The Governing Body now claims that they as a group now occupy the role of the “faithful and discreet slave”, but this new teaching will be hard to explain
Reports are emerging of an announcement at the 128th Annual Meeting of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses now considers itself to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class of Matthew 24:45 in its entirety.
Previously it was understood that the Governing Body were merely humble “representatives” of the “Slave Class”, which comprised the 12,000 or more anointed remnant of Christians with a heavenly calling still on earth. Despite claiming to be “representatives” of this group of people, suspicions were raised in the minds of many thinking Witnesses after reading articles such as the Questions From Readers of the August 15th 2011 Watchtower, where it was admitted that the Governing Body has no actual communication with memorial partakers (the “anointed”) and even feels that some of these ones may be mentally imbalanced. (see w11 8/15 p. 22)
Many have predicted that, at some point in the future, the Governing Body would end this confusion by claiming that they themselves are the Faithful and Discreet Slave, with the anointed remnant playing no special role. According to numerous reports this has finally happened. However, this remarkable claim opens a labyrinth of fresh doctrinal puzzles that future publications must now attempt to explain.
Crowds filing in to the Jersey Assembly Hall just prior to the meeting
The Annual Meeting at which this “new light” was revealed was held at Jersey Assembly Hall (The Stanley Theater), New Jersey on October 6th – the same day that a sensitive Watchtower letter was leaked on the internet.
Although I previously reported in this article that the meeting was NOT broadcast to other locations, this appears to be untrue. The meeting had a total audience of 15,514 including those watching via video link from Brooklyn, Patterson, Walkill and Canada. Some in attendance took notes of what was said during the meeting, and have leaked this extaordinary new information online, so the news is gradually spreading around the world even though this “new light” has not yet been presented officially in the publications as it normally would be. (Update: to read about the printed explanation of the “new light” in the July 15 2013 Watchtower, please click here)
Anointed demoted – Governing Body promoted
The new understanding was explained over a series of six talks delivered by various Governing Body members over a two-hour period. The purpose of the talks was to impart the following adjustments:
- The Faithful and Discreet Slave was NOT appointed at Pentecost 33CE, meaning that there has not been a continuous line of members of the Slave Class on the earth down through the ages. The Slave Class was only appointed for the first time by Christ in 1919.
- The Faithful and Discreet Slave is a small group of anointed brothers during Jesus’ presence serving at Watchtower Headquarters who are directly involved in the preparing and dispensing of spiritual food. The individual members of the Governing Body are not the Faithful and Discreet Slave. They only act as the Faithful and Discreet Slave when they are working as a collective body in making decisions regarding the dispensing of spiritual food.
- The “domestics” of Matthew 24:45 are all those who are fed spiritually by the Governing Body, whether of the anointed or “other sheep”. This includes individual members of the Governing Body when they partake of spiritual food.
- The events described in Matthew 24:46,47 now refer to Jesus coming during the Great Tribulation and giving the Governing Body their reward in heaven along with the rest of the anointed.
- The “belongings” of Matthew 24:47 refer to all of Christ’s heavenly and earthly interests.
- Despite founding the Watch Tower Society, Charles Taze Russell was not part of the Slave Class because he was not alive and serving at Headquarters when Christ made his selection in 1919. The work of Russell and his associates was like that of the “messenger” in Malachi 3:1.
- The cleansing of God’s people is ongoing because, apparently, the bible gives two accounts of Christ doing a “cleansing” work, once at the start and once at the end of his ministry
In addition to the doctrinal changes, it was also explained that:
- The Governing Body members now make decisions based on a total majority, meaning that if a doctrinal understanding does not have full agreement by all Governing Body members, it is “shelved” until a future date.
- The lecture for Gilead and Branch Schools about the Faithful and Discreet Slave being 1,900 years old has now been deleted.
Many will wonder why such a profound new understanding of scripture was disseminated during a corporate meeting, and not through Watchtower publications
It is understood that the above doctrinal changes will be explained in further detail in future Watchtower articles. However, it could potentially be months before these articles are published and then studied at congregation meetings. Reports on Annual Meetings are not normally published until the August 15th Watchtower is released in April of each year. In the meantime, many brothers will likely be confused and bewildered that the Governing Body has made such a radical departure from their previous understanding of Matthew 24:45. Still more will wonder why these dramatic adjustments were not first published in a Watchtower article so that they could be simultaneously disseminated throughout the entire organization rather than announced to a select few at a New York corporate meeting.
Anointed Christians who entertain a heavenly hope will feel particularly aggrieved at this latest humiliation. As memorial partakers they had already suffered the indignity of being labelled as potentially “mentally or emotionally imbalanced” in the aforementioned Questions From Readers article of the August 15th, 2011 Watchtower. In the same article, the Governing Body bluntly dismissed the suggestion that there was any requirement on their part to contact such ones when deciding over doctrinal matters.
Now the 12,000+ crowd of anointed spread throughout the earth has suffered the final insult of being demoted as members of the Faithful and Discreet Slave in favor of eight men in New York who have deemed themselves the only ones worthy of this title. When it comes to teaching Christ’s followers, the anointed must now share equal standing with the millions of the Great Crowd as Christ’s “domestics”, even though they are supposed to rule over such ones as kings and priests with Christ at some future date.
A subtle use of words
It is noteworthy that this “new light” stops short of expressly naming “the Governing Body” as the Faithful Slave – rather a “group” of anointed brothers serving at Watchtower headquarters, which can only be applied to the Governing Body in our present day. This distinction is significant, because it acknowledges that there was no Governing Body as we know it prior to 1971 – only the Watch Tower Society Board of Directors who, as I have explained in a previous article, were informally described as a “governing body” (lower case) only from 1944 onwards.
There was no Governing Body in 1919 when Christ supposedly came to make his inspection – only Rutherford and the Society’s directors
The significance of this is that, if Christ had come to inspect the organization and appoint the Governing Body as his Faithful Slave in 1919 he would have been disappointed, because this entity would not exist as a collective decision-making body for another 52 years! However, if Christ was less specific and instead chose “a group of anointed men at Headquarters” at that time, then Rutherford as Watch Tower President and his board of subordinate directors were available to be chosen collectively as the Faithful Slave. Even if you are prepared to accept this rather bewildering explanation of Matthew 24:45 (a scripture that most people regard as a mere parable), there is one particularly problematic doctrinal flaw that the Society will need to address.
No scriptural precedent for apostolic succession
If Rutherford and his anointed associates were selected in 1919, then on what scriptural basis can it be automatically assumed that their roles as the Faithful and Discreet Slave were transferable, or could be “inherited”, by successive generations of the Board of Directors of the Watch Tower Society – which, after all, is merely a legal entity?
As Christ’s chosen apostles gradually died off they were not replaced, therefore how can a group of men chosen in 1919 still be leading God’s people today?
Part of the basis of this new understanding appears to be that Jehovah has always used a small group of people to teach and dispense spiritual food to the many, and that in the First Century it was the apostles and older men who were given this role by Christ. However, the bible provides no example of how those appointed by God to be his representatives may pass their duties on to someone else in the event of their death without God’s clear and unambiguous approval. (Numbers 27:18-20) The idea of someone inheriting someone else’s position because they have died is clearly a fleshly concept rather than a spiritual one.
True, the Kings of Israel and Judea were succeeded by their male offspring, but they played no distinct role in instructing the people. Most importantly, the arrangement of kings in Israel was not favored by God, but rather instituted to placate the Israelites who demanded a king to serve under in the same way as the nations around them. (1 Samuel 8:5-8, 19) It’s therefore inconceivable that a monarchic arrangement in which those appointed by God may choose their own successors would be a feature of “Spiritual Israel” – an institution that is not subject to the whims of humans but is of purely divine origin.
In the case of the twelve apostles appointed by Christ, once these died off they were not replaced by successors. Matthias was the only apostle “of the twelve” who wasn’t appointed directly by Jesus, but he was only appointed as a replacement of unfaithful Judas by the casting of lots. (Acts 1:23-26) The Society themselves admit that the reason for the appointment of Matthias in this manner was due to the unfaithfulness of Judas, rather than as a response to Judas’ death. As further evidence, when faithful apostle James died (as with the rest of the apostles) there is no record of any concern over whether a replacement should be appointed. Consider the following quote from the Insight book…
“Sometime during the ten days between Jesus’ ascension and the day of Pentecost it was viewed as necessary that another be selected to fill the vacancy left by Judas, not simply on the basis of his death but, rather, on the basis of his wicked defection, as the Scriptures quoted by Peter indicate. (Ac 1:15-22; Ps 69:25; 109:8; compare Re 3:11.) Thus, by contrast, when the faithful apostle James was put to death, there is no record of any concern to appoint anyone to succeed him in his position of apostle.—Ac 12:2.” – Insight On The Scriptures, Volume 1, Page 129
The Governing Body has long pointed to Christ’s apostles as a divinely approved model for their collective authority, but they have never once explained how Christ has any involvement in their individual appointment. They are now asking us to believe that Christ directly chose Joseph Rutherford and his anointed associates as his modern-day “apostles”, or Faithful and Discreet Slave, in 1919 – but they will never be able to satisfactorily explain how, once Rutherford and his associates died, the divinely appointed authority of these ones was conferred to successive generations of Watchtower leaders.
In the past, the Society was able to evade this issue with comparative ease, because they could point to the Faithful and Discreet Slave CLASS as being ever-present throughout history from Pentecost 33CE onwards (i.e. individual anointed ones were not “succeeded” by anyone on their death), with the Governing Body assuming an albeit self-appointed and symbolic role as representatives of these ones in recent times.
In the bible, God directly chose faithful men to lead his people. Once these men died, their God-given authority died with them.
Now, the Society has effectively scrapped the idea of the Faithful and Discreet Slave as a “class”, and now insists that the office of the Faithful Slave was bestowed by Christ on the shoulders of Rutherford and his associates in 1919, and this office was somehow passed down to successive members of the Watch Tower Society Board of Directors until the Governing Body arrangement was introduced in 1971. Thereafter, they insist that this “succession” continued as Governing Body members died and were replaced until we arrive today at a situation where eight individuals, none of whom had even been born in 1919, are now Christ’s “Faithful and Discreet Slave”. Not only does this sound incredibly implausible – most significantly there is absolutely no scriptural precedent for things to be done by God in this manner whatsoever.
In the bible, God’s favored way of doing things has always been to appoint either an individual or group of individuals to lead his people, and once these ones died their office (or position) died with them – unless God made clear that he was handing it to somebody else. In other words, God appoints people according to their individual merits, not based on who has gone before them. There is no reason to believe that God or Christ would do a complete U-turn and now do things entirely differently, especially during times such as these when the Earth is supposed to be on the brink of falling under Christ’s millennial rule, and divinely appointed direction is said to be needed more than ever by God’s people deep in these “last days”.
Why does Jesus need 93 years and counting to cleanse his organization?
It is also interesting to note that, according to reports, the Governing Body is now insisting that the organization has been in an ongoing period of “cleansing” since 1919. Whether this will be somehow used to explain the idea of succession remains to be seen. The Governing Body may try to claim that part of this ongoing “cleansing” involves Christ appointing new members of the Faithful Slave. Regardless of how they try to explain it, thinking Witnesses will wonder why Jesus Christ needs 93 years and counting, not to mention successive generations of Watchtower leaders, to cleanse his organization and impart divine truth.
A talk by Samuel Herd apparently attempted to reinforce the link between the Apostles and the Governing Body, but admitted that once these Apostles died the “restraint” was removed allowing apostasy to set in. As I have already asked in this article, how can the Governing Body justify likening themselves to every feature of the First Century apostles apart from the key characteristic whereby no apostles were replaced once they had died?
A poor choice of slave
Not only is the “successor” element of the Governing Body’s new teaching highly suspect, but prior to this new teaching questions were already being raised as to how Christ could possibly have chosen Joseph Rutherford and his associates as his approved earthly organization in 1919. There are two main reasons for this…
Spiritual Food – I have already published an article detailing how the publications of the Bible Students in circulation between 1918 and 1919 were not just partially inaccurate – they were shockingly misleading and downright fanciful in their application of scripture. There are few more obvious examples of this than the Finished Mystery, which spoke of the distance between the place where it was written and the place where it was printed as having prophetic significance, and described Charles Taze Russell as speaking from beyond the grave through its pages and supervising the “harvest work” even after his death!
Few Witnesses have read the Finished Mystery, so they are oblivious to the ridiculous and fanciful nature of its contents
In another of my articles, on InsideTheWatchtower.com, I have presented evidence of racist bigotry in the pages of early Watchtower publications both before, during and after Christ’s supposed inspection. Rutherford in particular described black men and women as a cursed “race of servants” in a Golden Age article ten years after Christ’s inspection was supposed to have taken place (see The Golden Age, July 24th 1929, page 702). Bear in mind that the Golden Age, the forerunner of today’s Awake! magazine, is still considered a vehicle of spiritual food just like any other Watchtower publication.
In summarizing the publications of the Bible Students that were in circulation during the period of Christ’s inspection in 1919, nobody put it better than former Governing Body member Raymond Franz when he said…
“A direct investigation of the publications of the Watch Tower organization in the years from 1914 to 1919 reveals none of the prudent discretion that causes a man to ‘keep his lips in check’. It would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it was teaching, uniquely and distinctively, as of 1919.” (Raymond Franz, In Search of Christian Freedom, page 145)
The personal character of Rutherford – I am still relatively recent in my “awakening” from the indoctrination of my upbringing as a Witness. Throughout my young life “Judge” Joseph Rutherford was frequently held aloft as a shining example of a humble servant of God, and to this day he is lauded by the Watch Tower Society as a man of great wisdom and courage. Such a depiction of him features prominently in the recent Faith In Action DVD series. Even so, the more I read about “Judge” Joseph Rutherford, the more I realize what a monstrous and vile man he truly was.
Rutherford was a bigoted bully who lived in luxury while his workers endured squalor. He allowed alcoholism to flourish at Bethel.
The Society’s problem with Rutherford is that, try as they may, they cannot prevent documented evidence of his questionable character from surfacing – especially since the internet has made it easier than ever before to share such information that would otherwise be hard to obtain. For example, I will shortly be publishing an article that will attempt to pull together some of the documented evidence of Rutherford’s temperament – in particular that which came to light during the libel lawsuit with Watchtower lawyer Olin Moyle between 1939 and 1940.
I will go into these matters in greater detail in my future article. However, suffice to say there is documented evidence connected with the lawsuit to suggest that:
- Rutherford allowed an atmosphere of alcoholism to prevail at Brooklyn Bethel, to the point where Bethel family members who decided to abstain from alcohol were ostracized and ridiculed.
- Rutherford was a bully, and used rude, abusive and patronizing words to humiliate Bethel workers that he disapproved of.
- Rutherford afforded himself a life of luxury with multiple residences across the United States while ordinary Bethel workers lived in cramped and squalid conditions.
- Rutherford was discriminatory in allowing one sister to get married and live in Bethel with her husband even though he had forced another brother to leave Bethel in disgrace because he chose to marry.
Added to what I have already mentioned about the racist material that was printed in Watchtower publications under Rutherford’s presidency, it seems inconceivable that Christ, who favored no race above another and encouraged his followers to be meek and humble, would choose a man of Rutherford’s bigoted and contemptible character to form part of his “original” Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Mark 9:35; 19:14) Even so, with this latest change of understanding, we are now being asked to believe that Christ not only approved Rutherford’s character, but found him and his associates the only worthy candidates out of all the humans on Earth at that time to form part of his “faithful and discreet slave”.
Fast forward to the 21st Century, and similarly we have a group of men who, despite having nowhere near as bad a reputation as Rutherford, still leave much to be desired in both humility and intelligence. As I have explained in another article, I recently started uploading videos to YouTube that focus on the words spoken from the platform by various Governing Body members.
One such Governing Body member, Anthony Morris III, boasts of disobeying orders from a superior during the Vietnam War, and even routinely calls himself “the Shoemaker” – insinuating that the guidance in his talks originates from his own wisdom rather than God’s. Anthony also uses a “monarchical ordinal” (a roman numeral) after his name to distinguish himself and honor his ancestors. Is this really one of the eight most humble men available on the Earth today for Jesus to appoint as part of his Faithful Slave?
Our current Governing Body members, supposedly chosen by Christ, are hardly shining examples of knowledge or humility
Outstanding intelligence has never been a prerequisite for those who are used by Jehovah. Moses was not a fluent speaker, being “slow of mouth and slow of tongue”. (Exodus 4:10) Jesus’ followers were said to be unlettered and ordinary. (Acts 4:13) Even so, in an era where the ability to communicate effectively is so important, it is surprising to observe the lack of basic knowledge in certain Governing Body members.
In one talk, Anthony Morris III coined the term “thinkingest” to describe Jehovah’s people, and in another talk Stephen Lett felt compelled to explain to his audience that God’s “express will” has nothing to do with express trains, or “expresso” coffee, but simply means God’s clearly stated will. The fact that Stephen saw the need to explain this simple term, or research it for his talk, raises serious questions as to his intellectual credentials as one who is called upon to teach millions of God’s people around the world. Again, would Jesus select men who fall so desperately short with even their basic knowledge of words to communicate globally with his people (or “domestics”) out of the billions of potential candidates at his disposal?
A Predictable Change
I’ve already mentioned that some have long predicted this new change in understanding. I myself considered the possibility a few times, but I felt it would be some time before I would see the teaching actually introduced.
Interestingly, some time ago we ran a mini-survey on this website asking “Who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”, and 15% of the 530 who voted said they thought the term referred to the Governing Body. This well-illustrates that a good number of Witnesses are already oblivious to the matter. It also gives evidence of the cunning way in which the Society has incrementally slipped suggestions of this teaching into its publications over some time in readiness for the change.
As an example, at the 2012 Safeguard Your Heart District Convention a new brochure was released entitled Who Are Doing Jehovah’s Will Today? Page 22 of this brochure carried the heading “Who Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class?”, and answered the question (in part) as follows…
“They are genuine, spirit-anointed followers of Jesus. The ‘slave’ dispenses timely spiritual food to fellow worshippers of Jehovah. We are dependant upon this faithful slave class to keep giving us our ‘measure of food supplies at the proper time.’” – Luke 12:42 (Who Are Doing Jehovah’s Will Today?, p. 22)
Most people reading this paragraph before being told of the new “understanding” would fail to spot that the word “all” is crucially missing after “they are” and before “spirit-anointed followers of Jesus” in the first sentence in bold. Whether the omission of this word was deliberate is, I suppose, a matter of conjecture – but it seems more than a coincidence that, just a few months after printing this brochure, it was announced that NOT “all” spirit-anointed followers of Jesus are to be considered part of the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Supposedly, only eight individuals in Brooklyn now have this special role in God’s purpose.
What this change means
All of this is first-and-foremost about increasing power and control. By claiming that they are now the Faithful and Discreet Slave in its entirety, the Governing Body reinforces their authority over the organization and their influence over millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world. Rather than, in the minds of many Witnesses, being theoretically answerable to a larger group of thousands of anointed fellow worshippers who they claim to serve as “representatives”, they are now answerable to nobody but Christ. Nobody can question their position because, just as with the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, they can now claim their authority has been granted to them directly by God through Jesus.
By dispensing with the rest of anointed as part of the Slave Class, the Governing Body has more blatantly assumed Pope-like authority
Even though I understand their reasons for making this change, I believe it will cause more problems for the Governing Body than it will solve. Not only have they opened up an entirely new Pandora’s Box of doctrinal issues in their need to explain plausibly how the 1919 Faithful and Discreet Slave has magically become the Governing Body of today – there is something even more troubling that they should concern themselves with.
Many Witnesses were already baffled by the total authority assumed by the Governing Body, and how they have wielded this authority as representatives of the Slave Class without any communication with their anointed fellow christians. This was indeed a major source of doubt for me, and one of the many things that led to my eventually “awakening” from my indoctrination. The obvious disparity gave me the courage I needed to research my beliefs more objectively.
Now that the Governing Body has so brazenly swept aside their anointed colleagues and stripped them of any significance whatsoever in the dissemination of truth to God’s people, I feel there may be a backlash from thinking Jehovah’s Witnesses who were already harboring serious doubts but who will now feel “enough is enough”.
There are only so many lies and deceptions that you can load up on an intelligent human being and ask them to take seriously and base their entire life upon before something snaps. Eventually these falsehoods become too numerous and too hard to believe, and (as happened in my case) an individual will finally decide they have had enough. I believe this may happen on a considerable scale with Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world once this new teaching becomes widely known.
More Witnesses may leave the organization as they realize that the Society’s teachings are becoming increasingly ludicrous
Added to the already considerable downsizing in the organization caused by a slowdown in global growth, it may be that before long we will start to see the number of publishers enter negative growth as those who are already mentally on the fringes start to leave the organization in droves. Only time will tell whether the new teaching will play a significant role in this likely exodus, but the downsizing of the organization has already begun, and I certainly don’t believe this new teaching will improve matters for the Society.
Over the years the Governing Body has grown increasingly arrogant and out-of-touch. You can only hide those sorts of attributes for so long before they become plain for all to see. For a while I entertained thoughts of new brothers being gradually added to the Governing Body who would see through the lies and do the honest and humble thing by admitting that they do not enjoy God’s blessing and eventually dissolving the organization – thereby setting millions of misguided worshippers mentally free. However, the more I observe the frequency with which the Governing Body is making mistakes both doctrinally and procedurally (particularly in relation to handling child abuse), the more I feel that the future of the organization will be irretrievably jeopardized far more quickly and effectively if the existing members are allowed to continue undisturbed in their obvious self-importance and ineptitude.
Summaries of this article are available in the following languages: Hungarian | German.
A PDF of notes taken at the Annual Meeting is now available, and can be downloaded by clicking here.
Please read my follow-up article by clicking here.
Thanks Cedars. I wander if another reason for starting the slave from 1919 is to distance themselves from all the mistakes and rubbish that Charles Russell spoke. They still have to deal with Rutherford, but by taking Russell out of the equation they can limit the damage the internet has done which has been showing Russell’s many errors.
Alan, then it will simply focus on Rutherford because he is all over the net as well. As I have predicted, the JW religion will shrink as time goes by. Many thousands will leave and force this business corporation to change, again, it’s core doctrines and financial strategies to keep current members from leaving and attract new converts. When you awaken the “giant” of the masses, I don’t care how big your bank account is or how long one has been in business, in one day, it can all come crashing down.
I was wondering if its too much of a ‘co-incidence’, the timing of the 1 October Elders letter re child sexual abuse’s responsibility for reporting now being dealt with by the Bethel branch and this socalled ‘new light’ of the GB themselves being the FDS? Aren’t they opening themselves up to even more legal liability regarding child protection policies especially after the Candace Conti legal victory over WTBTS in June?
It doesn’t make sense to me.
Excellent info! I was just at the WY HQ yesterday Oct 8th. Didn’t know what they were doing inside. I should have rang their bell and spew out nonsense like they do when they come to MY door! LOL!!!
This is only ackowledging what the reality has been since the death of Freddy Franz. The GB (and previous Presidents) have acted independently of the supposed FDS class and never acted as their representatives. It is also significant that we return to the supposed 1919 choosing by Christ, a long perpetuated myth. Don Cameron in his book Captives of a Concept blows this myth apart and subsequently any claim of supposed representatives of a FDS class or a GB to have divinely given authority over the current 7 million witness is baseless.
I too think they want to distance themselves from the WTS eyebrow raising beginings and Russell’s quirky and embarrassing ideas and relegate him to place they keep people like George Storrs, Tyndale et al-people who were searching for the truth but had not yet been chosen by Jesus who came invisibly in 1918.
Regarding Rutherford,they have to come up with something else, another new understanding of something LOL.
Now that we know the identity of the FDS, does this mean that the GB can be sued for their policies that have destroyed the lives of thousands of childrens ?-Can the Australian case Uthank vs WTS be re-opened?
The Watchtower has no idea of what they are even talking about.
Isn’t Satan the god of confusion !.
How in the world could they be faithful,
John sees the Lamb of God with the 144,000 who were bought from the earth as virgins to co-rule with Christ.
,How in the world could they be virgins when they , were sleeping with the enemy ( The United Nations ) for almost 10 years.
Oh I they probably will say , this group is a new batch , since that NGO adulteress affair.
Well then they had better awaken because the Watchtower representatives are still engaged to another sister branch of the NGO called OSCE. Barbara Anderson posted that finding.
So they are still hanging out with the coming eighth king ( The UN ) .
Really makes one wonder ,how in the world could they be faithful. Just where do they put our King Jesus Christ IN THEIR LIVES ???
If their claim is that NOW ,as the governing body they are also the anointed Faithful slave, then they have a serious problem.
which god anointed them, not the almighty God that we know.
Friendship with the world makes , THEM A ENEMY OF GOD.
This is utterly amazing. This might be the straw that breaks the camel back…one can only hope. Thank you for sharing.
I find this article on point. The “new light” does no surprise me. I saw it coming after these recent years, the WTS has presumptuously placed itself as mediator between Christ and his followers, uninvited by Christ to replace him as the mediator. It was a slow change, and they are indeed becoming ‘pope-like’ – the parallel between Orwell’s 1985 and the thought crimes we thinkers are guilty of is staggering.
I will be honest – I hope this conceit will be noted by honest JWs. As an Atheist, it is easier for me to take this – but where will the ones holding on to faith go? It will take a lot of courage for those who will stand up for Christ instead of man. I wish them well – or may reason bless them.
Another great article! I know you have to put in a lot of time and energy into this site and you are doing an excellent job of keeping us informed on all of the latest information, thanks again Cedars! I know there are those out there who want reform but it is so corrupt from the top with too many false teachings and mind control. It just makes me sick how much of my life was waisted with this mess of a religion. I keep hoping a huge amount of people will see the “real truth” and leave in droves and stop giving their hard earned money to the org. I am newly out and still going through the angry stage. I feel for those that are still in and have no idea what the real truth is. I hope this “new light” will make people question and start searching and studying the vast amount of information out there that will give them the “real truth” or TTAT!! Keep up the good work!
Coming out with new light at the annual meeting is not surprising. They hold the corporate part separately and have always used this meeting as a special assembly. Many things that have been released as new light in articles were talks from the annual meeting.
Thanks Eliza. I am aware that Annual Meetings have been used in the past to reveal “new light” on occasion, however I struggle to think of a doctrinal change of such magnitude that has been disclosed at such a meeting in recent decades – unless you can think of some examples? Of course, it may be the Governing Body are hoping to sneak this “adjustment” in without too many people causing a fuss. Perhaps their disclosing it in such a manner reveals their assumption that people have already drawn this conclusion for themselves.
Thanks everyone for all the kind comments. I have barely stepped away from the keyboard this weekend and I can’t remember doing this much typing in a long while – but hopefully it was all worth it! When the news comes in, you need to be on your toes…
Cedars, thanks for your efforts. This is a thought provoking article.
On the jw.net website, someone posted an announcement on one of the JW pages on FB regarding new light on the FDS and new understanding on Matt 24:45-47.
Cedars, have you seen this on facebook(am not on facebook, so I cannot verify)
Here is an excerpt:
***
“What about verses 46 and 47? It says, happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you he will appoint him over all his belongings. Vs 46 mentions Jesus arriving. This is not in 1919 when he appointed the FDS but when Jesus comes during the Great Tribulation. This is based on the fact that the Greek word for ‘arriving’ is similar to those in vs 30 and vs 42 that mention Jesus ‘coming’.
So what are the ‘belongings’? Previously it was thought that dealt with the earth only. But the scriputre is not that specific. So the belongings include the heavenly and earthly interests. The authority over the belongings will be given after the annointed receive their reward in heaven. So, all of the annointed will eventually be given this authority.”
***
If the FB announcement is legitimate and the contents of the excerpt are true, then the WTS is going beyond the things that are written. They admit that the scripture is not specific and then go on to explain what the ‘belongings’ are.
Hello Saritaj, thanks for your kind words! Yes, I was shown this information at the same time as it was posted on facebook. Some of the information was used in my article. I haven’t gone into the same amount of detail as the person who took the notes because I don’t want to quote extensively from something that hasn’t come directly to me from the Society, but I have provided the general gist of the notes in the bullet points near the beginning of the article.
This is very interesting news (and an excellent writeup as usual, Cedars).
However, I have no illusions that this will change much for the rank & file. They’ve swallowed a lot of quite significant doctrinal changes in the past decades without difficulty, and in this case it’s a change that actually removes (or plasters over) a glaring inconsistency in their teachings.
In my experience, most JWs have two approaches for dealing with a seemingly disruptive doctrinal change: one, they simply believe it because it comes from the F&DS, even welcoming it as “new light”. Two, they brush it off as something that is not really significant, because all in all it’s still the best religion there is, and where else should we go? Case closed.
dubless, thanks for your comments! I agree to an extent, although I think it’s possible for us to become quite jaded once we “awaken” ourselves. We sometimes fall into thinking that NOTHING will awaken a JW no matter how shocking or ludicrous it is, and we forget what it was like for us when we were first doubting. However, there are many inside harboring doubts (I would argue the majority of intelligent JWs), and I believe something as ridiculous as this will, given time, push a good number over the edge. The disappointment levels could prove to be similar to when 1975 came and went. We will have to wait and see.
Great article! Your journalistic writing is really improving.
One thing I noticed. You wrote, “… the Society has effectively scrapped the idea of the Faithful and Discreet Slave as a “class”.
Today’s WT Study article on page page 14, paragraph 10 stated, “For decades, the faithful slave class has
warned us about such sites.”
Interestingly, in each of the next four paragraphs was the phrase “faithful slave”.
For the last few years, there has been MUCH discussion and debate on the sites regarding this subject. Many XJW’s have made the claim the GB has already taken this position by their ‘subtle’ comments. (Perhaps to soften up the field of understanding for the coming change) Only to be villified by debating JW’s for being so wrong. “They would NEVER take that position!.” Well, there are quite a few certain argueing JW’s that must feel abit humiliated right now. I wonder if this will cause them to awaken?
You’re probably right. Let me put it like this: I think this will be yet another issue that might drive some already doubting JWs over the edge, but it’s not going to be the silver bullet that kills the organisation as we know it. That didn’t even happen with the 1975 fiasco, let alone the “generation” thing in the mid-1990s, or anything else since then. I think ex-JWs tend to be a bit optimistic (or pessimistic, depending on viewpoint) in this regard.
I think it’s one of the paradoxes of sects/cults/high-control-groups that doctrine is constantly emphasised, but has in fact relatively little effect on whether people stay in or not.
So, I wonder, if we need spirituall food, then we need to go on this site.
Hi Fred, yes it’s interesting that you’re now finding out about new light off the internet, purely because the Society chose to talk about it infront of a select few at a corporate meeting rather than waiting for it to be released globally simultaneously in the literature. I’m not sure this was the wisest or most “discreet” decision on their part, but then who am I to question God’s appointed spokesman?!
I bet you’re looking forward to my Rutherford article. I know it’s a topic that’s close to your heart!
Very well written post Cedars! Keep up the good work exposing this CULT for what it is.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are quick to see themselves in the scriptures when they want to, but refuse to see themselves portrayed negatively. They are like the man described in James 1:22-24. They humbly say that they are disciplined by the scriptures, but in reality they look at themselves and then go off and immediately forget what sort of men they are.
When it comes to verses of scripture describing the last days, they take delight in seeing themselves as the only ones fulfilling Matthew 24:14, but they refuse to acknowledge that they are just as guilty of fulfilling Luke 21:8, “Many will come on the basis of my name and say ‘I am he,’ and ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.”
They point out the fulfillment of 2 Timothy 3:1-5 as happening today, but fail to see themselves as the ones spoken about in verses 6 and 7, “For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”
Well, as it says in verse 9, “Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their madness will be very plain to all.”
Change to the understanding that 1935 marked the end of the gathering of the anointed was based on appearance. Questions from Readers in the May 1, 2007 Watchtower stated, “as time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8:16, 17) Thus, it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.” It begs the question whether scriptural understanding comes from holy spirit or “Oh look, it appears…” And, of course, from this evidence came the notorious overlapping generation theory.
This change to the understanding of the faithful and discreet slave will be a god-awful mess. What does it mean for the same observation found at Luke 12:41-48? Who are the other slaves mentioned in these verses? If the FDS are only the Governing Body who now make up the slave that thinks his master is delaying? Who constitutes the evil slave? In Matthew chapter 25, who are the foolish virgins?
What with this and the overlapping generation theory, they are getting themselves completely tangled up in their own scriptural misunderstandings, and their madness is becoming very plain for all to see.
How do they get 1919 anyways? I don’t know if this is the current explanation. Once I read that you have to count 3 years and a half from October 1914. You get those 3 years and a half cause Jesus was death 3 days and a half, so you have to count 1 year for one day. And that is how they get it. So by that time (1919), Rutherford and all others got out of prison and started preaching again. So that was the sign that they had been appointed? And they never knew that they had been appointed? In the Proclaimers book it says that in the year 1943 they had to change Jesus’ arrival to 1914. I wonder when they started to make up 1919…
Hello Spanish bro, thanks for your comment. I may produce an article on this at a later stage, because it’s quite interesting. To summarize, the “three and a half year” period (Rev 11:2,3) is from December 1914 to June 1918, which is when the Society Board of Directors received their jail sentences. There was then, based on Rev 11:9-11, to be a period of “three and a half DAYS” of spiritual inactivity over which period the temple was to be cleansed with Christ finally approving the organization. Interestingly, the jail term lasted 9 months, but the Society still insists that this 9 months was the “three and a half days” because it was a relatively short period of time. Then, when Rutherford and his associates were released in 1919, Christ chose them as his organization. So 1919 is based on no scripture whatsoever – purely the length of the jail term.
I find this all quite amusing. The FDS are the ones providing spiritual food at the ‘supposed’ proper time & seeings as though we are soo close to the end this spiritual food should be now 100% accurate and actually no longer subject to change. Yet they still see the need to refine their teachings & serve up what can only be described as dog food. Clear to anyone actually listening they aren’t divinely inspired..
In my JW days I would simply have been a nodding dog & have accepted everything that was told me.. A good few will be rocked by this change and will actually start to wake up, but more than a good many won’t….
This is just about having total control, and effectively dealing with the increasing number of partakers…unfortunately,most JWs are too indoctrinated to notice. .hopefully, it just might trigger some into awakening.
To illustrate how much of a shock to the system this will be for some…
I spoke to my Dad and asked him, “If there was new light and it was announced that the Governing Body is now the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and not all of the anointed, what would be your reaction?” He prevaricated quite a bit, but his answer was essentially that there would need to be “very good reasoning behind it” for him to accept such an understanding. I know full well that he will accept it anyway, but it’s still interesting to hear his reaction before he gets brainwashed into accepting it. He will also, hopefully, remember our conversation once that happens.
1914,1919… “operation of error” doctrine promulgated from the man of lawlessness who have sat in the “Temple of God” – above all anointed ones – The false presence as warned by Paul in 2 Thess 2:1-12
1914 is a deception: exatoverdade.blogspot.com.br/2012/10/the-kingdom-of-heaven-belongs-to-jesus.html
More Contradictory and doubled standard teachings:
What about all that history that the Council in Jerusalem (Acts 15) was a “proof” that there was a “Governing Body” during the first century????
Get out of her My People!!
Ahh…they indeed claim now they are 2.0 GB (FDS feature added) …old ones were 1.0 GB version
When i read the part about the on going ‘cleansing’ the very first thing this brought to my mind was a back handed way of pre-explaining why there will be many people who leave after hearing this. They will say the cleansing is still going on today, and that those who cannot or refuse to keep up with Jehovah’s fast moving spiritual chariot will be left behind.
Pure evil. They are bring themselves ever closer to being a mirror image of the pope. Next they’re going to ask us to kneel down in their presence.
It seems that the Governing Body has for some time been sneaking in little clues that it would go in this direction. When I attended a local district convention last June, much of the closing session was filled with statements like “we must obey the Faithful and Discreet Slave” and “the Faithful and Discreet Slave decides what is best for us” – clearly implying that it was the Governing Body acting in that capacity. I have been surprised that only 15% of the mini-survey answers indicated that the GB was the FS.
I recently received a comment from a reader of one of my websites who reported that he was publicly dressed down by a Circuit Overseer after a Watchtower Study. His mistake? While answering a question during the meeting he happened to use the phrase “the Governing Body, being the ‘faithful slave,’ directs and provides us with the knowledge we need.” The CO told him directly that the Governing Body and The Faithful Slave WERE NOT SYNONYMOUS and that such a statement “had obvious roots in apostate writings.” He was told to be very careful about what he said during the meetings and that he should “stick to what is written in the paragraphs.”
Yes John. I’ve been looking at some of the more recent publications, and nearly all of those touching on this subject appear to have been worded in such a way as to not contradict this “new light” in the future, thus minimizing the number of publications that will need to be “updated” and sneaking the teaching in gradually. Very clever indeed.
Wow! That’s just incredible. It really is
Still have to wait for official letter or article on this, hope it is true though will help many with doubts to wake up.
As Cedars pointed out already, the whole idea of ‘Old Light’ and ‘New light’ is controversial. Suppose You got sick after eating at some restaurant because the food obviously was old (out-dated). Are You likely to ever returning to that restaurant and what will happen to all other guests having been potentially poisened by the ‘old Light’ (sorry, – food).
Even though it is written that ‘insight’ would be provided on a bit-by-bit basis, there must be a significant difference between NOT providing detailed information (since it is yet unkown) and providing FALSE information for a long time. This simply cannot be in the mind of a loving Good. Sorry to admit but the whole thing makes me wonder if the GB is under devine control. However, I might have missed something important.
I hope my words are understandable since my English is not too god.
Greetings from Sweden
Fluently written but doesn’t focus enough on the scriptural perspective, particularly an honest examination of what Matt 24:45-47 actually means. Those scriptures were not even quoted, which is poor. Also doesn’t explain why we can confidently say that a FDS must have existed before 1919, such as C T Russell. Instead the article quickly resorts to ad hominem attacks and shallow character assassinations of Judge Rutherford and the current GB. Rather disappointing article.
Wombledin, rather than resorting to your own “ad hominem” attack on my article, perhaps you could specify exactly what your own reaction to this “new light” is. Are you in agreement that the Governing Body should now be considered second only to Christ?
Also, I expressed in the article that Matthew 24:45-47 is “a scripture that most people regard as a mere parable”, which is a viewpoint I share. I therefore didn’t see the need to go into a laborious examination of a scripture that is being entirely mis-used in the first place.
Cedars
With regard to the so called spiritual food being dispensed in 1919 besides the main culprit of false teachings and prophecies The Finished Mystery, the false Millions Now Living Will Never Die public lectures were being given. The first of these was given by Rutherford in Los Angeles on Feb 24, 1918. Although the Millions booklet was not published until 1920 the lectures and articles in the Watchtower and Golden age from 1918 falsly prophecied 1925 as the date for the begining of the renewal and start of Christ’s millenium reign. It was claimed that this was a God given date. This is yet another reason why the 1919 claim to divine appointment is a lie, unless we are to believe God and Christ deliberately impart incorrect information which they then later correct through imparting “New Light”. A useful video on the Millions material can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24y40r2edY
Why do you waste your time with a religion that your not part of anymore. You people seem to be paranoid of how this organizatin of JEHOVAHS WITNESSES operate and etc. You show extreme WEAKNESS buy being complainers like Satan. Have you people here partner up with Satan as his new personal co-pilot in bashing this religion who you just cant seem to let go from within your mind?! WHAT A BUNCH OF WEAK FOOLS YOU REALLY ARE!
We learnt how to do that when we were active JWs and were regularly shown how to slag off other religions.
We were well taught wern’t we.
Thanks Steve for your warm-hearted and christian response! Was there something specific about the article that you didn’t like, or are you just frustrated and feel the need to rant at a bunch of people you don’t know?! It’s interesting how you allude to Satan in your comment. Isn’t he supposed to be the “father of the lie”? So, when we uncover lies in JW teachings, who should we attribute these to?
Hello Steve. I agree with your intention but disagree with your perceived lack of insight into the bigger picture. Some of us former members of the WBTS still have family members within this organization. So, what we do here may involve personal matters and concern for our loved ones. Look at it this way: If I was your loved one, asleep in a burning building, becoming overcome by smoke, and you drove by and saw the flames leaping from the roof, wouldn’t you do all you could to alert me? Same with the perception factor of being inside the WBTS organization and being outside the WBTS organization. While in, I could not perceive the simple idea that Father is all I really needed, not the deceit of the organization. Now, from a different vantage point, outside the organization, the deceit can be acknowledged and an alert may be sounded. Will you even partially relate to what I’m saying? Thanks in advance for making time to learn of a different point of view.
This latest lunacy doesn’t surprise me at all. But there is something different now, then when I left in 1979. The ‘urgency’ of Armageddon no longer is the big drawing card anymore. Also, so many have left who have begun websites to help JW’s and exJW’s who are leaving or have left. My wife remains a JW, and I really am praying that she can survive when things fall apart for the WT Society. I am now a Christian and this is really the only true healing for those who suffer such a bitter pill to know that they (I, etc.) were taken for a ride. The bitterness and anger are intense, as I had after leaving. But, as Christ is my Saviour, I do not have that feeling anymore. I am a member of a Presbyterian church and serve as an Elder. I never would have believed I would ever want to serve in any capacity again. But, when you know Jesus loves you and has forgiven all your sins, and thus, you love Him, well, that has made all the difference in the world for me. -Genesis 50:20 and Romans 8:28 -Ernie
Hello Ernie. I relate in some areas with you about the leaving process. I was disfellowshipped in 2001 for unrepentant adultery and drug abuse. I was told by my wife of the time I would wouldn’t survive “in the world”. In 2004 I learned what perfect love is when Father sat me under a bridge for two weeks and allowed me to know Him, as my discipline. I eventually ended up in psyche ward in 2004 after making the statement, “I refuse to go back to serving the Devil”. I even attempted reinstatement into the WBTS, then realized there is hope apart from the WBTS. Since that season of my life I’ve come to realize Father is all I need and the Bible is the only book I need to read. I still have six siblings three children within the society who will have nothing to do with me.
Not only this site Fred , But Jehovah has opened the whole internet to us. But you want to be selective .
What other reason would the Watchtower, keep one from wondering into our land of freedom . : )
Stop and ponder for a minute, When was the last good spiritual meal anyone recieved from within the Watchtower. The governing body have been flip flopping back and forth for years about being the FDS.
When Jesus does arrieve, just who do you think will be appointed ? Certainly no one from with in the watchtower, they have already proven unfaithful. So the question still remains
Who is the faithful and discreet Slave ?
I believe one key to this is what this ‘slave’ does: “to give them meat in due season” (Matthew 24:45 King James Version) The church in the Apostles’ day already had clearly outlined what we would call ‘officer’ in a church: Pastors, Elders, Deacons. It would fall to the Pastor, or the Minister in a church to ‘feed’ or teach and preach God’s Word faithfully. Each person in a church is ‘called’ to a service in a church. The confusion is that after leaving JW’s we really have no concept that a church, or any church would have the right idea on who should preach the gospel as an ordained Minister. We all share in preaching and sharing the gospel, but in a church, one man is called and ordained to be a Minister of the Word, a teaching Elder. See 1 Peter 5:1-3 which shows that Peter called himself an “Elder” and that Elders were to feed the flock, which shows this Elder to be a Minister. The idea of ‘callings’ has never been really taught Biblically to us as JW’s and the Biblical idea of a ‘faithful and wise servant’ never meant an elite group who rule over everyone. The Bible concept of Church government is a Teaching Elder (Minister), Elders who govern with the Ministerin oversight in a church, and Deacons, who provide service and physical help to people. Each Church is to be ‘governed’ this way. I know after leaving JW’s, I didn’t want to be ‘governed’ by anyone! But, in time, as I read the Bible and heard sermons on this subject, I could see that my stumbling block was really the abuse of power by JW leaders or th governing body. We often confuse what the governing body did to us and carry it over to churches and life outside the organization. It takes time to get our thinking straight! It takes time to trust any lawful authority over us again! I know. I’ve been through the journey and I’m ok now, thanks to the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. I also serve as an Elder in my church! So, ‘what hath the Lord wrought?’ in me? He healed my anger and bitterness to go on with my life in serving others in a faithful church. A long journey. A painful journey, but, worth every painful step!
“Papal Authority”
As head of the Roman Catholic Church, the pope is the supreme spiritual leader of the Church and controls the church doctrine. With over a billion followers, the pope’s decisions impact societies and governments all over the world.
“Governing Body Authority”
As head of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the G.B is the supreme spiritual leader of the organization and controls all doctrine. With over 7 million followers, the G.B.’s decisions impact followers and their families all over the world.
I can’t see any difference here other than size? Where is the relevance in either example to what our true “head” left for our posterity through the words of himself and his apostles? John 14:6, Matthew 23:10, John 15:26, 1Cor 11:3
Ale jaja toc to drugi Watykan !!!!
Translation for above comment is
‘but eggs are the second vatican too!’
I find that the problem is an interpretation of what Jesus said about feeding. Where does it say that Jesus finds them feeding as they should be. Jesus asks it as a question which is presumed by GB to mean which of those all claiming to be a slave of Jesus is then the real slave who is doing this? Thus showing one is appointed and the others are fraud christian churches. However, the emphasis on those who claim that role versus the one who actually takes it up does not actually say or prove they are feeding properly. Who is feeding at the proper time is rhetorical, especially if the one chosen by Jesus is sleeping like bride and bridesmaids when the hour is here already. Examples. 2005 onward are posts of FWB (friends with benefits) yet 2012 and articles are just coming out for 18 year olds who were 11 when their friends at school pushed for these orgies. So too now you have 3-ways on TV (Men Men &Half) or at the theatre with Streep. How many years before marriages are warned by article? and yet what about all the single people who watch this and think it must be publically acceptable to seek 3-ways all week. Jehovah & Jesus do not see nor understand how a GB who can not print an article on the purpose of genitals in marriage being one that forbids fudge packing and yet they can enforce who must get a marriage license (or define it as fornication) while others in the USA they give a license to marry against court order to remarry do to child support not being paid. I see this as Jacob reinstating the DFd Joseph only if he apologizes to his 10 brothers, and confesses of his pagan priest-wife (divorcing her) or Jacob refuses to move to Egypt.
Vamos aguardar tal mudanças na Sentinela. Mas dá perplexidade ver em pleno século XXI as pessoas serem robotizadas e perderem o senso crítico…
Above translation
Let’s wait for such changes in the Watchtower. But you see bewilderment in the XXI century people being robotic and lose critical sense …
The people hate it when the USA President who wins isnt the one they voted for. Yet then for 4 years all you hear from both sides who voted for and voted against is gripes of how worthless he is as a President. Then a decision is made to kill your sons as soldiers in the mass murder of some small country and you all swear to be behind the President. The decisions of Israel were all made by Moses. He didnt wish it that way. He said I wish all of you could have this insight (prophecy, which means se outcome of truth) that i have. He couldnt handle so much and asked his father-in-laws help who wasnt an Israelite. The people didnt wish to use their own eyes to see Jehovah, in fact the WT turned the good thing (during judges) of “each man did what was good in his own eyes because their was no king” (Jehovah was their king) into the bad thing saying it was chaos, they did as Eve did. Yet having Moses they griped he had a Cushite wife, and yet they let 10 men decide for them to stay in Sinai (not go into Canaan) and blame it on Moses for bringing them out of Egypt. I still hold in my heart that it is the WT at fault, not the GB, but if they be these 10 spies then Paul is correct, as all 144,000 Jews were lopped off the tree to be 144,000 adopted by Jesus the Jew, then so too these 144,000 Christians can be lopped off the tree by the decision of just 8 spies (as Mordecai told Esther she could be cut off, if she doesnt obey the cry to save her children). And an immediate replacement could be found by Jehovah without going to pagan Christians.
It would appear that this maybe the the first step in the subtle ground work for disavowing 1914 and the invisible parousia of Christ reign. First you nullify the man, and then his teachings.
Candidly many of our early doctrinal beliefs came not from Charles but rather were ” lifted” from the groups Charles associated with.
As we all know there is a big bubble that will burst when 2014 comes and goes. How do you explain Jesus hanging around for 100 years, seemingly doing nothing after he came to power. His whole life on Earth as recorded in the gospels was one of action.
Likewise that of his father, instead of humbly admitting that that they might very well be wrong, because why the flock might lose faith in them and how would our reputation look. They would be better served to worry about their standing before God and his Son Christ Jesus.
Your statements about the Pope are incorrect I have to point out. Catholics do not see the Pope as being unquestionable. It is only in the pronouncement of an infallible statement that the Pope is infallible; and those normally are backed up with the other bishops (since the Pope is the bishop of Rome). Just for future posts that you make. Great article.
Your point is moot. Infallible is infallible. It doesnt have to be the whole Pope. Or one declaration; or an approved declaration by bishops. To make any word as infallible as a human defines it, even if it turns out to be infallible when redefined or reworded by God Himself. The word of the human being was not infallible. As Jesus said I am not good, no one is good, only God is good; he makes his point that only God is infallible in word. Because how ever we define it wrong, God can redefine it in an infallible way. So the Pope is exalted above his reality, as jewish high priests were, and as you claim GB or FDS is.
People, the world…needs to start taking seriously the barbaric and cruel, brutal, brutal caveman, stone age mentality and treatment of Jehovah’s Witnesses towards the Mentally Ill! This is a systemic and world wide issue that has devastated and ravaged, savaged lives since all things are considered to be spiritual and a personal failure and shortcoming so no excuses or considerations are provided! Homes and property and jobs, lives have been completely lost repeatedly to homelessness and disfellowshippings after years, decades of protracted physical and emotional abuse and crimes as just happened at Moon Valley congregation in Phoenix. It’s silent because no one knows or cares about the “Non People” and the victims suffer in silence believing they deserve it or this is what is suppose to happen. Or Jehovah expects it from them and some might not even know or fully understand what is happening..
Dear KtotheRAD, What just happened at Moon Valley Congergation ?
What ever it was may be silent only because no one knows about it.
Please share, because we do care.
I just watched Nightline and its unbeleivable the crimes that exsist in Chicago. Children cannot go out to play for fear of getting shot by cross fire. Many have , Inteviews showed that they live day by day,not knowing if they will be aive tomorrow.
Not from lack of food or war, or a devistating earth quake or tornado, or the plauge, but from shededing innocent blood, just for the sake of killing.
We are living in a violent world.
What? is ARJW not enough for you? I am offended.
MM
please explain what and why are offended
Hi Susanna, Yes there are bad people in the world, but that must not blind us to all the good in the world. Here in UK, it is headline news if there is a murder or other terrible crime. That is because it is not the norm that happens thousands of times each day. It is the exception. Thinking the world is a wicked place is what JWs try to fool everybody with so as to recruit more members. It was the best day of my life when I finally realized that actually there are a lot of great people in the world.
A comment was removed because it was offensive.
You removed my comment because it was true, thats why i make sure i post them elsewhere too, so i can inform the world how you removed it.
I removed your comment, and subsequent comments, because this website applauds the courage of Candace Conti, and her bravery in pursuing action against an organization that knowingly puts countless numbers of children in danger. If you continue to spam this forum with hateful messages about the Contis, I will not hesitate to have your IP address blocked.
Sorry alan – this website isn’t a democracy I’m afraid. I won’t give a platform to those who pour venom on the actions of Candace Conti, or give them the opportunity to redirect visitors to this site to websites of their choosing. If you want to find Richard’s venom against Candace Conti – use Google!
Totally agree with you Cedars. I was calling his bluff. I know you would never edit someone if they spoke the truth.
Actually just seen the comment as it went to my email.
He needs to let the law do whatever is necassary in this case. It actually does not matter what we as individuals feel It is up to the courts do decide where any blame lies, and then punish the person or organisation that is at fault
Alan,
Sorry I just seen you had addressed my comment twice.
I agree there are a lot of civilized people in the world.
I also live in a small community that is obedient to the laws that protect us ,.there fore its pretty quiet.
If it weren’t for the news media we really wouldn’t think the world is so bad, but the scriptures do say the whole world is laying in the power of the wicked one.
Even those that are not JW’s will readily agree,
What attracted me to the JW’s was the scriptures on the promised peace that Jesus 1000 year rule will bring.
If one cant trust Gods word, then what is left ?
By the way when I walked away from the Watch tower, it was because they no longer were in touch with Gods word.
Hi Cedars and everyone.
Susanna, you say: “If one can’t trust God’s word, then what is left?”
What is left is something that is far more real and tangible than “God’s Word”. It is people whom we can trust. People are far more tangible and real, regardless of what an organisation like the Watchtower Society tells their followers is the “truth”. Websites like JWSurvey and many others allow people to connect, communicate and support each other, just like God’s word. God’s word in the Bible is a means of communication and encouragement, but it only becomes a reality through a person’s actions when they help others.
This is what is happening now in the present, not something that happened two thousand years ago, and you and many others are building this support network for each other which is growing every day across the internet and the world. Isn’t this a much better thing to be part of? To be part of humanity, which is what Jesus was telling us, rather than be subject to a set of outdated, convoluted and unfair doctrines that tells people how to live their lives, separating themselves from others, rather than allowing them to make their own decisions and form opinions for themselves. It is vitally important to see the bigger picture, as people can and do change things for the better every day.
Since coming into contact with JW’s, I’ve been doing a lot of research into the WTS’ belief system over the past year and this website, among a growing number, is invaluable in informing people about the JW’s and the WTS in a balanced and fair way. It really does seem like another world to me – both disturbing and fascinating – the more research I do, and it’s hard to believe how many people are suffering silently under our very noses.
It takes a long time to process information, but Jesus’ message is very different and far more positive in the Bible compared to what the JW’s/WTS say it is. Research really is the key to understanding: the more we understand the stronger we feel, the more control we have over our lives, and the better equipped we are to then help others.
I hope you and many others continue to see that the world isn’t a terrible place, and that people actually aren’t under Satan’s control, regardless of their beliefs. Is the Atheist, Muslim or Hindu who does charitable works really under Satan’s control? If Satan controls them, does that mean that Satan is doing charitable works too? Are people really under Satan’s influence just because they have a different opinion or belief to you or me or the WTS? It is difficult to get away from a mindset like the one the WTS promotes, but just by posting your messages here you are definitely helping people, just as they are helping you when they post theirs, so please continue to communicate, support and research.
According to Jesus, God’s word can live within us, God working through each individual’s actions: ‘If anyone loves me he will keep my word… and we shall come to him and make our home with him’ (John 14:23-24) and (1 John 4:15-16). Yes, there is suffering in the world, but according to the New Testament it is God’s word which encourages and empowers us to communicate with and help others, summed up perfectly in: (Matthew 25:31-46). Clearly, even the smallest of “good works” can make a difference: (Matthew 26:6-13).
Rather than blame others for our problems and wait for God to miraculously fix everything, we instead need to take responsibility for our own actions to make a real difference, which is exactly the point of websites like JWSurvey and the Bible itself.
I find it very comforting, the fact that we can make a difference, and I hope you do too.
Thank you for the website Cedars, and keep up the good work!
Kind Regards,
DB
Dear DB
Thank you for your loving concern.
I might ask ,was Eve under Satan influence ? Of course she was.
I stick with what I said, If we cant trust Gods word , then what is there !!!.
I never said that the WT organization was Gods word. How could it be.?
They support everything that goes against His word. From their main doctrine of 1914 , every thing is built on that lie, that’s why they cannot give out any truths.
I call the Watchtower the modern day Pharasees.
John 8:44
New International Version (NIV)
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.*********
No, dear DB ,I feel that one must love Jehovah with their whole heart,soul and mind ,and their neighbor as themselves ,Jesus said these were the two greatest commandments..he also said,
John 4:23-24
New International Version (NIV)
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”**********
The word organization is not even in the Bible.
Jesus also said , let them be Blind guides, and they will all fall in the pit.
It is the Watchtowers greatest guilt trip that faith with out works is dead. That’s one way they got their empire built, by the sweat of the brothers brow. ( sick isnt it ).
I agree with you 100% in regards to the net work.
I thank sites such as Ceders and others that are indulging in helping others to break and get out of the Watchtower bond. I would not even post on a site where I didn’t see this happening,so honestly ,you have me all wrong, I am here as a supporter for Ceders.
I just wanted you to know, I appreciate the Internet as much as you do.
I would never use Cedars Site to advertise my topics , but in time I think you will run into them. Keep up the research
sincerely
susanna
Hi Susanna,
Thanks for replying. I didn’t mean to imply that you didn’t support sites like this one, or that you think that the WTS is linked with God’s word – apologies if my message came across like that, I think that a lot of my message was just me thinking out loud!
I totally agree with what you’re saying though about the WTS being the modern day Pharisees, and the two greatest commandments that Jesus said are the most important. Yes, the guilt endured by JW’s about faith and salvation through works must be very hard going, it really is tragic and a massive shame.
I think what I was trying to say was that the whole “deceived by Satan” thing is just another control method used by the WTS to discredit others and distract JW’s from the most important issues. According to the Bible, Eve was influenced by Satan to eat the apple, but surely this influence didn’t extend to everything else she did in her life. It’s very easy for the WTS to generalise along these lines, sweeping the real issues under the carpet so they are ignored and not dealt with. I’ll look out for what you’ve written elsewhere and I’ll definitely keep up the research!
Kind regards,
DB
Cedars’s don’t you think some of the reponses are getting too far away from the original topic. Some of the dialogues would better be continued privately rather than on this site. Anyway back to the main topic, a few thoughts. Designating the appointment of the FDS as in 1919 helps resolve a few difficult questions previously. For instance who were the FDS in the year 1000 AD. Who were the FDS that Russell needed to be intouch with to receive his spiritual food.
With regard to the 1919 appointment it will be interesting to see if any specific group is referred to. The WT editorial committee set up in accordance with Russell’s will after his death was dissolved by Rutherford about 1931 so they cannot qualify. Perhaps initially it will be claimed it was Rutherford and those imprisoned with him in 1918. Whoever it was the spirtual food distributed from 1919 onwards included the erroneous Finished Mystery book of false predictions and inaccurate information and the false prophetic Millions Now Living Will Never Die campaign. Infact Rutherford produced the vast majority of so called spiritual publications, broadcasts and recordings. Rutherford and the other Presidents and Governing Bodies have never consulted the remnant of the FDS CLASS and have never represented them as was claimed as they were and still are self appointed.
The 2007 dropping of the closing of the heavenly calling of the anointed in 1931 allows for a continuity of anointed Governing Body members born after that date without resorting to the replacement of failed anointed by others theory.
Where does this leave Charlie Russell in all this? Well I suppose he will be seen as just a member of Spiritual Israel or the Israel of God Rom 9:6, Gal 6:16 starting at pentecost 33 AD but as a special messenger along with Paul and the apostles. It will be interesting to see the eisegesic acrobatics the Governing Body will adopt to try to justfy their ever more controlling position in effect the FDS being the mediator between JW adherents and God.
“Cedars’s don’t you think some of the reponses are getting too far away from the original topic” or maybe they are just uncomfortable or insignificant to you? Did it ever occur to you that no one has ever had the opportunity after all these years to express these things? I carried heavy, heavy loads under the fear of “Bloodguilt” and a false sense of loyalty when I finally came to realize that I wasn’t responsible for the behavior or for keeping any secrets! I was raised to know right from wrong and the Bible is clearly written in English and German!
boy your angry, settle down people have a right to express how they feel, I mean how many JW were Catholics or whatever and are always having a say about their former religion.
You should be concerned as this position has never been scriptual nor is the corrent one, that should make you think and check out your bible.
sorry should have said who I was replying, post was to Steve.
Governing Body says: “We are the Faithful and Discreet Slave!”
Self-praise is not recommendation – proverb
Thanks Cedars.
This is huge. When I went through Gilead, I knew that the GB functioned as the de facto FDS, yet they refused to admit it. I still have my notes from the talk “The 1900 year old FDS”, which seemed unbelievable to me. Now they’ve dropped it, but unfortunatley, the sheeples will say “Oh, Jehovah’s given us new light!!!”
Thanks for sharing.
A@G
Are they admitting that each group of governing bodies before them were unfaithful/
May be a way of getting rid of the 1914 lie !!!
Are they admitting that all that proper food before hand wasn’t proper food at all !!
How could it be if according to them they just now became the Fathful slave,
which I might ask, what have they done to make up this faithful slave ???
Well, Susanna, I believe this is how they the gb handles things as they always have: this is ‘new light’. And, sadly, JW’s still go along with this. What word can I use except deception? Without the Lord opening my eyes I would still be in bondage to this cult. It’s not a problem of lack of intelligence. The problem is the need to be born again to trust only in Christ. Only then can theri be true freedom from bondage to the false teachings we all at one time believed with all our heart. Ernie
E I hear you loud and clear and also moved out, there for I am with you 100 %
Thanks Cedars. You have alot of hard work up here. It is appreciated.
Cedars, is it possible you are a part of the ‘evil slave’ who is beating his former fellow slaves? Anyway, Satan will be very happy with your ‘good and hard work” !
For Cedars to be part of or the evil slave, he would have to be willfully spreading lies about fellow citizens who disagree with him as being mentally diseased, deceitful in changing doctrine to suite himself, dishonest in accepting donations from congregations for kingdom hall building then lending back the money to congregations, authority grabbing in pre-setting requirements to obey the Faithful and Discreet Slave, then declaring himself as such, prideful in not admitting “wrong light” for failed predictions of 1914, 1919, 1925 and 1975, using conjecture in establishing his teachings, Pharasaic in establishing rules, evading taxes by switching to a “donation” for world wide work instead of charging a price for magazines, prematurely assuming knowledge about an unknown matter when remaining silent would be wise, printing trillions of publications about the Bible when the Bible is sufficient, loading time reporting burdens upon his friends to use as a yearly bragging report, and many, many, many other negative aspirations you can see in the GB. Cedars work speaks for itself. Research Cedars. Research Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and see who is an evil slave. Please don’t take this evidence as offensive. Please research it.
When I came into the org in 1968, the teaching was that the spiritual food comes from the FADS who were scattered all over the planet. I was told they would send in material to Brooklyn and then their work would be published. In recent years the society have been getting witnesses prepared for the downsizing of all the supposed members of the anointed scattered all over the earth.
Saying things like they have no special insite, and some of those taking the emblems at the memorial could be mentally unstable.
So it is really no surprise to most ex witnesses that they have made themselves the FADS.
The clever thing they have done, as I posted earlier was to make the FADS come on the scene in 1919.
So any false teachings of Charles Russell can now be said to be not from God, as he did not have any representatives on earth until 1919, after Russell had died
They fight a losing battle though, because there are still mountains of false stories, doctrines and wild guesses that have proved totally wrong since that date.
And as others have brought out, many of Russell’s teachings were kept for quite a few years later.
Thank you very much !
Great article, and good comments …
sky rainbow, you have it back to front, the GB are the ones beating the other anointed depriving them of fulfilling what they are to be judged for feeding the sheep, the GB are an elite group and have usurped the seat of Moses which belongs only to Christ.
I certainly believe they are trying to distance themselves from Charles Russell. I think they are now saying that the gov body only started around 1918/1919 after Russell’s death. This is probably because so many negative comments have come out about what Russell did and said. By getting rid of him and his false ideas, they only have Rutherfird’s mistakes to deal with.
“This is probably because so many negative comments have come out about what Russell did and said. By getting rid of him and his false ideas, they only have Rutherfird’s mistakes to deal with”.
Well they still rely on the 1914 date for the end of the gentile times which Russell picked up from Nelson Barbour. They also need 1914 as the date that Jesus began invisibly ruling to arrive at 1918-19 for his time of inspection and a mysterious small group at NY Bethel being appointed as the FDS. Remember there was no Governing Body then and it was not officially instituted as such until 1975 much to Fred Franz chagrin. In effect Rutherford was responsible for all that was published as so called spiritual food and signed off other material published in the Golden Age and Consolation magazine etc.
Now that the FDS class are officially out of the picture (in real terms they were never in) with regard to preparing and dispensing direction and scriptural interpretation, I wonder if they will still be counted at next year’s memorial. Any bets!!
Cedars, thanks for all the time and effort you contribute. Each of us has the responsibility to continue seeking for truth. That is why God gave us the Bible, and the ability to think and reason. The Watchtower loved to attack the churches, (especially the Catholics). If we simply take the same standards and methods, it is clear that the Watchtower is equally guilty of self-magnification. And I must agree with you fully – Rutherford is in many ways the creator of the monster that the Watchtower Society has become. It displays the same characteristics – a sickening professed “humility” towards God – and intolerance, abuse and malicious misuse of power towards the “domestics”. And don’t forget a love of luxury and abuse of alcohol. In poorer countries, where most of the publishers battle to keep alive, there is growing dismay as they become aware of just how well the so-called “faithful slave” is living. Which raises so many questions: where is all the money going? No more missionaries, cut backs in so many things related to the supposedly vital “preaching” work.
You are on the right track. FOCUS ON RUTHERFORD, get all those incriminating documents out in the public forum, and keep asking questions. If my family had known previously what we now know about that man, we would have run a mile before allowing ourselves to get entangled in his money-making schemes.
The other thing we could focus on is the truth about the preaching work. The WT Society really likes to praise itself over this. The real facts indicate, though, that it has scarcely scratched the surface, even in the western world, and is non existent in the Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu “fields”.
When one senior WT Official was asked about this, he glibly replied: “O, they have already been judged, because they choose to belong to religions that reject Jesus”. I kid you not. As if people have any choice where they are born. A recent magazine smugly commented that the WT Society has printed about 28 billion pieces of literature – 4 for every person on earth. And as we know – most of this was thrown away, given away, dropped off in letterboxes . . . . hardly what one could call a “preaching work.” Evidently the WT Society thinks that the printing press is mightier than the Holy Spirit – which powered the true Christians of the 1st century. Interesting times. We shall see more revelations yet. The WT Society has presumptuously appointed itself, and spoken on God’s behalf, saying many things that have proven false. So I don’t think God is finished with them, not until they have been thoroughly exposed. Then the true “sons of righteousness” will shine forth – a humble people, displaying the fruits of the Kingdom.
Most comments are just fantasies and contemplations of desperate losers.
skyrainbow, are you / have you ever served as an elder, regular pioneer, bethelite or on a circuit? If not, how would you be in a position to comment with any authority? It appears you are very immature and certainly very ignorant of what is actually going on behind the scenes. One question to start with:
The Watchtower stated that the “ancient worthies” would be resurrected in 1925, and the Society bought a house in California for them to live in. WHERE ARE THEY?
This prediction (by JF Rutherford) was a pipe-dream, or an alcohol induced hallucination. They same guy who said “millions now living will never die”. WHERE ARE THEY?
According to the Watchtower, even if a thing is only 0.001% wrong, that tiny bit of religious error will KILL YOU. Fact is, the Watchtower writings are RIDDLED with errors, big and small. So, according to them, you are all SPIRITUALLY DEAD.
Not so long ago, the Watchtower, trying to answer a question about the resurrection, ended up denying that “with God, all things are possible.” Did you read the article? Did you read their reply, which failed to apologise for being wrong, or for all the hurt the original article caused? Or do you just go blindly along, because this is the religion mommy and daddy chose?
cant address the posts so you insult, why bother coming here then, only to stir, you can’t defend your faith so you attack, how about addressing the topic.
Frank, you mean only elders, pioneers, bethelites, circuit overseers and of course Frank are in the position to comment here?
Maybe I am very immature and very ignorant but I am honest and loyal! And I don’t believe the propaganda of rancorous and frustated apostates and their old fairy tales.
And I don’t believe the propaganda of rancorous and frustated apostates and their old fairy tales”.
Then do some research. What the WT wrote, predicted, contradicted and reversed is all in print which you can easily access. Just look at one of numerous predictions, the 1925 prediction for Armaggedon through the 1920-25 Millions Now Living Will Never Die campaign which was claimed to be directed by God and claimed to be God’s date. When that failed no apology was issued (the brother’s imaginations had got the better of them). Many were disillusioned and the Memorial attendance dropped by 80% between 1925 and 1928. Well of course this would be claimed to be a ‘sifting work’, yet there is no instance in the Bible of predicting a date that did not occur. There are of course individuals or groups in the Bible who misunderstood or had premature or false expectations. However nothing WRTTEN by the Bible writers was later contradicted , reversed or failed. Peter explained why, because they were directed by the holy spirit 2Peter 1:21. WTBS claims to be God and Christ’s modern day prophet organization, his “Spirit Directed Organization” ( second baptism question) however a significant amount of what they have written has been later contradicted, oscillated, reversed and failed. Every prediction for the end of this system has failed and makes them false prophets, Deut 18:20, 21; Matt 24:23, 24. One of their latest predictions is that the present younger anointed overlapping the older anointed will not pass away before the start of the great tribulation (WT April 15, 2010, page 10). This has bought them a few more decades before yet another adjustment to the ‘Generation’ speculations will be required. Of course the great tribulation could start before then and the WTBS has since its inception in 1884 continually emphsised how close the end of this world system is despite Jesus warning at Luke 21:8 and Matt 24:42-44. Just stay awake!
skyrainbow, since you choose to judge us, and call us “apostates”, WHY ARE YOU POSTING ON THIS SITE? According to the Bible, you should NOT be associating or communicating with apostates. Do you actually study the Bible, the Watchtower and pay attention at the meetings? Anyway, you judge yourself out of your own mouth – by posting here you are being disobedient to the very Organization you claim to support.
And, if disobedient, then also disloyal and dishonest. Now, instead of making personal attacks on us, why don’t you supply some real answers to the questions I asked? Doing some meaningful honest research is the best way to cure ignorance.
Hi Alan, thanks for your positive comment. For the benefit of skyrainbow and others who may be following, I can say that my “frustration” iro religion dropped to zero once I put together the truth about the Watchtower Society, and broke free. For the first time in decades, I was free to really have a personal relationship with God, without the Organization standing in as a self-appointed mediator. More significantly, for the first time in my life, Jesus Christ became a reality that I could follow, instead of following ‘followers following followers’. I am free from the Watchtower’s obsession with knowledge, it’s endless speculation, its presumption in ‘going beyond what is written’, its interference in personal and family matters that are none of its business. Jehovah is interested in how we live, not in how many questions we can answer in the Written Review (for example). And devotion, faith and love cannot be calculated from a Field Service Report. The work that Cedars and others are doing serves a real need. It is not enough to just leave the WT Organization. One must see the evidence, and KNOW that you are doing the RIGHT thing. Didn’t Jesus say – ‘the truth will set you free’? Shalom.
Hey Skyrainbow, if you are so spiritual and loyal JW, then why are you even near a so-called Apostate website? As far as I know, JW are suppose to merely ignore any comments or propaganda made by again so-called Apostates and not intermingle with them just like you’re doing. If you’re faith is so strong as you portray it to be, then why are you so hesitant to defend it? Sure, is okay to defend it, but why are you being so hostile as if you are not even sure anymore of your own faith? Also, doesn’t the Watchtower teach to treat everyone nicely and with respect as they proclaim to be God’s people? I mean really, if you are just going to bash me like you have done to everyone else in this forum, you might as well leave. And one last thing, if you are so sure of your faith, then why do you keep coming back here?
Hi skyrainbow, what was it that Frank said that was not true? And in what way is he a frustrated apostate?
What he said about 1925 was totally true. You can check it yourself if you want. Also what he said about Rutherford’s message of 1919 was true about millions living now will never die.Again check it yourself.
I would be interested in your comments
Skyrainbow, do you know the difference between “dissent” and “disloyalty”? If you do, please explain.
Frank 2
Here’s my point, Skyrainbow (what a pretty name!):
“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
These were the words of Ed Murrow, journalist and impeacher of Senator Joseph McCarthy, the latter who led America into one of history’s longest and most effective witch hunts against suspected ‘Communists.’
Interesting as it is to see you, a loyal one, reading this site, you need to remember that many who come here are not ‘disloyal’ ones, but merely dissenters. They make argument which comes from being prepared NOT to accept any policy or doctrine without question.
Need I remind you that “absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Many do not agree that a clutch of imperfect men awarding themselves the most powerful religious position on Earth should be accepted without question.
Tell me, will your high-quality absolute loyalty move you to stand on a bridge in white robes if ordered to? Would it cause you to drink cool-aid in a complex in Guyana? When you become a much-valued elder, will you turn a blind eye to a personal friend who is accused of child molestation, believing that deep down inside he’s probably a nice man?
Some say this is a “perfect organisation run by imperfect men.” Is that what you believe? I’m sure you’ve picked the contradiction by now – imperfect men cannot run a perfect organisation. If the organisation is perfect then the human mistakes would be God’s. Does this make sense? When men run ahead of God and attempts to build a prophecy “house” and we see that God is not its builder, what then?
One final thing: Do you think this is a good standard of loyalty:
‘”One district overseer, picking up a green book, explained the new policy of conformity to an assembly of Elders this way: “If the Society told me that this book is black instead of green, I would say, ‘Y’know I could have sworn it was green, but if the Society says it’s black then it’s black!’”?
Psalm 127:1
Psalm 146:3,4
Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz
“For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.” 2 Peter 2:21
Skyrainbow, the fact remains…you’re still coming back.
Would you quote the same verse to someone who left the faith of one of the churches. Of course you would not. In fact you would say the opposite like ‘it is really good you have left that faith.’ What a hypocrite. They have left your religion so they must be in the wrong. lol
Alan, Peter speaks about people who left a religion on “the path of righteousness”!
JA, I see, you are not so happy I am still coming back. Because I am exposing the lies and “counterfeit words” of apostates?
2 Peter 2:3
Sky there is no point just saying that. You have to back it up with proof positive that you are being told lies. For my part you will find everything that I say can be backed up by checking the societies own publications. If you don’t agree give us all a list of all the things we have lied about. I will wait eagily to see what you come up with.
I am well aware of what Peter said Sky. But most religions think they are righteous. But you can hardly say that JWs are on the path to righteousness. They have just lost a massive child sex abuse case that could cost them millions. Other times they have settled out of court because they were so afraid of losing the cases. The governing body have a 100% failure rate when speaking about the future. In the past they have advised against getting married, having kids, no transplants, no vaccinations, no further education. They have told their followers to not worry about putting money aside for a pension. They encouraged witnesses to sell their houses, then when their words came to nothing, it was too late for many witnesses, they had blown everything.
Is that your idea of being righteous. I think you will find it is completely the opposite.
And remember, Skyrainbow, even the Devil can quote scripture.
Frank 2
Skyrainbow, do you see the GB of JW applying this scripture, is it not a fact that they have not put the interests of abuse victims ahead of protecting the image of the organization.
James 1: 27 For, what our God and Father views as clean, pure worship is this: [providing aid] for orphans and widows when they’re in need and keeping ourselves free from the stains of this system of things.
I would like to ask too:
(1) The GB has arguably the same power or more power than the 1st century apostles, right?
(2) When one member dies another replaces him, right?
(3) Jehovah’s Witnesses are obliged not to believe in ‘apostolic succession,’ right?
Isn’t this apostolic succession?
Skyrainbow, it is not your job to expose the lies and “counterfeit words” of these so called apostates. If you learn anything in the Kingdom Hall, you will clearly know that you should leave that job to Jehovah so you will not run the risk of getting ‘infected’ from this ‘disease’.
‘That disease’ being the advice to check yourself whether you are being told the truth at the kingdom hall
Ex witnesses who post here post for a reason. That is to help individuals hear the other side. At the kingdom Hall you will never be told about anything controversial and yet it may well be all over the internet for individuals to check for themselves. Nobody is saying you must listen to ex witnesses. What is being said is to research and check things yourself, which is exactly what the bible tells you to do. The Bereons are a good example. Get your head out of the ground and use the brain that God gave you.
Apostates know that Adolf Hitler’s Propaganda Minister in Nazi Germany, Joseph Goebbels said: “If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth”
Skyrainbow, have you ever heard of “theocratic war strategy”? The WTS practices this as an official policy. Read about this from President Fred Franz’s own public talk in his own words at:
http://thegoverningbody.org/jehovahs-witnesses-watchtower-theocratic-warfare/
In times of human warfare this is called Plausible Deniability. Both methods involved lies told to those who are perceived enemies.
(If you want to hear the actual recording, the hyperlink is in the transcript)
Frank 2
Sky again you are talking about lies, but you have not listed them yet. Is it you that are lying to try and make ex witnesses look bad. We need you to tell us what lies we have told.
The Watchtower has lied constantly to its members over the last 130 years. They have constantly said the end is nigh, and people have believed them. You may not call it a lie, but they had no authority at all to tell peole the end is upon us regularly over the last 130 years, when it clearly has not been. What you said about Hitler most certainly applies to the Watchtower organisation, as many of us have learnt to our cost.
Do you have eternal life now, skyrainbow? 1 John 5:11-13
No she gotta keep knocking on all those empty doors for a few more years, then she may qualify lol
Spanish bro, you raise a very interesting (and important) question. It is definitely worthy of an article. In brief, it also raises the question of how the WT Society interprets scripture to suit its own purposes. Look at Revelation 11:7 “And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ASCENDS OUT OF THE ABYSS will make war with them . . . “
Now the interesting thing. If you check the WT Society’s cross referencing, and interpretation, you will find that they match this wild beast with the one seen in chapter 13:1 – “the wild beast that ascends OUT OF THE SEA”. And, perhaps, you may wonder – how did they arrive at this interpretation?
Setting this aside for the moment, if you just read just a bit further, in chapter 17:8 you will meet “the wild beast that is about to ASCEND OUT OF THE ABYSS”.
So, naturally, you ask yourself, surely THIS is the same wild beast as in Chapter 11:7? And indeed, many independent commentators agree with you.
HOWEVER, this plain and simple, natural understanding brings down the WT Society’s house of cards.
Here’s why: Way, way back, they decided that Revelation chapter 11 was fulfilled during that period 1916 – 1919. They were the TWO WITNESSES, the imprisonment of Rutherford & associates was represented by the “killing” of those two witnesses, and their release in 1919 matched the resurrection and elevation of the two witnesses.
BUT they had a problem. Who was the WILD BEAST FROM THE ABYSS? According to the actual events, it was the American Government, who put them in jail for breaking the law. (but that’s another story, and an interesting insight on how Rutherford always looked for confrontation, mainly for the surrounding publicity). So, to return to the question: who is the best from the abyss, they decided that America represented the 7th head of the Wild beast from the Sea, (chapter 13:1) and ever since they have adjusted their cross referencing / interpretation to match.
However, events took an unexpected turn. Later on, they decided (new light) that the wild beast from the ABYSS in chapter 17:8 represents the League of Nations / United Nations.
So they have a problem. They cannot reconcile this with their earlier interpretation of Chapter 11.
Because the League of Nations / United Nations DID NOT EXIST IN 1919.
Now the crux: if they are mistaken about the Wild beast in Rev. 11:7, then their entire end time interpretation of this chapter falls to pieces. It would mean, for example, that the events of Revelation 11 are still FUTURE (again, an understanding that various commentators agree with).
It would also mean that the two witnesses are yet to be identified, and the “3 and a half day” preaching work of those two witnesses is yet to happen. (various commentators again agree).
Most tellingly, this would mean that Rutherford & Associates / WT Society have not received any token of approval. Which destroys their retroactive claim that they alone were appointed as “the faithful slave” in 1919.
Space / time doesn’t permit, but you may have noticed the Revelation 11:7 says that they are killed “when they have FINISHED their witnessing. Again, this raises many questions about the WT Society’s interpretation. In 1919, according to their own accounts, they had barely started.
Interesting, isn’t it? I picked this up while doing bible verse chain reference research on the word ABYSS. And one’s immediate question is – why does their chain break down, and skip the scripture in chapter 17:8? Is this another case of twisting the evidence to suit their needs? Time will tell.
All good points Frank, but the truth is that as every day goes by more and more holes are found in all the societies doctrines. The gov body simply make guesses at things and try to pass it off as fact. JWs do actually worship the governing body. This can be seen whenever a change comes in, the witnesses will change their own view immediately to that of the governing body. They are so in awe of it that many never check themselves to see if what they are being told is correct. However other witnesses are checking and are realizing the many doctrinal failures of the org and end up leaving the JW org. In todays enlightened world and especially now that checking something is so easy with the internet, the org will find that, yes they still bring vulnerable people in, but they are also losing many witnesses who are now checking things themselves. That is why the baptism questions these days include working with and agreeing with the org. If someone no longer believes a certain doctrine and tells others their views, they have in fact said they are no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. So they org announce that, and the sheep accept it and shun that person for the rest of their lives, simply because they questioned a particular doctrine. It does not even matter if they are proved right in their questioning, they went against the mighty gov body so they deserve to be kicked out.
This is one sick organistion, and it deserves to go down big time and I am sure that will continue to happen over the next few years.
Cedars this “new light” will cause many to think why it took so long to see the light of day. The Faithful and Discreet Slave has always been made up of all Christs Anointed ones, chosen by God to be of the heavenly calling. This has been taught for decades and decades.
This brings to mind Jesus words at John 10:16. “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
The next announcement could be the Jews and the Gentiles are what make up the one flock.
Anything is possable now. As more and more JW doctrines and ideas are proved wrong, they scratch arround for answers. They have none. They just lurch from one lie to another.
Cedars over the years I thought that the Governing Body gathered grass root information from Circuit, District and Zone servant reports after visiting circuits, districts and zones. This information was then referred to the Faithful and Discreet Slave to act on. In order to consult together as to what spiritual food would best help these circuits, districts and zones. My understanding, it was the Governing Bodies job to consult the Anointed, the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Made up of all members of the anointed. When it became clear this was not being done.
The teaching of the Faithful and Discreet Slave became vague, like looking at something through blurred glasses.
Now this “new light” makes it more blurred because of what Proverbs 15: 22 says…”There is a frustrating of plans where there is no confidential talk, but in the multitude of counselors there is accomplishment.”
What it appears has happened, the multitude of Christs brothers, [ the anointed] were never consulted.
1 Corinthians 14:8-9…. “For truly, if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? In the same way also, unless you through the tongue utter speech easily understood, how will it be known what is being spoken? You will in fact, be speaking into the air.”
This teaching of the Faithful and Discreet Slave has not been understandable from a scriptural viewpoint, past and present, like the Watchtowers teaching of the resurrection.
When leaders can not explain teachings correct the first time, they lose credibility.
Hey Willows you and Cedars will have to open up some new BRANCHES (not a very good tree joke lol)
Seriously though what has been obvious to most ex witnesses for years is now admitted by the gov body, namely that they do not consult the other supposed members of the anointed around the earth about anything spiritual. In fact many in the writing department do not even profess to be of that calling, and yet they write the articles with the gov body members just signing that they have seen it and approved it.
According to Ray Franz providing a majority approve of the article it goes into print and becomes part of JW law.
So much is being discussed online about this religion, they are having to come clean about all sorts of things they would much rather keep quiet about. In todays imformation age everything they say gets scrutanised and exposed if it is not true. Don’t you just love it?
Frank, if I have the choice between the strategy of a war criminal (repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth, as apostates do) and the strategy of a devote servant of Jehovah, I’ll know what to choose.
Sky you are making a fool of yourself now. You have been asked several times to list the lies that are being told on here, and so far we have had nothing from you. Everything thet ex witnesses say can be backed up with proof. Why can you not do the same?
Hi Willows – good post.
You know, this idea (that Brooklyn were in contact with the Anointed, and consulted on important issues) was no “urban myth”. I got this “straight from the horse’s” mouth from various well placed people, back in the 60s and early 70s. Back then, you could even meet circuit overseers and missionaries who partook. I know of one Anointed brother who was in contact with Brooklyn. Can’t say whether this was formal or informal. He invariably received ‘advance’ copies of new publications. Most certainly do know he did not see a pre-publication draft of the Revelation Climax 1st release, as he discussed several “grey areas” with me. One thing I can say with certainty – there was a huge fight over ‘controlling” him toward the end of his life. Almost as if certain people wanted to “own” him. Maybe the less said the better, but it was a time of great heartache to good people who had loved and cared for him for many years, as they were shunted aside. It’s not difficult to spot the Watchtowerites – they beat up the people trying to be real Christians.
But, to return to the topic. After the 1975 debacle, the anointed became more and more “invisible” as attention shifted to the GB. The memorial arrangements became more ritualistic, eliciting puzzlement from most new interest who went along to “observe”.
So – either I was being fed stories, and there never was any real communication between the anointed and Brooklyn, or, Brooklyn has decided it no longer needs them. And they face the anomaly of increasing numbers of partakers, so they don’t quite know who is the ”real McCoy”.
Some interesting analogies – Athaliah usurping power to become Judah’s only reigning queen, and the account in Esther, where Haman plots to do away with “all the Jews”. Time will tell. Right now, when one considers how many times the WT Society has pushed ahead with ill-founded predictions, Samuel’s words to Saul clearly apply: “pushing ahead, and presumptuousness, is the same as divination”.
Think about this. I have never yet met any so-called “apostate” who has “pushed ahead”, made predictions of his own, or set himself up in opposition to the WT Society. The majority (and Ray Franz is a good example) simply left because they could no longer stand what was being done “in God’s Name”.
It’s interesting, Skyrainbow, that you talk about Hitler’s lies. How do you define ‘lies’?
Encart Online Dictionary calls a lie:”to say something that is not true in a conscious effort to deceive somebody.”
Would you accept the word of a scientist, Skyrainbow?
“If you ask what actually motivates my atheism, for example, to come on to a Christian show like this, I think it was my encounter with the Jehovah’s Witnesses because they produced a book called Life – How did it get here, by Creation or Evolution, which contains a huge pack of falsehoods. I mean, I’m sure that the people distributing that book, I suspect many of them are very sincere; they sincerely believe what’s written in that book. But if you look at the things in that book and trace it back and look at what the original scientists actually said, you can see the book misquotes them terribly. So, the knowledge that religion, or some religious people, were actively distorting what scientists believe, it led me to see a lot of religious people as being victims of that propaganda, and that’s one thing that really kind of motivates me.”
- Atheist scientist Robert Stovold – “The Big Questions in Science and Religion,” Unbelievable, July, 2008
If you want to hear the interview between Keith Ward (theistic evolutionist) and Stovold, go to Unbelievable (Premier Christian Radio) and find it. Alternatively iTunes will have it under podcasts. If requested, I’ll supply the site.
If you want to hear more about the Society’s methodology, go to:
http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/notes-on-francis-hitching-and.html
This is the tip of the iceberg.
Oh, and by the way, it ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t publish the book, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did.
Allan you mentioned Ray Franz. My impression of this man, an honest and open mind, not afraid to say things as they are.
Respectful, giving credit where it was due. And exposing wrong teachings that troubled him. In a way that showed a balanced mind. He has peace now, he let his conscious be his guide. Cedars mentioned Olin Moyle, another man who was not afraid to say things as they are, an interesting read.
New to the site but very interesting indeed
If anyone is interested…the WT&BT$ just released their updated information regarding the ‘Governing body’ on their official website, under the heading ‘news’ then the subheading of ‘events’ then click on annual meeting
So it is true what has been reported on this blog, that the organisation are now saying that FADS were appointed in 1919, when Jesus chose them out of all the others who claimed they were the true religion.
As ‘Upset at Watchtower’ has just stated above the ‘new light’ is now on the societies website.
They can now say that Charles Russell was not a member of the FADS. In other words God’s spirit was not working through this man, which is why he made so many mistakes.
Since the internet age it has been easy to see the things that Charles Russell taught. Ex witnesses have been saying for ages that Russell would be disfellowshipped several times over for all the false thing he claimed were from God.
So now the gov body have only to defend Rutherford. In one foul swoop they can dismiss a lot of their early false doctrines.
By doing this they hope they can deflect all the bad comments about their early history.
Unfortunately for them, the last 93 years has equally been filled with wrong thoughts, conclusions and guesses.
All they have done is limit the damage the past has had for them.
This is a further reinforcement of the 1919 date and claim to divine appointment as the only religious organization representing God and Christ with no FDS before then. If the 1919 date is not sustainable then the authority of the now 8 members of the FDS to interpret scripture and direct 7 million JW’s is brought into question. Don Cameron in Captives of a Concept shows conclusively the 1919 claim to be a myth, but if a claim is repeated often enough for long enough it becomes an accepted truth to JW’s even though in reality it is untrue. Check out Cameron’s Captives of a Concept web site, if you are a JW reading this will you have the courage to read this book? If you do so it may help you towards developing a relationship with and truly accepting Christ as your saviour for he is “the way, the truth and the life” John 14:6. He is the mediator with God, there is no need for a controlling governing body.
I’m reading the book “Witness” by Whittaker Chambers about the Communist infiltration in the US State Dept, etc in the 1930′s, and Chambers was a Communist who became a Chrisitan and testified before a committee on UnAmerican Activities about this. His book would constantly remind me of the brain washing tactics used by JW’s! Communists know how this works. And so does anyone who wants to control people, whether it is in politics, religion or education. They all do this. I highly recommend this book to read as it is excellent for any JW or ex JW and shows hope dispite all we have gone through. The larger question though, is, this: It is not enough to know what is error. We also must know truth. Otherwise we are never moving out of anger and despair to hope and trust in Christ. Christ had nothing to do with JW’s beliefs. He is ‘the way, the truh and the life’ -John 14:6 True recovery and healing are to be found in Jesus Christ as our Lord, God and Saviour.
Reading all the comments here reminds me of the dog that bites the masters hand that has always fed him.
I never understood why JWs need de-programming until recently. You are the perfect case-in-point, Skyrainbow. Better watch the thought-police don’t find out about your curiosity on this site.
Skyrainbow: Do you pray for us?
If the master was feeding him poison he deserves to be bitten, don’t you think?
Ernest, I pray for sincere persons who are deceived by the lobby of apostates.
Hi Skyrainbow,
Your empty platitudes are starting to sound really tired now. Although I feel sorry for ex-JW’s, at least they are honest enough to admit and deal with their problems, whereas you and many other JW’s will probably live in denial for the rest of their lives. After going on many, many websites I’ve noticed that die-hard JW’s like you often call themselves sugar-coated names: “Happy in the Truth”, “Smiling JW”, and my personal favourite: “Sunshine”. Ironically, it’s interesting that the names they’ve chosen are similar to yours Skyrainbow, but never quite fit their behaviour and attitude towards others… overcompensating for something perhaps?
Hi Ernest,
You make some very interesting points there. I’ve often wondered if the Watchtower’s/JW’s use of indoctrination techniques and other high control methods, as well as an intolerance for others, is why they have so much trouble in Russia and other communist/ex-communist countries. Although Russia is largely a lot more democratic now they probably can’t fully escape their communist past, so if anyone recognises the high-control techniques the WTS uses, then it’ll be the Russians, as they used these control methods on their people in the past.
Yes DB, we are very happy, with a positive attitude, always smiling and with appreciation for the sunshine. You know why? You find the answer in Psalms 149:5: “Let the LOYAL ONES exult in glory; Let them cry out joyfully on their beds”. What a difference with the desperate, rancorous, frustrated disloyal apostates.
Tut tut, Skyrainbow, Is name-calling one of your Christian values?
Tell me, my friend, for a group of men who openly oblige their adherents to teach their children that they will be emotionally and spiritually damaged if they own a plastic effigy of a wizard and then equally openly oblige their elders to maintain secrecy of confessed criminal activity (paedophilia) in the congregation, thus making them accessories to the crime; do you think it proper that we should look up to such people for our ethical and moral standards?
If you are parent, would you be prepared to show that quality of ‘loyalty’ and risk the future of your children?
Frank 2
The religious leaders during Christs earthly ministry viewed him as an apostate. This action did not sway Jesus from speaking the truth. Being loyal and true to his Heavenly Father and his Word was more important to Jesus. He did not subjugate himself to these men. Nor condone their wrong attitude and teaching. Jesus not only knew the law he showed the spirit of the law.
When an organization prints books with wrong teachings, and people leave that organization, they can be called apostates of the organization. They are not apostates of Jehovah, or his Word. Jehovah is not partial. Condoning wrong teaching is apostasy.
What an organization has printed in black and white is evidence
of apostasy. How they can call others apostate is amusing.
Why did you leave Jehovah’s people? Not because of all the fallacies you are mentioning.
John answers: “They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us” 1 John 2:19.
So, a great part of the apostates were disfellowshipped because of their immoral behavior. First they became disloyal towards their partner and next towards Jehovah.
If you are going to quote scripture, try not to copy your false leaders. This scripture is speaking about the anti-christ, which is someone who clearly rejects Jesus and his teachings. Most that leave the organisation have not rejected Jesus, they just no longer believe that JWs are teaching the truth. Big difference.
What surprises me, Skyrainbow, is that you show yourself to be irrational in your thinking. Why? So far you haven’t told us why our thinking is unbiblical or genuinely ‘apostate.’ Do you have any actual arguments or does your dog collar constrict every time you dare have a thought that you could truly call your own?
Pavlov’s dog had the same problem.
Frank 2
1 John 2:19 can be used by “all clergy” regarding people who leave their religion,…… not an argument. What is printed in black and white by a religion over many years is evidence of apostasy. “Not spiritual food.” It may be a surprise to some people but not to others, leaving an organization does not depend on immoral behavior. “Let us keep our minds above the belt.” On the other hand, when the mind is assaulted with misleading, presumptuous, interpretation of Jehovah’s Word over many years, this is what causes many to leave. And justly so, they can not condone false teachers. The poor people who were mislead over many years because of what was printed, brings no praise to Jehovah’s name.
The man who is telling 90-year old stories about Rutherford and shouting FOCUS ON RUTHERFORD is now asking me if I have any actual arguments! Stay serious Frank.
And I prefer to be Pavlov’s dog and not the dog described in 2 Peter 2:22.
Skyrainbow: Do you HAVE eternal life now? 1 John 5:11-13. How can we lose life that is eternal? It is a present possesion that can never be taken from us. Romans 8:37-39
Skyrainbow. I have no idea what you’re talking about. I gave an example of what the modern ‘F&DS’ is claiming are fully consistent teachings re: wizards and sexual crimes against the children of JWs.
You must be confusing ‘Franks.’
Frank 2
PS: Actually, Rutherford’s ghost still walks the halls of Bethel, don’t worry. Fundamentalism is a tough stain to remove.
Skyrainbow, do you have children?
By your answering the second baptism question: “Do you agree that you are associated with God’s spirit-directed organization” (now, ‘spirit-anointed,’ and ‘association’) you agreed that, with the unfortunate possibility (based on the increased chances of sex offenders being present inside the congregation) that should your child be assaulted, and if one year AFTER the incident(s) take place, should the policy be reversed, that is, that the WT will fully co-operate with secular law, that YOU and your wife (or other way round as we don’t know your gender) are fully responsible for the damage done to the victim(s) due to the application of human ‘wisdom’for the rest of theirs and your lives?
Did you say, “I do”?
Do the GB ever self-implicate?
Have they ever re-instated individuals who have been disfellowshipped for teachings or policies that have changed or reversed since the decision on that individual?
If a prisoner in the docks of a courtroom told the judge or jury that, even though they murdered the victim, since then they’ve received ‘more light,’ do you think that would be a good legal argument?
“skyrainbow November 12, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Reading all the comments here reminds me of the dog that bites the masters hand that has always fed him.”
Interesting comment, Skyrainbow! By ‘master,’ who do you mean?
2 Corinthians 1:24
Skyrainbow – you claim that your group (Watchtower Society) are the only true religion, right?
Well, good ol’ Judge Rutherford said one thing that has proven absolutely true:
“RELIGION IS A SNARE AND A RACKET”
Notice something – He left out the word “false”. And that’s what makes his statement so powerful. You people all want to belong to a religion. And fight about “who is right”. Not realizing that you’re ALL wrong, one way or another. So, without realizing it, Rutherford included his own religion – the Watch Tower Society.
Which places your present Governing Body in a really difficult position – their claim to appointment is based on his claim that he was appointed in 1919.
As Jesus Christ would say – your own mouths said it
Frank, I can assure you, my children have been always very safe in the Christian congregation of J.W. In our circuit I know only one congregation with a paedophilia case. The elders informed the authorities, he was disfelloshipped and is now active in a group of apostates. You can be sure, in proportion, apostate groups have more paedophiles than J.W. So, Frank, some modesty
would be to your credit.
That is a pretty sick thing to say. Ex witnesses (who you call apostates) are just as sickened by paedophiles as the average JW. But there is no doubt than any organisation that will only only act if there are two witnesses are going to attract that sort of person. Most ex witnesses are people who can no longer go along with all the lies, guesses and false satements the gov body make, not because they fancy young kids.
Thanks, Skyrainbow, for confirming that it is not just apostates who are ‘mentally-diseased’ (The Watchtower, July 15, p.16) You remind me of Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, who had the target of his writings believe that Jews spread diseases, all had large hook-noses, and were single-handedly destroying the German economy.
Actually, Skyrainbow (what a pretty name), you also confirm what I now believe, that organised religion merely institutionalises a person’s existing prejudices. It’s obvious you hate ‘apostates,’ but what about gays and women? Do you keep a white hood in your bottom draw to bring out on special occasions?
Another myth is that homosexuals are usually child molesters. Actually by far it’s heterosexuals. Why? Like rape, child sexual assaults are a crime of power and opportunity.
Once I raised the ire of another of your ilk when I used Bill Bowen’s term ‘paedo-paradise’ when up against his blinkered view of the WT’s policy. He called ME a ‘lying propagandist.’ I provided him with sites such as http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=35566. Fugitive Fredrick Cecil McLean has an interesting back-story you can read on Silent Lambs about his WT career and how he was able to move from place to place under the present (the then policy). This blogger reckoned the site was a propaganda fake; to which I explained America’s Most Wanted is not an ‘apostate’ site. To date he hasn’t relented.
Are you like that, Skyrainbow, or have you just changed your name?
Unlike you, when Bowen and I use the term, it is NOT to suggest that the WT has any higher statistic of paedophile, it describes the ease of movement within a crowd under such a policy. The latest deliberation of the GB has changed nothing; it’s just shifted the deckchairs on the Titanic.
Frank 2
I never really realized how pathetically sad, bitter and frustratedly angry the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses were in a manifested way until I came to this Blog…Trust me! I saw it and experienced the losses from the vengeance of the wrath in many ways over 30 years and even virtually with hands laid upon me many times but never with a side by side comparison before and the frilly, happy sunshiny name syndrome is intriguing! This is a rare and unique opportunity…like prisoner to the paroled so to speak? I don’t know if that’s the best analogy off the top of my head…
KtotheRAD, Your words are intriguing. I don’t understand a single one of them. Would you care to explain.
Thanks
Frank 2
Frank, I have post secondary education, an IQ not far below 200 am bilingual and spent most of my adult life working in and around clinical and Human Services fields so I don’t know why you are having an issue, I’m sorry for your cognitive distortions but I will do my best to assist.
“I never really realized how pathetically sad, bitter and frustratedly angry the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses were in a manifested way until I came to this Blog” ~ I’m not entirely sure what you don’t comprehend here but I likely would have been better advised to use ‘comparative’ rather than manifested since I really have. That was my key word error and I apologize for that.
“Trust me! I saw it and experienced the losses from the vengeance of the wrath in many ways over 30 years and even virtually with hands laid upon me many times…” ~ I was made homeless repeatedly, lost all of my property (Cash value alone I estimated to the Society in the hundreds of thousands) and vehicles, jobs and was slandered, disciplined and relationships sabotaged so that I was never permitted to have a wife or family, physically assaulted innumerably and crimes and schemes perpetrated against me. All with the full knowledge and documented oversight of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I could go on about the deaths and violence and child abuse against others
“and the frilly, happy sunshiny name syndrome is intriguing!” ~ The apparent need for JWs to do this as if they are self deluding has not gone unnoticed before and is in fact intriguing…
“This is a rare and unique opportunity…like prisoner to the paroled so to speak? I don’t know if that’s the best analogy off the top of my head…” Needs no explanation (I hope?) and I am rather offended and somewhat perturbed at having to do this since it is degrading and a could be perceived as a public humiliation. (if someone were to allow it to be but fortunately I’m all but impossible and impervious anymore to humiliation ) as well as unnecessary so I won’t be returning to this forum.
Tschüss!
Konrad, I don’t wish to be disrespectful, but your comment to me, someone with no post-secondary education, is like binary code. Obviously, the fault is mine (I am nothing like your IQ), as I am having trouble deciphering it. I am VERY interested in what you have to say and would really appreciate it if you paragraphed, punctuated, and were less oblique in your writing.
Perhaps a little history about this blog would be good too. Is there something in particular you have an issue regarding my comments?
I appreciate your effort so much. Don’t be discouraged as I am looking forward to understanding what you’re telling me.
Thanks again,
Frank 2
Frank (1), Rutherford’s legacy to JWs today (among other things) is the gift of martyrdom. This forward, strategic, and ambitious man, had the foresight to write and have drawn a number of insulting religious and political cartoons about his anti-religious, some probably even read by Hitler (particularly anti-Catholic feelings). This worked well, as it got him imprisoned, released, and exonerated (apparently “exonerated” was Rutherford’s claim as there is no such thing as legal exoneration – NB. There is far more to the story as can be gleaned from the 1918 court transcripts). He then set about declaring his and his fellow ‘slaves” acts as fulfilling prophecies in the Bible book of Revelation.
Even though Skyrainbow, a devoted follower, is perfectly aware that if he/she genuinely accepted the teachings of the GB, he/she would have shunned those he thought of as apostates; he/she has returned over and over again to accuse, insult, and degrade people he doesn’t even know. I call this Martyr’s Syndrome, as I perceive Skyrainbow (such a pretty name) as imagining this, not as an information forum, but rather a burning pyre with him/her at the centre.
Of course, Skyrainbow will get roasted, but only in a way that entertains us, his fans and critics. Obviously, Sky doesn’t feel alive unless it is perceived that whipping and scourging is taking place.
Dear skyrainbow
You are an amazing person. For some weeks now you have been posting messages on this site.
Not once do you offer one word of encouragement, comfort or help. Instead, you use words to break us down.
How different from Jesus Christ. He came to bind up the broken-hearted, to give a release to the prisoners, to heal. This is why he was beloved by the “outcasts” of that self-righteous Jewish society. Sure – the Jews had a great Temple, the Law of Moses, and were obsessed with their claim they were the ‘chosen ones’. And yet – they had zero understanding, or compassion, or humanity. In his parable Jesus describes them as “walking past on the opposite side of the road” rather than help people in need, as “binding up heavy loads, but not lifting one finger to help”.
Anyone with the least amount of common humanity or empathy would understand that most of the people visiting this site are “lost sheep”. And not only lost – many are hurt, grieving, injured, and spiritually sick.
How did we end up in this situation? Well, at some point in the past we got involved with the Watchtower Society (who profess to call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses). They promised to help us. They promised to teach us “the Truth.” We gave them our attention, our time, our financial support – our whole lives.
What they actually gave us was teachings of men, private interpretations, cunning contrivances. They abused our trust. With smiling faces they spoke swelling things of no benefit. They exalted themselves. They interfered in our private business. They caused dissentions in families, and separations. In some cases our wives and children were molested, or worse. In other cases, we were threatened, or physically assaulted. Who did these things? Men they appointed. Why are they equally guilty? Because they refused to take action, they covered things over. By so doing, they became “a sharer in the sin.”
Then, seeing we had nothing left they could take – they lost interest in us. And as the final injury they use people like you to slander us. So – we are brokenhearted at all the failed promises they made, sick of their lies, grieving at the damage done to our faith. You see, despite everything – we still want to love God. We still put our faith in Jesus. But you people make it so difficult for us. Truly, you shut the doors of the Kingdom of Heaven in our faces.
So here is a warning to you, and all like you. Jesus Christ said “whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial to have a millstone hung round his neck and be sunk in the sea.”
He also said “the true shepherd looks for the lost sheep”, and the true neighbour shows mercy. Why not do what he says? Instead of breaking us down with words, wasting time condemning us – why not offer some help? Give some comfort to those who are sick, injured, weary, brokenhearted.
On the other hand – if you have nothing positive to offer, no help, no comfort – then KINDLY LEAVE US IN PEACE. As Jesus said to the self-righteous: “go away, and learn this lesson – God wants mercy, not sacrifice.”
Yours sincerely, Frank
It is obvious what is happening here. Skyrainbow, he or she, with a name like that, more likely to be a she, needs to be told. By…BY. She likes to throw a spanner in the wheel, to drag red herrings over the path, to change the direction of the comments…… Away from Cedars original research and information. Now who would wont that to happen. Just tell her By BY, and we will see her over the great divide when Jesus returns to separate the sheep from the goats. Lets hope she is not put in with the goats.
Frank and Willows, what Skyrainbow is is the shell left when her spiritual solidity is gone. I think she’s searching and that’s why she keeps coming back. She must be encouraged to talk and it’s the job of spiritually-well to help get her brain and reasoning working again.
Frank 2
Skyrainbow- I quote from WT 5/15 2012, p26: “Let us therefore have nothing to do with apostates or anyone who claims to be a brother but who is dishonoring God. This should be the case even if he is a family member. We are not benefited by trying to refute the arguments of apostates or those who are critical of Jehovah’s organization. In fact, it is spiritually dangerous and improper to peruse their information, whether it appears in written form or it is found on the internet.”
If you really believe this Skyrainbow, stop visiting this and other similar sites and confess to your elders what you have been doing and be ‘readjusted’. However, that is not what I recommend. I agree with Frank 2. Please stay and start making constructive comments and you may even want to tell us some of the things that are obviously bugging you.
By the way, I am ‘active’ JW, going to meetings, out in the ministry- but it’s all for show. I am trying to figure out a way of exiting the org without being DF’d or resigning- the damage that would do to my family with the WT shunning policy would be catastrophic.
Regards, Jimmy
Hi Jimmy, I was in your position a few years ago. All my friends and close family were JWs. I managed to fade away, by just gradually doing less and less. Obviously you will get asked if everything is ok, and really all you have to say is that you have some personal problems at the moment. Providing you do not come right out and say all the things you disagree with, there is nothing the elders can do. As far as everyone is concerned you are just spiritually sick. That is fine, they can think what they want. You know the real reason why you are fading.
Well gradually become inactive (Fade) and avoid any confrontations with the elders when they start chasing you up regarding your reduced activity. Eventually you become totally inactive including not attending meetings. Many in the congregation will not want to soicialise with you but your family and relatives in the organisation should do.
Hello alan. People in the cong don’t ask me but ask my wife “how’s jimmy’, ‘how are things at home’ or ‘is everything ok’ etc. One or two talk to me, have a funny look on their face and I can tell they just want to ask me ‘what’s going on?’, but they don’t. One elder thinks I have something against him, but didn’t approach me, but asked my wife if he could come and talk to me at home. I’m still waiting…… Actually I stepped down as an elder nearly 2 years ago and this particular elder has hardly said a word to me since.
Does not surprise me, that people don’t ask you directly what the problem is. Do you want the elder to come around? I thought you wanted to fade quietly. If the elder comes round, you will find it very hard not to say why you are doing less now. Remember in your baptism vow you agreed to go along with the organisation and their doctrines. If you show him you are no longer willing to do that, you are in effect disassoiating yourself from the organisation. If you do not want that, I suggest you do not have the elder round. He will probably want to bring another elder round as well. Immediately you show signs of rebellion you are a targate for disfellowshipping.
I was a mini servant and a reg pioneer, but was able to gradually fade. Not easy, but so worth it.
After reading the last comments I am more and more convinced, apostates are real losers. They lost their faith, the truth, loving brothers and sisters and Jehovah’s approval. Yes, they need encouragement, comfort and help but they must first realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment.
I do not hate apostates but I hate their new goal in life, bashing Jehovah’s Witnesses, their former brothers and sisters. I hate their ungratefulness. They forget how much they know thanks to the devote brothers of the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Even now they are using their sites and publications.
They do not realize they fell in “the trap of the birdcatcher” (Psalm 91:3) “who is misleading the entire inhabited earth”
Revelation 12:9.
Sky I have lost track of the times I and others have said to you to tell us all the lies that we are supposedly spouting. As you have not been able to do that, you are regarded now as just hot air.
So last chance, tell us all what ex witnesses have said on this forum that are outright lies.
You are right about us using the societies publications. That is the only way to get through to most JWs. You and others have been shown how the society change something the moment it is proved wrong. This happens over and over again. The latest is because of the internet, many people can now see that most of what Charles Russell said was absolute rubbish. So what do the society do about it? They say actually, he was not a member of the FADS or any governing body. He was not presenting food at the p[roper time at all.
It happened with the generation teaching. They kept changing it and changing it until they could change it no more.
They changed the date of 1935 as that became obvious to all that it was a made up date.
It is JWs who are the losers. They believe every lie and guess the society make, until the society have to change it. You are the one who is not able to do independant research without the Watchtower’s publications. That makes you and other JWs very much the losers.
I just realized Sky, you were probabbly writing about Jimmy’s problem with leaving the organisation.
Practically any other organisation in the world, are quite ok with you walking away from it and telling others why you left. As a JW you cannot do that. The moment the elders realize you are telling people about the societies failings, you are a target for being disfellowshipped. And as you know that means no contact with family and friends ever again. Even close family members who sd not live in the house with you will shun you for the rest of your life. Is it any wander that people find it so hard to leave.
Skyrainbow,
You really need to think about what you are doing. It certainly appears that you need help.
Don’t you realize that your Organization will disfellowship you if one of it’s members finds out that you are spending all this time on what they call an ‘apostate website’ ?
The whole situation is totally ironic. We – the so-called apostates – are trying to help you be obedient to your Organization.
And do you know why? Because if you get disfellowshipped for ‘associating with apostates’ you will lose everything you claim to value – the love of the congregation, your family, your friends – everything. And you clearly have no idea how much pain that causes a person.
We do. We’ve felt the pain, the hurt, the anguish of being cut off by people we thought we could trust, people we thought were our friends, through thick and thin.
And I don’t think any of us want you to get hurt. So, please do yourself a favour. If you think your Organization is so wonderful – you’d better start living by its rules.
Otherwise – the only friends you will have will be us. Don’t worry – we do our best to follow Jesus. So we will forgive you all the names you called us in your ignorance.
What a great post Frank, and every word is so true. It’ a a kinder version of what I was trying to say to Sky. It is the one thing that most JWs cannot get their head round. That is, that ex witnesses want to help others so they do not fall into the same trap we did. It took some of us decades to see the light. Hopefully others will check things for themselves properly before they commit to this religion.
If someone does check it out and still wants in, that’s fine, at least they know what they are getting into. Unfortunataly many do not. When I was fading, a very good friend of mine wrote me a letter asking why I was not associating any more. So I told her very politely but honestly. Do you know I never heard from her again, and yet she was supposedly a very close friend. With friends like that, you do not need any enemies. The love JWs show is totally conditional on you agreeing with everything the gov body says.
Frank, thank you for ‘trying to help me to be obedient’. I can’t control my tears.
By berating and judging us and expressing your hatred towards your enemies, who do you think you’re being loyal to, Skyrainbow?
Sky, did you not read and understand the WT article I quoted? The ‘Slave’ is telling you that it is ‘improper’ for you to have any contact with us ‘apostates’. So please leave this ‘dangerous’ website immediately and seek ‘readjustment ‘ through your local elders- or you could take a deep breath and start actually conversing with us, it’s really quite therapeutic.
alan, no I don’t want the elder to ‘visit’. I’m well versed in the Society’s methods, having been an elder myself. He won’t get anything out of me. I was baptised before they changed the 2nd question, so as far as I am concerned, ‘organisation’ is irrelevant’. My ‘fading’ will be slow and strategic. I have something up my sleeve which will rock the BOE in my congregation- I’m just waiting for the right time to present it.
Cedars it is reasonable to think through an announcement that the Faithful and Discreet Slave is a specific group of people. And ask questions about the spiritual food being dispensed. We need to go back to 1919 and examine the written evidence as has been mentioned, to see if it agrees fully with Christ’s teaching.
Prudence demands one to be careful, discreet in what is presented as spiritual food at the right time. Living in 1919 is no different to living in 2012. Christians can not run ahead of Christ and publish information like Studies in the Scriptures. Influencing others and taking them on a wild goose chase spiritually. Then claim to be faithful and discreet.
Allen, you are saying ‘it took some of us decades to see the light’
Decades? Wow, apostates are very intelligent!
But is it really the light you see? Jesus said: “Be alert, therefore. Perhaps the light that is in you is darkness” Luke 11:35.
Skyrainbow: “I do not hate apostates but I hate their new goal in life, bashing Jehovah’s Witnesses, their former brothers and sisters. I hate their ungratefulness…”
Here is one of your principle misapprehensions, Sky. When did any of us ‘bash Jehovah’s Witnesses, their former brothers and sisters’? Don’t you get it, Jehovah’s Witnesses (genuinely and innocently indoctrinated ones) are often the victims, not the perpetrators.
I believe in pretty much all core doctrines that the GB have taught WHERE THEY SHOW CLEAR HARMONY WITH GOD’S WRITTEN WORD.But over the years, many many many doctrines have come forth that show clear harmony only with human thinking.
Here’s an example:
Acts 15:28,29 was once interpreted fundamentally to mean ALL blood products were to be ABSTAINED from, right?
When the GB added the word ‘whole’ to the word ‘blood’ a new philosophical layer was added to the core doctrine. Suddenly ‘abstain’ was broken into, excuse the pun – components.
Tell me, Skyrainbow, do you think that the fact that the GB had to accept inoculations containing blood components in order to travel to other countriesto function as representatives might have had some influence on this sudden ‘new light’?
Now contrast that with the stubbornness (not boldness) in refusing Caesar the authority to do what GOD admonishes Paul through Scripture with regard to protecting the children and young people in their midst.
We know that the WT will ONLY report criminal acts to the secular authorities IF they are SPECIFICALLY required to.
Do you think empowering rank amateurs to solve complex legal, moral, and ethical problems is the godly thing to do?
Do you see my point, Skyrainbow?
The story you report above about alleged child abuse would fail too impress many, if any, on this site based on your record of comments.
Frank 2
Willows: “We need to go back to 1919 and examine the written evidence…”
Try: http://thegoverningbody.org/holy-walls-and-the-winds-of-change-part-1/
Skyrainbow: “Frank, I can assure you, my children have been always very safe in the Christian congregation of J.W. In our circuit I know only one congregation with a paedophilia case.”
Are you sure?
http://www.fearnotlaw.com/articles/article33803.html
There are many fairly intelligent people in the organistion, and many can give the same story is me. Most realize that there is something wrong, but fail to do anything about it. For my part I had a great social life and many apparant ‘friends’. Also all my family were witnesses and there was massive pressure to stay in the org.
When you speak about light, it is the organision that has ‘new light’ not ex witnesses. Often as Jesus said that light can lead to darkness. In other words the new light comes to nothing. That is exactly what happens in the org. They change something, then change it again as soon as it is obvious that the new light was nothing of the sort.
Really pleased to hear that Jimmy. Great that you were baptised before that second question, as was I. You seem to have it well under control. You must let us know how it goes, and what it is you ‘have up your sleeve’ Have fun.
Thanks alan. It’s just ‘Theocratic Warfare’ in reverse. We get to do it to the Org. The worst thing for me is people asking things like- “How did you enjoy the Assembly Day?” or “what did you think of the Assembly Day?” These questions were put to me just last week. The first question contains the expected answer. I can’t be truthful, or I’ll give myself away, so I have to tell little white lies. If you’ve got any suggestions on how to deflect these typical JW questions without arousing suspicions, I’d be grateful. Thanks
I think if I were asked what I thought of the assembly day, I would simply say ‘it was ok, but its stuff we already know really isn’t it.’ I would want to send out the message that I am no longer whole hearted, but would make sure I didn’t slag of the org.
My father in law was a very keen elder, and when he tried to engage me in converstion, I just acted very bored about the whole thing. He soon got the message that I was no longer very keen. That way you are paveing the way for an exit, and it will not be a sudden shock to anyone when you do stop attending etc. They will just say,’yes I saw it coming’.
lol
I have the feeling that everyone wants me to leave this blog.
Why? Do you feel uneasy because I am exposing the arguments, distortions and lies of apostates?
By the way, Alan, is Frank’s statement that de ‘organisation will disfellowship me if one of its members find out that I am spending all this time… on this website’ not another lie?
No way do we want you to leave. It is good for you to see why others have left the organisation.
I will give you a challenge. Go to the body of elders (not just the odd one) and tell them that lately you have been spending a lot of time talking to apostates on the internet, and you find it very interesting hearing all the reasons why they left the organisation. They will then answer you with a warning. You then reply saying ‘No it’s fine honestly. I am going to continue posting to them, and will probably tell others in the organisation all the ‘crazy’ things they are saying.’
I guarrantee you will very soon before a juditial committee, telling you if you carry on doing this you will be disfellowshipped.
Try it, I dare you.
You also called this another lie. We haven’t heard from you yet what were the list of lies you feel we have told you.
The only reason you have been warned off this website is because you are cared about and we don’t want you to get in trouble. So by all means stay.
Alan, the problem about your (stupid) challenge is that I am not here to see why others have left Jehovah’s people. The Bible is very clear in telling us why some leave Jehovah and ‘shrink back’. Hebrews 10:38,39.
I am convinced you find here also sincere persons who are deceived by the lobby of apostates and I am trying to help them realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment. The real reason I am here is to expose the lies and ‘counterfeit words’ of rancorous apostates. (2 Peter 2:3) in the hope sincere persons will return to our loving father Jehovah.
Why is it a stupid challenge? I am simply telling you how it is. Presumably you agree with me, otherwise you would have no problem speaking to them.
You say you are here to expose the lies and counterfeit words of ex witnesses, but so far you have done neither have you? You are totally incapable of listing the lies you speak about. Others can see that, which is why no one is leaping to your defence, as you may have noticed.
The bible tells us very clearly to check what we are told is correct. You need to do that, and not just accept every whim and guess the governing body throw at you. I checked, and that is why I am now an ex witness.
Skyrainbow: “I have the feeling that everyone wants me to leave this blog.
Why? Do you feel uneasy because I am exposing the arguments, distortions and lies of apostates?”
I think the people here would like you to explain this comment! What have you exposed? All you’ve done is grizzle, accuse, and insult. We want you to leave because you have no spiritual gift. You’ve got to have an argument before you can ‘expose an argument.’ I’d like to say, “nice try,’ but it wouldn’t be the truth (that’s ‘truth’ with a small T).
Sky- I have not ‘left’ Jehovah, I am still active in the cong. You assume that any Witness that challenges his/her beliefs has ‘left’ Jehovah. Not so, as the comments on this blog testify.
alan- thanks for your suggestions. I think I’m already giving people the impression that I’m bored, so I’m already well on the way to fading.
Hi Jimmy: I was an elder for many years. After I left, the elders in my Kingdom Hall visited me with a circuit overseer.They forgot who they were talking to when they tried to use the WT tactic of blaming the rank and file for believing Armageddon would come in 1975! I actually said:
“Do you know who you are talking to? Please don’t talk to me like I don’t know anything. You are blaming the members for believing what the Society said! This is ridiculous!” They looked puzzled (?!!) This visit was soon after I resigned as an elder in June of 1979. Nothing will change. The leadership is in denial on the past. They always will be until their eyes are opened to believing Jesus Christ by faith alone and not by works.
So JimmyG, you think you have not left Jehovah ‘because you are still active in the congregation’ But you are telling, you are ‘well on the way to fading’. Don’t you think this means you are on the way to leave Jehovah? But do not forget, Jesus himself said: “But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved” Not the losers, as Frank and Alen who stopped serving Jehovah and trying to drag along others on their disastrous road, playing the same old disks, some 90-years old.
So Jimmy, think it over and go directly to Jehovah in prayer and ask Him to help you.
Good point Earnest. This is an age old tactic of the WT. They’re still doing it. A recent study article ‘warned’ the r&f not to let disappointment affect them due to the ‘end’ not coming by now. Where have the r&f expectations come from? From the WT’s publications, which everyone must believe or risk being DF’d. No admission on their part for causing the problem in the first place!
Sky- you do not need to worship Jehovah through a human organisation. Why are you still here? You still haven’t responded to the quote I gave you from the WT. You are breaking the rules and not being obedient to the ‘Slave’. You, like many other defenders of the Org are the ones who resort to childish name calling, your latest being the word ‘losers’. Please start contributing something worthwhile to the discussion or leave. Also ask Jehovah in prayer to help you to stop being abusive to the people on this forum. Jesus exhorted us ‘to love our enemies’.
Skyrainbow: “Don’t you think this means you are on the way to leave Jehovah? But do not forget, Jesus himself said: “But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved” ”
Wow! Rain, you surpass yourself with your ever-increasing ignorance! Do you honestly think Jesus meant ‘enduring’ his Congregation? The most obvious sign to observed in the congregation is love! Remember? It’s Satan’s World that should be endured. If it is ‘God’s’ organisation, what does this tell you?
Sky why do you equate leaving Jehovah’s Witnesses as leaving Jehovah. Many, many ex witnesses still have a strong faith in God and Jesus, it’s just that they know the truth is not found among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Far from being losers they do something about the situation, not just exist in an organistion and believing every thing they are told to believe.
SkyRainbow
why are you associating and commenting with apostates, do you think you are standing?
why is it you sprout of Wt and then disobey what they say, hypocritical don’t you think.
You have hang ups yourself and take it out on others, you obviously have doubts or you would not be here.
You disobey those you hold in so much respect, but disrespect what they say or you yourself would not be here.
Are you yourself active, or is this your only means of witnessing to others that are no longer active JW, wouldn’t your time be best used in obeying your GB and preaching door to door.
As your GB say do not associate with apostates do not have anthing to do with DF ones.
How do you expect anyone reading your post to take you seriously, you are making a mockery of your own faith.
Sadly i think its really all about YOU and your hang ups.
Hope some on here can help you.
Jimmy, do you think you are in a good position to tell me what to do? Who is breaking the rules and is not obedient to the Slave? Who is telling us, he is ‘still active in the organisation’ but is renouncing that same organisation? Do you find such attidude honest and sincere? Who has not the courage to speak about his doubts and problems with the elders? So, Jimmy, be humble and quiet and don’t tell others what to do.
I cannot believe your hypocrisy, Skyrainbow! In the comment directly above this trash you’ve just written you are being exposed as having a double-life!!!
Don’t go on at Jimmy when he is thinking of others even though his own INTEGRITY wants him elsewhere. That’s truly love. What you have is a double-tongue and twisted thoughts. After your last comment I can’t help wonder whether you need to see a psychiatrist.
Certainly you need to confess your sins to the GB’s praetorian guard…the elders, I mean.
Just remember, you’re meeting with those who must confine themselves to a smoky club in the basement in Moscow under Communism!
Frank 2
Thank you Frank 2. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m afraid all of us on this forum are going around in circles with skyrainbow. Her/his pseudonym name conjurs up positive, beautiful images in the mind. Unfortunately in contrast to what the name implies, all her/his comments are venom filled. skyrainbow is typical of many (not all) JWs who allow an organisation to do all their thinking and reasoning for them- an organisation saturated in legalism and intolerance. skyrainbow is merely a reflection of this. WT has taught her well.
Kat, you really believe I am associating with apostates? Exposing them is something else as associating.
Apparently the exposing is very effective. Frank is already losing his self-control and is sending me to a psychiatrist and is talking gibberish about praetorian gards in smoky clubs in the basements in Moscow.
And thanks for the encouragement to preach door to door. But I can assure you I am doing this almost every day. Sorry you have not the courage anymore to obey Jesus commandment “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all nations” Matthew 28:19
Frank, calm down.
The following are five quick and easy ways to regain your calm.
1. Take a walk
2. Take a breath
3. Try progressive muscle relaxation.
4. Take a mental break
5. Refraim your situation (the most important)
The only person losing their self control is skyrainbow, In fact all his/her comments since joining this discussion on Nov 2, have shown anything but self control on his/her part. Here are some examples of skyrainbow’s so called self control from her ‘contributions’ to this subject: Cedars accused of being part of the ‘evil slave’, ‘desperate losers’, ‘rancorous and frustrated apostates’, ‘the dog that bites the master’, ‘real losers’, ‘apostates are very intelligent’ (sarcasm), alan accused of presenting a ‘stupid’ challenge. skyrainbow seems to love the word ‘rancorous’ as it has been used several times. It means ‘deep, bitter hate’. I detect this attitude only in skyrainbow’s comments.
Frank 2- most of us understand your comparison of the Praetorian Guard to the elders etc, but if you must continue dialogue with skyrainbow, write to him/her in plain, easily understood language. From his/her last post, it appears skyrainbow has trouble understanding abstract expressions and ideas.
sky- I’m not ‘trying to tell you what to’, as you put it. I merely point out, that as you are so faithful to the ‘Slave’, the course of action needed is set out in the WT literature, which I have directly quoted from. Whether you obey the ‘Slave’ or not is up to you and your conscience. As far as my still being ‘active’ is concerned, this is only for show. If I only had myself to think about, I would not be ‘active’ by now, but I have to protect those closest to me from the effects of the WT’s shunning doctrine. As far as being honest is concerned, look up ‘Theocratic War Strategy’ on the WT CD-ROM. 2 can play at that game, although I’d rather not.
Hi Jimmy: This is really getting strange. Usually JW’s just stop exchanging replies. Yet, it seems, perhaps, that the Lord is working here. But the main issue is salvation. How are we ‘saved’? And what are we saved from? JW’s usually do not talk or converse with apostates as sky believes us to be. Why skyrainbow does is an exception. I don’t understand it, but I do trust that as long as discussion is going on, it’s a good thing. I don’t believe that JW elders would support this. In fact, they do discourage JW’s from using Facebook and the Internet because of so many exJW groups accessable. Let’s keep praying for skyrainbow’s salvation. After all is said in done, none of us can change anything. Only God can. This is not an intellectual prize fight. Salvation is all God’s work. So, after all is said and done, we continue praying for God to do what only He can do: open the eyes and ears of this person. We once were blind, but now we see, lost but have been found.
Earnest, previously I asked sky why he/she was still here and commenting. Only sky can answer that question. I agree with you, JW elders would not support this and they would not be interested in the semantics of whether sky is ‘associating’ with or ‘exposing’ so called apostates- any contact for JWs with people the WT regards as ‘apostate’ is unacceptable.
Frank November 17, 2012 at 11:29 pm
“The Praetorian Guard (Latin: Praetoriani) was a force of bodyguards used by Roman Emperors.” – Wikipedia.
Do you get it now, Skyrainbow? All you have to do is treat yourself to ACTUAL recordings of judicial committees found here on the Internet. The best example is Glasgow’s Matthew Barrie Case. Start here: http://thegoverningbody.org/matthew-barrie-full-transcript-of-podcast-8showdown-at-the-kingdom-hall/.
All recordings have transcripts that you can follow as you listen. As you become more acquainted with this case and others, you’ll find that by far the emphasis is on loyalty to a human body of people rather than Biblical truth. Obvious, too, is the Theocratic War Strategy (justified lying and other forms of deceit). This is made plain in ethical study of the case on the same site (The Martyring of Matthew Barrie: A Study in Ethics)
It soon becomes obvious that this arrangement is not Biblical – care to challenge that? (This would be a first for you)
This man was clearly set up by an elder who had little more on his mind than to protect his own reputation.
Smoky underground clubs in Moscow should not be too challenging for you. Have you ever read 1984 by George Orwell? I think the GB have.
People like Jimmy are becoming all-to-common as can be shown by comments on other sites. I would trust Jimmy with my life knowing how he expresses his personal integrity and the endurance it takes to be intellectually and spiritually honest. Unlike you he has a conscience that’s still working. He is an example of someone who truly ‘waits on Jehovah’ as we all do, but we will not be silent when it comes to very real harm being done to the innocent by bad theology!
Families are split, hatred is shown to people because of a difference of opinion, and children’s lives are being emotionally and spiritually destroyed because of fundamentalist eisegetics (constructing religious policies for protectionist purposes and then cherry-picking the Scriptures for ‘support’).
Check your Bible, Skyrainbow. Is this the first time this has happened?
Don’t be shy – treat yourself to an actual argument and amaze us all!
Frank 2
Kat, you really believe I am associating with apostates? Exposing them is something else as associating.
Apparently the exposing is very effective. Frank is already losing his self-control and is sending me to a psychiatrist and is talking gibberish about praetorian gards in smoky clubs in the basements in Moscow.
And thanks for the encouragement to preach door to door. But I can assure you I am doing this almost every day. Sorry you have not the courage anymore to obey Jesus commandment “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all nations” Matthew 28:19
________________________________
SkyR, according to your leaders the GB of JW by being here and talking with DF and apostate ones you are indeed associating with them. I personally do not think you are an active JW but a rebel yourself, you disobey your leaders and vitually call them wrong, they are the ones that say this not me, take it up with them if you don’t agree.
The only one you have exposed is yourself.
And what makes you think I don’t go door to door.
Meanwhile dragging the red herrings off the trail, and getting back on subject.
The Anointed, individuals who partake of the emblems at Christ’s memorial each year, have always been identified as a group, to be The Faithful and Discreet Slave. For decades and decades people have been told the Anointed ones are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Christ’s brothers.
It was a former member of the Governing Body Ray Franz, in his Book Crisis of Conscience that revealed this group are not consulted in determining what spiritual food is to be prepared.
This then made the teaching of the Faithful and Discreet Slave obscure to human comprehension. Yet the teaching went on for decades………. at some point in history it was brought into the religious teaching as “new light”.
Now the Governing Body say they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave, current “new light”.
It appears the majority of the Anointed individuals have been removed from the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
It will have the effect on many as though the rug has been pulled from under their feet. Sadly there are less than ten standing on the rug now.
This issue was looked at in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJbgTtpfBb8&feature=youtu.be
It just leaves the old Mythical FDS class as members of “Spititual Israel”.
You know the best bit about all this?
The Watchtower just simply come out with a new understanding, with not a word of apology for teaching the wrong thing for decades. It matters not to them that any change they make to doctrine will completely change peoples lives.
They even to it with life and death situations. JW families have had loved ones die because they believed what they were told by the gov body. Then one day, they simply change something, with not a word about how it affects people’s lives.
I am so, so glad I am no longer a part of this destructive sect.
You’re right…and brother Knorr wasn’t absolutely certain about even the year 1914.
JimmyG, I see apostates are very touchy.
I also can make a list of names and descriptions I got here on this site. But for me this is not a problem. A true Witness of Jehovah is very forgiving.
Just a question, Jimmy. As you are sitting in the Kingdom Hall or talking with brothers and sisters don’t you feel a little bit a hypocrite? Frank calls your attitude ‘truly love’. Romans 12:9 says “Let you love be without hypocrisy”
skyrainbow, your misguided loyalty to the Governing Body and ignorance of Watchtower fallacy were charming to begin with, but I object to you resorting to patronizing comments and name-calling against other visitors. Not all who dare to disagree with the 8 men in Brooklyn consider themselves an “apostate”. Some take serious exception to it. Please quit the immature name-calling or I won’t hesitate to block you from this site for trolling.
I will be coming back to this sight. I don’t view it as an apostate site. What exactly is apostate about this war that is being waged against the anointed brothers of Christ by the GB? I should hope that the fact the number of Memorial partakers is increasing signals a big change ahead in the leadership. Frankly, I’m appalled at all the contradictions, misquotations, misapplications of texts, and insane statements found in the publications.
I meant, what is apostate about information exposing this war against the anointed? The GB is exalting itself too much without a shred of scriptural evidence.
Quite right Mandelay. I try to make sure all of my articles are supported by scripture. If anyone wants to start calling this site “apostate” from a biblical perspective, it’s only fair that they should produce some sound scriptural evidence.
Hi Mandelay, this site is for people like yourself who are wandering what on earth is going on in the Watchtower org. As Cedars has said,not one word of what he has said has been proved wrong, and that goes for a lot of other posters on here to, myself included. I believe all of us would apologise if we said something that proved to me untrue. The fact is however, what is stated in this blog is imformation for people. Nobody is suggesting you just believe what is written. All are encouraged to check it for themselves, just like the ancient Bereons did.
The anointed could ask, why did the Governing Body confirm our standing as the Faithful and Discreet Slave for decades and then delete us.
They could have been more inclusive and drawn on the wisdom of years.
something to smile about – if you’re into irony. A snippet from Time Magazine:
1930 Judge Joseph Frederick Rutherford 60, lives in a ten room Spanish mansion, No 4440 Braeburn Rd, San Diego, Calif. Last week he deeded No 4440 Braeburn Road, and adjacent two car garage and a pair of automobiles to King David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, Samuel and sundry other mighties of ancient Palestine. Positive is he that they are shortly to reappear on earth, Said he: ‘I have purposely landscaped the place with palm and olive trees so that these princes of the universe will feel at home. (Time Magazine, March 31, 1930)
I was taught that there would be very few “anointed” left when the end came and that the number will decrease as the end drew near. The number of “anointed” is actually increasing. What’s wrong with this picture? And now the GB say that “new light” says that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. But of course we know that is NOT new light because that is the way it has been for years. But now they are officially saying it and officially elevating themselves above the rest of the anointed. Kind of makes you think of the Clergy of Christendom does it not.
Hi BeenMislead: I know this all seems obvious to many of us now, but, deception begins when we stop thinking and putting that kind of trust in anyone, leaders or not. I’ve come a long way from where I was when I left, and am a member of a Presbyterian Church. I am an Elder. Why would I ever want to be a part of any group, let alone a church?? Because I have seen what the Bible’s view of authority and leadership is. We are first loyal to Christ and the Scriptures, above a group or a church. But I would add, that the Society’s view of the ‘clergy’ is also phony. The Society’s take on the churches and ‘Christendom’ is the same as Hollywood’s take. You will never see a minister, or Christianity, shown in any positive light in most of the movies today. How many of us even learned, on our own, without the WT publications view, about Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Calvin, John Knox, etc? The older WT’s would quote from these people and before the NWT the Bible of record was the King James Version and you should read the glowing tribuite paid to this translation in “Equipped For Every Good Work” (1945), which I have. So, as with many schoolchildren and adults in our country, we really do not know history, and have never been taught it aside from the prism of the WT. The church will always be made up of true and false Christians. There will always be good and faithful leaders and bad ones. Our experience in JW’s should eventually lead to that place where we can be at peace in a faithful church where, as with myself, my first loyalty is not to my church, but to the Scriptures. My church holds to this standard. And I have walked alone without the support of my dear wife of 50 years who remains a JW! We just celebrated our 50th anniversary on Nov. 17! See what the Lord can do despite all the efforts of JW’s to destroy my marriage?!
Ernest,
Over the years the Watchtower has refered to the “elevated clergy class” (Example w96 2/15 Joyful Now and Forever). So now I see them (the GB) as “the elevated anointed class”. That is all I was saying.
I always wonder how many times my jaw is going to open before it hits the floor…well, I think it hit the floor! This is priceless! What a bunch of narcissistic, self important, self righteous, hypocrite liars! And here’s the even more unbelievable statement…most of JW’s will believe this load of BS! I tried to be more eloquent, I did, I thought about it…but BS and Horse crap is the best I can do! lol! What a complete joke, but what isn’t a joke is the millions of JW’s who will read it and just keep right on truckin without ever questioning, out loud anyway, and they’ll just keep believing the light is getting brighter. I think they’ve been “Blinded by the Light”! Thanks Cedars Rock on!!
You’re right, it’s only if you have been in the cult that you can understand, why the witnesses don’t go spare when something crazy is announced. It is simply mind control, but they do not realize they are being controlled. It took me 20 years to realize, others it took a lifetime. Hopefully more and more will realize and dump the org forever.
Frank 1: “…Last week (JF Rutherford) deeded No 4440 Braeburn Road, and adjacent two car garage and a pair of automobiles to King David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, Samuel and sundry other mighties of ancient Palestine…”
Thank you, Frank 1. It’s no wonder that such subjects are no longer discussed in the Watchtower and Awake! periodicals except in severely edited versions. We forget that one of the latest DVDs from the WT has completely left out the occult hankerings of the organisation’s founder!
What we have to remember is that the wishful thinking in your quote here could be deemed more of an ego trip than any sort of historical or prophetic study in the Scriptures. And we have to remember that such fundamentalist thinking is present when certain out-moded and controversial policies are made; by those who would keep its adherents on adrenaline high-alert!
@alan, were you raised as a JW? I was from the age of four with the “help” (indoctrination) of my father by my step mother. She is a tyrannt and fits the JW model that’s for sure. And even though I left and joined the military, I never shook it, ya know? It wasn’t until my younger sister gave me Joan and Bill Cetnar’s names that I started researching and reading and like I said, jaw dropping revelations…one after another. Anyway, it’s really tragic how these people will just let this blatant outright lying organization keep sucking them dry, physically, mentally, emotionally and financially. And too the people who are on here defending the JW’s—GO HOME! Meaning, us the “apostates” are done with you, do you not get it??? We found truth, and it’s defintely not with your organization!! No one here wants to argue with you. That’s what you people thrive on so much that you do it about everything. If you really wanted the truth many of these people would be glad to direct you towards finding it…but alas, you do not, you just want to keep on being a typical JW…so why don’t you go be just that and leave us “apostates” out of your psycho world.
Hi stormy, no I wasn’t brought up in the ‘untruth’. I got it at a vulnerable time in my life when I was 18. When I faded it was hard because I had dumped everyone who was not a witness.
The reason most people are on this site and comment is to show lurkers what it is like in the org.
I never forget that JWs are victims, just like I and countless others were.It’s true some JWs are there forever no matter what is said to them, others however are now checking what they have been told by the org, and are realizing there is something very wrong. These are the ones we can help. Not just by telling them all we know, but more importantly getting them to research the org. That way it is their decision to stay or leave.
Hi, Just started reading these blogs. They’re great!
I can understand why they have embarked on this new teaching. It distances themselves from the crazy world of Charles Russell and it consolidates authority to just a few like-minded men, seeing off any challenges from the other anointed JWs, as they no longer have any legitimate voice.
The governing body has admitted that the ‘faithful slave’ is not appointed over all the belongings until Jesus’ coming at the Great Tribulation. And yet, despite this being the time Jesus actually comes to judge them as faithful or not, they are prematurely calling themselves ‘the faithful slave’. No one can claim to be a faithful slave until Christ judges them so.
Another major concern is how the Watchtower will now interpret the time from Pentecost to 1919 AD. If there were no faithful Christians during this time, does that mean that the gates of Hades had prevailed over the Church? (Matthew 16:18) Jesus said he would be with his followers right until the end of the age, so why his absence for nearly 2,000 years? (Matthew 28:19,20) No doubt there will be some answers in a future Watchtower, but for now these questions are worth raising with Witnesses.
Matthew
Hi Mathew and welcome, everything you say is right, and you gotta hand it to the org, with one foul swoop they can now say that Russell was not part of the FADS so it’s not surprising he made so many mistakes. (We would say spouted such a load of rubbish)
The great thing is, whenever the gov body changes something, it opens up another load of questions. They are truly over a barrell, whatever they say now will simply expose them as old men making wrong guesses about the future.
My whole life I was taught that Armageddon is going to be here at any moment and is “imminent.” I was told that I would “never grow old”. (For example – Awake,5/22/69,Pg 15 – “If are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.”)
Well guess what? I’m old. The direction from the Holy Spirit said that the end was going to come in 1914, 1925, 1975. And even today I keep hearing from the platform and in the publications ”SOON” and in the “VERY NEAR FUTURE”. Those statements are misleading! They only use them to control the masses. They don’t know much time is left. These interpretations of Bible prophecy have proven to be false, so how can they claim to be “the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”???
(For example – Awake,5/22/69,Pg 15 – “If are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.”) I was 16 years old in 1969 and I made wrong decisions about education and other things based on their FALSE prophecy.
In the latest Watchtower (01/01/2013) there is an article called
“Have Jehovah’s Witnesses Given Incorrect Dates for The End?”
In it they give some lame excuses trying to justify their actions.
Which some may consider a step in the right direction, but I call it arrogant because there is no apology there for all the people like myself that made bad/wrong decisions because of their “Incorrect Dates”.
That is something unforgivable that the gov body have not done. That is never apologise for all their cock ups and guesses that have all come to nothing. Over the years witnesses gave up their careers, did not have vital operations and did not save for their future retirement, all because they were told the end was imminent and also that teens would not need to get a university education, as the end was so close.
They have a lot to answer for.
“That is something unforgivable that the gov body have not done. That is never apologise for all their cock ups and guesses that have all come to nothing.”
True they have not apologised for ALL their false predictions. However after the 1975 failure and subsequent blaming of the rank and file for having unrealistic expectations ( see WT July 15, 1976 pp
440-441) they did give a rather disingenuous apology in the WT March 15, 1980, pp17-18.
Disingenuous indeed. I don’t really see that as an apology. But more like excuses again trying to justify themselves.
(w80 3/15 Choosing the Best Way of Life Pg. 17)
“5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.
6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.”
Considering the massive amount of harm they have caused because of their mess ups, none of those articles took the complete blame, which they should have done.
Witnesses hang on every word the gov body speaks and the old men in New York know that. They have massive guilt for ruining many, many lives.
Saying the Watchtower are moving away from Charles Russell is one thing, however in reality the teachings and writings including the pyramids and locomotives were still being taught in 1919 well into the 1920′s. Russell’s writing carried on past 1919 even though he died in 1916.
“In the latest Watchtower (01/01/2013) there is an article called
“Have Jehovah’s Witnesses Given Incorrect Dates for The End?””
Am I the only person who sees this particular propaganda method?
Notice here AGAIN, the WTS uses the phrase ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’! It is not Jehovah’s Witnesses who made these false predictions – IT WAS THE WATCHTOWER GOVERNING BODY!!!
They try this trying to make ALL JWs take the responsibility over their useless child abuse policy on their site.
Frank 2
Alan: “That is something unforgivable that the gov body have not done. That is never apologise for all their cock ups and guesses that have all come to nothing….”
I wonder whether the true implications have been thought through on this issue. Has it occurred that if there are ‘guesses that come to nothing” what this implies?
(1) That Jehovah is not ‘building the house.’ That is, that God is not behind the efforts made to ‘guess’ at dates. (study of endtime prophecies or eschatology) or:
(2) The authors of such teachings (required by all adherents to believe and preach whether proving true or not) have gone beyond the Scriptures.
The point is that, as Carl Sagan says: “All extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.” Claims of ‘spirit-direction,’ I believe, is the same as ‘spirit-inspired’ as both phrases indicate an intimate relationship with heaven-directed truth.
Anonymous: “…they did give a rather disingenuous apology in the WT March 15, 1980, pp17-18.”
If I have my Watchtower right, this told us that the Governing Body were ‘just as disappointed’ as were the ‘rank-and-file’ that End had not come. What? Did the foregoing spring from ‘private interpretation’ or from those who ‘give food at the proper time’?
Frank 2
Hi Matthew. Are you Scottish, by any chance? And a victim of star chamber methodology that we could all learn from?
If they claim to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave from 1919, then they need to explain why the pyramids were taught after 1919, why 1925 was taught as an absolute date…. and on and on it go’s. It is true the Governing Body are responsible for everything written by the Watchtower Society.
Thank you, guys, interesting comments, appreciate the time and research.
Thought for today:
Consider the evidence – a HUGE amount of misleading material printed in their own publications (133 year’s worth)
The Question: Does the Watchtower Society (aka the Governing Body, or whatever they want to call themselves) truly love Jehovah God, and their neighbours?
1) In way does the leadership of the WTS show love for Jehovah – by printing and distributing 133 years worth of human reasonings, assumptions, deductions and outright guesses, all dressed up as “spiritual food from God’?
In fact, through their efforts, the Name of Jehovah has become detested, is mocked and vilified through-out the earth.
2) Similarly, is it love for neighbour to serve up “spiritual food” contaminated with human reasonings, assumptions, deductions and outright guesses? And pass this poison off as coming “from Jehovah’s table”? (As many will remember, under cross-examination Freddie Franz claimed that ‘the real editor of the Watchtower is Jehovah’)
In fact, through their efforts, the faith of millions of people has been damaged, and millions have been stumbled.
To wrap up for today, I believe that by and large it is the so-called ‘apostates’ who are actually standing for Truth, and the sanctification of God’s Name.
I cannot believe that the real “witnesses” – the men of faith (Hebrews 11) would condone this shameful situation in the WTS. The more one looks at it, the more one sees the ‘Organization’ is just like the unfaithful nation of Israel – ruled by people with the same ‘bad spirit’ as King Saul.
I decided a long time ago that the governing body of JWs were no better than fairground fortune tellers. They have a 100% record of getting things wrong when it comes to speaking about the future.
Then once I had read Ray Franz’ two books, any lingering doubts I might have had went straight out the window.
The JW religion only works for a person if they are not the type to do research or checks themselves. In a time of unparalleled imformation available on all subjects, the religion does not have a hope of growing significantly in internet available countries.
I look forward to reading the worldwide report in the new yearbook.
Very good point willows. In fact there were many things that the supposed approved governing body kept in place for years, that were totally unscriptual. I may do some research on it and list all the unscriptual ideas that they kept.
Hello everyone, I am new to this website and newly ‘enlightened at to what is really going on in the organization. I’ve been reading all this going back & forth and I know my opinion doesn’t matter. I never thought that this would happen to me. But all those still in the organization would never consider themselves ‘apostates’ or dissidents… let me tell you what has happened to us in the last month…My husband & I were baptized in 1979. We have been ‘happy’ good witnesses our entire lives until I had the audacity to read an article in Archeology magazine about Nebuchadnezzar destroying Jerusalem in 587 b.c.e instead of 607bce. So I went to encyclopedias, the British museum website [which has 10's of thousands of clay tablets with this info] So I asked an elder friend of ours what evidence does the organization use to come up with the 607bce date? First words out of his mouth were you’ve been visiting apostate websites! I told him “no I read an article in Archeology mag” . I just wanted to know the evidence. He accused me of being an apostate and now we’re sitting here waiting for the spiritual execution that we will be getting. After 49 yrs of being loyal to Jehovah I never thought that I would have to make a choice like this. It’s tearing us up to our very core but now when we’re researching everything the organization has been involved in….just the U.N thing alone should make us question the organization. Their own literature is damning them. May 1st 1997 WT pg 8
The 1914 date is linked to the supposed destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BC. Carl Olof Jonsson in his book The Gentile Times Reconsidered exposes the Wachtowers false claims regarding the 2520 years of the gentile times ending in 1914. He passed his research on to the NY headquarters and was subsequently disfellowshipped for continuing to believe his research was correct and discussing it. A very useful site with regard to discussing the 586/7 or 607 dates is Doug Mason’s (see http://www.jwstudies.com/babylonian_captivity.html) Doug critiques the Watchtower’s latest articles entited ‘When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed’? published in the October 1st and November 1st 2011 issues of the Watchtower magazine.
Hi upset at watchtower. Welcome first of all. Good to see you on here. It is indeed very hard to realize that after such a long time in the organisation, you begin to question what you have been told. The bible actually tells us to question and check things, like the Bereans did and now like you are doing. I think you can see something seriously wrong by the response you got from the elder. If there had been definate proof that Jeruselem was overthrown in 607 BCE, there would not have been that response. Most JWs elders no they are on very shaky ground with that date, because all the worlds experts point to the date of 537 BCE.
You will find the more you check things, the more you will find the org are in error. Sometimes it can take almost a lifetime to find out the truth about the ‘truth’ or as I call it the untruth.
If you have not read them yet then get Ray Franz book ‘Crisis of Conscience’ It is written by an ex governing body member, who made the mistake of having a meal with his boss who had disassociated himself. That was not the real reason of course. He just asked too many questions. You will find everything in the book is checkable, and I am willing to bet, will leave no doubt in your mind that God is not using this oprganisation.
Keep us posted, and remember thanks to the internet, most of your questions can be answered very easily onliine.
All the best to you.
If the Faithful and Discreet Slave was appointed in 1919. Why did they promote 1925? And Rutherford to say after 1925 he made an ass of himself. Many left the organization, stumbled by what had been printed about this date. To promote 1925 ……. your own interpretation of scripture is presumptuousness.
When the master arrives will he be happy with this slave class, who have scattered his sheep? 1914…. 1925…. 1975….. 1994
(01/01/2013)
“Have Jehovah’s Witnesses Given Incorrect Dates for The End?”
I’ve read this five paragraph piece of propaganda..
Again the governing body of the Watchtower Society holds intelligent Jehovah’s Witnesses in contempt. This is only the second time in 130 years (to my knowledge) that there is a tragically-belated admission (they have no choice up against the evidence) in the publications, but again – THERE IS NO APOLOGY!
The attitude is like being on a different timeline and watching Adolf Hitler getting up in a Nuremberg court and declaring that even though he invaded Poland, murdered 6,000,000 Jews, and caused the death of over 50 million people, he thought it was the right thing to do at the time, and all the court has to do is recognise that this is just the way he is.
Atheist Christopher Hitchens catches the moment well in God is Not Great – Why Religion Poisons Everything, by explaining that when the Catholic Church made multiple apologiesfor multiple historical sinful admissions, they were doing so with the proviso that the ‘faithful’ understand that the church was ready to be infallible all over again!
Notice too the title of of the insertion has the words ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ (hiding behind 7,000,000 aprons when it all goes wrong is classic propaganda) – not ‘Governing Body of the Watchtower,’ and ‘incorrect’ instead of ‘false.’ What comes after is a statement of pride that they have faithfully just carried out the core work of the Lord.
Tough if you were one of the unfortunates who got caught under the wheels of the tank!
Hi, upset at Watchtower. Your courage is commended. And we feel for you, knowing what you are going through. It is quite frightening when the smiling mask of the WTS is dropped, and one gets to see the real face. I’ve seen grown, strong men cry as they recount how they were treated. One was a Bethelite – he and his wife had given their entire lives to the WTS.
Consider this a deliverance from Jehovah. It is happening to thousands, and we hope and believe that everyone who really loves truth will be rescued from this abusive, paranoid organization.
It will hurt at first, losing friends and all the connection you build up over that time is painful, but you will discover how the WTS has been blocking you from really getting to know and follow Jesus Christ.
The document 100 Years of Watchtower Prophecy is a 20 page indictment of the WTS . Simply quotes from their literature (in full, with reference so you can check it) – and illustrates how they have fabricated information, and then fed these deceptions to their flock. If you can’t find it, let me know and I’ll post a link.
Best wishes, and courage. Stick to your guns. Would Jesus Christ jump to conclusions and hurl false accusations at a person innocently looking for answers? Never!
By their fruits you will know them
By starting from 1919, they obviously get rid of Charles Russell’s mad ramblings, but thy are still left with no end of other mistakes, wrong guesses and general cock ups. So really all they are doing is getting rid of a small part of the damming evidence against them
There are still mountains of lies, false stories and cover ups, that can easily be learnt about on the internet by anyone who is interested.
hi Upset with WT, if one has doubts that is not a reason to DF, if one is spreading that doubt then they accuse you of causing divisions in the congregation.
The fact that you went to the elder with this information shows that you were humble and only inquiring about what you had found, when he straight away accused you of going on apostate sites show that the elders are well aware of what so called apostates say. Either its because they can’t defend it and have to make sure you don’t speak to anyone else in the KH about what you have found would be the only reason why they would want to get you out, fear is what they have.
What is interesting is that there is nothing in the elders manual on DF anyone with doubts or someone inquiring about a teaching they need help with, it is much more sinister, they simply cannot except any b/s that does personal study outside of what is written in their own publications.
Sorry for what you are going through but remember you are there for Jehovah not for any man, and as time passes and the more the WT is exposed for its failure and pride to correct their mistakes many like you will just walk out the door.
I want to thank everyone who has been honest in their efforts show “us” the real truth. I have been struggling for the last couple of months, now realizing my family has shunned me. It feels horrible. I went to Freeminds a few times a few years ago. Then recently started to actually read some books and read the bible. My goal is to get to a place where I can understand and communicate the things I am trying to learn to someone who might be in the WTS. I feel like I’m going to burst, I’m so angry at these jacka$$e$ but on the other hand I want to tell them what I am learning. Tried that on my father, needless to say, it didn’t work. It’s hard to be shunned. Never thought I would be. But I guess I have to face the reality that when my dad dies I won’t even be told. I am both shocked and sickened by the things I read on here, but the truth is the truth. And I do feel better knowing I’m not alone in this struggle. So thank you everyone.
You are not alone. My name is William E Enoch Sr and I am in a very similar circumstance. The same arrogance of the GB trickles downs to its members. Mind control keeps WTS members in a fog and will not acknowlege outside reasoning or inside deceit. After all, WTS members sincerely believe the have “The Truth”.
You have knowledge that is valuable. It may not be good to throw your pearls to swine, as the Bible suggests. The WTS will come full circle and realize the tangle web of deceit can’t continue. At that point, look for the GB to either repent or collapse.
Thanks for your world wide work. (haha) The Governing Body is actually staying in form by only strongly alluding to themselves as being the Faithful and Discreet Slave. You are of the few who really noticed the careful wording in the announcement. This is how the Watch Tower Society over the years spread its teaching. The WTS firsts alludes to a matter and lay out assumptions. WTS members take the assumptions, along with the many “stands to reason”, “could be”, “must mean”, believing the conjecture as “The Truth”, then run with these falsehoods from door to door.
The GB has now opened up a very different life and death can of worms for itself and WTS members. What mind control technique will the GB use now in explaining to inquiring members how this “New Light” kills the 1914 and 1919 doctrine? But wait, WTS members don’t inquire for fear of being disfellowshipped. Yeah, the GB is appears more and more like the Evil Slave spoken of in the same book of Matthew.
I’m a former member of the WTS. My six siblings and three children are currently WTS members. These nine family members will have nothing to do with me since I’ve been sharing my testimony of freedom of WTS mind control. I’m looking for a way to help them out of the WTS.
Stormy I am sorry to hear what has happened to you. My husband and I are out together. I am so thankful he read COC when I told him about it. I would like to make a recommendation to you and that would be to read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan and the Freedom of Mind by Steve Hassan. There is a way to approach others successfully because when you tell them something the WTS is lying about they will go to their cult personality and shut you out. We having been fading for at least 6-8 months but I think we will have to DA in order to have total peace of mind. None of my family are in which I am thankful for and they are all so happy. My husband has 5 & 6 generations in his family but most are gone and his Mom would never shun him. We will lose friends but I have been doing more with my family and getting out and doing fun things. It has not been easy at all and it has been very hard on my husband because he was an Elder and saw things he didn’t agree with and stepped down. I do hate to lose some people but we are using this time to get some family and friends out, we have been successful with two so far. We have been very careful and have talked to ones that are not going so they won’t go back and they were both so grateful because it weighed heavily on there minds. I understand being angry and shocked. I view the GB as a bunch of criminals. What they have done to children with their policies is just a drop in the bucket. Like my husband said the other day, nothing surprises him anymore. It is pretty bad! Hang in there!!
Upset, I feel for you too, maybe the books I recommended would help too! COC by Ray Franz has helped so many people. I have read so much that sometimes my head spins but I am not going to turn back now!! As a matter of fact I am with my family today celebrating Thanksgiving! I am thankful today that I have found the real truth and trying to get over the anger of spending 29 years living a lie and for my husband it has been almost 59 years since he is a born in with 5 & 6 generations of his family living this way. Everyone have a wonderful day!
Aunt Fancy, my sincere best wishes to you both. And my respects to your husband. Elders have it particularly tough – the most controlled in an organization run by control-freaks. It takes courage to step down over matters of principle. Have you noticed something – everyone describes their exit from the organization is terms of an “escape”. Which it is. They hold people by taking your family as hostages. Keep going, and all the best. Shalom.
@William Enoch and Aunt Fancy, Thank you both for your loving and encouraging words. You don’t know how much it means to me. I’m not all together sure I’m headed for Jesus, but I do know I’m going to learn everything I can so that I may pass this along to any would be victims of this harmful cult. Just telling my story and showing all the lies, not too mention the “hidden masonic images” in all their art, might be enough to dissuade someone from letting JW’s even talk with them. When I began to examine all their hidden images of goat heads and demons and hexagons, etc., I had that same eerie feeling sweep through my stomach as a kid when looking through their literature. And they always talked about AC/DC and Ozzy Osbourne being demonic. Oh please! It was the rock and roll, make up, big hair, say scary stuff to sell records era. Not too mention it was a time, not unlike the 60′s where the youth of today made a statement about being different and used their music to prove it…no different than the disco era, or the Elvis Presley and Beatles era. They are always looking for the demon in the closet and around the corner…maybe they should start with their own homes and KH’s and literature. And now the GB coming out with, “oh by the way we are the slave class, new light” I’ve just had all I can stomach of them. I intend to put a dent in their racket around here by warning others of the deceit and pure evil that is behind those “nice and polite” people who knock on your door.
Stormy, hang in there.
It’s a painful process, but you’re on the road to healing.
Living with the Watchtower Organization is like living with someone who has BIPOLAR – some of the things they say are very sweet, loving and nice. Then they swing to the other extreme, and abuse you, maybe even attack you physically. You never know that coming next. Very confusing And they tell the most outrageous lies and fabrications – the problem being, they believe it themselves, so there’s no reasoning with them.
It may help you to have a look at reputable sites that discuss this mental disorder.
You will immediately see the similarities, and suggestions for ways to heal.
Here’s one reference:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/bipolar-disorder
You are welcome, and I understand!! We all go through a lot of the same emotions just different stories. It isn’t easy but it does get better. Keep doing your research and if at all possible try to get some of your loved ones out. I have found out just knowing the real truth has taken a huge load off of my back and I feel like I can live again!
I keep hearing that the “new light” will “kill” the 1914 and 1919 doctrines. This is quite a claim that needs evidence. As I understand it, the corporeally self-acclaimed future kings and priests are simply stating that there is a second anointing, aren’t they? That this is where they’ll be officially appointed over “all the belongings.” I’m not sure how 1914 is involved. Could someone enlighten my ignorance, please.
One thought I have is that if the “F&DS” have not, to date, been appointed over all the belongings, then doesn’t that mean that so far no corporeal judicial decision is legitimate. I’m probably wrong.
Kat: “The fact that you went to the elder with this information shows that you were humble and only inquiring about what you had found, when he straight away accused you of going on apostate sites show that the elders are well aware of what so called apostates say.”
You raise a great point here, Kat. Matthew Barrie’s judicial case gives evidence that unethical unscrupulous elders will use even testimony given in what is reasonably presumed to be a private conversation between a congregation member and two elders (“Bible principle” taken from the twisting of certain scriptures) can be and has been used as “evidence” of “apostasy” in the formal setting of a judicial committee.
The recorded fact is, that even his fleshly brother, Paul was prepared to testify to private conversations had between him and his brother. The other “witness’ elder testified his account based on his deliberately-raised question to trap Matthew into discussing a belief the latter had that presently differed from the Organisation’s (the present beliefs of the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’).
He was convicted primarily on this evidence and the fact that he had had lunch with a workmate who had been disfellowshipped (no proof that they had discussed anything controversial). Apart from this no corroborating congregational witnesses were called to testify that he had been ‘spreading teachings contrary to the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses’! Mere ‘judicial’ technicalities’!
Never take for granted that because a person is appointed an elder that they can be trusted with ANY discussion.
Hello Frank. You may know that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. has taught until October of this year the Faithful and Discreet Slave was identified with the Apostles. The WBTS also taught the Master, Jesus, returned invisibly, in the form of “His presence, in 1914 then in 1919 the Master appointed the FDS, as made up of the anointed remnant on Earth, over His belongings.
As of October 2012, the WBTS, now switched the date of the appointment of the FDS from the first century CE to 1919 CE. The WBTS also now switched the time of the Master placing the FDS over all His belongings to a future time when He comes as a thief in the night.
The real “New Light” are the dates and times. Now that 1919 is the “new” date of the FDS appointment, then the 1914 date of Christ’s “invisible presence” is brought into question. Also, the GB slowly began working its way into authority after the Watch Tower Presidency was brought to a close. To sound as though the GB had all along been the FDS, the GB cleaverly worked into the announcement this dialog taken from the jwdotorg site:
“From 1919 on, there has always been a small group of anointed Christians at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have supervised our worldwide preaching work and have been directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. In recent years, that group has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”
In an effort to grab more authority by strongly alluding to themselves as now being the FDS, the GB had to manipulate dates. To appease the WBTS members, aka Jehovah’s Witnesses, the GB skillfully made all JWs domestics.
Good morning everyone.
Thought for today:
Thank God for the freedom He has given you through Jesus Christ
WHO STAND IN THE WAY OF FREEDOM?
“The ruling ecclesiastical class … violently silenced a voice [Cyril Lucaris - in 1638] that pointed to some of the errors of their non-Biblical beliefs. They proved to be among the worst enemies of religious freedom and truth. Sadly, this is a stance that in various ways survives even to our day. It is a sobering reminder of what happens when clergy-instigated intrigues stand in the way of freedom of thought and expression.”
February 15, 2000 Watchtower
To ‘Upset’. Carl Olof Jonsson has also written critiques of the WT articles of Oct and Nov 1, 2011. Miken refers to Doug Mason’s critiques- it features an email from a scholar that the WT quoted in the 2nd article, who says that the WT’s use of his research was a misrepresentation of his work. Not once in these articles does it mention the WT’s real reason for defending the 607 date- it needs it to protect 1914 (2520 years prophecy).
My advice to you ‘Upset’, is if you are waiting to be ‘spiritually stoned’- don’t give them the satisfaction. Resign and then at least you have taken action against the WT and not the other way round. By the time a judicial hearing is set, you are considered guilty and the outcome is inevitable unless you ‘recant’.
I am currently playing ‘cat and mouse’ with my cong elders and am trying to ‘fade’, but if it comes to the crunch, I will resign.
So true Ross. Along with the pre-conditioning, the GB started setting themselves up for more authority a while back when they reinforced the idea for WBTS members to “be obedient to those taking the lead” and “listen to Jehovah’s spokesman”. Now that the GB strongly allude to themselves as actually being the FDS, the authority is already there for them to claim because the members will give it to them. To complete the deceit, the GB had to manipulate dates and continue with the best bait for their hook, conjecture.
In 1919 the Writings of Charles Russell were being taught. The 7 volume, Studies in the Scriptures. Rutherford continued with Russell’s teaching till 1927. The various dates that Russell promoted 1874, continued in 1919. If the Faithful and Discreet Slave was appointed in 1919, why were they still teaching 1874?
At what date did they stop teaching 1874?
Thanks Frank, you are right, I feel like we have escaped!! I never knew everything about why he stepped down until recently and he was asked many times to become a servant but he wouldn’t do it. I now understand that his conscience wouldn’t allow him to harm others and I am proud of him for that. He said he looked back over the years he was one and he feels good knowing he never hurt another person or did any of the back handed things that we read about all the time. It sure has been a process and I still fight with the anger from all of it.
Charles Russell’s date, the arrival of Jesus presence, or second coming in 1874, was taught in 1919. This date was taught throughout Rutherford’s time as President of the Watchtower Society. It appears the date for Jesus second coming was changed from 1874 to 1914 some time in the 1940,s.
This means many were baptized for decades with misleading expectations and information. Now today, if you advocate 1874 and not 1914 within the Watchtower Society you will be disfellowshipped and shunned. Called a mentally diseased apostate. It was alright in 1919 and beyond, to preach to others about 1874. Not so today. People’s sense of justice is outraged by double standards.
Double standards are an abuse of the Truth. It is like teaching black is black, then changing to teaching, black is white.
Steve, you ask an interesting question – why bother? Let’s turn that around – why do YOU bother to post here if it’s such a waste of time?
That aside, the main point is, many folk who have broken free from the Watchtower Religion invariably comment: “we would NEVER have got involved THEN if we KNEW what we know NOW”.
Which illustrates the conviction of most people on this site – the WATCHTOWER SOCIETY PERSISTENTLY CONCEALS THE TRUTH ABOUT ITS PAST. Thereby practicing something it condemns other religions of doing.
So – we have a duty to speak out and testify to the things we have seen, heard, experienced and above all, what we know. If we keep silent, then, as Enoch Powell Snr. comments, we would be guilty of criminal and moral neglect.
If the Watchtower Society openly confessed its sins – apologized for all the harm and confusion it has caused, sought forgiveness for stumbling people and wrecking their faith in God and Jesus, and put things right – we could all get on with our lives happily.
Believe me, we all have other things we would far rather be doing.
Hi Frank, I can’t find any comments by ‘Steve’. Have they been removed for some reason?
So many JWs ask us why we don’t just get on with our new lives. You are right about all the deception etc. I feel I have a duty to others to warn them of this damaging sect.
Not only that, but of course many of us have family still in the org, and we need to know the latest stupidity they are having to agree to.Trouble is the Watchtower has such a hold over them, that they are scared to death to talk to anyone who is an ex witness.
That won’t stop me trying though to get through to them. Certainly on blogs like this, we can show anyone who is interested the lies and double standards of the organisation.
They try to CONCEAL THE TRUTH ABOUT ITS PAST.
Here is an example:
_________________________________________________________
1990 Awake 4/22 entitled: How Long Can We Live?
“MANY PEOPLE alive today will have the opportunity for a greatly prolonged life span. Even immortality now seems possible.”
“Millions Now Living May Never Die.”
What is the difference between these two statements? The first is a statement by Dr. Lawrence E. Lamb, medical columnist and professor, in his book Get Ready for Immortality, published in 1975. The second is the title of a public address and subsequent book by J. F. Rutherford, the second president of the Watch Tower Society. The public address was first delivered in Los Angeles, California, in 1918.
_________________________________________________________
We all know that is wrong!! The title of Rutherford’s talk was:
“Millions Now Living Will Never Die”.
So the question is: Is this just a mistake? Or did they do this on purpose and are guilty of Historical Revisionism in an attempt to try to CONCEAL THE TRUTH ABOUT ITS PAST???
What do you think?
Hi been misled. If you google it you will find that Rutherford originally gave the talk and said MAY. But then about 5 weeks later they changed it to WILL and that is how most people will remember it. The book said WILL, so really just more deception by the governing body, although they can always say they were referring to the original talk. lol
Thanks Alan … I stand corrected …
A public talk titled “The World Has Ended; Millions Now Living May Never Die” was first delivered on February 24, 1918 in Los Angeles, California. Five weeks later, on March 31, 1918 the title was changed to indicate absolute certainty: “The World Has Ended; Millions Now Living Will Never Die.”
While a member of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. for nearly 40 years, I never thought of the actual components of the “organization” and the “Society”: 1. The Watch Tower Society as the corporation and 2. Jehovah’s Witnesses as the members. It was only from my now outside vantage point that I realize the corporation is blatently using the Jehovah’s Witnesses to recruit more members for them. This organization is distinctly two in one.
Has anyone else noticed lately how the Watch Tower Society is starting to control its members from behind the scenes more and more? Now, with the claimed new power and member given authority, the Governing Body appears to be heading under a cloaking device. Almost giving its members a sense the members are in control. What salesmanship. For example, the Watch Tower Society has “updated” or changed its web site from watchtowerdotorg to JWdotorg. I believe this is a move to distance itself legally from court cases coming upon it and change the name of the organization to what most of the world has been calling it already: Jehovah’s Witnesses. This way, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the members, will now be responsible legally and the Witnesses will better accept the fact that their donations will be used for legal judgements. The Watch Tower will still be in charge of money, as managers of the members.
I have been on this site a few times and it’s a really great place to go to to get information you won’t find at your local Kingdom Hall. I had been studying on and off for ten yrs and I am so glad that I did not get sucked into it. Thank goodness my family are not JW’s. Of course I had made some close friendships, which I will miss but I realize in the long run they are a destructive sect and it will only do me better to cut ties now than to continue studying and being friends with those whom I have gotten close to. It is quite sad. I sympathize with those who still have family, friends still in the Organization. It must be so difficult not being able to communicate and have normal family/friend contact. Right now I am going through a difficult time since I have ceased studying about a month ago but I know with time I will get stronger! The more I learn about this destructive sect, the more I realize how wrong I was to have gone back to studying. My husband warned me, thankfully he stopped studying back in 2009 vowing he didn’t want anything to do with the cult. I should have listened then.
Along the same line of thought as Anonymous, is the article in the Jan ’13 mag, asking the question have JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES set wrong dates for the ‘end’. Actually it is the authors of past WT literature who have made these predictions, NOT JWs as individuals or as a collective. They conveniently lump everyone in when their (the authors of WT literature) predictions fail.
Wow. You may have just revealed “New Light”. I like it.
Wow. JimmyG. You may have just revealed “New Light”. I like it. The cheeky Watch Tower DOES USE the Jehovah’s Witnesses to spread its false doctrine to begin with. The stage is set for a mutiny. But Jehovah’s Witnesses would have to give up fear of being disfellowshipped to pull this off.
From the Jehovah’s Witness forum on Topix UNchained wrote:
“‘When this trash is ‘studied’ during a Watchtower Study all the JW’s who have ‘made the truth their own’ will bob their heads up and down in agreement as they swallow the kool-aid with big smiles on their faces.”
I responded to UNchained:
‘Some members are already bobbing in agreement with their so typical responses. Some current 2012 and past head bobbing listed below:
“I love new understandings. It shows how Jehovah’s people, namely the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class, are humble and willing to adjust their thinking. Rather than stubbornly sticking to false doctrine”
“The slave thus deserves our complete trust.”
“True #Religion will be fed by Faithful Discreet Slave given food at proper time they will be AWAKE to Prophecy while world SLEEPS!”
“Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?”
“The slave thus deserves our complete trust.If you do not know whom they are! You have not found the truth YET!”
“we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the faithful and discreet slave’ organization.”
“Your attitude toward the anointed is the determining factor whether you go into everlasting cutting off or everlasting life.”
“Recognition of the GB and its place in God’s theocratic arrangement is necessary for the submission of headship to God’s Son” WT12.15.72
“Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life” WT 12/1/1981
Some members call Old Light, which is also from the WTS, “false doctrine”, however, the Governing Body is still to be COMPLETELY TRUSTED. Weird. WBTS pridefully never admit they were wrong in their teachings.’”
Moma started studying with members of the WTS around 1965. Had she, been alive now to see the resultant effect that first knock on our door has exponetially ruined our family, I believe Moma would have emphatically slammed the door on that gray-headed innocent looking old lady.
You have just saved yourself and your family untold unnecessary heartache. I commend you and am thankful for you.
This comment is in reply to MsD
William, the WT writers are ‘wordsmiths’ and they are very good at it. It appears now, in my opinion, that the word ‘organisation’ will be gradually replaced with ‘association’ and the expression ‘Governing Body’ will soon be gone, its replacement being ‘F&DS’. The 2nd baptism question now contains the words ‘Spirit anointed association’ (used to be ‘Spirit directed organisation’)
As far as mutiny is concerned, I can’t see it happening on a large scale, as the Org holds the DF/shunning fear over the majority of JWs.
Respectfully, I recognize that many people have much pent up for a long time and have never had an avenue or others with which to express a lot of very serious and legitimate issues as did I. I also appreciate that it takes time for people to reach their own therapeutic point where they can decide that enough has been expressed but let me please say these few things. Either Dan 2:44 is true or it isn’t and there will be a Kingdom restored or not. The Bible says clearly that WHEN Jesus returned he would deal with the Evil Slave so it is not in “1919″ or some past time as the WT Society conveniently likes to apply. Some things are obvious at this point. If people really benefit from spending their time and vital energy bashing and trashing on here then by all means. I am uncomfortable with words like “untruth” since we owe so much but I’m becoming ever more confident that nothing is happening that isn’t meant to. That’s all I wanted to say…Bye!
The society has alluded to the fact that when Christ does return to settle accounts with any FDS, this is also a period of judgment for his house, that mean the evil slave will be kicked to the curb, and that is where their weeping and gnashing occurs.
The GB fail to take into account that the evil slave also resides with the FDS, and the judgment starts with Gods house first.
there false teaching that Christ came in 1919 and disiplined a few rewarded as the FDS and those other bible students that left back then were the evil slave.
So if as they say that the slave has not been rewarded and it future also says that the evil slave is still in the same house.
I personally believe that the evil slave is the GB of JW.
Anoymous: “For example, the Watch Tower Society has “updated” or changed its web site from watchtowerdotorg to JWdotorg. I believe this is a move to distance itself legally from court cases coming upon it and change the name of the organization to what most of the world has been calling it already: Jehovah’s Witnesses. This way, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the members, will now be responsible legally and the Witnesses will better accept the fact that their donations will be used for legal judgements.”
Thanks, Anonymous. I have been having similar thoughts. You point out the likely sinister motive of making others accept the sharing of the financial burden of all JWs with up-coming court case involving child abuse etc. Of course, Jehovah’s Witnesses have ALWAYS footed the bill for such GB errors; the difference now is that by changing the website name etc, the ‘rank-and-file’ members will be persuaded by propaganda to accept that so much more of their hard-earned and innocently-given cash will be used illegitimately for these ‘Catholic Church’-type cock-ups.
Could it be however, that the Governing Body have all-along being paying for their own legal errors out of their own personal fortunes? Hmm.
At one time things in my mind were always simple as an ignorant and hazy-eyed worker-bee. The Internet has changed all that. Now we can get documented evidence of the matters we all at one-time suspected weren’t right.
When it comes to organised religion – are any of us really that surprised?
Frank 2
William Enoch Sr: “The stage is set for a mutiny. But Jehovah’s Witnesses would have to give up fear of being disfellowshipped to pull this off.”
Don’t worry, this is not a totally fantastic notion. Remember why the Berlin Wall fell. And don’t forget that such a ‘mutiny’ may already be in the offing with ones like JimmyG who are wising-up. The more the GB punish the innocent for wanting to look behind the curtain, the more the ‘rank-and-file’ will become suspicious.
If huge crowds leave, they might even find some humility bouncing around the empty caverns of their sleeping consciences.
Frank 2
Konrad: “Some things are obvious at this point. If people really benefit from spending their time and vital energy bashing and trashing on here then by all means. I am uncomfortable with words like “untruth” since we owe so much but I’m becoming ever more confident that nothing is happening that isn’t meant to.”
I’m interested, Konrad, why you pop up every now and then. If you think this is not a good idea, why not just delete the site from your search-engine?
People come here because it is therapeutic for them. It is like a support-group of like-minded individuals. Did you notice, for instance, that the only one who used insulting language was someone claiming to be a ‘loyal’ servant of the Governing Body!
By-and-large, people here are respectful of what they believe to be truth and are sharing their hurt with others. What makes me uncomfortable is when anyone refers to the full teachings of the WTBTS as ‘the Truth,’ ‘the truth,’ or whatever derivatives are chosen. Truth is not something that changes, it remains constant and inviolable. What the WTS teaches is ‘revealed’ truth. It cannot be the truth (small ‘t’) at any one time as it is ALWAYS subject to change.
Some people have made life-changing decisions based on ‘truth’ and found some these teachings have been reversed or ‘tacked,’ which means that have gone backwards and forwards depending on what individual members of the Governing Body have personally (evidently) believed. How, then do we mentally, spiritually and emotionally process that these men are the spokesmen for Almighty God?
Can you help us with that, Konrad?
Frank 2
Hi MsD, You are right it is not easy to give up what you were so sure was the truth just a little while ago. It’s really good that you are doing your own research into the org. Nobody on this blog wants anybody to leave just because we say you should. You will find no end of hidden secrets the Watchtower has and does not want its members to know about. Great that you have your husband for support, If you have not already, I strongly urge you to get the book ‘Crisis of conscience’ by Ray Franz, a former goverrning body member. You will be in no doubt at all after reading it. Everything he says can be verified and the Watchtower is powerless to sue him, as all he says is correct.
Enjoy your new life, I know I enjoy mine now.
Hi Konrad, you use the expression bashing and trashing. Actually want is on this blog in the main is quite simply an expose of the organisation. All JWs ever say about ex witnesses is that they lie and deceive people. However whenever I or others ask them what lies and deception we have spread they are not able normally to show anything. In contrast if you ask ex witnesses what the society have lied about or deceived it’s members about, we can give you a very long list, which you will be able to check yourself.
I used to think it was the love they showed that proved they were the true religion. However that love is totally conditional on you agreeing with everything the gov body tell you. Once you show you do not agree with certain doctrines, your so called friends will drop you like a hot brick. I strongly urge you to do your own research on the org, rather than just accepting their one sided view.
So true DB. Just check out twitter bios of JWs. Many will claim to be “proud Jehovah’s Witness” or “proud JW” or “proud worshipper of the only true God Jehovah. Psalms 83:18″. These bios seem to reflect an attempt to convince the bio owners themselves they’re content. Based upon my nearly 40 years within the “organization”, I personally don’t believe many are indeed content within the WTS.
Hi William. Yes agree with you. Most witnesses try very hard to convince everybody that they are 100% behind the org. Most though have doubts, and often the reason they stay is because they think there is nothing better out there.
The old misquote comes up of ‘where else can we go’. Because the org has exposed certain wrong doctrines of the other religions, the witnesses think they are better off staying where they are. Of course in many ways their own religion is much worse for them than any new religion they may adopt.
Thankfully these days many are seeing the light and leaving the organistion in droves. But there will always be vulnerable people I guess who will get sucked in to it as many of us were.
We all can see directly on the JWdotorg site how the Watch Tower Society arrived at their “conclusion”, “hypothesis”, “scientific analysis” or “allusion” of the GB as being the FDS:
“It is reasonable to conclude, then, that Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave” over “his domestics” during his presence, “the conclusion of the system of things.”
And continuing:
“‘The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919.”‘
And the conclusion:
“When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”
Why was this “New Light” arrived at by a concluded by humans in deducing this doctrinal matter and stop short to reveal it came from Holy Spirit? I believe even this group of men know that blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life or that which is to come.
Frank,
Please don’t give me a hard time. I don’t think I “pop up” on here at all. And even if I did, Who cares? I’m only concerned. I was merely stating the obvious in case it wasn’t to some. “When…The Son of man arrives…” and “He will start beating his fellow workers” so we are talking about a current end time event. It’s not necessary to get all worked up. I finally got it. I said that therapy for some takes longer. Go reread my post and lose the hostility …Good Bye!
You are right Alan about the misquote of “where else will we go” when referring to Peter’s words to Jesus. Some of the ones just barely hanging in “the organization” could benefit from realizing Peter didn’t want to leave Jesus Christ. Not wanting to leave Jesus Christ isn’t the same as not wanting to leave an organization.
The WTS appears to have clandestinely kept members apart from Jesus from the start. Some members possibly may misquote the John 6:68 Bible verse and insert “the organization” into the verse, within their own minds, because its very likely “the organization” is all some earnestly know. Now, the Governing Body, in masquerading as Faithful and Discreet Slave, use intimidation and peer pressure to keep members trapped.
Since 2004, I’ve began a slow process of shaking off the idea of where else can I go other than the WTS. My answer is to allow myself to believe Jesus is my Mediator to Father and Father’s Grace is sufficient for me. I’ve accepted Jesus’ Blood for the forgivness of my sins. I’ve accepted that only Father can draw me to Jesus. I’ve realized that Father and Jesus are my life and my wife is second to Them. I now have a whole new outlook on life that I’ve found to best for me.
“about the misquote of “where else will we go” when referring to Peter’s words to Jesus.”
A classic example is from the Watchtower Sept 15, 2010 page 18 para 7. Speaking about the FDS :-
” Jehovah’s spirit and blessing are linked to the ONE association of brothers that God is using. Even if someone in the congregation upsets us, where else can we turn? Nowhere else can we hear the sayings of everlasting life. John 6:68.”
The quote speaks volumes with regard to substituting Jesus with the GB . See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzxITjK4KtQ
Konrad: ‘“When…The Son of man arrives…” and “He will start beating his fellow workers” so we are talking about a current end time event…”
Here’s something to allay your concern, Konrad. Try not to get anxious about how some clever people ‘tweak the inkblot.’ Try living in the moment, not a future with any number of possibilities.
You give me the impression that you are very worried about future events. This tells me how deeply-taught your beliefs are. I was born into this organisation but have had doubts and questions for many many years. It is my experience that humans will ALWAYS disappoint in the end. There is no reason why the Governing Body of the Watchtower should be any different. Part of the answer is just to expect disappointment and when something actually works out – it’s a bonus!
The fact is, Konrad, that should you choose to accept this present piece of ‘revealed truth,’ you will find in five years you may have to believe something contradictory, or at least ‘tweaked.’
Enjoy the moment, Konrad, smell the flowers and take an evening walk just to enjoy nature, and try not to dwell too deeply on inkblots.
Frank 2
JimmyG: “William, the WT writers are ‘wordsmiths’ and they are very good at it. It appears now, in my opinion, that the word ‘organisation’ will be gradually replaced with ‘association’ and the expression ‘Governing Body’ will soon be gone, its replacement being ‘F&DS’.”
I would say the WTS employ spin-doctors, actually. Wordsmiths merely construct well-written paragraphs; spin-doctors have motivation to manipulate. The word, ‘association’ is to give a better ‘first-century’ feeling the organisation. Perhaps this is because the word (and ‘Governing Body’) doesn’t appear in the Bible. Clever, eh?
Frank 2
Frank, I’m trying my best to stay off here and do just that so I can stop saying “Good Bye” but let me say this, That was my point! I believe Jehovah has got it all in hand and there is nothing that is happening that isn’t supposed to soooo you can go smell some flowers yourself! I said, If any of you benefit from being on here? I’m not gonna tell you what to do and it may very well prove cathartic but don’t think it’s gonna pragmatically change much. I doubt that too many have lost as much as I have to these people. Some maybe but not likely and every contact I have they still beat, Rape and rob me so if I can feel this way? I know anyone can!
Hi Konrad. I’m not sure I understand what you mean when you say it won’t change much. Unburdening oneself is exactly what helps people to move on. The pragmatics will come later. I would encourage you to tell this blog what you have lost, if you have a mind to. You say, ‘goodbye’ but it seems you are having trouble moving on.
What have you to lose if you unburden yourself here?
Frank 2
Well, I assure you it was not for my benefit that I even posted today but with the the contempt that you clearly have I will say Good Bye then…and a very, very small notion of 30 years you can gather from my previous posts. Anything else you would want to know from me or I would be foolish enough to give you would only be for a ignoble and self serving motive…I’m sure I would get it right back in the face! Anyone else who who appreciates what I had to say, I wish you all the best!
the point is when one of GB dies, is usualy substitute by some other ‘anoited’….does he become ‘genuin anoited’ only once is part off the GB? Genuin ‘anoited’, as for the 1st century, they were the ones bringing attention to specific topics to the GB, the GB they issued decisions as a groupe of ‘anoited’ and elders. To pretend today only GB “anoited’ arre genuine anoited is against the history of true christiandom where, as well teached by JW, anoited though isolated individualy yet they were a body with those before and after them. Mattew 25: 37 sais clear ‘what you do to one of the Christ brothes….you did to Jesus Himself…’ so the role of ‘anoited’ is not only to give food at its time, spiritualy ffeeding is a part off it…yet is clear on the Bible (Mat.25) not to do good to some in the need could be to do it at Jesus Himself It could be hard to identify a true (genuin christian) yet the judgement of God depends on how we deel with such ‘doutble’ anoited. To be part of GB is too easy identify them eventualy but the whole class off Faithull Slave is also made by those we dont see in view since many do or do not reconize.
Does today GB alineate himself to reconize Mat.25:37-45? Then, spiritualy speacking they are also in danger by Jesus judgement.
KtotheRAD
I agree it is all in Gods hands.
Konrad, peace be to you.
Frank 2
Hi JimmyG,
I am not sure that the 2nd baptism question is being replaced again, changing from ‘organization’ to ‘association’. I just went to the one day assembly last Saturday and I paid particular attention to the questions remembering that you had posted something about a change. And this speaker still used the word ‘organization’ not ‘association’. So either he was not up on the latest change … or the speaker at the assembly you went to misspoke.
Either way I agree that the WT writers are ‘wordsmiths’ and I would not be surprise to see the term ‘Governing Body’ gradually replaced with ‘F&DS’
My condolancies to you for having to sit through a circuit assembly, hope you have recovered ok.
I think that once the new change is explained to all the rank and file through the study Watchtower, the gov body will gradually drop that title and just talk about the FADS.
From their point of view that is the perfect senario. They get rid of the secular sounding governing body title and replace it with something that is at least in the bible, even if it has been misapplied. You got to hand it to them, they generally find a way to get out of the mess they get themselves in.
Good work cedars. We appreciate it.
WAITING FOR THE FAITHFUL and DISCRETE SLAVE TO STEP FORWARD
A couple of folk asked for a straight and simple statement of the new understanding published at the AGM.
1) New: The Faithful and Discreet Slave is the Governing Body
Previous – all the anointed as a body
2) New: The “domestics” include the prospective members of the great crowd
Previous – all the anointed as individuals
3) New: The ‘first’ appointment of a “Faithful slave took place in 1919
Previous – it was in the 1st century (apostles etc),
4) New: The ‘slave’ has not yet been ‘appointed over all of the master’s belongings’
Previous – Rutherford and company were appointed over all the belongings in 1919
Points 3) and especially 4) have far-reaching implications. The WTS has built its end-time interpretation based on the PREVIOUS understandings –
The identity of the Faithful Slave was already settled (in 1919)
The Evil Slave was identified, (in 1919)
The events of Revelation 11 – the 42 month work of the Two Witnesses and their death by the Beast from the Abyss had already occurred during the period 1916 – 1919
Bottom line – the entire 1919 ‘explanation’ taught over the past 90 or more years was nothing but an artfully contrived false story, to quote the apostle.
And it still leaves the key question unanswered: in view of everything that took place in the period 1916 to 1942 (the Rutherford era) what basis is there to believe that he, or those who followed him, were worthy of being chosen as ‘faithful’?
Settling that aside, it leave the WTS with the task of rewriting the past 93 years – and trying to keep it all consistent.
“in view of everything that took place in the period 1916 to 1942 (the Rutherford era) what basis is there to believe that he, or those who followed him, were worthy of being chosen as ‘faithful’?”
There is no basis, indeed there is no basis upon which to claim any kind of appointment in 1919. See Don Cameron’s Captives of a Concept see http://captivesofaconcept.com/index_for_site_all.html.
As there is no proveable evidence it is not surprising that the 1919 claim did not feature in WTBS historical video Faith in Action part 1. Also the 1919 claim does not feature in the material JW’s use in their bible studies with prospective converts.
Can anyone explain to me that if the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ have not, to date, been ‘appointed over ALL the belongings,’ why this doesn’t in effect free all who have been disfellowshipped under the old system? The explanation being that if there is no authority from heaven, then how is any judicial decision valid?
Beenmislead: The WTBTS have had decades of experience with drip-feeding ‘new light.’ The new ‘revelations’ are obviously being tried in certain areas of the empire, and if successful, will become holy writ. I’m sure JimmyG didn’t mishear.
Beenmislead: I have the words spoken by the baptism speaker on a recording device and I have listened to it several times. He definitely said ‘association’. Can you confirm whether, at your assembly, the words ‘spirit anointed’ was used in place of ‘spirit directed’? Also. like alan, my sympathies are with you for having to endure a whole day of indoctrination.
JimmyG, this has come up in conversation with one of my contacts, and I too was wondering exactly what the latest changes are, last I heard it was “spirit directed”. If anyone knows I’d appreciate the info.
JimmyG: “Also. like alan, my sympathies are with you for having to endure a whole day of indoctrination.”
How small do they make ipods nowadays?
Frank 2
Stormy: “…last I heard it was “spirit directed”.’
Is there any fundamental difference between, ‘spirit-anointed,’ ‘spirit-directed,’ or ‘spirit-inspired’? They all involve the spirit so isn’t this merely semantic?
Frank 2
Hi Pearl I enjoy your blog, its refreshing to see you use the scriptures in all you post, I do agree that the GB are the evil slave within, as recorded in Matt 24:18-51 shows that the evil slave is thrown out when Christ comes to pay reward to the FDS as well as the evil slave, so for the GB to say that they alone are the FDS then the evil slave must be among them, but they never address that.
11/27/12 When I first came to know Jehovah I bemoaned the fact that he has never really been able to demonstrate what life would be like under his rule. Adam and Eve rejected it, and so have the vast majority of their offspring. And although for about sixteen centuries God had a people for his name—the nation of Israel—yet, Jehovah was unable to point to them as a living example of the superiority of living under his rule, because as a whole and throughout their existence they were no better than the nations who did not know Jehovah. In fact, they often became worse than the nations. And yet, God has been blamed throughout history for the suffering that has come from rejecting his rule and his guidance. How unfair is that?!! Still, he has patiently endured the reproach that has been heaped upon his name! (Isaiah 48:11; Ezek. 39:7; Acts 17:30,31)
Sad to say, the situation is no different today with his people who are bearing his name, for they too have become guilty of bringing reproach on the name Jehovah. Can we honestly point to ourselves, our congregations, and the organization as a whole, as proof that Jehovah’s rule is to be preferred? Do we attract others to the worship of the true God by our conduct? Are we blessed more than the people of the world; or are we not suffering from the same problems as everyone else? The few among God’s people who are truly doing their utmost in listening and obeying Jehovah are persecuted in their own congregations, by their fellow brothers, even by the shepherds who are supposed to protect them. And what accounts for this situation? Because it is man’s rule that is being imposed on them, and that right inside God’s temple; and of course, with the same consequences that we observe in the world which lies “in the power of the wicked one.” (Psalms 146:3,5; John 16:1-4; 1 Cor. 4:8; 1 John 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:3,4, 9)
But, thankfully, we know that this is about to change. Rule by man is about to come to a sudden end! First, Jehovah will remove the self-exalted rulers within his own household; then closely followed by the destruction of the rulers of the entire earth. (Rev. 19:11-14, 19) God’s kingdom is about to be established—the kingdom that Jesus preached and taught us to pray for, of which he is the King. (Matt. 6:10; Luke 4:43,44; 21:29-31) Then, finally, after all these six thousand years of oppressive human rule under the influence of the Devil, mankind will at last experience for their first time the wonderful blessings that come from living under God’s rule. (Rev. 19:6) Our loving heavenly Father will at last be able to demonstrate unhindered his great love for his people, for he promises: “And [I] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” We can have absolute confidence in this promise, for it comes from Jehovah himself, and not from any man or group of men, such as a governing body. “And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says: ‘Write, because these words are faithful and true.” (Rev. 20:6; 21:3-5; Isaiah 65:17-25)
WHAT DOES ACTS 15 ACTUALLY PROVE?
It is the claim of the WT Organization that the Account of Acts 15 establishes that a) there was a governing body, located in Jerusalem; b) that they were appointed to make decisions; c) that James was ‘presiding’ over the proceedings.
However, if we consider Paul’s letters, especially the account in Galatians chapters 1 and 2, there is an entirely alternative reading:
1) There was serious jealousy over Paul’s ministry, and opposition to his ‘freedom’. (to coin a phrase, doubtless some called it a ‘spirit of independence’) Paul refers to the interference of ‘the men from James’, and also to the ‘superfine apostles’. Diagnosis: people seeking prominence, and wanting to control the disciples.
2) It’s interesting that apart from James, none of Jesus’ other ‘fleshly’ family receive any form of recognition. Was James falling prey to the age-old human ‘love of prominence’? I believe that Paul’s words (Galatians 2:4-6) indicate that this was the case.
3) Is Acts 15:19 proof that James had authority to act as chairman? No. On the contrary, this can be read as James’ personal statement that he now accepts the evidence presented by Peter, Paul and Barnabas, and his undertaking to abide by it. (I think he also realizes that he has met his match in Paul, a man who was not to be cowed, not even for a moment.)
4) Did they reach a decision? No. The actual ‘decision’ had been made long before, by God. Read Acts 10. What Acts 15 actually establishes is that certain men right there in the Jerusalem congregation were blocking God’s Will. And it records the failure of the apostles to fully understand what God wanted, or to take decisive action to control people seeking prominence.
Returning to Paul’s account in Galatians, he next writes:
‘However, when Cephas comes to Antioch, I resisted him face to face (for playing the hypocrite). For, before the arrival of CERTAIN MEN FROM JAMES, he used to eat with people of the nations, but, then they arrived, he went separating himself’. (Galatians 2:11)
5) If the account in Galatians is chronological, then the problem with James (and the Judaizers) was NOT over. The effect was so negative that Paul felt compelled to resort to direct confrontation.
6) The rest of the Book of Galatians then becomes very illuminating. On the one hand, there is the freedom that comes through Jesus Christ. On the other hand, they can again become enslaved into following humans, via an organizational structure.
Conclusion: Just as one cannot slave for God AND for riches, one cannot follow Jesus AND a human organization. Paul knew this. That’s why he wrote: ‘the Jerusalem ABOVE is our mother, and we are free.’
Interestingly, CT Russell also understood this. Is this an additional reason for wanting to relegate his activity into obscurity?
Was there a Governing Body in Jerusalem?
The Society claims that there existed a governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and older men who exercised authority over all the congregations throughout the Roman Empire. As evidence they like to refer to what happened when the matter of circumcision became an issue for the Gentile Christians and the apostles and older men ruled on the matter with the help of the holy spirit. This is what Insight on the Scriptures says on this:
“Organization of the Christian Congregation. While Christian congregations of God were established in various places, they did not function independently of one another. Instead, they all recognized the authority of the Christian governing body at Jerusalem. This governing body was comprised of the apostles and older men of the Jerusalem congregation, there being no rival bodies elsewhere seeking to supervise the congregation. It was to the faithful Christian governing body of the first century C.E. that the issue of circumcision was submitted for consideration. When the governing body made its decision, as directed by the holy spirit, that decision was accepted and became binding upon all Christian congregations, these willingly submitting to it.—Ac 15:22-31.” —it-1 pp. 498-499 Congregation
Was the matter of circumcision taken to Jerusalem because there was a “governing body” there? The apostle Paul and Barnabas had been appointed to preach to the nations, not by any governing body in Jerusalem, but directly by holy spirit. (Acts 13:2-4) Jehovah had been blessing their preaching work among the Gentiles so that many congregations were being formed. Now a problem arose. What does the account in Acts tell us?
1 And certain men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Barnabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.
3 Accordingly, after being conducted partway by the congregation, these men continued on their way through both Phoenicia and Samaria, relating in detail the conversion of people of the nations, and they were causing great joy to all the brothers. 4 On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them. 5 Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.” —Acts 15:1-5.
Notice where the problem originated! Certain men from Judea, the Jerusalem congregation, were visiting the Gentile brothers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia, causing them and the apostle Paul and Barnabas much trouble by insisting that they, people of the nations, needed to be circumcised and observe the law of Moses. As the apostles and older men acknowledged, “some from among us have caused you trouble with speeches, trying to subvert your souls, although we did not give them any instructions.” (Acts 15:23,24) The problem needed to be dealt with at the source. If there was a governing body in Jerusalem then they were part of the problem.
Jehovah had provided clear evidence by “the many signs and portents” that he did through Paul and Barnabas among people of the nations, that he was accepting them with no need for circumcision or observing the law of Moses. Because of relating their experiences, and the testimony of Peter and James, the holy spirit enabled them to come to a unanimous decision. This decision was then sent to all the congregations that had been affected by the trouble makers. There is no evidence here of a governing body that supervised all the congregations. The account in Acts simply states that a problem arose in Jerusalem that was exported to the brothers in other areas and it was handled by those where the problem originated, as it should be.
It is noteworthy that the apostle Peter (Cephas) and James (Jesus’ half brother) were instrumental in being used to settle the circumcision issue. Perhaps the holy spirit chose those two men because it seems that they may well have been part of the problem. This is evident in what Paul wrote in his letter to the Galatians.
11 However, when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him face to face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before the arrival of certain men from James, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he went withdrawing and separating himself, in fear of those of the circumcised class. 13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Barnabas was led along with them in their pretense.” —Galatians 2:11-14.
Paul had to severely criticize Peter before all the brothers “because he stood condemned” for his hypocritical attitude toward the uncircumcised people of the nations, which was affecting the other brothers in Antioch, including Paul’s companion Barnabas. Peter himself was influenced in this by the men from James. And this even after the circumcision issue had been settled. Yes, even after Jehovah had sent Peter to the uncircumcised army officer of the Italian band, Cornelius years earlier, and he saw the holy spirit fall upon him and those with him, he still had a problem in having God’s view on matters. (Acts chapter 10) Because of Peter’s influence “[the brothers] were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news.” He had become a danger of corrupting the brothers and was causing division. To Peter’s credit, he allowed himself to be corrected.
There is no evidence at all to suggest that any of the apostles or older men in the Jerusalem congregation, as a governing body, supervised any other congregations outside their district. If anything, they sometimes contributed to the problems of the brothers in other areas when they meddled in their affairs. And there certainly is no evidence that Jesus ever acknowledged a governing body. He himself appointed Saul to become the apostle Paul, and he dealt with each individual congregation also personally, such as when he wrote his letters to the seven congregations in Asia Minor. (Acts 9:3-19; Rev. 1:10,11; 2:1-3:22)
A technical point regarding the WT’s ‘new light’- if the F&DS were appointed over the ‘belongings’ only since 1919,then there was no F&DS in the 1st century. Correct? Also now we are being told that the Governing Body IS the F&DS. Therefore, how could there have been a GB in existence in the 1st century (as the F&DS didn’t exist then), using that logic?
I think you are right Jimmy. I had thought of that myself the other day. We will have to see what they say about it when it eventually comes out in the Watchtower. As has been said, they sort one problem out and it then gives them other problems to deal with. It’s like they are in quicksand. They start to get out of it, then get sucked down further, they try again, but again they sink. Hopefully it wont be too long before they go completely under.
Sorry, getting mixed up with the terms- substitute ‘belongings’ in my previous post with ‘domestics’.
JimmyG:
I did not record it … but I did pay particular attention to the questions. He definitely said ‘spirit directed organization’. But like I said He was probably informed yet of the newest questions. And thanks for the sympathy!! Like you my wife is a devout JW so I only went to support Her. I am currently in stealth mode.
Beenmislead: I have just listened to the recording again and the words ‘spirit anointed association’ are spoken clearly. Frank 2 makes mention of semantics. There may well be no real difference between ‘anointed’ and ‘directed’, but the use of ‘anointed’, I believe, gives the IMPRESSION to devout JWs of the GB being ‘inspired’. If questioned, the GB would deny it of course, but don’t mind the indoctrinated majority believing it, as it gives them POWER over them. Many actually believe that WT literature is written by Jehovah!
Later on at that same assembly day, there was a talk that included the praising of the GB- how they feed us, we need them to explain the bible for us, we don’t know who they are yet they are working on our behalf……… Listening to it made me feel like puking.
Whenever I am at meetings, assemblies etc, I am ‘wired’ for all eventualities. That’s how I got the recording in the first place.
And as their interpretation of prophecies, which at first brought excitement and motivated zeal, went unfulfilled and turned to disappointment, God’s people would start to wonder and question the authority of those who had assumed it. In turn, those being challenged would find it necessary to become ever more authoritarian, “subduing according to their powers.” (Jer. 5:31) Yes, Jehovah foreknew all this. Wickedness within the congregations would take a back seat to the importance of being loyal to the self-appointed “faithful and discreet slave.” In other words, as long as a person loyally supported the arrangements, as put in place by this slave, he would prosper within the congregation, even though he might be given to a lot of wine, a slanderer, disorderly, unsociable, haughty, not qualified to teach, a smiter, unreasonable, belligerent, a lover of money, greedy for dishonest gain, poor example in presiding over his own family, etc. etc. (1 Tim. 3:2-10)
Some congregations may have more than their share of these types of individuals who are taking the lead among them. They would not hesitate to beat their fellow slaves, even expelling anyone who would dare question the arrangement and the teachings of the “faithful and discreet slave.” But the master will settle accounts with them, upon his sudden and unexpected arrival, while finding them in the act of beating his slaves, precious members of his household. (Matt. 24:44,48-51)
It never fails to amaze, how in print, the Watchtower can go out on a limb regarding what they have called important dates. 1874
the second coming of Jesus. 1914 the end, backed up with evidence inside the Great Pyramid. For 40 years preaching to the world using these dates in books like Studies in the Scriptures.
When these dates failed to be realized. Setting the “new light” date of 1925, still preaching Jesus second coming in 1874 with the end now 1925. This date preached to the world, also failed to come true.
1975, 1994 …… After all these failures, now the Watchtower rewrites history about 1919….. How many lives have been lost spiritually?….. As they go back and rewrite history, how many lives were lost spiritually at 1914…. with failed expectations?…. Also 1925,….. how many lives lost spiritually?…. Then 1975… and 1994 when these dates failed to realize their expectations,… how many lives were lost spiritually? …………………………….
To walk back to 1919 and rewrite history is no happy journey,… a great crowd,…. fed misleading and wrong information,… stumbled by what was printed by the Watchtower. How can they say,… they are the “Faithful and Discreet Slave”. Hollow words when lined up with their history. A faithful,.. slave is careful not to run ahead of his Master!
JimmyG, yes, you hit the nail here. This means an obvious contradiction with the WTS’s claim that they are not infallible. This is the ‘get out of jail free card’ they use when things go awry. The FACT is that if one claims to have the TRUTH, then one must be ready to answer some pretty difficult questions. “What is truth?” as Pilate put it.
Which Old Testament prophet ever made a prophecy that never came true? When the first century congregation was anointed at Pentacost, what uninspired Scripture did they write?
To make the claim of being spirit-anointed in 1919 is an extraordinary claim. Can anyone please tell me if they have ever read about the miracle that accompanied that claim?
As to inspiration, who inspired the 9 previous years of Watchtowers and Awakes that focused on the “End” coming in 1975? And that’s 9 whole years!
What are we to make out of the account of Fred Franz pointing a bony finger at a convention crowd and telling them: “The reason why the end didn’t come was that YOU expected it!”?
It was Franz’s chronology and writings that caused the expectation in the first place!
Perhaps we should all take his advice and have zero expectations of the latest revelations.
Frank 2
The Disclaimer – How Lies Can Masquerade as Truth
Read the full text at:
http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur
and have a laugh.
You might also want to look back at the strips of the previous couple of days
Wiley Miller has a very good handle on how this whole “religion” thing works. And have a great day, guys
some fun great editing… Lets dance
cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=ab9i0s4WEY0&feature=related
So they’ve copied the Catholic Churches teaching with the Pope , when he sits ” ex Cathedra” he is infallible and Gods channel of communication
..so in essence when they sit in council as a collective they are the FDS or Gods channel ..What a con job!
So I am interested in reading
Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz so I go onto Amazon.com and find out it is selling for an outrageous price!! $900 for brand new!! and starting at $99.95 for used!!!
Does anybody know why? Just wondering since I would really like to read this book.
I’m going to try to find it at my local library.
Here’s a link to amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-Raymond-Franz/dp/0914675249/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354154704&sr=1-1&keywords=raymond+franz
Go to Amazon and under Cindy Franz you can get the book for under $30.00. I don’t know why it doesn’t come up but I have bought 5 copies from her. I don’t understand who in the world thinks someone will pay $900 for a $30.00 book.
MsD: go to the jwstruggle website and you can read both of Franz’ books online or download them
MsD – Here is a link where you can read Crisis of Conscience online or download it for a small fee.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23306656/Crisis-of-Conscience
Cedars
Yes … At the one day assembly I went to the visiting speaker from bethel also sang the praises of the GB saying how ‘we need the faithful slave’. It made me cringe in my seat !!!
Thank you so much for the info guys. Looking forward to reading it!
Thanks Cedars for the Crisis of Conscience link!
Is there any significance to the jwdotorg site’s news section keeping the term faithful and discreet slave inside quotation marks? Is this slave group now a powerful “concept” of authority without actual answerable individuals? There was no FDS authority when the FDS was comprised of the entire anointed remnant. No teeth. The GB were its teeth. Mabe quoting Jesus is designed to constantly remind WTS members of a concept of authority. A type of sovereignty, a WTS right to rule over members, a deeper grip in mind control.
Hi William. I once saw quotation marks around a WT publication’s calling the UN the “the disgusting thing that causes desolation.” This was right in the period when the WTS belonged to the UN as an NGO. No marks for guessing why quotation marks were used here. Oh, and it probably answers your question. Yes, I agree, when it comes to the responsibility that comes with ultimate earthly authority, the GB show themselves lacking.
Take using “Jehovah’s Witnesses” as a rhetorical human shield when appealing the Conti child abuse case. The same has happened with the box in the January Watchtower that excuses serial attempts to predict the End. Again “Jehovah’s Witnesses” are responsible for the false predictions.
Frank 2
The Truth Agenda is predictable patterns in psychology in which they use to satisfy all levels of members. The low level spiritual food eaters need the basics reinforced often to feel satisfied and content. The thinkers need complex theories and equations that baffle other members but keep these ones happy nibbling on. The doers want action and goals to attain. They love interaction and socializing with others to keep them motivated and engaged through activities such as field ministry, talks or group gathering outside the local Kingdom Halls. They embrace a variety of cultures in order to further give the members a feeling of unification globally. The unified doctrine which all share further reinforces to all members they share something in common. These are just a handful of tactics they have used in order to keep members engaged. The members are the core and by giving a new publication or a new talk by a representative from headquarters always gets them excited for what is to come next. The headquarters uses anticipation as a key ingredient for their members. I was always anticipating new publications or viewing the new dramas at the assemblies. I love all of it and would do it all over again but for me the change in doctrine made me realize i personally was going another path and for me that was somewhere else. I am not here to rant or rave about doctrine or persuade anyone towards any ways of thinking. I support Cedar when he allows us an outlet to share with one another. If this organization reformed and embraced an honest and clear doctrine that was unchanging over the years that was not outdated regularly, I would rejoin again but I always have hope that one day things change. I understand mistakes are made and we all fall short so if the GB reads this comment I forgive you but does Jehovah is the question?
There must be repentance before forgiveness. Note Jesus’ words on repentance at Matthew 3:8 and in a concordance on how this word (also ‘repent’ etc) is used. The first words that both Jesus and John said as they began preaching was ‘repent’. Matthew 3:2 and 4:17. Repentance is a gift from God. Some will never repent. Jesus already judged the religious leaders of his generation, because they ‘were none of my sheep’. John 10:26.
This is not my personal view but what the Bible teaches on repentance. So, before any of JW leaders can repent, we need to pray that God would grant repentance to them, to give them ‘eyes to see and ears to hear’. Even among Chrisitans we see the need of repentance as a requesite for our forgiving them. See Luke 17:3 I hope this helps!
Magusknight1974, Yes, the GB of the WTS trades off religious unity against human cost every time. Their application of psychology is not to be argued with. How much they have applied human ‘wisdom’ to date to achieve this ‘unity’ will have to be accounted to the highest authority. Those with greater responsibility will have greater judgement.
Frank 2
Wow, I spat my coffee when I heard about the doctrinal change. Most witnesses in the back of their minds knew that practically the governing body has been the slave for years and this has made it official. What’s concerning is that this seems like a move to consolidate power in the hands of the few.
Where are the checks and balances? Anyone even a long time serving anointed questioning a teaching will be shutdown. Power over so many in the hands of the few within the confines of Brooklyn – decisions by a handful of white American males. I was thinking the organisation will be moving towards a move inclusive system but is getting more and more closed and controlled.
Jesus said the sheep would know his voice, and follow him. So a genuinely faithful slave would humbly serve his master’s interests, lovingly feed the Lord’s sheep with real spiritual food from the master’s table, and be confident that the Master, on returning, would appreciate and recognize the slave’s labors and reward accordingly.
So . . . why is this WT Society slave so pre-occupied about his own interests? With directing attention to himself?
Is he fearful? Conscious that the ‘domestics’, sick and tired of a century and more of ersatz spiritual food, are now realizing that the real food from the master was there all along – in their own bibles.
When the early witnesses met Catholics, they were always quick to make the point that the householder didn’t need help from the priest to understand the Bible. Methinks many of those folk are realizing that the WT Society just replaced the priest – with the Governing Body.
I believe you are so right Frank. The GB and prior Watch Tower teachings would have us believe they were the channel of communication between Heaven and Earth. The Bible was all we needed. Watch Tower led us to believe we couldn’t understand the Bible without their help. Catholicism had many to believe they didn’t need the Bible at all. Both organizations have used mind control to sway its masses through deceit.
We know it is very difficult to penetrate the mindset of a typical Jehovah’s Witness with any insightful information contrary to Watch Tower Society teachings. Therefore, I believe a mission to inform and equip the general population to ask the right questions when approached by members of the Watch Tower Society corporation is necessary. The right questions, posed to the hard core as well as casual members, concerning the meaning of the Governing Body’s latest doctrine changes, may help current Jehovah’s Witnesses think beyond the normal canned reasoning and reach them in a way no ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses ever could.
I made up a list some years ago of questions designed specifically for JW’s. I would suggest using one at a time. Do not bombard them. It’s better they leave with one clear question than to try to cover too much ground. You will go in circles! So, here are some of the questions I use. (And I train members of my church to use these) I titled these “Questions on Salvation” (Scripture to use in parenthesis) What did the death of Jesus Christ accomplish? – 1 Corinthians 15:3 1 John 1:7 How many sins did Jesus die for? (1 John 1:7 Titus 1:14)
What does it mean to be ‘saved’? (Matthew 3:7 Romans 5:9)
Are we saved by our works? (Ephesians 2:8, 9 Titus 3:4-7)
Are we saved by our good works? (Ephesians 2:8, 9 Titus 3:4-7)
Are you saved? (Acts 2:38 Romans 10:17, 20 1 John 2:3-6)
Do we HAVE eternal life NOW if we are saved? (1 John 5:11, 12 John 5:24)
Ask the JW to read the text. Let them answer. Kindly insist that they stay on the text and not ignore it. You can say,’you didn’t answer this question’. Be loving. Don’t argue. Pray silently for the Lord to bless your witness! Ernie
You’re right Ernie about insisting the JW stay on the Bible text and on the question. I’ve asked a question to one of Jehovah’s Witnesses as to whether she wanted my wife to become a member of her organization when I overheard the signs of recruitment. The Jehovah’s Witness’es response was, “let me ask you a question”. I asked her why does she make the of knowing the name Jehovah so important. She responded with a question, “What can be more important than knowing God’s name is Jehovah”. I said “Jesus ransom sacrifice”. I continued, “I called on the name of Jesus the other day when I felt chest pains and I got relief without saying Jehovah”. The JW asked me if mabe I thought it could be a “coincidence?” I let her know I didn’t think so and I believe Jesus as well as Jehovah is powerful enough to acknowledge my cry for help.
Please be aware the Witnesses are tpically programmed to ask a question when asked a question.
Also, one of the most difficult things for me to overcome as a new ex-Jehovah’s Witness in 2005 was independent research of the Watch Tower Society corporation. I would get this uneasy feeling while surfing the internet. This uneasyness was due to the intense mind control associated with dependence upon and trust in the Watch Tower Society corporation. The Society’s recommendation to “beware of independent thinking” had taken a tremendous toll on me.
William I too reacted the same way, when I left. I really felt that I should not read anything against the Watchtower. It took me ages to get the courage to read ‘ Crisis of Conscience’ by Ray Franz.
Once I had taken the plunge, I was then able to move on with my life, but as you say, it really shows the mind control they have over their members.
Hello William. As an older man you are aware of the lessons of the Nuremberg Trials, after 1945. The defense of some was, “I was just following orders”. This proved to be no defense, because each person has a conscience. As Alan mentioned even one of the Governing Body, Ray Franz. Had to let his Bible trained conscience be his guide in his service of his heavenly Father, and his Lord Jesus Christ.
A word about independent thinking. The dictionary says, not subject to bias or influence. In other words when a Christian is trained to stand on his own two feet, he knows his Master well. And can identify a course that is leading away from his Masters instructions. So what is he to do but follow his Master, as the early Christians said, they must obey God, rather than man. When the two conflict.
It is difficult for the Watchtower Governing Body to understand how people can not bend the knee to error, it appears they require blind obedience, not independent thinking. The problem is the Governing Body need to go back over their history and take off the rose colored glasses, and understand the damage they have done to thousands of people spiritually who have left because of false dates etc. When something is wrong, common sense tells us all, it is time to leave. In fact the scriptures tell us to leave if we do not wont to be part of the wrong. The Nuremberg trials are an example of this.
The scriptures tell us to draw close to God, and he will draw close to you. What more do we need! Jesus assures us our heavenly Fathers knows what we need before we ask him, and he provides whatever that is. We never walk alone. Personally I have more interest in my fellowman now and interchange with him or her with more fellow feeling. Throw the report card out the window. [ Let your left hand not know, what your right hand is doing.] Our heavenly Father reads our hearts, and rewards accordingly.
All the best with your endeavours William.
Hi William,
Deciding to do independent research must have been the toughest hurdle you and many others have faced. At least now you can begin to move on, and hopefully you’ll one day be able to help others do the same. It’s the fact that they always “recommend” these control methods that disturbs me most, because forcing someone to do something usually results in them not wanting to do it, but if they “recommend” it, then a person is far more likely to obey and irrational fear of thinking independently will take hold over time. Very subtle mind control indeed. It really is a steep learning curve and a gradual process, but it sounds to me like you’re going the right way about it, and you have the support of millions worldwide. Keep up the good work!
Kind regards,
DB
Cedars, would you mind my posting the link to Robert King’s analysis of the new Watch Tower/Governing Body doctrine change?
Hi William, sorry for the delay in replying. Thanks for asking.
I’d rather not post a link if you don’t mind. After having a quick glance at his articles, Robert seems to think Christ’s words about the faithful and discreet slave are more than just a parable. I’m concerned that if any Witnesses were to read his analysis, they might just end up even more confused. If I’m wrong in that conclusion, please let me know.
Cedars
FrankNo December 16, 2012 at 11:14 pm
“Hi LonelySheep. What I’m about to say should be the final nail in the coffin for 1914 on the Gregorian Calendar for the end of the Gentile Times.
For me, the paradox lay in the knowledge that 907,200 days IS the actual time that had gone by since 607 CE (the date peculiar to the WTBTS for the Fall of Jerusalem). By this equation this is a fact about the TIME that has passed. Here’s where the sleight-of-hand comes in:
When your elder tells you that the 2520 years are up in “1913/1914,” the information is misleading. What the hearer assumes is that this is a Gregorian calendar year(s). What you’re hearing actually is one thousand nine hundred and fourteen LUNAR YEARS that have passed since 607 CE.
When the equation is expressed in a WTBTS publication it is always written as a GREGORIAN solar equation. To accept this equation we are obliged to add 5.25 days per year to make the conversion. Obviously, we can’t do this if we are to accept the TIME COVERED as being in lunar years (360 days – a universally-accepted average to express the differing cycles of the moon lunar Jewish lunar year).
Therefore 2520 lunar years DID NOT come out at 1914 on the Gregorian calendar. Based on this religious equation the ‘end of the Gentile Times’ came in 1878 CE on the GREGORIAN calendar. It is therefore misleading to switch calendars for the outcome of this prophecy.
FV”
From: http://thegoverningbody.org/1975-happened-in-1889-do-the-math/
Frank, I think you meant to say, “What you’re hearing actually is two thousand five hundred and twenty LUNAR YEARS (not 1914 lunar years) that have passed since 607 BCE (not CE).
Correction understood, JimmyG. What’s hard to understand is why so few are getting the potential ramifications of this realisation. We now know not only that the prophetic books have been cooked (as if we hadn’t guessed already), but also what the power of indoctrination feels like. We see what we have been taught to see, like a magician’s illusion.
With the End of the Gentile Times concluding in 1878 CE (according to the long-standing equation) where does this now leave 1919 CE? Russell was only going to print the first edition of the Watchtower in 1879!
We’ve been had.
FV
That point is so true Frank. I still can’t believe that I never saw it at the time when I was a witness. I would really like to know how any JW can answer this point. You either use lunar days for both calculations or solar. You cannot mix both, just to suit your beliefs.
Hi Alan. If you are the Alan who comments on thegoverningbody.org you will be aware that I wrote 2 articles challenging the WTS’s chronology both on 1914 CE and 1975 CE using the correct equation regarding lunar-day years.
I am so glad Lonelysheep asked his/her elder about my calculations as it raised another mighty aspect of organised religion. Here’s a partial copy-and-paste:
“(1) If you count the days from 607 to year 1 we get 218,520 days. (607 x 360)
(2) Take this figure from the total number of days (907,200) we have remaining 688,680
(3) Now divide the sum from calculation 2 by 360 (ie 688,680) and that brings us to 1913 or 1914 accounting for no year 0
So based on this, the Societies (WTS’s) figures are correct!!!!!”
http://thegoverningbody.org/1975-happened-in-1889-do-the-math/
The one absolute thing here is that 907,200 days equals 2520 x 360 days. This is the TRUE length of the Gentile Times (based on WTS’s own equation). It is simply impossible for it to end at 1914 on the Gregorian Calendar (the one in current use in the West). The time runs out in 1878 CE.
Lonelysheep’s experience teaches how we’ve all been had. It is a triumph of indoctrination that when an elder tells us that from 1 CE to 1914 CE is 1914 and we naturally take the latter to be an actual Gregorian solar date, not 1,914 360-day lunar years! Without thinking, the hearer falls into the trap of ‘distraction,’ meaning that 1914 CE though constant repetition is ingrained in us so that we salivate when ‘the master’ ‘rings the bell’ (Pavlov’s dog). I doubt even the elder had clicked on to this.
What I would like to recommend, if Cedars is agreeable, for him to set up a new article on this subject and allow all who are loyal to this chronology to vent and support why they will remain in supporting the mythologised year of 1914 CE.
Thanks Alan
FV (Frank 2)
These are interesting points being made and worth looking into.
The book of Daniel refers to the seven times, or gentile times.
Using a day for a year. [Book of Numbers] The lunar Jewish year being 360 days X 7 = 2520 years.
If we begin this time period starting 607 BCE we arrive at 1914 in Jewish lunar years. Which is not 1914 using the Gregorian calender because of more days, 365 to one year.[ not 360]
Gregorian calender 365 days X 2520 = 919800 days
Jewish calender 360 days X 2520 = 907200 days
-_____________
We have a difference of……………….. 12600 days in the Gregorian calender. By dividing 360 into 12600 we have 35 more
Jewish years. From 1914 less 35 = 1879.
These figures will be different when taking into account the Lunar calender being consistent from start to finish, 2520 years calculated.
The Julian solar Calender started in 45 BC.
The Gregorian solar calender started in 1582 CE by Pope
Gregory X111 .
So the above figures will alter depending when Lunar and Solar years are intermingled over history. However this is well worth looking into because of the fact a Lunar Jewish calculation is not the same as a Solar Gregorian calculation.
The Scriptures refer to the Lunar calculation.
Of course, then there is the lunisolar calendar. I know nothing of this yet. Could this account for the 36.2 Gregorian solar years between 1878 CE and 1914 CE?
The purpose seemed to be the reconcile the lunar calendar with the solar calendar.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
FV
Hi Willows. Don’t forget to minus 1 year to acknowledge no year zero in the Roman calendar.
FV
When calculating the numbers from say 607 to 1914, it adds up to 2521 years. However today we are in the year 2012 yet the year is not complete till the end of December. To say it as it is, would be 2011 and so many days. Likewise 607 would be 606 and so many days [in the year of 607] plus 2520 comes to 1914 and so many days. Depending on which day you start and finish. Using the Lunar calculations brings us to not 1914 in the Gregorian calender but in the year of 1879. Or 1878 and so many days. That’s the way I work it out.
The Watchtower need to enter the debate and explain how they started out with Lunar years and finished in Solar years. When the calculations began in scripture it was given in Jewish time Lunar. They just may have to go back and agree with Russell’s earlier work. That makes 1919 a problem to explain.
Hi Frank, yes I am the same Alan or comments on the gov body articles. I also comment on JWN, JWrecovery, and the Topix JW forum. Since leaving the org, 16 years ago I have found out so much, that I had no idea about as a JW. So the 607BCE subject is so important for JWs to understand properly.
The big, big problem all ex witnesses have is to be able to get this information accepted by a witness. The mind control is so great, that the moment we show anything different to what they have been taught, the shutters immediately go down.
Over the years I have learnt to take it very slowly when talking to a witness, but it is so hard when we know that the vast majority of what they have been taught is totally false.
All we can do is exactly what Cedars and others are doing, dealing with one subject at a time, and making it clear as crystal to anyone reading the article.
A little browsing on the internet shows that far too many people have attempted to forecast all sorts of events, based on calculations using texts drawn from the Bible. Naturally the books of Revelation and Daniel attract the most interest. And no-one has ever got anything right. God has a great sense of humor! Can’t you hear Him laughing?
As one forthright woman told the hapless publisher who tried to “explain” the WT interpretations to her: “Lady – this is a joke – you need to get a life.”
The whole process reminds me of people who don’t understand accounting, but have to solve an accounting problem. So they are reduced to “trial and error” methods, hoping to “get lucky”. All they demonstrate is their total lack of qualifications. And that they are NOT the people to trust with your finances.
Come to think of it, the whole relevance of 1914 is as a starting point of the “generation” of Luke 21:32. So – let’s consider the word Generation.
The basic meaning is that ‘generation’ describes the people WHO ARE ALIVE at a particular time period, and thereby share common experiences.
So, although I knew my grandfather and listened to him talk about his experiences in the trenches during the Great War, I am very clearly NOT of my grandfather’s generation. Nor am I part of my uncle’s generation (he fought in the Second World War). And – frankly, ANY OTHER INTERPRETATION IS SIMPLY DISHONEST – playing with words to prove a point, but in so doing altering the very meaning of the word itself. The WT ‘explanation’ of ‘overlapping’ generations is simply twisted reasoning at its worst – and, coming on top of all their so very cocksure previous ‘explanations’ and calculations (remember 1914 + 1 generation = 1975) it simply makes a laughing-stock of the whole business. But, then, desperate people resort to desperate doings.
So, as this year we call 2012 draws to a close – the WTS can calculate and recalculate as much as they like – but the fact remains – the GENERATION OF 1914 HAS PASSED AWAY.
Notice, in passing, Jesus did NOT say that one or two dozen extremely long-lived members of the ‘generation’ would still be alive – his words can only have one meaning – the generation – the group as a whole – would still be alive. As in the 1st century – the majority of the people alive at the time of his death were still around to see the end of Jerusalem in 70CE.
PS: at one time there were rumours that the WTS were going to shift attention to 1935 as the ‘starting point’ for the ‘generation’ – in effect buying themselves an extra 21 years. Yes – that’s how insecure the whole thing is. They just don’t really know.
Blind guides, stumbling round in the dark.
When the Jews were is exile in Babylon. How did Daniel work out how years they would be away from their homeland. [Remember the Lamentations, " by the river Babylon. "]
The book of Daniel Chapter 9 verses 1 & 2, says, “In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”
The Jews by Moses entered into a binding agreement of the blessing and the malediction. They would obey the commandments and receive a blessing. If they disobeyed they would receive the malediction. Part of the Law was to keep the sabbath, a day of rest. Work six days, rest on the seventh. The land also was required rest every seventh year. No crops grown.
Reading the history of the Kings of Israel, they rebelled against the commandments and a day of reconciliation came, the malediction. The Israelites were removed from the land of Israel
so the land could have its sabbath. Daniel had worked out the number of years being seventy. And true to the day they were released from captivity in Babylon seventy years after they were removed from Israel.
What this shows is Daniel was able to work out the number of years they would be away from their homeland by examining the records.
When the Gentle times are calculated, a lesson in history tells us to calculate according to the formula given in Scripture. When it gives lunar calculations, do not allow solar calculations into the equation. The Watchtower need to explain how they arrived at the solar year of 1914 as the end of the Gentiles. Considering a solar year has 365 days and a lunar year has 360 days.
Frank, this is so obvious to us now, and any thinking person, and yet we spent years taking in that rubbish. It was the final straw for me when we went through the Revelation book and they decided that the 7 plagues somehow had to do with exposing every part of society as something bad. And this simply because they had a particular assembly at a particular time.
In is total mind control.
I enjoyed reading this blog….all the comments back and forth were entertaining and very informative….my wife is a jw and im a follower of the Almighty God…i dont belong to a religion or want to be classified in a religion…When Jesus was on this earth did he promote a religion??? Of course the answer is no…When you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior it is not a religion but a way of life…I have been married to my wife for 5 years and now and all i hear is when will i come into the Truth?? Well according to John 14:6 it says “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me”…Jesus Christ is the only Truth that i know…not a religion or organization…I have tried with failed attempts to try and persuade my wife that she is being lied to but at this point i know prayer is the only way….and God working thru me of course guided by the Holy Spirit….I hope that the ones coming to this site that have left the JW organization will find peace and be able to truly see what this life is all about….Our job as believers and followers are to speak about the Kingdom of God…thats what Jesus spoke about…not what religion you should be with….God Bless
StrongIsland34, it is interesting you mention you feel that your wife is being lied to.
Last year I brought the matter of prophecy up with Internet blogger Standfirm.
He stuck with the view that the WTS were not ‘prophets.’ I pointed out that their own view of themselves is irrelevant.
Encarta Online Dictionary:prophet, says:
1 somebody who claims to interpret or transmit the commands of a deity
2 somebody who predicts the future
3 somebody who advocates a cause or idea
4 somebody considered to be an inspired leader or teacher
One of Standfirm’s cronies replied to this (self-titled aservantofjehovah) in part had this to answer about the serial ongoing attempts at predicting the future of the world:
“Nothing is wrong with making mistakes(;) not learning from them is the problem(.) Of course lies should have no part in true worship.Take for example this oft repeated lie by opposers that GB ever claimed prophetic insight.” Punctuation added.
http://stayawake-standfirm.blogspot.co.nz/2011/09/mistakes-and-errors-what-of-it.html
Yes, it’s true that it can be claimed that the GB never claimed prophetic insight – so why did they engage so regularly in this activity?
Having failed every time to date to show they actually had insight, what proof is there that they therefore have authority from God? Did any of the Biblical prophets attempts ever fail to come true?
ASOJ’s comment, naturally, falls flat on its face. The WTS never did learn from their mistakes. If the 36 year difference between 1878 CE and 1914 CE cannot be reconciled, their knowing this is a mismatch could be reasonably construed as an ongoing lie, couldn’t it?
The site’s owner Standfirm shows how misled JWs can be when he attempted to reconcile the two dates”
“StandFirmNovember 7, 2011 10:01 PM
FV,
The vast majority of people worldwide use the Gregorian calendar and it is used by the United Nations. But regardless, the same point in actual history can be reached in any calendar by counting 2,520 years from the year Jerusalem was destroyed, no matter how those two years are expressed.
The reason further discussion is not permitted on this point here is because this has nothing to do with the point of the main post. If you’ll recall, that is if mistakes made by the organization preclude their being the true Christian congregation.”
This latter paragraph surprised me as the subject was the WTS’s mistakes!
I answered:”AnonymousNovember 8, 2011 12:50 AM
What could you possibly mean, Standfirm? You’re claiming that the Watchtower Society makes mistakes – and so what! The fact 1914 has been RE-calculated using a SECOND calendar is evidence that a ‘mistake’ was not made!”
Unlike my critics, I remain open-minded that a reconciliation might come. Feel free to readjust my thinking, asoj or Standfirm.
FV (Frank 2)
Thanks Cedars. I appreciate the feedback on my request. Your reasoning makes sense.
well when i said being lied to it stems from what the God’s word says about salvation is a gift not given by works lest a man boast….The GB continues to lie and tell its believers that the only way for salvation is to work at it…or to show works to prove that you are saved….when you truly accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior your life will be changed…you will want to do what is right…your actions will portray someone who has changed ….its not a requirement for me to show proof…i will just do….i have this conversation with her all the time but nevers sinks in…
THE BIGGER PICTURE ~ WERE DOCTRINES QUICKLY ‘ADJUSTED’ TO PROTECT FINANCES?
A $3 Billion class action lawsuit is being launched in Australia on behalf of up to 6,160 children within the Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Documents relating to the class action reveal over 14,000 serious criminal breaches of mandatory child protection laws, committed against these children by elders and “ministers of religion” within the Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses over the past 4 years.
On May 12, 2012, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses became aware that a potential class action lawsuit was being pursued in relation to their failure to comply with the working with children laws.
On October 6, 2012, at the Annual Meeting of Jehovah’s Witnesses, held in Jersey City, New Jersey, U.S.A., during the discourse “When Does Jesus Appoint the Slave “Over All His Belongings”?”, it was publicly announced that the worldwide Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses (the slave of Christ) has just undergone a major re-structuring of ‘doctrinal teachings’ and asset ownership, the net result being that the church now claims it no longer has billions of dollars in assets or ‘belongings’ but is, from a legal position, an unincorporated association with no assets whatsoever.
Read more: http://www.stevenunthank.com/
The GB are digusting filth May Jehovah destroy the Watch tower Society of Pensylvannia and all its tentacle like affiliates AMEN
I find it quite funny, that the society have always said, the nations would get together and try to totally elimanate Jehovah’s Witnesses, and that by doing that, they are poking Jehovah’s eye as it were. That attack would be the start of the great tribulation, and Armaggeddon. What they didn’t count on was the fact that the nations are against them for their terrible actions against the rank and file. Like the sex abuse, or the changes in doctrine that have allowed thousands to die in the past because of their totally wrong scriptual misapplications. (Which they now admit were wrong)
Are you all aware that it appears… The Society was preparing well in advance and may even had made arrangements for impending threats on the Watchtower assets? I wouldn’t be surprised if assets are sitting elsewhere (in other non profit shills?) so as to appear as if the Society is in the position to “plead poverty” have a look-see:
http://dc159.4shared.com/doc/gf-AoDRf/preview.html
Also what we all need to remember, is that the society have no problem at all lying or misleading individuals or even courts, if it means protecting their assetts. They simply call it theocratic warfare, where they tell the rank and file that they are in a war with the authorities, so of course they would not tell the enemy everything, just like in a normal war. After all from their point of view, fighting against God’s annointed governing body, is the same as fighting against Jehovah.
Alan,
Conversion of funds to evade litigation and misappropriation of donated Church Funds and tax evasion to avoid paying taxable “For Profit” income (Hedge Funds) of a 501c3 organization and all of those things are very serious crimes and yet no one sees fit to report these things? Even if they are only suspected they should be reported! But there is more than suspicion here, there is tangible evidence.
Totally agree, but the society has a massive track record of misleading people when necessary. I’m not saying they are always acting illegally. They are too expierenced for that. But they know how to work the system. Just like large corporations can get away with paying no tax.
They regularly speak out of both sides of their mouth. That way they can always quote something in the future if necessary. Like when times are difficult in the world, they will say it shows we are in the last days, and when things are good in the world, that shows the end is near, and they quote the peace and security scripture.
They have regularly misquoted evolutionists, scientists and bible translaters and they have been forced to remove the offending words from their publications when they are found out.
Many large ministries such as Jim Bakker and others have been indicted for tax evasion. They are required to at least report the taxable earned income to the IRS and other agencies in the countries respectively whether they have to pay on it or not and there is no evidence that they did that! I don’t get why no one reports these things…Also, they as a 501c3 are not permitted to convert church donated funds to a For Profit scheme such as the Hedge Fund investments and others…They also cannot transfer funds to avoid litigation, these are clear crimes…
I thought this might prove to be of interest.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1087637–audit-of-charities-encounters-resistance
Look at the list under ‘W.’
Try this one too:
http://www.charityintelligence.ca/charity-details/40-watch-tower-bible-and-tract-society-of-canada?view=charity&tmpl=component
Frank,
Thank you for that in Canada and have you all looked right here on this Forum as well? It indicated that the Hedge Fund investing has been going on in England from 2010 to 2012 and we don’t know that it was ever properly reported by them to the authorities but someone at some point did “out” it because it did become public knowledge. It was posted on many Forums for some time. We also don’t know what else, other illicit “investments” have taken place as well.
http://jwsurvey.org/general-information/where-is-the-public-benefit#comments
http://www.hedgefundintelligence.com/Product/13793/Forthcoming-Events/InvestHedge-Forum-2011.html?ElementId=9679
Rutherford’s angels
(extract from web article)
. . . . The next year, 1918, was claimed by Rutherford to be the year when the Holy Spirit was removed from the remnant and angels began teaching them the truth. Did the “light get brighter”? No. This new source of spiritual enlightenment was no better. In was in 1918 that Rutherford began to deliver his lecture, “Millions Now Living Will Never Die” which he believed was the “gospel of the kingdom” that was to be preached to all the world for a witness and then the end was to come – in 1925. Given that Rutherford claimed angels were responsible for everything he published, the Apostle Paul’s words to the churches in Galatia about other gospels from angels are relevant. (Galatians 1:6-9)
Rutherford preached a gospel other than the one Paul preached. Not only that, the “Millions” gospel and prophecy failed. The kingdom was not set-up in 1925 with the resurrection of Abraham and others. Bald heads, false teeth, and other things prophesied to take place in 1925 and shortly thereafter, did not occur. The angels, if responsible for this, were lying spirits by definition.
The Golden Age printed two news items that stated that “demons” had been recently telling the spiritist Conan Doyle that 1925 was to witness events paving the way for the Millennium. They said that demons apparently have advance warning of what is about to happen, thus they apparently believed these particular demons were “honest”. Rutherford said he made an “ass” of himself over the failure of his 1925 prophecy. [19] If his claims were true that the information he published concerning 1925 came from angels, the angels made an “ass” of Rutherford which further identifies the nature of these angels. They are the same or similar to the “demons” the Society said communicated the same message to Conan Doyle through mediums.
Read more:
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/rutherford_spirit_meduim.htm
Readers who can confirm source material, or add further information, please post.
I personally have been aware of ALWAYS being bewildered when I’ve had to read about this stuff! I’ve never really been able to care about it all that much-I do find special things in the bible that have changed my life. But the loyalty I once felt to the org. that helped me get into my bible is so fading…I am returning to my youthful belief that EVERY org. becomes corrupt due to imperfection, so it’s unwise to belong to them. I guess the discreet servant in the bible is like someone who takes good care of their responsibilities. I dunno : )
Hi there Eric, you make some good points, keep on. About the inherent corruption in human organizations – isn’t this just what Jesus said? Maybe look at the letter to the Hebrews from this viewpoint – the jewish christians were infected with the jewish way of thinking. Which was fixated on a visible “organization” – a nation, a temple, literal sacrifices, yada yada. And Paul writes about the men of faith – who simply served God, each one in his own way, in his own time. It’s not about temples, organizations, and all that stuff – but about developing a real, personal relationship with God, through Jesus Christ. Which leaves no place for an “organization”.
Keep reading your Bible. As time passes, I find myself less and less concerned with “end times” prophecy. One doesn’t need a verse by verse “explanation” of Daniel and Revelation to draw close to Jehovah. Especially when one discovers that the “explanation” is wrong, and constantly needs revising and adjusting.
Ever wonder why psalms is the largest book of the Bible, and is quoted by Jesus so frequently?
Kind regards, Frank
I’m sure you are right Erik. I guess many start off with good intensions, but then as the religion grows, it tends to lose the simple message that was so evident in the first century. These days many JWs have no idea what is now old light and what is new light. I guarantee that many don’t have a clue about all the changes that have been happening in the org.
In fact it’s true to say that ex witnesses generally know a lot more about the current state of the org many of the the rank and file.
I too am angry and bitter at over 30 yrs of waste, my mother and most of my family are still involved. The only reason I started researching is because my mother disowned me because I didn’t go to meetings anymore, most of my family are a bunch of hypocrites anyway. Are we not supposed to know these ones by their fruits? according to the “society”. I would love to see them fall to their knees these 8 men so high and mighty…I need to gain a relationship with God and Jesus! This was not taught as it should have been, I intent in gaining a relationship with the
elders (out of fear) and pleasing them and this Society!
Yes I am bitter!!!!!
Shannon I understand your pain. I would not let this bother you as you have freed yourself but at the cost of losing the ones you love. In time this group will pass and fade away so pray for your family and be there for them when they are ready for your love. If we are patient enough we will receive our due reward. By being supportive when the time arises you will prove yourself wise and a True Christian. It is only through our love that we can heal those lost ones. Let go of your pain it will only sour you and this is no help to yourself or them. Love from another fellow ex member.
Shannon, you will find many, many people who truly empathize with your pain. And we understand your anger. I believe that the best way to start healing is to “let all the poison out”. At one point I got so low, I even said some very hard things to both Jehovah and Jesus. And then i realized – they understand how we feel. And they are big enough to handle it, the way a real friend would. After all – if you can’t really talk about how you feel – what sort of relationship is it?
Maybe look at some of the Psalms. David knew what it was like to be an outcast. And see how things worked out for him.
At least you have realized the key point – it’s impossible to have a relationship with an “organization”. Even less so with one that is not honest with us.
And remember – people still trapped in the “organization” react based on fear. They are fed dark, negative, confusing things from the platform, and so they need understanding, and lots of love.
Wishing you peace, Frank
Thanks Frank for the thoughtful comments, I know that the new ones leaving this “dis” organization are all in the same “boat” emotionally. Its better than being in the “ark” the witnesses want you to board. I was wondering is Jehovah even the proper name we use? I just want some sort of new beginning point to start to pray properly. I know that if someone didn’t say my name right I would wonder why they didn’t research or find it out.
Some news from Italy that may interest readers.
Ostracism – harsh practice of systematic abuse
(by Achille AVETA – Italian freelance journalist and author. Translation by Roberto di Stefano)
To fully appreciate the [Watchtower] Movement’s leadership attitude towards its members who factually dissent from the group’s ideology, for which they are subject to disciplinary action, it is sufficient and enlightening to recall the Movement’s official publication . . . which says: “We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel … we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, … The law of the land and God’s law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship.” WT November 15th 1952, p.703-704
[Comment: in other words, this WT plainly admits that if it were NOT for the restraint of the Law of the Land – disfellowshipped people WOULD BE EXECUTED. This thought has been repeated many times verbally, at meetings, conventions and in private conversations.]
. . . . Disfellowshipping (i.e. expulsion) . . . . can be harmful when it is used in the way taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses. In this context, the disfellowshipping disciplinary system . . . appears as an INSTRUMENT OF POWER over its members. Resorting to the threat of ostracism implied by the disfellowshipping provision, to intimidate the members and force them to conform to a behavior in contrast with their own conscience, or exercising pressure so that they accept doctrines which, for reasons of conscience, they regard as contrary to the Bible, is a form of SPIRITUAL EXTORTION, A SPIRITUAL BLACKMAIL.
THE KEEPING OF RECORDS
. . . . Lee Waters, [who worked for the Service Department and the Governing Body offices at Brooklyn] reportedly said “We are probably the only organization keeping such private records even after the death of those concerned.”
It is, therefore, no wonder that the Danish branch of the Movement was found in 1992
by the Danish authorities to have systematically violated the privacy regulations in force in that country, keeping for decades secret archives detailing “crimes” committed by its members.
INVASION OF PRIVACY
A second case in Greece, involves a group who used to meet every Friday at [the house of former Witness] Voula Kalokerinou, to discuss the Bible . . . however, Voula noticed a car with five people on board stationed for several hours in front of his house. The same happened the following night.
[was he being paranoic? The article continues . . . ]
The following Sunday, a number of people gathered at Voula’s house to celebrate the “Lord’s Evening Meal.”
[The account goes on to detail how guests took action to prevent the escape of the people doing the spying, and the spies were arrested by the police. The matter went to court . . .]
In [his] closing speech, the the public prosecutor said “I don’t believe that there is one single Christian organization that teaches its members to lie, [as the defendant and his organization have done]. They have used special video recording equipment and have been caught in fragrante delicto by some eyewitnesses while shooting the video, but they insist that they were not spying . . . All of this does not honor neither the defendants nor the organization they represent.”
“We are all free to associate with the organization of our choice but we are also free to abandon it and to act as it pleases us within the limit of the law … Does the fact that someone leaves and abandons this organization give a person the right to spy on him? The law forbids the use of any recording equipment, from simple sound recorders to video recorders, to poke one’s nose into the life and habits of another person. Our private life can in no way be subject to any type of control, and this is also true for our personal convictions. It is a very serious matter.”
Instead, the defendants have been found using video recording equipment and this, not by chance. The Watchtower [organization], . . . teaching that salvation can be found only by joining it, as God’s channel, creates in its members a state of dependency, which forces them to behave in ways which represent a threat to human rights.”
The court case ended with a guilty verdict
Read complete article:
http://www.testimoni-di-geova.info/spip.php?article124
Hullo Shannon, good to hear from you. In some ways, each day is like a new beginning, and I think you are doing the very best thing by approaching the situation positively. Some suggestions:
First of all, get back to basics. The essential message of the Bible is that God sees and deals with people as individuals. Under the Christian arrangement there is no such thing as “national” or “group” salvation. God rewards each one according to his / her own merits.
That being so, the importance of living with love cannot be over-emphasized. 1 Cor 13: 1 – 13. As you will notice, Paul mentions that “knowledge” without love, is meaningless. Same applies to “works”.
One of the residual problems of any long-term association with the WT Society is that:
1) it has an obsession with knowledge.
2) it has an obsession with itself.
The 1st obsession has got it into all sorts of difficulties – it has never been happy to wait for God to reveal things in His own due time. Hence all the failed predictions.
The 2nd obsession helps one understand why the WT Society reacts so aggressively when its flaws and mistakes are exposed.
I mention these, because they are WT controlled ways of thinking that you will want to break free from. For example, you ask about the pronunciation of God’s Name. In this country alone, there are more than a dozen languages spoken – and each one has its own way of pronouncing “Jehovah”. So – do you think God is overly worried by our pronunciation? Would He not be far more interested in our heart condition?
And, since you indicate you want to draw close to Him – do you think He will break His promise to draw close to YOU?
The second thing you will want to do is really get to know Jesus Christ. For many decades the WT Society was not even considered to be a Christian religion. They brought out the “Greatest Man” book in a belated attempt to change that perception. But – for most witnesses, Jesus is far less real than the Organization. So, maybe think of reading the Gospels. Concentrate on the passages that describe how Jesus treated people. Here are two suggestions to start: Luke 7:36 – 50 and Luke 18: 9 – 14
If you’d like to chat further, you are welcome to email me at streemz (at) gmail (dot) com, rather than clog up Cedar’s website with a personal discussion. All the best, Frank
I am a former JW of more than 20 years. I quietly left the organization (disassociation) because I have witnessed “the organization” taking on a life of it’s own, making claims of itself, teaching what Jesus did not teach, usurping a role that belongs only to Christ, and a host of other things. My departure was not as a disgruntled one, but a concerned one.
The Most High God has NOT appointed a Faithful and Discreet Slave as the time is “not proper.” The “proper time” for this appointment will come at the end of Christs 1000 reign over the earth and Satan is un-Abyssed. (Rev 20:7-8)
No organization of men can make this claim. Too, does it seem reasonable to anyone that Jehovah God – who is impartial – would appoint a Faithful and Discreet Slave consisting of ALL White men? (Samuel Herd is a relatively recent addition). Have we lost all reason? (Acts 10:34-35)
This should awaken sincere disciples of Christ that our attachment is to be to him (the person) and not to humans and human agencies. (John 8:31-32)
It should also prompt us to obey Jehovah God as He has told us exactly who we are to listen to. Yet, many insist on listening to men and organizations. Jehovah has commanded us to listen to His son. (Luke 9:35)
Yet, human and human agency has stepped in between us and The Most High (blocking) and preventing many from listening to the Christ; they instead make men and women listen to them.
Now human agency makes the lofty claim that “it” is The Faithful and Discreet Slave. It is a “self-appointment.” Jehovah did not make this appointment and neither should any who are disciples of Christ listen to this.
Only those in future days who will serve as kings with Christ in his kingdom of 1000 years will receive the appointment as Faithful and Discreet Slaves. Those men will be on earth NOT in heaven. They are of the first resurrection. Christ the King will rule out of heaven, but the 144,000 Faithful and Discreet Slave will be his “visible” representatives on earth administering his kingdom with the authority he will give them.
The time period AFTER that 1000 year kingdom of Christ ends will be that “Proper Time.” That is when we will need to be
There is no Faithful and Discreet Slave Today.
May I remind some of you: You we NOT to be students of “the Bible”, but a students (disciples) of Christ. He is our ONLY Teacher and it is for that reason that we are to listen ONLY to him (not organizations of men). (John 8:31-32; Luke 9:35)
As long as many continue to listen to and follow after men and their organizations, they will continue not to be led in the right direction (a misleading). Listen to the one Jehovah sent as He directed us to, and not listen to human agency and their organizations); Jehovah commanded that we listen to His son.
Response to Jerome Harris comments:
Jerome; I appreciate your thinking, it echoes a number of points brought out in an interesting article about the” freedom” Jesus referred to at Jo 8:32, recently posted by me.
John ben Wilhelm
Excerpt from an article on biblical “FREEDOM” found at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/121016307
When we look at the religious system in place in our day, we see a sharp distinction from the legacy of freedoms Jesus Christ left his congregation of followers. Instead of the simple straight forward principals of faith and love guiding people, based on the truths contained in his father’s word, the Bible, once again we find volumes upon volumes of commentary, conclusions arrived at, and laws and restrictions added by men who claim to represent God when in reality they primarily represent either their own interests or the interests of others than Jehovah, the almighty God.
While the first century congregations were simple assemblies, often consisting of just a few believers who nonetheless had the promised presence of Christ in their midst (Mat. 18:20), today’s congregations (churches) consist of hundreds and often thousands of so called believers who follow whole hierarchies of men placed in positions of power over them. The lessons of ancient Israel where it was shown that a human king was only a concession granted his people to show them the failures of human rule is totally lost on them. Words of Christ to the effect that he was to be their only leader and that salvation could be realized only through him are either ignored or woven into a falsified version that includes placing men between Jesus and his sheep.
Today, this is true to such great extent that religious institutions and their human directors have become objects of worship in themselves. That this by itself constitutes gross idolatry in God’s eyes is lost on their gullible flocks. The means by which all this is accomplished is essentially through a manipulation of truth, resulting in a form of mental slavery, slavery to the wishes of those who assert themselves as saviors over a flock that belongs to Jesus Christ and not to themselves.
There is also an interesting article about governments and institutions under men and what the Bible reallysays about them at ;
http://www.scribd.com/doc/107497870
This is taken directly from the http://www.jw.org website.
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“Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”
Jesus was referring, not to an individual, but to a composite “slave”—a group working together as one body. Jesus said that the slave (1) is appointed to a supervisory role “over [the master’s] domestics” and (2) gives the domestics spiritual “food at the proper time.”
From 1919 on, there has always been a small group of anointed Christians at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have supervised our worldwide preaching work and have been directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. In recent years, that group has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”
What Are Jesus’ “Belongings”?
Jesus said: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18) Jesus’ “belongings” thus include more than just his earthly interests. They include the Messianic Kingdom.—Philippians 2:9-11.
Consequently, Jesus will reward “the faithful and discreet slave” by resurrecting the individual members of that group to heavenly life and by giving them royal authority over all Christ’s belongings in heaven and on earth. This is the same reward promised to all faithful anointed Christians.—Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:6.
http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/
———————————————————
So according to the Governing Body, in 1919, Jesus appointed the Governing Body as the Faithful and Discreet Slave (FDS) and gave them authority over the ‘domestics’ to give them their food at the proper time. According to the “new light,” there have only been about 30 men who have served as part of the FDS since 1919 because this was not an appointment for all anointed Christians, just the small group serving at headquarters.
However, the reward for properly feeding the domestics is that they would be given royal authority over all Christ’s belongings in heaven and on earth. They also say that “this is the same reward promised to all faithful anointed Christians.”
Here are some interesting questions about that new light:
1) But why are all faithful anointed Christians given the reward when only a handful of them serving on the Governing Body actually did the faithful and discreet work?
2) And since the Governing Body does not seek the input of the remaining anointed Christians, and since the remaining anointed ones have no say in what food is served, how can they be included in that promise and be rewarded for doing something they did not and could not do?
3) Why are they rewarded for the work of others?
4) How can anyone be rewarded as a FDS and yet not be one?”
Beenmislead, these are all good questions. Here’s another one- does the WT still teach that a GB existed in the 1st century? The F&DS apparently IS the GB, which was appointed in 1919, nearly 1900 years later.
Regardless of how many times the WT changes it’s view of the fds, it just does not register because of brainwashing. How can it be so difficult to see what is so simple? Only God can change the heart, and there lies the problem: loyalty to an organization beyond reason or Scripture, more than loyalty to Christ. It reminds me of socialistic and communistic tactics. No matter how a communist country fell apart, no matter how much supression there was, people would go on supporting it, and also because you can be killed (disfellowshipped!) otherwise. I also believe that there are those in the leadership of JW’s that secretly know that what is being taught is ludicrous. Again, fear restrains many from saying what they really believe. Sad. May the Lord have mercy on these lost souls!
Good writing. Nice food for thought as they say. Cedars it would be nice if we had a views counter for this just to get an idea of how many are reading this.
I suspect the behaivor and teaching of these delusional men running this corporation is bound to have a exiting effect causeing many to forsake the Cororation, so a view count would be nice to see what is happening in this respect.
A good place to go for discussion with JWs is the Jehovah’s Witness Topix forum. Both sides regularly say their bit and obviously a person can make up their own mind who is right.
Hello everybody,
I’d like to point out that in:
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009443
you can clearly read at the end of the page:
“Today, the Governing Body represents the faithful and discreet slave class. There was a similar arrangement in the first century”
Mr Cedars is stating that now the GB consider himself as the F&DS, but based on w09 6/15 pp. 20-24 I think this statement is false, because in 2009 they were already saying this.
Any critics are welcome.
Regards.