A prominent feature of Jehovah’s Witness teachings is the solemn belief that Armageddon will strike imminently, whereupon divine forces will slaughter pretty much everyone who isn’t a Witness.
Not only is this proposition outrageous and obscene to anyone of modest intellectual capacity who is not under Watchtower’s undue influence, it also poses a problem in Watchtower theology itself. What happens to the millions of people in parts of Asia and the Arab world who will never get to hear the Witness message?
Thus far, a meaningful answer by Watchtower to this conundrum has been notable by its absence. This continues to be the case in the latest December 15th study edition where the issue is masterfully sidestepped.
“When we meditate on the meaning of Jesus’ illustration [of the leaven at Matt. 13:33], we realize that there is no need for us to be overly concerned about how the Kingdom message will reach the millions who have not yet heard it. Jehovah has everything under control. But what is our work? God’s Word answers: ‘Sow your seed in the morning and do not let your hand rest until the evening; for you do not know which will have success, whether this one or that one, or whether they will both do well.’ (Eccl. 11:6)” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 pp.9-10
In case you are wondering what Matthew 13:33 says, here it is (from the revised New World Translation)…
“He told them another illustration: “The Kingdom of the heavens is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”
And so it is that, because leaven ferments in bread in a process that is “unseen,” Witnesses are to adopt an “out of sight, out of mind / it’ll be alright on the night” attitude to the fact that millions in eastern countries don’t even know what a Jehovah’s Witness is.
Watchtower is essentially saying to any Witness who dares to show concern about the potential slaughter of such ones: “stop asking impertinent questions, and get back to work!”
As this website has previously noted, either a person’s salvation is dependent on him or her responding to the preaching work, or it isn’t. If accepting the ‘good news’ IS a prerequisite, then millions will soon be struck down for the simple ‘crime’ of being born on the wrong side of the planet. If is ISN’T a prerequisite, then what is the point of the preaching work in the first place, beyond a token show of obedience?
No matter how much Watchtower may evade the problem, it isn’t going away any time soon. The map below shows (in red) all the countries where the preaching work is currently under ban (the so-called “30 other lands”)…
The publisher-to-population ratio for the area in red is 1:50,000 (one Jehovah’s Witness for every 50,000 people). The Witnesses aren’t even scratching the surface in a vast part of the globe spanning from the Atlantic ocean to the Korean peninsula!
And the following video, which uses data from the 2014 Yearbook, explains how the ratio is even worse in some countries where the work is not under ban. For example, you are far more likely to meet a Witness in one of the “30 other lands” than in Bangladesh, where the ratio is a staggering 1 Witness per 775,000 people.
The way Watchtower shrugs its shoulders at the fate of millions of non-Westerners is alarming enough, but the total indifference is driven home later in the magazine when the writers attempt to make Witnesses proud of their “spiritual heritage.”
“Only about 1 in every 1,000 people alive today has an accurate knowledge of the truth, and you are one of them. Should that not give all of us, no matter how we learned the truth, cause for rejoicing?” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 page 30
In other words, “don’t worry that 999 out of 1,000 are about to perish. Rejoice in the fact that you are among the special 0.1% who will survive divinely-mandated mass slaughter by obeying the Governing Body!”
For a group of men who pride themselves on “humility,” the solipsism, self-centeredness and indifference with which the Governing Body greets the obliteration of all who don’t see the world exactly as they do is something to behold.
Wow! With the Jehovah’s Witnesses increasing at an alarming rate, I had no idea about the state of affairs in other countries! I have found it appalling, to come across Jehovah’s Witnesses who are absolutely gleeful, telling us we shall be destroyed and they can’t wait! Today it seemed a foreign concept to one Jehovah’s Witness, that Jehovah does not wish for any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. I well remember stressing this while going door to door, striving so hard to reach people, (how glad I am now that I brought no one into this org). Why has this now become such a foreign concept to them? They actually act and seem to think as though God can’t wait to destroy billions! What is going on over there in wt land?
Rowland, I often point out that although salvation is by means of Faith in Jesus Christ, this is NOT what the watchtower teaches. Some are genuinely shocked, and have called me a liar. I post watchtower quotes to show them, the wt says salvation is by means of THEM, the org, then I show them Acts 4:12. Sometimes I ask them who their mediator is, they insist it is Jesus, I show them wt quotes, then this scripture. It seems to be shocking many Jehovah’s Witnesses, who apparently are not that well versed in watchtower theology. 1 Tim 2:5
That sounds great, Sally. Although I have no faith in Jesus, it may well be that a first step in awakening a JW may be pointing out how JW theology is utterly unbiblical.
Were I to come clean straightway and declare that the Bible is a man made collection of writings of dubious provenance and, in parts, quite hideous morality, ears would be closed straightway.
The arguments I’ve used have had a measure of success,Rowland, and I’ve posted them as Questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses, hope its okay to share my blog for this purpose John Cedar,,,sallypeterson1914@blogspot.com
I sincerely hope you find it beneficial.
There is a question that is being presented to Jehovah’s Witnesses, this by means of spirit. The question is, *If* it could be shown to you that what the Word of God teaches is different than what the watchtower teaches, whom will you obey? To Whom do you belong? Who do you Really worship God or the Watchtower. Scriptures are posted, along with wt quotes showing the contrary teachings, about 1, salvation, and 2, the Deity of Jesus, recently about who is your mediator? This is all written out as questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses on my blog. I hope you find it helpful. sallypeterson1914@blogspot.com
In order to get through Armageddon, all of us know that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that unless you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in good standing at Armageddon, you will be destroyed as one of the wicked right?
In Ray Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience, he pointed out that there are over 1,000 rules that the Governing Body has come up with for Jehovah’s Witnesses over the years. That was in around 1983 and there are probably several hundred more than that now that if printed out from the Questions to Readers, would fill quite a large book to read. Those rules still stand today. If someone wanted to go through the work to make a book with a print out of all those Questions to readers over the past 50 years and put it on the market, I bet it would sell. People would sit up and take notice and word would hopefully spread.
When one signs a legal contract, it usually has a lot of pages to read and who reads all of it? People just take the word of the one presenting the contract that they wouldn’t be out to cheat them and sign it, without reading it over. That is the same with the Watchtower. They present those questions in the Organized book and if the one getting baptized can answer those questions, that person qualifies for baptism. It doesn’t matter if that person is 8 or 80. The person getting baptized trusts the elders going over the questions that the Watchtower wouldn’t cheat them and so they answer the questions and get baptized and then it’s afterward they are faced with the more than 1,000 rules. Do any of you remember how you can’t say GOLLY, GOSH, GEE OR GOOD LUCK OR EVEN DON’T WORK TOO HARD? We were introduced to those 1,000 rules gradually. If we were faced with those over 1,000 rules all at once, how many of us would have been shocked to think that is what we were signing up for.
I tried talking to two of my elders about Malawi, 607, Russel’s grave stone, The Finished Mystery, joining the U.N. and on and on and it went right over their heads. I went on for 2 hours and they didn’t grasp a thing I was trying to tell them. I tried telling them about things in the Reasoning book that aren’t backed up with Scripture. I told them that I can prove from our own literature that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587. Nothing sank in. I tried telling them that they needed to prove that God chose the Watchtower in 1919 and they said they didn’t need to prove it because they knew it was the truth. They said that we are the only ones preaching and all other religions were false. They said it’s by our “fruits” you can tell. They said “who else can you go to?” No matter what I said, they had an answer. So many others are the same. Their heads just can’t let it sink in because the Watchtower has done such a good job of brainwashing those people that you’d have to put them in a room where they couldn’t escape and show them for days before it could sink in.
I have been racking my brain for months, trying to think of anything that would sink into those rock hard brains and the only thing I can come up with would be a book of the questions to readers with those 1,000 rules. Can that be done with all the copyright laws? I would sure like to see somebody do that. After all, when one signs a legal contract, that is what you have to do, supposedly read all the rules FIRST BEFORE SIGNING. I see young ones getting all excited and get baptized and then it’s not 10 years later, they are gone. I never knew why. I always thought it was because they “sinned” or something. Now I am thinking, it probably was because they weren’t aware just how much of a “straight jacket” this religion is when they were young and took the dip out of ignorance.
The Title of the book could be “The more than 1,000 rules one must follow if you are to make it through Armageddon and Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones following those more than 1,000 rules”.
Interesting, why do you think such a book/list of 1000 rules will wake them up? Especially just a collection of Questions from Readers will not work I’m afraid. A lot of those are about Biblical questions too, like the one about Rachel now. ‘How should such and such be understood?’ … not really a rule. A lot of these rules would be the judicial committee related rules, right? I guess most of the JWs won’t know them, and therefore dismiss them as “I don’t trust you” or “I don’t think they would handle it like that” or “They are imperfect men” or “These rules allow the organisation to operate smoothly” or “These rules are guidelines for our protection” or “They mean well with these rules” etc etc etc. But feel free to try to make a comprehensive list that any JW could agree with; perhaps some will start thinking. Let me give two:
1) Men cannot wear beards
2) Women cannot wear pant suits, even in field service (especially in winter time would be practical).
Good luck! :-)
Dear xyz, I agree with you that it is God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, who uses people who belong to Christ Jesus to witness about Him. Jesus promised the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who belong to Him that inspires born-again Christians to endure persecution and even death, a living testimony to their transformed lives, lives that are dedicated to serving Him.
But 99.9% of all Witnesses are NOT born again, and they do not have the “anointing” or indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The latest Yearbook statistics indicate that a mere 13,204 Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “anointed” and the rest don’t even think they need to be born again! Yet Jesus said no person would ever see the Kingdom of God, let alone be part of it, unless they were born again. How, then, can Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “the sons of the kingdom” when they have been excluded from it? They are not in the New Covenant, Christ Jesus is not their mediator and therefore they will die in their sins. That’s what Jesus said, and I believe Jesus. Please read John 3:1-8 and 1 John 5:1-18.
Please be aware that hundreds of thousands of Christians throughout the world are even now suffering persecution, torture and death for the sake of Christ Jesus – and I’m not talking about Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m talking about people who belong to Christ Jesus and who have been born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, people whose lives have been transformed and who bear the fruit of the Spirit as evidence. They are condescendingly viewed by Jehovah’s Witnesses as being part of Christendom, what you call “false religion” soon to be destroyed at Armageddon. Who are the Witnesses to judge other people?
If “the WTS preaching work has nothing to do with the true kingdom preaching work by the sons of the kingdom” then why did Witnesses devote 1,841,180,235 hours last year to the preaching work? My parents became Witnesses in the late 1930’s. I left the organisation after 1975.
Slightly off topic but the dreaded WT org gets a mention int he novel Metro 2033.. so funny the only mistake was the use of a beard and the fact it wasnt cultic enough..
So is there some new light on Matt. 24:14 now?
Isn’t this contrary to the teachings of what the bible says?
If this is Gods channel of communication then why is God changing even his own written word?
Doesn’t God himself say to stop judging so that you yourselves may not be judged?
Hasn’t this religion used a name (Jehovah) that originated with the merging of two names that originated with a Catholic Spanish Monk in the 12th Century?
Can any active JW answer those questions objectively and reasonably?
Please enlighten me!!
Hi Gareth. I am thinking if there was a book like that, say being sold in stores and it took off, it would be by people who are curious about the JW religion and if it got popular and a lot of attention might be drawn to it, that prospective converts might think twice about taking a Bible study.
When I was first baptized, I had no idea of all the rules until I’d say something like “good luck” or “don’t work so hard” or “golly” or “gee” and somebody would tell me that I wasn’t supposed to say that.
There are so many articles telling why we can’t get piercings and what we can and can’t wear and what we can and can’t say and what we can and can’t do etc. There are a lot of definite rules that we just learned gradually as time went along. I am just saying that if all these “rules” were printed out page by page from the Society’s questions to the readers, it would fill a very large book. There are a lot of insinuations too like if you go to college, you aren’t spiritual and are materialistic.
If you sign a contract for a business deal, it would pale in comparison as to the “rules” that we have to follow if we want to fit in and not be having somebody look at us cross-eyed every time we said or did something out of line.
Do you think it’s a crazy idea? I think it’s for those yet to get interested. I am hoping for a young person who is motivated.
adding to my last comment if there’s anybody who is motivated to write a book about all the rules JW’s have to follow if they want to live through Armageddon…
I remember an elder giving a talk in our congregation one time, that women weren’t to wear shoes that went flip, flop to the meetings because when they got up to go to the bathroom, everyone could hear the flip flop of their shoes hitting their feet and it was distracting. How about being late to meetings? How about how women aren’t to wear blouses to the meetings, because if the one handling the mics can see down her shirt, it was making it hard for him to not commit fornication? How about all the flip flops in doctrine like how those killed at Sodom and Gomorrah were going to be killed permanently and then not killed permanently and then then killed again permanently and how about the flip flops on blood? How about the flip flops on bedroom laws?
Who realizes when they get baptized, that they aren’t supposed to go to school reunions because if the kids can’t go to school dances, then the parents can’t to to school reunions because of “worldly” associations. How about you can’t have a job like a policeman or night guard because you can’t wear a gun? How about you can’t work for a church? How about you can sell cigarettes if you work for somebody else but you can’t own a store and sell them? How about the one where it wasn’t proper for married people to show affection in public because it would make unmarried people feel left out? How about where a married man could dance with young girls, not his daughters or other married woman, but first he had to get permission from the “head” of that other house but no where does it say in that question to the readers that it was any of the wife’s business if her husband danced with other young girls or other married women? How about if rape is fornication? How about having to have chaperones? How about what is not allowed to say so as to get yourself in trouble like arguing about something the Watchtower says that contradicts proven history or contradicts the Bible and how it can get you thrown out by saying such things because it might be construed as apostasy?
If a person were to go back to say, 1950, can you imagine how big that book would be? That is the open-ended contract we were signing up for when we got baptized but didn’t know it then. The list was long 30 or 40 years ago but that contract keeps getting bigger and bigger.
It is so misleading, when the Watchtower implies that all a person has to do is become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to make it through Armageddon. According to the very real and undisclosed Watchtower contract that is presented to potential converts, it’s a very complicated and a very narrow and difficult road to follow that is slowly disclosed AFTER baptism and that is the real contract they have to follow to make it through Armageddon.
If a person had a book like that in their hands when the next witness comes to their door and showed it to that JW standing at their door, I think that Witness would want to read it too. The householder could say to the Witness as he or she is holding that book up and showing it to the witness standing at their door “this is questions to the readers from the past 65 years, straight from your own literature and I will bet you anything, you aren’t even aware of most of them because if you were, you’d think twice about the religion you are so proud of.”
About the flip-flop shoes, I would actually agree the tapping could be very distracting. Most sisters I knew wearing (high) heels walk “tippy-toe” to avoid making noise on tiled floors. No one told them to do so as far as I know, it’s just the social thing to do. Anyway, a public talk about it seems excessive.
As far as writing the book goes (I’d recommend a webpage though), it seems to me you have enough valid points and also more than enough energy for it ;-)
I was a member of the WTBTS for 40 years, then left and found peace.
Joseph Zarola; The real “obliviousness” here, is the failure of all jehovah’s witnesses to recognize the persecution of Christians in the earth, for their efforts to educate, and bring the name of Jesus to the world. Over 125 thousand Christians are martyred each year in the most horrific ways, for daring to claim their belief in, worship of, and love of Jesus Christ.
Then there are the “Ex-Witnesses”, tirelessly exposing and revealing the hidden world of the most devious and misled peoples on the earth, jehovah’s witnesses. At the risk of losing everything from family, to homes, businesses, marriages and their lives, these men and women do not have any boundaries that stop their work, of re-directing the enslaved members of this cult, to a sobering realization of the degree to which they have been lied to and controlled.
Real Christian freedom is not measured by numbers or percentages, it is measured by the love of God that is extended to the captives of any group or institution, or organization that hides the Kingdom of God, in favor of creating a temporarily secure but benign form of worship.
The preaching method, and message given to the present-day jehovah’s witnesses is one of apathetic dis-involvement, that lulls the minds and hearts of their members into allowing death to become commonplace and expected, when the Bible clearly shows us that God knows when even a sparrow has fallen.
May we all continue to seek out those inside this organization, who truly love their fellow man and child, to the extent that their leader Jesus would go anywhere to find His lost sheep…anywhere.
I was brought up from birth into this denomination but left in the 1970’s. You make a valid point about thousands of Christians being persecuted every year – and they are NOT Jehovah’s Witnesses. Real Christian freedom comes when people realise that salvation does not come from belonging to an organisation, or striving to do good works in order to “earn the right” to be saved.
I am close to 70 now and I am hoping for somebody younger with more energy. Another thing that would be great to put in a book like that would to add some of the stuff in it like what’s in the “secret” elder’s book. Wouldn’t that be a hoot though? Even if nobody does it, I think if any Watchtower trolls are watching here, maybe it might put a scare into them if somebody actually goes ahead and does it.
I think talking about flip flops because of the noise they make, I do think is anal. Who can live up to all these silly man-made rules? We had a talk in our hall, not long ago that we can have a clean house from the outside but what about our sinks and toilets?
Rules, i have had a beard, goatee now for over 12 months, they now leave me alone, but no priveledges, its quite silly, i am allowed to do hall cleaning though, even if they call that a priveledge, my mother has noticed my slip, i reminded her the other day that she has lived her life since 1975 that armagedon would be here tommorow, well guess what 2015 is going to be 40 years, maybe that should be the 2015 theme text, 40 years & still waiting. My 2 teenagers are not baptised, people ask why not, i just reply with the question, “How old was Jesus?” thats a rule get em in young & early to trap them, or the other one is, you can’t marry unless you are baptised, another trap, baptise for the wrong reasons, it doesnt work, we have just had a fatherless boy disfellowshipped, he got zero help, they just wanted him baptised & when he went haywire they through him out, ive told his mother not to abandon him, this all makes me very sick & angry.
More rules, you must be baptised to make it through, show me in the bible where it says that, or if you don;t preach you will die as well, again where in the bible does it say that. They have alwys promoted 1914 & this generation, & that the good news will be preached & then the end, 100 years & now almost 101, so much for the dim wites who said this is it, we just remind them that if they think its going to happen at the international convention, then what about other countries having different dates, mmmm maybe it will be staggared. to many flaws my friends, the banning of religion, what about muslems, how could you ban that, it would create a world war.
Cedars you still need to answer my question regarding all the money they are making & where is it going?
I’m not sure I appreciate being summoned to give an answer to an off-topic question.
The simple answer is – I don’t know how much money Watchtower is making or what they are spending it all on because I am not privy to their balance sheet.
It is quite shocking to discover, in speaking with Jehovah’s Witnesses today, that they are so unaware of some very basic teachings of the Watchtower. For example, the ones I’ve spoken to have no idea the watchtower does NOT teach that salvation is by means of Faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. They insist that is what the watchtower teaches, when I post quotes, showing them the organization says we MUST be a part of the organization in order to be saved, they flat out deny this, I’ve even been called a liar. Also, they do not seem to know that according to the Watchtower, Jesus is the mediator only for their so-called 144,000, they firmly believe He is their mediator as well. Of course this is true according to scripture, but Not according to what the Watchtower teaches. If witnesses today don’t even know or believe This, how do you think they’d respond if you showed them the thousands of rules the watchtower says they must obey? Even when providing the direct watchtower quote, they refuse to believe it! (I tell them to check on jw.org, and ask their elders) They flat out refuse to believe that the watchtower says what it does. So sad.
Sally, any JW knows that if you start asking questions you are frowned upon, we are to believe everything blindly, thats why they quickly mark people as apostates, & from former knowledge that quickly can escalate to dis-fellowshiping, but i agree they need to no the truth, for many years i blindly beleived it, i even served as an elder for 9 years, but as the years have rolled on i have been having a lot of doudts, also the rule thing, so many man rules, they said to me that the reason i don;t have priveledges was due to my beard, it was a theocratic descision, well the CO overturned that, & i said to them its not theocratic its menocratic, the mens club, as the years continue to roll on i cannot even begin to imagine the lies that will be told to keep em faithfull, i cant wait for the backflip on 607 & 1914, just like the generation flip flop, If everything is true, then it paints God as cruel, because people who have been waiting for years for nothing & it paint Jesus as a liar, i didnt really mean this generation, i meant these generations, sorry,
“you still need to answer my question regarding all the money they are making & where is it going?”
Warren, that is the $64 million dollar question. The GB is so slick and has so many different names they hide accounts under, I haven’t came across anyone who can answer that question.
I tried to find their tax form for a non-profit on line, which I believe has to be filed publicly ever year. Wait, churches may be exempt from public filing. They have such a maze of names, I finally gave up.
I believe that is their most highly protected information ever. It’s seems pretty obvious they are not gong to be forth coming with that top secret information.
I wonder if they have to give that information to the members when they have their annual business meeting? Too bad I don’t know any of them.
If you find out, please share it on here, there are probably others who might like to know their financial information.
Sally, I know what you are saying and it’s true. I tried talking to 2 of our elders and showed the things I had seen right out of our own literature and it all went right over their heads and they went away thinking I had been lost to Satan.
On the jw org web site now, they threaten that if you use anything off that web site now and re-post it somewhere else that they can block you for copyright laws. What about if you photocopy articles and paragraphs from old Watchtower magazines? Is that against copyright laws too? Maybe if it’s against the law, a writer could just paraphrase it instead but put the place where it was found. I know that the rank and file wouldn’t believe it though if it was paraphrased and if they don’t have the Watchtower publication in their hand, they would think it was made up but what about the public? Maybe word could spread so that when a Witness went to the doors, the doors would be closed and nobody would listen to them anymore? That is my hope.
I was thinking that the title of a book like that could be something like “The Secrets behind the Watchtower that Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t allowed to know”. That seems intriguing to me and the idea may appeal to “worldly” people and if enough attention was brought to it, that a lot of people would buy it and word would spread until the Witnesses would be forced to see it for themselves, even if under cover of darkness. That is what I first did when I was finding out the truth behind the truth myself. My hands were shaking when I first went on JW facts and JW survey and I had to do it when my family were no where around. That is how scared I was and I am sure that is how the rest are also. But once I started seeing the cover ups and lies, I wasn’t scared at all anymore and the madder I got and less afraid.
I think if somebody knew a publisher and shot that idea across to them that they might want to see a book published like that, especially when the publisher realizes just how much we have been purposely kept in the dark about our own religion. If somebody is already disfellowshipped and put their name to it, they could make a bundle off of it. What a payback, right?
I have Watchtower volumes going back to 1965 and if anybody had them going back to 1950, there would be enough to fill a pretty large and interesting book, especially to rank and file Witnesses who have no idea what they have signed up for. I think if a book like that hit the best sellers list, it could spell the end of the Watchtower.
I have Kingdom Ministries going back maybe 20 years though and a lot of rules are in them too.
It’s the newer ones that the Watchtower is hoping to keep in the dark now. The older ones like me are aware of a lot of rules that we have been seeing over the years but the newer ones have no idea what are still rules or not.
Hello folks,
Your Cedars worshipping Momma’s Boy here,
Oh dear! How very childish!
I would have been embarrassed to write comments like that myself, but it takes all sorts to make this wonderful world.
As you know, I am an atheist and I do not believe that Jesus is my saviour, or that Eve ate a fruit or any other of these so-called truths. However, I still retain respect for the teachings of Jesus of Nazereth.
With this in mind, here is my opinion.
Jesus asked us to show mercy and compassion to all. No exceptions. Go and do that! When people ask you why you are being so kind, tell them it’s because I follow Jesus Christ. That is how to “preach” to people. That’s how Jesus did it.
As for this supposed day of Judgement – my question is why?
Sin entered into the world and death through sin etc etc. since when is it legal to convict offspring for a parent’s crime?
None of us had any say in that decision in Eden. We did not commit the sin, so why are we automatically punished by being sinners from birth? Remember, Eve had no warning that any punishment would extend to all her offspring, did she?
It simply is not just to act in this way. Even if it did happen after this defence, it is JESUS CHRIST who will judge everyone. Will he kill anyone who is innocent? Will he kill anyone who can be redeemed? I think not.
So, don’t worry! Do what is right, not what is easy. Show compassion to your neighbour and never walk away from someone you know you can help. If you do these things, you are preaching and you are doing what your saviour wanted you to do.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
[off-topic comment removed – please see posting guidelines]
[comment deleted]
Rowland, I deleted Biggiecuzz’s inflammatory off-topic comment precisely because I didn’t want an atheist v. theist firefight on JWsurvey. This website is dedicated to helping Witnesses out of Watchtower’s undue influence. There are plenty of websites where atheists and theists can go toe to toe – this cannot be one of them. I appreciate your passion on this subject, and I share it to a large extent, but please let’s stick to the script and not get sidetracked by those who are spoiling for a fight.
Excelsior, I think your comment “Jesus asked us to show mercy and compassion to all. No exceptions. Go and do that! When people ask you why you are being so kind, tell them it’s because I follow Jesus Christ. That is how to “preach” to people. That’s how Jesus did it.” is spot on.
Jesus whole life and message was about love. To love God with all that we are and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. To treat other people the same way we would like to be treated.
As Jehovah’s Witnesses we were taught to judge others and be critical of those who were not Jehovah’s Witness, an elitist attitude to be sure as “we were the only ones who had the truth”.
It is no one’s right to judge anyone, not even to judge ourselves. God gave the assignment of judging to his Son, Jesus. Jesus can read our hearts, so only he is in a position to decide who is and who is not worthy of his blessings.
I think your advice is wise: “Do what is right, not what is easy. Show compassion to your neighbour and never walk away from someone you know you can help. If you do these things, you are preaching and you are doing what your saviour wanted you to do.”
Excelsior, I’m for one am glad you are on this site, your comments are kind and encouraging to all of us who need it. I also have noticed the respect that you show others, even if there is a difference of opinion.
We are a better site for having you on here, IMHO.
@Cedars,
You allow all types of off-topic comments on this web site but you can’t let me pose one question to one of your regular off-topic posters? Seems like you are just as judgmental as the JW’s.
Sticks and stones.
I can’t catch every off-topic comment, being only human. But when I do, especially a comment designed to start an argument over a difference of beliefs, I remove it.
Do you have a problem with our posting guidelines? I have excellent news – you can find another website, or start your own.
Cedars, I know you have not asked for my opinion, but I have one anyway.
I have to agree with Biggiecuzz on this one.
I know these are your topics and most of us stay on topic.
We have gotten off topic before because as your readers, we have no way to communicate with each other, unless we go off topic.
Your average daily visitors is 3,079. That’s a lot of visitors!!
I have seen personal comments on here that my heart told me I had to respond to, on topic or not. I think from time to time, we all need some extra encouragement. Or we may have a situation and need some input from someone who we think will understand us.
Speaking for myself, I would be distraught if we did not have the freedom to go off topic.
Personal attacks are never appropriate, IMHO.
imacountrygirl2 – this is not a forum. Yes, we have a growing community, and yes we do allow a great deal of freedom of discourse, but we need some rules. The fact that I don’t have as much time to enforce these rules in each and every instance as I would like doesn’t mean people needn’t respect them.
And I am more inclined to enforce our “off-topic” rule when the comment in question is intended to start a fight or attack someone else’s beliefs (or lack thereof), hence dragging the page even more off-topic, as this one was.
It wasn’t just off-topic, it was a spark for an evangelical firestorm. Bordering flamebait.
I’m glad someone else saw it before I removed it.
@ anonymous. “I have Watchtower volumes going back to 1965 and if anybody had them going back to 1950….” The WT cd-rom goes back to 1950 with the wt mag and 1970 with the awake. The following website has all of the WT’s publications printed pre 1950 :
http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/books-and-tracts/
Instead of continuing on what is wrong with the watchtower org. and its rediculous teachings (been there) I have and am searching Truth in EVERYTHING. As I learn truths(revealed by thought, reason, and reading I see how yes, false so much of the teachings of the Hallowed Bible readly are. Good is Beautiful. Truth is what was, is , and shall be. Thank you
According to the Apostle Paul, anyone who accepts Jesus
has no need to be overly concerned, (Or coerced).
Jesus has paid their debt,.. They now have the FREE GIFT
OF LIFE. Not death at Armageddon, Rom,5/17. Rom,6/23
NWT.
Then the con artists emerge, ( The Religionists ) , and claim
the gift is not really free, you’ve got to start paying back,
you’ve got to earn your salvation. And we are the authorised
collection agents. You can make cash donations, pay tithes.
or sell literature, and you must serve our interests permanently.
Don’t be taken in, The Bible says your debts paid, wise up to
the con men , people like Rutherford, who admitted he’d
been a bluffer all his life, and now his pupils in N,York.
Thank you that info Jimmy. I just spent about $50 ordering 1961, 62,63 and 64 Watchtower bound volumes off of Ebay and am looking at a set of 51-59 and a 1960. If I get all those, I will have to find room for them though. This might take me a few years but I think it would be a fun thing to do in my old age. Just paging through those old Watchtowers is amazing and brings back a lot of memories. There are so many crazy things I could put in a book like that, like the one where it was wrong to play chess because it was too “violent” and the article about how a Christian wouldn’t go to see the movie E.T. because he’d have to be a demon.
I think putting in those statistics that John put in this article would be amazing for most Witnesses to think about. The Society never explains any of that to the rank and file. I think most don’t want to bother their brains about it though and just “trust” in Jehovah that he will do the right thing.
I remember in 1975 when the Society was pushing that it was going to be the “end” of this system, thinking to myself at the time “but wait, so many people are still coming into the truth, so why would Jehovah destroy the world of mankind when so many people are still coming into the truth???? But I couldn’t tell anybody what I was thinking because they would thought that I was implying that the Society didn’t know what they were talking about and I didn’t dare to “question” the Society.
I never really did believe in Armageddon but yet in the back of my mind, the fear was always there, “just in case” they were actually getting this from God after all.
I wonder if the Governing Body really believes in Armageddon or not, since a thinking person could never conceive of a “loving” God, killing billions of people who have never even heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Are they deceived deceivers or just deceivers? I think deluded deceivers.
I was reading in Apocalypse Delayed by M. James Penton that the Governing Body having “body guards” goes way back to at least Knorr’s time and the biggest reason he said it was to insulate themselves from the “ordinary” rank and file (question then is are they part of a regular congregation) and so as not to answer questions from the press.
I think a good question to ask them would be “Is it true that Jehovah is speeding up the work?” I think they’d say yes. Then why if Jehovah is speeding up the work and he doesn’t want anybody to be destroyed, isn’t he capable of having a “witness to all the nations, BEFORE the end comes???? “Isn’t all thing possible for Jehovah?” Of course they have to say that those countries who haven’t got Witnesses in that country bear “community” responsibility or else a “thinking” person would come back with with the question then “why would I think that Armageddon is imminent? Why am I going out there knocking my head against all those brick walls and wasting my life away, when there are all those people who have never even heard of Jehovah???? Armageddon must be hundreds of years away.
I think the reason they isolate themselves is so they don’t have to answer any questions from actual, honest to goodness people with a half a brain in their heads.
This is a question that I have posed to a few active JW’s: “Does your neighbour really understand the issue of Universal Sovereignty?” The response had always been “No” so far.
The follow-up question is then “do you think a just god will destroy the vast majority of humans that don’t even understand the basic issue at hand. Of your closest neighbour doesn’t understand, then what do you expect from anybody else?”
Here is the deal: the preaching is just busy work. It enables them to push the almost converted to make a public stand on issues, which then gets them emotionally involved. They then become trapped into defending beliefs before they have even had the time to properly mentally confirm them. If they never get to the confirmation step, they are then in for life.
What a nice and up building comment, Excelsior.
Thank you
I imagine it would be useless for the ones that are going to be baptized to be told about the 1000 crazy rules that govern this organization. By then they are completely brainwashed with the thought of never dying, the seeing their dead loved ones on the earth, the end being imminent ,etc.
However, one thing that should be mandatory would be to explain to them thoroughly theSHUNNING policy.
They can never leave the organization for ANY reason, much like the Mason, Illuminati and other secret societies.
If they do they would lose everything: all their friends, including the best friend, their parents, children, grandchildren, every single person in their life connected to
The “truth”.
Somehow I suspect quite a few would think twice.
Newly baptized ones are never told about this or the degree in which this badness is perpetrated.
In Apocalypse Delayed, Mr. Penton points out that even though most Witnesses don’t go along with each and every rule or doctrine or reasoning of the Watchtower, they don’t disassociate themselves because they think that in “Jehovah’s due time”, he will step in and fix the organization. That is why they all continue to hang on. I know that was my attitude. That is the biggest reason it is so hard to talk reason into the vast majority of Witnesses. First they have to lose faith in Jehovah and then next comes the Organization, from what I gather from Mr. Penton’s reasoning.
It was my personal experience that I first had to lose faith in the organisation before I could leave. It was my sister’s personal experience that she first had to discover the extent of the scholastic dishonesty of the organisation before she could leave.
It was both our experience that it was God, through the Holy Spirit, who was drawing us out of the organisation.
The danger in loosing faith in Jehovah is that some ex-Witnesses have become atheists or agnostics because they failed to realise it was the organisation that was at fault. Instead, they blamed God.
Best thing we can do for Witnesses is pray for them that the Holy Spirit will open their eyes, unstop their ears and soften their hearts so that they can receive the true gospel.
Hi Lesley, per our non-evangelism guideline I would appreciate if you could restrain yourself from using our comments section to postulate on why people (not just Ex-JWs) become atheists. Speaking for myself, when I initially freed myself from Watchtower mind control I was still a believer in the mold of Ray Franz. I only went on to embrace agnosticism when I realized that the same evidential demands I was making of Watchtower teachings could be made of the bible, and indeed religion in general.
Forgive me but I did not realise my comments fell into the category of evangelising. As for atheists, my comment was merely in response to what Anonymous said about losing faith in Jehovah. It is a fact that many ex-Witnesses lose all faith in God after they leave. I have no apology to make for saying we should pray for Jehovah’s Witnesses. I merely share my personal experience in the hope it will make others stop and think.
You’re allowed to say that YOU pray for Jehovah’s Witnesses. You’re just not allowed to tell everyone else to, just as I would think it rude and inappropriate to order everyone to read Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris books. The non-evangelism rules swings both ways and protects both camps. You don’t have to apologize for breaking it, you simply have to refrain from doing so.
Cedars, my sincere apologies to everybody who has been offended by my post. Allow me to rephrase by saying that my sister prayed for me for ten years and her prayers were answered and I continue to pray for Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Lesley Mitchell,
I was a God believing Anglican for far more years than I had ever been a Jehovah’s Witness.
It was principally Bible and Koran study that converted me to atheism.
No worries, thanks Lesley.
There does seem to be an air of smug satisfaction with the British Witnesses I am in contact with. The only way out of that is to cast doubts on their belief in being ‘God’s sole channel of truth’. They tell people to examine their religion. It is time they did that with their own.
Imacountrygirl2 and Gameisover,
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It makes me happy when folks understand where I am coming from and appreciate what I, in my small way, am trying to do.
You see, I do not consider faith verses non-faith to be a battle ground. There is no need for us to fight. We all want the same things, after all.
For those with a genuinely held faith, consider this. Does my personal opinion have any effect on God? He would still exist, even if folks like me do not believe in him, wouldn’t he? All his promises would still be true, as would be his purpose for humanity.
Similarly for those, like me, who do not hold a faith, consider this. Do the honestly held beliefs of those with faith have any effect on scientific knowledge? Of course not!
Live and let live. Treat all with dignity and respect. Stand up for what is right.
These principles are common to all. We can choose to divide ourselves into faith verses non faith or we can work together to bring hope to the hopeless, justice to those abused, and freedom to the oppressed.
That is what I want to do. I want to help people. If I do help, and it seems that I do, then that makes me happy.
Please, folks, there are little children and young people being abused by evil people in our ex religion. There are people facing the cruelest shunning and there are dear women out there forced to stay in abusive relationships.
We ALL agree that these crimes are WRONG.
Let’s work together as good hearted people and respect our differences.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Dear xyz, I agree with you that it is God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, who uses people who belong to Christ Jesus to witness about Him. Jesus promised the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who belong to Him that inspires born-again Christians to endure persecution and even death, a living testimony to their transformed lives, lives that are dedicated to serving Him.
But 99.9% of all Witnesses are NOT born again, and they do not have the “anointing” or indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The latest Yearbook statistics indicate that a mere 13,204 Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “anointed” and the rest don’t even think they need to be born again! Yet Jesus said no person would ever see the Kingdom of God, let alone be part of it, unless they were born again. How, then, can Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “the sons of the kingdom” when they have been excluded from it? They are not in the New Covenant, Christ Jesus is not their mediator and therefore they will die in their sins. That’s what Jesus said, and I believe Jesus. Please read John 3:1-8 and 1 John 5:1-18.
Please be aware that hundreds of thousands of Christians throughout the world are even now suffering persecution, torture and death for the sake of Christ Jesus – and I’m not talking about Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m talking about people who belong to Christ Jesus and who have been born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, people whose lives have been transformed and who bear the fruit of the Spirit as evidence. They are condescendingly viewed by Jehovah’s Witnesses as being part of Christendom, what you call “false religion” soon to be destroyed at Armageddon. Who are the Witnesses to judge other people?
If “the WTS preaching work has nothing to do with the true kingdom preaching work by the sons of the kingdom” then why did Witnesses devote 1,841,180,235 hours last year to the preaching work? My parents became Witnesses in the late 1930’s. I left the organisation after 1975.
I have been on the JWD website for nearly 10 years and I personally enjoy the exchange of ideas. If it is ran by WT agents, then they obviously do a very bad job as most of the stuff there is very negative of the WT. So, I don’t see why I should not post there… seriously.
The only thing I hold against JWD is that it is has not been updated in years and some commonly new features would be nice to have on that site.
Instead of commenting on James Penton’s book Apocalypse Delayed, I should have just quoted from the book and let the reader decide which comes first, the chicken or the egg.
In his conclusion, he is talking about why the majority of Witnesses stick with the religion, even with all it’s failed prophecies. I am going to quote directly from his book on page 303:
No religion in the modern world demonstrates the tremendous potency of millenarian ideas more obviously than do Jehovah’s Witnesses, even in what has been often dubbed a ‘secular age.’ It shows the willingness of millions to trust in the prophetic authority of certain individuals or a group even despite the fact that time and again their prohecies have proven false. Then too, it indicates how, by using a date-setting eschatology which has long promised great rewards – both spiritual and material – to the Bible Student – Witness community, men such as Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Franklin Rutherford, and their successors have come to wield an almost ‘Orwellian’ influence over it.
But the question must still be asked, how can this be? Unlike Tertullian, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not proclaim a faith based upon the absurd; they are rationalists par excellence. Of course it is evident that many ordinary Witnesses are simply unaware of the failure of apocalyptic prophecies made by the Watchtower Society in the past and the many logical contradictions that have always been present in the society’s teachings. Few are either old enough or have been associated with the Witnesses long enough to be aware of their early history, and they are not encouraged to delve into it. As for doctrines, unless one makes a concentrated study of them, it is difficult to become aware of even a small number of the incongruities, paradoxes, and outright distortions of historical truth that have been and are present within them.
Yet ignorance is not the only factor which keeps Jehovah’s Witnesses loyal to the Watch Tower Society. Like many Christian sects, the Witnesses have long seen themselves alone as ‘spiritual Israel,’ successors to natural Israel. Thus while the more sophisticated and knowledgeable among them often are aware of many of the serious doctrinal and organizational problems created, in the last analysis, by their organization’s date-setting eschatology, they will frequently argue that while their leaders may be ‘wicked’ as were many of the kings of ancient Israel and Judah, in some ways, God is directing their community, their ‘nation,’ for an especial divine purpose. In the end, they hold, Jehovah will cleanse his organization and remove those who have ruled them with harshness and injustice. ……
However, there are other factors which cause most Witnesses to remain loyal to their leadership and the society. They are, as Joseph Zygmunt has indicated, a world-denying ‘contrast group’ which is amazingly isolated psychologically from the larger societies in which it exists. Hence the average Witness is so preoccupied with the evils of this ‘dying old world’ and his involvement in proselytizing his neighbors that he usually has little time or desire to examine his faith or community objectively. Even should he wish to do so, he would be in danger of being disciplined, ‘marked,’ or disfellowshipped and driven from the community as an apostate. So, as the Watchtower of 1 January 1984 puts it, ‘loyal Witnesses do not so much as “touch” such apostasy.”
Then he goes on in the next paragraph to say how the Witnesses have a “siege” mentality, as classified as a paranoia. Witness leaders have reduced all issues ‘to a battle between Good and Evil influence,’ they manifest ‘qualities of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness and conspiritorial fantasy.’ and they emulate the past or present conduct of organizations such as the Church of Rome and the Communist party in following inquisitorial practices and carrying out purges. While their attitudes and actions have caused a good deal of turbulence within the Witness community and alienation from it, they have been able to rally the support of the majority of their followers who now ‘press on in the kingdom service.’. This does not mean that they do not continue to lose a large portion of their membership both to ‘apostasy’ and ‘moral uncleanness.’ They do, and they are deeply concerned about it. Still, so long as they convert more than they lose and continue to grow in overall numbers, their leaders seem determined to maintain the course, that in general, they have followed since Judge Rutherford created ‘the Theocracy’ in the 1920’s and 1930’s.”
Mr. Penton goes on to say that if the Society gets too much bad publicity, that they may be forced change their policies but he says as Ray Franz did in Crises of Conscience that he does not expect that to ever happen.
More powerful than bad publicity are expensove court cases and lack of subs and income from mag. pushers.
If there is any JW growth now it is largely in poor coiuntries which generate little income. Forced dunking of kids will be counter productive. The rate of apostacy will only increase.
Penton’s book was pre internet. Discovering the trith about JW TRUTH is now so much easier. It is not only in Europe but also even in the USA where agnosticsm and atheism are growing faster even than Islam.
It is difficult, fortunately, to see how the Watchtower, depsite its vast wealth, its mastery of the dark arts of cult mind control, its smooth PR, its wily expensive lawyers and its commercial nous, can continue to grow.
There was marginal growth in 2013, just about keeping up with the growth in global population, but the rate of growth has been on a steady decline since the advent of the internet. If present trends continue, a decline is inevitable.
Seems we’ve veered off topic a little. So perhaps I can add
my two pennorth, or two bits worth, ( depending on which
side of the Atlantic you live.)
I can’t believe the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon
or any other religious book I’ve been exposed to. All books
supposedly handed down in some miraculous way, and only
the word of some obscure person to support the claim.
And all full of such fantastic, often silly tales , that require
you to abandon all reason in order to believe them.
And if there is a creator of this fantastic universe around us
he would certainly not be the author of some of the rubbish
in those books.
As for the existence of a creator, ( And I hope I’m not preaching,
evangelising. ) all I can say is “We live on a highly complex life
support system, How it got here, I don’t know, It was here when
I arrived and it’s kept me alive for 82 years, as it has for every
generation for who knows how many years. It suggests to me
at least, advance planning. Wether such things can occur
randomly or are the intended product of a supreme intellect
each person will draw their own conclusions.
This particular topic seems to be something kind of mysterious that I remember discussing in many car groups. From my experience, people haven’t grasped the gravity of the teachings, because when discussing it with others, we have all kind of thought that Jehovah will see into peoples hearts, and really only destroy the wicked. We discussed it, probably because it was hard to imagine or accept Jehovah will kill all those poor people who have no idea about the truth, then after Armageddon, they will have an opportunity to find out, because there was no way everyone out there will be able to hear the truth. It was our local understanding. We however knew the truth, and knew our responsibility, so we had to do it, even if it meant Armageddon wouldn’t come in our lifetime. Even then, it never made a whole lot of sense, hence the frequent discussions. But after becoming awakened, the teaching shifted to the new teaching and “understanding” that Jehovah was going to kill unbelievers and also their children, and the “refreshing spiritual warfare”. And the birds of prey eating all the bodies. At that watchtower, my 4 year old son asked “Is Jehovah going to kill me?” That was the last meeting I attended. Brings tears to my eyes, I will never forget the people discussing and giggling at the comments about how fast the birds can eat a body. They are brain dead.
Yeah, Rowland, about those numbers, do you really think they are truthful? I say they are masters in lying about everything.
I suspect the numbers are grossly inflated..
I’ve seen them count at assemblies, Memorials, hours, bible studies, etc.
I wouldn’t put my hand in the fire regarding the “growth”. The real truth is that they going down vertiginously!!!!
If you are right, Gameisover, that is really great news. And since the initial charge and fine in the Candace Conti trial in 2012 we have heard neither the results of any appeal nor of the progress of the 11 other cases against the Watchtower brought by the same lawyers. Then there is the challenge to their charitable status, and their frantic plans to move HQ.
I hope the JW bosses feel under threat. Big cheers at assemblies can only give them so much reassurance.
By focussing on the myth of Armageddon J,W’s are missing
the big picture, The reality is that every single day thousands
die, supposedly , killed by Jehovah because he was angry with
a man who stole a bit of fruit from his orchard.
Since that time, Billions have been killed because that first
“Perfect Man” was stupid enough to listen to a snake, ( well
it was Jehovahs first attempt at making a man, What a pity
he didn’t try again.)
The numbers already killed, dwarf the number that would die at
Armageddon. Throughout history people have hoped their god
would intervene and abolish death, numerous expectations have
been aroused , Usually when some great crisis or disaster
occurs, ( Like a World War ).
The W,T,Org, Has excelled in creating expectations, At least six
predictions in one generation. And like all previous attempts
100% Failure.
At my age, many of my generation have died, including siblings
I’m just glad I wised up to the J,W, Org, 35 years ago and did’t
Waste all my life chasing the wind. Sorry folks but death is the
reality, no one can prove differently. What comes after, if
anything,,we can only guess. In the mean time make the most
of what you’ve got.