s faithful Witnesses just because someone misled me. No. I haven’t been misled into obeying God’s word and getting baptized.

    If you can prove that a fraction of what you say about the Governing body is true, it will not shift me. I am and always have been, a realist because people are people. If Judas, in a favoured position with Christ, can betray him as he did and also Peter deny him three times, then anything can happen these days while the devil is restricted to this earth – Rev 12:12

    Matthew 24:9-13 reads thus: Then people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. Then also many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end will be saved.” Everyone deciding to get baptized has already contemplated this prophecy and isn’t afraid.

    We cannot comfortably imagine that “the love of the greater number will cool off” just applies to those not ‘in the truth’. It applies solely to those in our own congregations and I am sad to say it has been happening for a long time. However, we oldies who have endured for many years are in the habit of enduring so we will endure regardless of what the devil throws at us.

    Psalm 91 reads: “A thousand will fall at your side and ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come to you. Only with your eyes will you look on.” and, again, “I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ our Lord” Romans 8:38-39

    King David was a true prophet, yet when he was spiritually weak he fell into adultery and was responsible for the death of two humans. So he was also a murderer as well as an adulterer.

    I think a sense of proportion might be an asset in the thinking of some of the people on this thread.

    The organisation of JWs is the best teaching organisation on this earth. I benefited from the pure truth that is found in God’s word because of excellent teaching by the WT Society itself and the elders in all the different congregations I was part of. (I travelled a lot) That is why I am still strong in faith. I am still being taught by the scriptures. Also, I was taught to obey God rather than men (as everyone is).

    Was that shepherding not enough for you? How is it that you and your friends are always suspecting the motives of decent people and trying to get witnesses to leave the congregation? Perhaps you have succeeded with some individuals who have not yet managed to allow the truth to penetrate deeply into their hearts. And that is very sad.

    Are you still working on staying in the ‘secret place of the most High?” I still am, and I leave the judging up to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. I know for sure that whatever is crooked will be made straight by Jesus Christ himself and I am looking forward to Armageddon, hoping it will happen soon. Certainly it will happen before the earth becomes uninhabitable Rev11:18

    God’s people in historic times – the favoured people – even sacrificed their children to Molech (2Kings 23:10) As well they brought disgusting idols into the Temple. They really sank to the depths of degradation. People are people you see?

    Yes, paedophilia is quite evil and it should be dealt with decisively, but in a law court, as it says in the bible, the principle is that one witness is not enough. “No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin….at the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.”
    Deuteronomy 19:5
    It is the responsibility of the victim who has been harmed (or the parents) to complain to the police. The elders are plainly in agreement with that. The committee of elders who decide what to do to keep the congregation spiritually clean do not pretend to be a court of law. They are concerned, not only with the alleged perpetrator, but also with the spiritual health of the congregation.

    Such sexual abuse of a child deeply shocks and offends everyone. If the parent or parents have reported the crime to the police, then the second witness can then be found by a doctor who can examine the physical state of the child. If one of my children had even once been abused sexually, I would have taken him straight to the doctor and reported it to the police as soon as possible. Where was the mum in some of these cases? Or the dad?

    Paedophelia is only part of the disgusting things that are happening now, everywhere in this world. There are also cases of bestiality in brought before the law courts these days. (that’ll be made legal next, I expect).

    There’s murder, theft and lies even by political leaders, and global corporations, there’s devil worship, and ‘legal’ torture…it goes on and on, and none of it surprises me because people are people.

    And here, on this page is a group of people scared because Jehovah’s Witnesses want to use a piece of their land to build a printery and accommodation for the voluntary workers. Oh my goodness! That means there will be even more pesky witnesses knocking at our doors!
    We’re doomed!

    Well, just tell them you aren’t interested and they will shake the dust off their feet and talk to people who welcome them. Nobody is pressured to do anything they don’t want to do, and the old saying that witnesses put their foot in the door is clearly untrue.

    Do you still study the bible Tiger? I don’t see it quoted anywhere here. Yet the word of God, through Jesus, is our lifeline, these days. The witnessing from door to door is vital because Jesus requires it of his followers. It also fulfills prophecy – Matthew 24:14

    This is my last contribution to the discussion.

    Take care Tiger, and be happy.

    • February 9, 2014 at 12:32 pm
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      Bettine, I’m just a few years behind you, I’m 65 and I drifted away from the WT, but they made me investigate.
      I discovered not only that the WT is a fake but I the Bible itself is questionable. Lets start from the beginning, the Pentateuch. According to archaeologists and scholars from Judaism and Christendom Moses never existed and the Exodus never happened. Bettine most likely you are preaching for a lost cause altogether. Investigate if you care to make sure of all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

  • February 8, 2014 at 4:10 am
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    Bettine, I can understand your enthousiasm about being part of a congregation and enjoying the company of fellow brothers and sisters. Under different circumstances, I’d enjoy this too.

    Sadly, I think I’m not that lucky as one of your sons. You said he lost his faith but he’s still treated with love. I, on the other hand, haven’t really lost my faith, but I feel like getting anything but love when I’m in one of these meetings at a congregation nearby.

    This warmth of love is given under the condition of adhering to the organization and having a human-made status, not who you really are and what you really do.

    So if I sit down, take a sheet of paper, and write a request for being reinstated, and if I send it to the address of my previous congregation, I can receive that love again. As a bonus, Jehovah (who DOESN’T love me know) will also love me and I won’t die.

    Did Jehovah’s endless love and mercy, His all-knowing perfection who can read our hearts, reduce to a letter ? Just a letter ?

    I think any idea of Faithful and Discreet Slave could be compared to the person who used a torch back in time in theathers, who guide the customers to their seats in the darkness. They could “facilitate” different things like this in a movie theather, but they cannot tell you which film is to be played on the screen. That’s someone else’s job :-)

  • February 9, 2014 at 12:23 pm
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    Hi Bettine,

    I do not think anyone is scared of a bunch of people wanting to have a printing press. I do not think there is any fear at all of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Generally people just feel sorry for them. I think what many people recognise is that, that printing press, prints ridiculous material that has had a negative impact on many peoples lives. People are doing a public service by highlighting this fact.

    You said – “Unfortunately, some witnesses read too much into it and spread the date 1975 around. It really was an untrue rumour, but you know what people are like”.

    You seem not to know how many times your own publications mentioned 1975. You may want to read the article in full (link below), that lists just a few of the many times the WBTS published the date 1975, in the Watchtower and Awake (not people talking), (your faithful and discreet slave stating) in publication after publication and how in later prints of the same publications they changed the actual words. You may have some of the original texts, check it out and see how you have been so sadly misled.

    Listen to the recordings from the various district assemblies and reflect on why you think there is only one reference. Look at all the magazines, you must remember them.

    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1975.php

    The article begins:
    From 1966 to 1975, the Watchtower regularly implied that Armageddon would arrive in 1975. However, ask one of Jehovah’s Witnesses about this date and they will invariably deny there ever being such statements. The following exhaustive list of quotes show the Watchtower left little to the imagination regarding 1975.

  • February 9, 2014 at 3:44 pm
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    @Bettine

    Please listen to the link Cedars posted on his twitter account on Jan 13;

    “Youtube.http://t.co/919f9qHFEQ.”

    It is a BBC recording of Phil Rees who was over the Millhill Bethel. My Dad was a Bethelite during Phil Rees time and he remembers this very clearly; in fact the threat of 1975 was one of the main reasons he became a Witness. Happily after over 40 years of being a devout JW including many years as an Elder, he realised the truth about the Organisation and left. Unhappily now he realises how many years of their lives he and my Mum wasted being slaves to this Deceitful, Hypocritical and Dangerously Unloving Organisation. However once they were aware of the falsehoods behind the Organisation, my parents were brave and strong enough to say that they could not in conscience remain a part of it.

    (Cedars I don’t know if I posted the link properly – can you fix it please if I didn’t, thanks)

  • February 9, 2014 at 5:43 pm
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    Hello Bettine,

    I’d like to thank you so much for your very kind reply about my question regarding 1975. I definitely like your stand on this topic. You very rightly said, no one knows. This is exactly my opinion too.

    The point I must be in disagreement with you is the fact that the organization served the possibly fitting date of 1975 in such a way that too many people bought into that. At best, this was unnecessary and indiscreet. At worst, it was on purpose to keep some influence upon people. I could never understand why, since no one could know about when the end will come … why making guesstimates ? Would anyone be wiser than Jesus, so that maybe they’d guess about the right year before him ? Or would Jehovah say, “hmmm I didn’t expect these brothers over there would find out about this date I thought they wouldn’t figure that out so easily” …

    Please be assured that I’m not making these comments in a way to belittle any kind of beliefs. But I must also mention that fact that, many people do suffer in this system daily and sometimes something that represents the end of their suffering may become a subject they grasp as their only hope. In such cases, the best is to keep quiet and avoid any risk to hurt people’s feelings. There was no need to mention 1975, thinking about the consequences upon brothers and sisters if this turned out to be a mistake. How loving and responsible an attitude this was, to push this guesswork upon them ? But as I said, I really like your take on this, because it’s mine too.

    There are many thought provoking current events you mentioned about, and you’re very right. However, although I’m lucky enough not experiencing the WW II, I could imagine the torment that could be seen on the streets might make one think of a climax too. The problem is, world became such a complex system that it’s becoming more and more difficult to forecast the trends and the way events unfold. In my opinion, things may change drastically and globally in 15 days, or things can continue with ups and downs for a long, long time. Honestly we have no way to know.

    I’m quite sad to see that, even the most recent Watchtower articles (just a few weeks ago) insist on the end coming “very soon”. But what is “very soon” ? To me it’s more dangerous than a particular year, because now, it means different things to different people. And it’s a very convenient term that requires no more accountability on statements with the same effect on people.

    I do believe in the end of this world as we know it, although my ideas about Armagueddon is probably much different than many people would think, reading Bible or Watchtower. But I do believe that bringing real justice and love, which is deep inside all of us and we’re longing for that, makes sense. I’m also convinced that we as human beings are not capable of achieving this. Whether people believe in God or not, I think the idea of God making this happen, is our only hope. As to WHEN this would happen is of no importance for me.

    Bettine, thank you very much again for taking your time and discuss this subject. As you see, any disagreement I may express here is not against your opinion about this, but rather the way the organization used the subject and the way the publications dealt with the subject.

    Many thanks

  • February 10, 2014 at 8:38 pm
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    Hello Bettine,

    First off I really appreciate that you took the time to respond.

    Bettine, I am no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses by my own choice. I returned a District Convention part that contained language that was soon to be featured in the Watchtower. I am paraphrasing as I no longer own WT library, when it said the end may not have come as soon as you expected. I am sure someone on here will know the exact Watchtower that made that assertion. I could not believe it was in a talk and there was no way I could even repeat such a lie. The G.B. took themselves out of that belief by not using the words “we expected” instead using the personal pronoun “you” indicating they were not the ones who gave us the stupid idea in the first place. However as it turns out this is not the first time that has happened. (Generation prophecy changes) In fact this was just one of many times this has occurred.

    False prophesy is a huge part of G.B. history dating back to Russell and Rutherford Especially. Rutherford was an arrogant man who claimed the title of Judge that he never earned, he proclaimed himself a Judge. He had built a place he called Beth Sarim, a mansion in Sandiego that now only stands as monument of a false prophet. The house itself is testimony to that fact. In fact it has the most unusal deed ever written. He claimed that the prophets of old were returning soon, in fact specifying many dates, ALL of them being fabricated lies. How can I state so strongly LIES. Simple, Rutherford’s own words condemn him as the liar he is. Rutherford asked, “How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet?” His answer was, “If he is a true prophet, his message will come to pass exactly as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will fail to come to pass…. — Deut. 18:21, 22.”54

    The house he built called Beth Sarim, meaning house of the prophets stands as modern testimony to the fact he was an outright liar and false prophet. Add that to the fact that he was personally driven around in 16 cylinder Cadillacs the likes of which were only for the rich and famous. Using modern day inflationary rates, these cars would cost over $500,000.00 each and he had 2 of them for his exclusive use.

    Rutherford, followed Russell who studied pyramidology and created many false prophesies as well. It is interesting to note that, the Bible shows no true prophet ever foretelling the future and it not coming to pass! However almost every generation of J.W. Governing Body have been riddled with false prophesies. To cover their tracks they have slickly invoked the term “new light” which means when I lie, it is merely my desire to please God that makes me do so. They also invoke a single scripture saying the light gets brighter. Which actually refers to events making more clear God’s prophesy. It does not refer to lies being retracted without any retribution by “God” or followers. The fact is, the G.B. are no more sincere than are men who swindle the elderly out of their money with promises of fountain of youth pills and elixirs, knowing that their desire to feel better is so strong it will over power reason. Deuteronomy 18:20 “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” Clearly God does not see the term “new light” as any excuse!

    I know, they will say that they do not claim to be prophets. However this is easily disproven. By taking the position of having Holy Spirit to guide their actions and foretelling the future, not of their building plans, but claiming knowledge supplied by Holy Spirit and therefore God. They are self appointed prophets, FALSE prophets.

    Finally, Bettine, I am an atheist just like your beloved G.B. They do not fear God and his reprisal, they know he is not real. They know the Bible is full of horrors perpetrated by middle eastern men against humanity. Atrocities for which today they would face the death penalty. According to Zechariah 14:1-3 God’s day is a day of RAPE and murder. Rape, Bettine, next time you are in a store and you see the clerk checking you out, know that God on his day wants her raped, he is a beast. The flood is false and there are thousands of easy proofs. The creation record is inaccurate just to mention a few things in the Bible.

    In closing, I loved the Bible as I made it, not as it truly is. A book full of lies, incomplete (dead sea scrolls prove that fact) and full of horrors and despicable behavior by God. He is an evil tyrant if you read the book. Carving up a woman and murder. Bettine, I hate Adolf Hitler, but the God of the Bible is more evil for he says he will kill those who do not know him. Imagine that for a moment. The new Police Chief comes to town and goes door to door and everyone he sees that does not know him he kills. You would be appalled and move. If he were real, he is evil. However he is a lie and there are thousands of proofs to that fact, if only we settle our emotions.

    I love you Bettine and I am sorry to tell you these things. I do not want any followers, I live in quiet with my family now and wish and work good toward all now, not just Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Bettine, “the secret place of the most high” does exist, however it is only in our minds. Your mind is a beautiful place and it is what you make it. In it we can make a heaven out of hell, or a hell out of heaven. Some people have little materially and yet find happiness, others have a lot and yet are miserable. However I know people who have a lot who are happy and people who have little that are unhappy all the time. What makes the difference, you know it is our mind, as not all these people believe in God or are atheists.

    Bettine, go your way to that beautiful place in your mind and do not judge what you are unwilling to study. Spend your years in peace. Love whoever it is on here you want to save. They don’t need saved, just loved. There are thousands of undeniable provable truths that belie the Bibles claims and especially the claims of those who try to set themselves up as teachers. Bettine, I know you did not come here at 82 looking to fix apostasy, rather to reason with someone you love. Please love them, don’t judge them. Remain in the place of the most high, a place you have found peace in. Bring that peace to the little one you hope to see and hold, let that be your power. Please do not side with false prophets in deciding who you are to love.

    Warm Regards,

    the Tiger

  • February 12, 2014 at 12:38 pm
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    Hello Betine.WOW!!! I think it has to be acknowledged that I hope we are all as mentally sharp as Bettine is at the age of 82.Also able to converse in a measured and respectful way.Maybe it has something to do with the rounded out education that the scriptures can offer people.It records the actions and feelings of real people warts and all so that we can see if the issues are relevant to us.If it gave us answers to all of our questions then why would we need faith.I wonder if I could respectfully ask for views on two verses of Proverbs that has always intrigued me when it comes to the effectiveness of preaching and reaching the hearts of people so that they can truly see the big picture and Gods purpose for us. Proverbs 24:11,12.If Gods intention is to cleanse our world then maybe we are in for a few surprises as to who the survivors will prove to be.

    • February 12, 2014 at 1:20 pm
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      The scriptures can offer us an education on the thoughts of a range of people living on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean between, c. 1000 BC and 100 AD. They can tell us nothing, zero, zilch about the future.

    • February 12, 2014 at 6:14 pm
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      I second free thinker on the fact that Bettine has a very good mind! Best wishes Bettine.

      • February 12, 2014 at 8:55 pm
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        I too wish Bettine well, for all that she gave no case whatever in support of the Gov. Bod’s ridiculous claim to being the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’.

        I hope that within her lifetime the Watchtower is either utterly transformed or is become simply another parvenu sect in the history of Christendom, and that Bettine will be able not only to adjust to a new post JW reality, but will find there fulfillment.

  • February 12, 2014 at 1:52 pm
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    free thinker,
    I have often wondered about Noddy. I do not concoct my future actions from those musings.

  • February 12, 2014 at 9:41 pm
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    2 Thes. 1:8 God promises retribution to those who do not know the good news. Wow he sounds real fair. Thanks Paul for the explanation of that one.

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