As the threat of a total ban on their activities in Russia looms closer, 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses have been asked by their leaders, the Governing Body, to participate in a letter-writing campaign protesting the infringement of religious freedoms.
A press release posted to JW.org yesterday called for a “direct appeal to Kremlin and Supreme Court officials for relief.”
It was further pointed out that, quite apart from resulting in the seizure of Watchtower property, the proposed ban would make individual Jehovah’s Witnesses “subject to criminal prosecution for merely carrying out their worship activities.”
In a PDF sheet accompanying the press release, Witnesses have been given detailed instructions on how to write their letters, how soon to send them (no later than April 1) and what information to include. Addresses for the likes of Russian President Vladmir Putin and Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev are supplied, along with orders to “not mention the names of individuals in Russia who are Jehovah’s Witnesses” for fear of reprisals.
Not without precedent
As the press release points out, this is not the first time Jehovah’s Witnesses have been mobilized in this way. A letter writing campaign 20 years ago in response to a “smear campaign by some members of the [Russian] government in power at the time” is cited. Correspondence-based protests over persecution of Witnesses in Jordan, Korea and Malawi are also referenced.
One example curiously absent from the JW.org article is that of the 1934 letter-writing campaign urged by then-Watchtower president Joseph Rutherford against Adolf Hitler, which receives mention in the 1993 book Jehovah’s Witnesses – Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom (page 693):
Early the following year [1934], a personal letter regarding the situation was written by J. F. Rutherford to Adolf Hitler and delivered to him by special messenger. Then the entire worldwide brotherhood went into action.
Rutherford’s letter, a follow-up to a letter sent by Watchtower in 1933 aimed at placating the Nazis, threatened Hitler with repercussions in the form of “publication throughout the earth of the facts” regarding his persecution of the Witnesses.
When Rutherford’s deadline passed without any sign of let-up by the Nazis, a flurry of telegrams was sent to Hitler from Witnesses in Britain and America including the warning: “God will destroy you and your national party.”
Fast forward to 2017 and the approach being taken by Rutherford’s successors may be less bombastic and inflammatory, but it is just as unlikely to bring relief to Witnesses in Russia. More likely, Putin’s regime will be angered by the inundation of millions of cookie-cutter messages of indignation unleashed in countless languages, and may even feel emboldened to intensify their actions.
If Hitler’s response to the letter-writing approach was to famously snarl “This brood will be exterminated in Germany!” can we expect someone like Vladmir Putin to react differently?
Don’t get me wrong – though I am personally strongly opposed to the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and firmly believe that some of the Governing Body’s more harmful policies should be given much closer scrutiny by governments (especially shunning, manipulation to refuse blood, and covering up of child abuse on an industrial scale) as an “apostate” former Witness I am against what Russia is doing.
Banning: the wrong strategy
As I have already argued, a ban is the wrong approach to take when dealing with cultic movements. It drives them underground, making it far more difficult to hold their leaders accountable for their more harmful practices.
A ban would also, as JW.org points out, be an infringement of the religious freedoms of individual Witnesses in Russia (per article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). Yes, there may be hypocrisy in the fact that Watchtower routinely violates the religious freedoms of former Witness “apostates” like myself through shunning, but two wrongs do not make a right.
Despite the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world are justified in their indignation against Putin and his thugs, the fact remains that they are being asked for little more than a token gesture of solidarity. A mountain of paper detritus in the Kremlin’s mailroom will do nothing but irk and enrage, making the plight of those most vulnerable to Russian oppression only more precarious.
Protests at Russian embassies by Witnesses would have at least caught the attention of the media, with the prospect of increased external pressure on Putin’s regime, but Jehovah’s Witnesses typically shy away from the slightest whiff of physical confrontation. Hence, Rutherford’s paper-based model of antagonizing maniacal despots is the go-to approach for the current Watchtower leadership.
Whichever way we look at it, the plight of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia is grim and these beleaguered people deserve our sympathy and solidarity. Nobody deserves to be robbed of the right to believe what they want by their own government, no matter how damaging or detrimental those beliefs may be.
It is already bad enough that Russian Witnesses are being taken advantage of by their religious leaders without their government turning on them and threatening to hunt them down like fugitives simply for being cult victims.
We can only hope that, sooner or later, Witnesses in Russia will realise that the organization to which they pledge allegiance just so happens to be completely unworthy of their time, dedication and loyalty.
Hundreds of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Nazi Germany died under the misapprehension that they were championing Jehovah’s “theocracy.” It is my sincere wish that Witnesses in Russia will not similarly be made to suffer before they realise that true paradise comes in the form of the freedom to think for yourself.
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The hypocrisy in this is so loud.
We don’t get involved in the world or its stand on child abuse. We are told to put our trust in Jehovah not the governments.
Then a complete U turn and we get involved with this.
Why are we not trusting in Jehovah on this also.
They are fools who have closed minded people following them. You are not allowed to ask questions. Just do it or you are not working with them and are apostates
@Jp,
When Lot got taken by the bandit group in Genesis 14:12-16, Abraham did not simply sit down and start praying hard. In fact, the verses do not indicate that Abraham prayed at all. Rather, he got together a large group of armed servants, trailed the bandits and saved Lot and the people with him.
And think of Gideon, and the battles of the faithful Jewish kings. One of the few kings who couldn’t do much besides pray was Hezekiah, and in that case great insults had been thrown at the God of the Israelites, so Jehovah sent his angel. Although why Hezekiah didn’t go out and fight and take on the enemy when they overcame Lachish, I don’t understand. In the words of Jonathan the son of King Saul, “Nothing can hinder Jehovah from saving by many or by few.”(1 Sam 14:6) So Jehovah could very well have given Hezekiah a great victory.
Just a few examples to show God helps those who help themselves. Scripturally, the Witnesses could just pray and see Jehovah intervene. Or they could take action and hope Jehovah makes their efforts successful. Both examples are there in the scriptures.
Brilliant Racardo!! I can see it now! Eight million Witnesses all armed with AK47’s descending on Moscow to rescue their imprisoned brothers . That will work, letters are for wimps. I wonder why Jesus didn’t think of that?
Pah!!! “My kingdom is no part of this world!!” What a wimp!
Jp is correct. Double standards. Don’t get involved in politics in anything that might help your neighbors or others that live in your country or area, unless it is a political cause that benefits Watchtower. Then it is ok. For some reason United Nation membership springs to mind! I don’t know why.
@Factsnotfiction,
Ha ha, imagine the old sisters with their missile launchers.
No, that’s not the point I was making. I was saying that whether the JWs just prayed, or if they decide to pray and write letters, both actions are supported by scripture. This time they have decided to pray and write letters. It doesn’t show a lack of faith or even double standards (in my opinion). It’s taking action for Jehovah to bless (in their opinion). I’m not writing letters, but if others want to it is scripturally based.(no letters in the Bible, I mean taking action together with praying for Jehovah’s blessing)
I hope that this major attention Jdubs are getting right now with the whole Russia thing will also bring a spotlight to all their shady crap (mostly the child abuse crap)!!! I am having a really good feeling about this. I believe the GB are also thinking right about now (right after broadcasting their little letter to Russia video) …”hey, I hope jdub folks or the world wide media doesn’t also stumble upon other news stories about us…namely child abuse policy and law suit news!!!” Let’s see what happens!!!!
The irony: fighting for their HUMAN right of religious freedom when they blatantly shun those who once did but no longer believe as they do.. for practicing their human right.
We shun people that don’t follow what we do because we don’t want to be influenced by them.
Saniyah Foster
Probably the WT reason for shunning goes deeper than that. Actually they admit that it does, when they claimed that shunning causes some family members to return to the congregation, while refusing to shun family members works against their return.
Please consider this, where in the Bible does it say to shun family members for that reason? I read the Bible and I never saw it there. If it’s not there the reason is an opinion, not a as biblical directive. Where is any Christian directed in scripture to demand that other Christians follow his opinions. Even the WT admits we are not to teach our opinions much less demand others to follow our opinions. But WT does that.
If you scrutinize WT teachings you’ll realize much of their teachings are hypocritical. Constantly they preach that others are doing the very things wrong that they are doing. Don’t you remember a couple months back in the WT study they claimed other Christian denominations have unchristian class distinctions, a clergy/laity class? It does not take much observation to know JW operate entirely through clergy laity class distinctions.
Carefully examine everything they teach and do, and you might be surprised at what you’ll discover. Trying to prevent you from that sort of examination is probably the main reason WT demands you shun. Its the most logical reason they do it anyway.
Let me ask you, how many debates have you seen on this site about the trinity? hellfire? saluting the flag? joining the military, or other doctrines WT believes differentiates it from “false religion?” I haven’t seen any at all.
Now let me ask two questions about a topic that is often considered here. What Bible scriptures tell a Christian to shun his/her family member? When the direction Paul gave to remove the lawless one, was he referring to removing him from the congregation, the family, or both?
And if we’re wrong in that shunning practice, then how does Christ feel about it? As a servant Christ even washed the feet of his betrayer. Who did Christ shun?
You shun because your clergy class don’t want you to leave. Simple as that. You keep them in $17,000 rose gold Apple watches. Shunning just re-enforces the brainwashing that the rank and file get told. It is nothing short of evil to kick out a teenager from their own home and family to fend for themselves and shun them because they don’t like going to meetings for example, or worse still, because they are a victim of pedophelia within the Congregation and have been told to ‘wait on Jehovah’. How could a child forgive their parent for committing such a disloyal act toward them? Disgraceful. Yet, that is what has happened to many over the years. I am telling it like it is, I’m afraid. I have kept quiet for too long and now I feel that Jesus wants me to speak up to help any to get out of the trap they are in. A person, who had helped hundreds of Muslims to become Christians told a relative of mine who also left, that this may be our calling. I figured that this person has been blessed by God in his ministry greatly. His suggestion made sense. Because there are so many brainwashed souls out there who need to be shown the facts by those who have faced these things before. Many who are speaking on here, including Lloyd and others who write articles and the many who add their own ideas are actually trying to help others to think for themselves. We are actually trying to help you.
Shunning is the control of information. Classic Cult behaviour.
haha thats hilarious. you actually belive that god is wrong in his dealings with mankind, Maan im glad im not in your shoes.
@matt
We are not necessarily saying that God is wrong, rather we are criticizing seven self-appointed men who have tried to usurp the position of Christ.
BTW, that’s quite the self-righteous attitude evident in your post. You learn that from Jesus sermon on the mount? I think not, because I know where you learned it.
WS
@ Matt
Please see my post below, and answer those questions if possible, and if you have the desire to. And since all Christians are commanded to follow Christ’s example, its appropriate to consider who Christ shunned, as I asked in my post above this one. Do you know of anyone Christ shunned Matt?
I look at all scriptures as inspired, but realistically there is a chain of authority (command) isn’t there Matt? Apostles cannot usurp Christ, as Christ cannot usurp God, in fulfilling God’s purposes. Therefore, not to consider Christ’s own example, that is as much as we know about it from scripture, makes no sense.
The reason why most everyone comments on this site that were once JWs is because, as WS stated, they believe the WT is usurping Christ’s authority. And in doing so WT, to us, is preaching doctrine and rules to be followed that are unbiblical.
Many, probably most, ex-JWs here still believe in God.
@Matt
Can you specify the exact scripture or scriptures that tell Christians to shun people. I’m aware of scriptures Paul wrote directing Christians in charge (elders) to put someone out the Christian congregation for breaking specific Christian laws. It looks like he was telling congregation members to no longer consider those people as Christians.
But do you know of scriptures that direct Christians not to have any dealings with those people once they are no longer Christians? Also, I see no allowance for Christians to add to Paul’s list of broken laws. Are you aware of any scriptures teaching that list could be expanded, with God’s blessing? A final question, how do you correlate putting those people out of the congregation, with putting them out of blood family relationships through association?
@ Matt
We ask these questions of you in all sincerity, not as a jab to you. Carefully consider all things. The WT used to have a book called Make Sure Of All Things. Many commenters on this site have done that. WS and many others here used to be JW elders. I used to give talks from the platform on a weekly basis. Most of us carefully considered what we were teaching then, and logically decided it was unbiblical. I still attend the hall, but ethically I decided I will not give a talk there again. Like many here that was a decision I made. Many of us were not put out. We, like you, desire to follow God, and the real truth contained in his word.
Saniyah Foster, when I found out that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 B.C.
E. instead of 607 B.C.E. and I confronted the elders about that little “fact”, they came over to my house 2 by 2 so they could all hear about my defection (why I wouldn’t go to meetings anymore because I won’t support an organization that lies to me), they gave a marking talk on me and so I am being shunned and that is after being a loyal JW for 50 years.
Do you think I am being shunned because of my conduct or is it because they don’t want me to tell anybody what I have learned about all the lies?
607 is just the start of the rabbit hole that I discovered about when it comes to how we were all being lied to.
You are being kept in the dark when it comes to Watchtower history and even the Bible. Our Bible was been rewritten to make you think it says something that it doesn’t say at all.
You should read the New World Translation along with the King James and other Bibles and you will see the difference.
Watchtower knows what it is doing to you and they don’t care that you are sacrificing your life for fairy tales.
I think it’s possible that even the Governing Body are deluded into thinking that the “end” is coming any minute and if you did any research into how we got the Bible, you would have to realize the predictions in it are no different than Nostradamis’s predictions.
Why waste the only life you have been blessed with when you won’t even do some research on how we got the Bible?
If you were going to buy a car, wouldn’t you research the car you were buying to make sure you were getting what you really want? Your life is worth much more than any car you will buy.
@ matt just a small point If the “disfellowshipping” of the man in the scriptures ie 1cor and 2cor was an anointed Christian and the admonishment to fellow anointed ones, was not to fellowship with that man, where does it leave all you nonanointed sheep.? You are not under such rules because you are not covenanted with jesus and don’t commune with fellow brothers inchrist. The shunning rules really do not apply to “other sheep” because you are not in spiritual danger because you are not in the spirit. It really only applies to those who profess Christ and can see a blatant flouting of their anointing not some crazy man made threat of faith and conscience. Or some arbitrary rule lets say for example a Christmas tree or smoking or knocking on strangers doors for a magic10 hours per month.. Chew on the fat of what I am suggesting and really see who the new testament is written for . I think you will find is applies only to those in Christ and not to uncovenanted people. Ruthlee
the same reason why Russia will ban u xD
“”””JW’s are being encouraged to write letters to Vladimir Putin and other Russian officials to protest the potential JW ban. The PDF instructions published on JW.org state that members can write multiple letters – not just to different parties – but to the same person. Putin is listed first on the collection of addresses.
Here’s the irony ….
If we wrote to specific members of the Governing Body of JW’s about an issue of utmost concern, how many would be read by them if the content disagreed with their policies, and how many would simply be dealt with by the relevant departments sending back form letters or ignoring the correspondence altogether?
Let’s be honest – they are suggesting to the rank and file that Putin will have to deal with these letters, while they would never in a million years read an un-fielded letter themselves.””””
They might receive a better response and have their letters read if WT told the rank and file to put a five dollar bill in each envelop and send it off with a letter of apology and concession.
its biblical to shun those openly disunify them selves against god in serious sin, theres no ” they do” your conflict is against god not of man
Matt, how long have you been a Witness?
Don’t you know that if you disassociate from Watchtower that you will be shunned? Watchtower tries to say that a person who disassociates themselves are disfellowshiping themselves.
Do you really think it’s a “sin” worthy of being called “serious” sin when a person can’t support an organization that you were tricked into joining?
Every one of Jehovah’s Witnesses was tricked into joining/baptized and once that person finds out about all the lies and wants out, they either disassociate themselves or for the rest of their lives, they are going to be watched to make sure they don’t do Christmas, birthdays, grow beards, take blood, live with somebody without being married to that person, get pregnant out of wedlock, go to a church, smoke, or ride a bike backwards. In other words, they have no way of getting out without being shunned.
What you are talking about is when a person wants to be in a certain religion and goes to that church and insists on his right not to live according to the rules of that church anyway and that is not the same as a person who just wants out and not be monitored by that religion for the rest of their lives and being forced to live according to their rules for the rest of their lives or be shunned if they should ever break any of those rules of that religion that they were tricked into joining.
I think what you are saying would make sense if, say for instance, if you want to belong to a certain religion and it’s against the rules of that religion or organization to smoke, then that religion or organization has a right to shun that person until that person stops the smoking but when that person stops smoking, that person should be able to not be shunned anymore but that is not the way the Watchtower works.
In Watchtower, that person can quit smoking but they will have to attend all the meetings and sit in the back and be shunned until the elders decide that that person has been punished long enough, before the elders decide that that person can be talked to again. That shunning could take a year or even years and in the meantime, even their family has to shun that person. It goes against human nature not to help a person who needs help.
It’s like if you were driving down the road and you saw an accident and kept right on driving. Human nature would make a normal person want to stop and help a person who is in trouble and hurt. Watchtower forces it’s people to act against their human nature. Last year’s assemblies showed a mother and father refusing to even pick up the phone from their disfellowshiped daughter. What if that daughter was going to commit suicide? What if she was being beat up and raped? What if she was just diagnosed with terminal cancer?
What you should read is the parable about the prodigal son and compare Watchtower to an actual Christian religion and compare Watchtower to the Pharisees and you will see that Watchtower compares more to the Pharisees than to what Jesus taught when it comes to mercy and forgiveness. Jesus taught mercy and humbleness, unlike the Pharisees, who Jesus condemned.
The Watchtower religion teaches you to be a psychopath. I know because I was one for 50 years.
I know that you worship a god who will kill your mother, father, brother, sister, son or daughter if that person is disfellowshiped. You are no different than those Moloch worshippers in Israelite times who threw their babies into the arms of Moloch as burning sacrifices, just as Jephthah did when he sacrificed his daughter to Jehovah.
That is how cruel that religion is. We were all brainwashed to think just like you are brainwashed. There is a place for disfellowshipping sometimes, true but it should be for the right reasons.
Superb Caroline this is your testimony cheers Ruthlee
Really enjoyed the article and all the great comments.
I remember the Malawi letter writing campaign – writing letters and crying. I only wish I knew about Mexico at the time.
On a lighter note, if every witness is busy writng all those letters (and no doubt counting their time) it’ll keep ’em from door knocking for a week or so (hopefully) and give us all a break.
What generally surprises me is the extent the watchtower goes, whenever their properties are threatened, but when lives of JWs are at risk, they encourage them more to take the risk, that they are sacrificing for Jah. But whenever their properties are threatened, they can even sign an agreement to join the army.
JWS are imprisoned in Eritrea, for many years. But unless I don’t remember correctly, I have never heard of a call to write letters.
Yep yo got a point there !
Methinks there is much more $$$ at stake in Russia than in lowly piss-willy-who-cares-for-you Eritrea !
Will a ban in Russia limit your ability to associate with family and friends?
Will a JW Df-ing limit your freedoms in any way ….anywhere in the world?
What ever happened back in the day when the leaders of JW’s would say if it’s meant to be that Jehovah will make it happen. They certainly are not relying on their god to help them. Nor do they have his blessing/backing!!!!!!!!!
if your brothers and sisters were being falsely accused by an athority and you genuinely wanted to make your voice heard in responce to being labled as a criminal, making a TACTFULL respectfull letter to said athoritys isnt relying on man its making a respectfull request to be heard. and making a claim that god isnt backing jehovahs witnesses is just lunacy.
matt – I hope you get your spelling correct on your letter to Putin or he’ll think you are an uneducated idiot!
Authority, response, labelled, tactful, respectful….
You do know you are being very disobedient by coming to this site?
Is God really backing Jehovah’s Witnesses? Let’s see … hmmm.
Little girl cries to Jehovah to free her from abuse. Twenty years or so later she has to revert to the law courts for justice.
Meanwhile, Jehovah blesses the Governing Body with prestigious new headquarters…. So, yes, definitely god’s backing but I would question which god?
@matt,
Making a claim that god isnt backing jehovahs witnesses is just lunacy (sorry, I have to correct that, I have never used such bad English in all my life):
Making a claim that God isn’t backing Jehovah’s Witnesses is just lunacy? Really?
Could you give some proof that we have his backing? Are we to be convinced by the ever changing explanation of Jesus’ illustrations, including the meaning of ‘generation’? Then God must be a bleeding idiot! And never, never should we describe God as such.
Is it our worldwide increase? Then how about most of Europe, as well as Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc where there has been a decrease? Is God somehow unhappy with us in those countries? And in about three years we will be having an overall worldwide decrease. Will this show God’s displeasure?
Is it the overall growth of our religion over the past 100 years or more? Have you seen the growth of the SDA’s? God must be backing them too.
Is it our love? Tell me about it, a brother who has been kicked in the guts for no reason for decades until I describe myself as the dung that won’t go down the toilet while the elders are flushing it. Love? Really?
Is it the amount of child abuse that has gone on unreported in our organization? Oh, don’t blame that on God I hear you suddenly say.
So what is it, Matt, what shows God is backing us up? Come on, surprise me.
My gut reaction would be to encourage the Russian government to ban Jehovah’s Witnesses but I was a Witness too long to think the Witnesses would be deterred from meeting together and trying to “Witness” to people anyway, in spite of being banned. They would feel giddy about it as a matter of fact.
In the 1960’s, when I first became a Witness, I remember many service meeting parts where we were instructed on how to Witness under ban and there were many countries where Witnesses were banned but still Witnessing. Being banned did not stop the Witnesses and they even grew in number anyway. That was the “mark” of a true Christian religion, as I remember being told and believing it.
The sad thing is that just as in Malawi, Witnesses are under pressure to “Witness” and they will suffer persecution if they are caught and some may be thrown into prison or maybe even killed (who knows?). They will blindly follow the Society and think they are doing God’s will before the “end” comes.
I don’t believe the Governing Body cares nearly as much about the Witness work being done as the loss of their Kingdom halls. Putin is one of the richest people in the whole world and how he did it was by stealing people’s businesses and I think that what he really wants is their Kingdom Halls and I don’t believe he gives a rat’s a*** about their teachings or the shunning or the people’s losing their lives over the blood issue, considering how many people he’s killed who get in his way.
He is a murderer of the worst kind. Why should he care about Witness teaching? It would be like him to gleefully throw Witnesses into prison if they are caught preaching under ban.
So, in the end, even though I would love to see the Witnesses banned, I know that banning them will only drive them underground and they would be risking their lives for a Watchtower Organization that is much more concerned about losing their Kingdom Halls than them.
The mainstream press has taken notice of the move by Russia to ban Jehovah’s Witnesses because they are an extremist group. The Russians present powerful arguments and presidents to support their case:
“The Jehovah’s Witnesses first legally registered as a religious group in Russia in 1991 and re-registered in 1999, according to the organization’s international website.”
“For almost two decades, however, Russian prosecutors in various localities have periodically sought to outlaw or curb the group, charging it is a cult that destroys families, fosters hatred and threatens lives.”
“In 2009, the Supreme Court of Russia upheld a lower court ruling that declared 34 pieces of Jehovah’s Witness literature as “extremist,” including their magazine The Watchtower in Russian.”
“Jehovah’s Witnesses have been officially banned from the port city of Taganrog since 2009, after a local court ruled the organization guilty of inciting religious hatred by “propagating the exclusivity and supremacy” of their religion, according to the British newspaper The Independent.”
“In 2015, a court in Rostov convicted 16 Jehovah’s Witnesses of practicing extremism in Taganrog, handing out jail sentences — later suspended — of more than 5 years for five of the defendants and stiff fines for the others. That same year, the supreme court of Russia banned the religion’s international website as “extremist.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/16/russia-moves-declare-jehovahs-witnesses-extremist/99257116/
It really doesn’t seem proper for Watchtower adherents in Russia to suffer the way they did in Malawi. It would be better for the Governing Body to allow Russian Witnesses to bribe local officials to overlook their preaching activities. That’s how things are done in Mexico. It might be a lot cheaper than losing all of those Russian Kingdom Halls.
It wasn’t all that long ago when jwbroadcasting was running videos about the persecution JW’s were suffering over in Russia and how they were losing their jobs and being thrown in prison etc. and never once did Watchtower say anything about helping those people out. I remember one young man having lost his job and he was living off his mother’s small pension that she got every month and it was like $50. Does anybody else remember that? I thought even then, why don’t those people see how Watchtower could help them but didn’t. Also, I remember a video jwbroadcasting was showing not that long ago and there was a woman with 3 or 4 small children and all they had to eat was rice and it was showing how the elders had come over to her house to offer her “spiritual” help but not a word about food or money.
Watchtower has lawyers and money. Why don’t they go over there themselves and talk to the Russian government?
It’s because they are scared little cowards. They think if letters worked in Malawi, they think then maybe it will work with Putin but Putin will not have any sympathy with Watchtower. As a matter of fact, those letters could make him even more of a despot.
He wants their Kingdom halls and Watchtower wants to keep those Kingdom Halls but Watchtower knows Putin is a murderer and they will not risk their lives for those brothers and sisters by going over there to try and reason with that government, just the same as they wouldn’t show up in Australia to defend Watchtower against protecting child abusers.
In the latest Watchtower video, “Russian Authorities Move to Ban Jehovah’s Witnesses”, Governing Body member Mark Sanderson discusses the seriousness of the upcoming ban on Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia. https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODOurOrganization/pub-jwb_201703_14_VIDEO
The Watchtower Corporation could have its Kingdom Halls and other properties confiscated. The most valuable Russian property is probably the Branch Office located in Saint Petersburg. Here is a tour of the facility: https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODOurOrganization/pub-jwbur_201412_2_VIDEO
This move is because watchtower properties will be seized. JWs can suffer of lack of food, accommodation, imprisonment all they want. Watchtower will not do a thing, neither will the governing body.
However, if their properties us threatened. Watchtower will try every trick in the bag
Its all about the money ! $$$ And….persecution is a wunderbar tool to crank up the FEAR and get the faithful back inside the halls. Nothwithstanding the fact that many other religions are also under the cosh in Mother-Russia
http://www.forum18.org/
I wondered where you had gotten to Caroline. I hope you are well.
Me too. By the sound of your comments Caroline, you sound more together than I have ever heard you before. (Isaiah 40:31)
lies , mis information , and hearsay. by the way i want you to realize your openly spreading false information about the oppertational functions of the elders.
@matt
What information in this thread had anything to do with the operational functions of the elders? Please be specific rather than making sweeping generalizations. I served as an elder for almost 10 years and can rightly say whether any false information is being shared.
WS
WS Matt may be referring to what Caroline saw in the video of elders giving spiritual advice to poor people but no physical help like food. That’s just a guess.
@matt,
Why do you suddenly jump in and make nonsense statements? It makes us Witnesses look as if we are nut jobs, and how does that bring glory to Jehovah?
Ricardo,
Do you think maybe we could reason with him? He’s here, so he’s checking some things out against WT’s orders. He just has the opinion of other JWs that’s all.
Take care buddy.
@messenger,
Yes, he is here checking things out. But couldn’t he do so quietly? Or if he must make a comment, at least seem a bit sensible? These sort of ambush attacks where he jumps in and says something that has very little contextual meaning and then disappears, never to reply, is just unwarranted even for a Witness.
Keep in mind that from time to time on this site we get JW Trolls who jump in and make a lot of noise and accusations and then never return or reply. matt could be one of those. I am certainly willing to give the benefit of the doubt if he is willing to engage in honest and open debate.
WS
@WS,
Matt is not open for debate. See his pattern. Jump in, say something silly, get people steamed up, and then silence. He’s having a guerila war where he is putting us all on notice through his badly spelt comments. Be gone, Matt, you phantom.
You are likely correct. That’s why they call them internet trolls.
WS
matt, what lies and mis information and hearsay are you referring to?
If it’s the videos where the elders visited that sister with all the kids and all they had to eat was rice and all they did was offer spiritual help or the the video dealing with the persecution in Russia and how they were suffering and there was no mention in that video of helping them out with money or food, let me know and I will locate both videos so you can see them for yourself.
They were both on jwbroadcasing but it as some time ago but if you want proof, I will locate them both for you.
I know that in congregations that many times the brothers and sisters will pitch in and help their fellow Witnesses but I was talking about the Society as a rule does not offer help to those people and I was specifically referring to those people in Russia.
Many of them have lost their jobs, been thrown in prison and many facing prison time and are practically starving because of the persecution they have been going through in Russia for some time now but when the Society puts up their videos of those people, they want to tug on the heart strings of the rank and file and the worst those people’s conditions are, the more it tugs on the heart strings of the rest of the rank and file and that is exactly what Watchtower wants.
In other words, Watchtower is not going to jump on their white horses and help them out. They want the brothers and sisters in Russia to suffer. It works for Watchtower to have them suffer.
The only reason that Watchtower is begging for letters to be sent is to save their property. I am 100% convinced of that.
See, Messenger, see how many people Matt has got all steamed up? Even Caroline felt so annoyed with him that she had to write so much. And that rascally Matt just disappeared, like that Scarlet Pimpernel chap, never to appear to face the music. Guys like that don’t deserve our attention. I don’t want to reason with him. I want him to go away.
matt let the poor folk eat cake rather than rice and donate all your Rolexes. ruthlee
looser
@rafic,
This blog had nothing to do with clothes. What you on about? Tighter, looser, who cares?
Blame Matt, he’s got me all steamed up.
World rulers are become fearful of what the Watch Tower are preaching about this WORLD, which is being offered to their subjects?
A thing that God or Jesus did not offering .
While the bible clearly preaches that this world will pass away, they are preaching the opposite which
Is a treat to the world rulers?
looser
You too, bob!
Hey Ricardo & Winston Smith:
Don’t you find it odd that the ones that come on this site (Bob, rafic saba, et als) to leave nonsensical messages would not dare to post their opinions on JW.org?
Oh forgive me, I forgot; JW.org doesn’t give a pinch of owl dung about them or their opinions. They have to come to ‘apostate’ web sites to state their ‘opinions’.
That my friends is the difference in former Witnesses who have found out the Truth about the Truth (apostates) and the poor blinded, deluded, ignorant ‘Sheeple’ that are still in bondage to the totalitarian, distopia aka Watchtower.
Thanks to jwsurvey.org and other similar sites, we are free to express our opinions and discuss our personal views of the Scriptures. JW.org not so much (read: not at all). No ‘questions from readers’ column on that site! No way to express discontent, either. Only answers that you can’t (or better not) question. Just a carry over from the congregation culture passed down from the ever vigilant ‘faithful and discreet slave. Oh, have you contributed to the ‘world wide work’ (or whatever their beg-a-thon is called now) this month?
And the process…”oh let me read the exact answer from the paragraph, those words we just read together.” Baby land teaching. Is it thinking or is it stinking? “Let me give my comment now. I think I’ll read almost the exact words, that we just read together.”
“Oops I can’t keep up. I didn’t underline my answers.””Well sis….I being the mic carrier, see you didn’t read the correct words for your answer (no underlines).”
In the meantime I’m reading another article, sometimes flipping back to look at the one under discussion. But I can’t help from hearing these words read from the paragraph over again, after the reading.
But average folks among us…the best..add different words in their answers. “How refreshing”…starting to nod. “Let me see what other articles in this mag look interesting.”
“Bro Theopulus,” “Oh that’s Theopulas. I’ll read my words now, you know the ones we just read.”
Give a man a fish, and if he lets it sit long enough it will stink…some say it stinks already…teach a man to fish, and what, oh his experiences will teach him. No mans’/womans’ experiences are exactly the same, but every experience teaches something. Isa 48:17
I think Bob and rafic saba were talking about me Big B. I did loose my way…I admit it…but I found it again.
@Big B and Messenger,
Why are those guys talking about trousers? What do we care if their trousers are tighter or looser? Are they making a pun about not wearing tight pants?
When folks have no substantive argument, all they can do is name-call.
We should pity the poor, uneducated, indoctrinated members who are still mentally asleep.
WS
Cedars,
I just watched your new video attached to this article. You made quite a compelling case against the ban.
best wishes.
messenger
And the inside of Cedar’s house looks really great. Remember when we would see just the brick work? The finished product looks comfortable, like a home.
“””Whichever way we look at it, the plight of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia is grim and these beleaguered people deserve our sympathy and solidarity. Nobody deserves to be robbed of the right to believe what they want by their own government, no matter how damaging or detrimental those beliefs may be.””””
Then it would be proper to Write/Pray/Protest/ Activate for ALL religious groups under pressure from their regimes everywhere – not just the JW.
http://www.forum18.org/
I wont be happy until every member of the GB and their sleazy lawyers are behind bars.
I have reviewed your YouTube video, Attempts to BAN Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia and I agree to disagree on some of your points Lloyd. I agree that banning people for some activity or belief is an extreme measure of silencing people. I agree in a strictly technical sense that banning conflicts with people’s rights. However, people’s rights is relative to the country you live in. We do have freedom of religion in the United States Constitution, but as we can attest to, is not always the case.
Certain countries have been banning, or persecuting the Jehovah’s Witnesses throughout time. Russia has banned or persecuted Jehovah’s Witnesses during the communist regime of Lennon, Stalin, and Trotsky. Russians, as a whole, have been under severe persecution. Even thrown people to Siberia.
My great-grandfather came from a Russian satellite country. In early 1900’s, my family moved to the United States. According to my uncle, we moved to the United States due to human persecution, poor economics, and to have a future not controlled by tyrannical leaders. This was his decision to move to a better country where there is a fighting chance of a better life.
I feel that individual people should either love to be persecuted, or banned. Or, they move to another country to live where such activity is not occurring. A more proactive response.
If the Jehovah’s Witnesses acted better and start handling things more appropriately, I feel that people would feel more inclined to write letters and speak out against this ban. But, Watchtower does not feel so inclined. Thus, people do not side with Watchtower.
Yeah, I don’t think sending all those letters from around the world to a cruel dictator is a bright idea. Pray to God not to Putin! Yet another misstep by the leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I agree WT Critic,
Putin is not a person the org should want to piss-off. And that many letters ending up on any type A personality is a sure piss-off. The effect will be to make his heart harder, to use a Bible phrase.
An analogy that might be appropriate is that Putin is likened to the Egyptian Pharaoh, and the JWs are the enslaved Jewish tribes. Complain to him and things get worse, not better.
@WTCritic,
There are positives in the efforts of the leaders. It allows the Witnesses worldwide to show solidarity with the brothers in Russia, helping us to see we are worldwide and united, part of the umah (in Muslim speak). It also allows the GB to look as if they care, as if they are very concerned. And it makes it look as if they have guts, a quality sorely lacking in recent court cases and commissions.
It turns the brothers and sisters attention away from the embarrassing Royal Commission mess ups and ‘generation’ new light, and focusses attention on Armageddon.
And if Putin responds badly, these factors will be reinforced.
I don’t think the GB sees this as a misstep. They will be losing property, it is true (if they haven’t been clever enough to sell it off already), but there are the mentioned advantages, which help to convince the brotherhood that we are the true religion.
I was scratching my head while Mark Sanderson was speaking in Russian as he directed his comments to the Russian brothers and sisters…I was under the impression that JW Broadcasting was banned for some time now, and they couldn’t access it?! Well I guess he had some other reason for appearing to be speaking to them. I’m sure it appealed to the masses who did watch.
@Shibboleth,
Although I haven’t heard of any alternative site the Russian brothers can go to, I am sure the GB will have arranged an alternative way for them to connect to jw.org and to the broadcasts. The Watchtower will have ways of reaching to them.
The judgement day has arrived in Russia for JW.Those are very good news indeed! After so many failures and false predictions now they have to face their own end.
What do you believe in then? What God? What religion? I can’t imagine leaving, but I’m starting to get confused. I don’t want to ever be an apostate, or speak bad if my friends. But, if it was so easy for you to leave, where do you put your faith? Looking forward to paradise is what keeps me going. If I don’t believe in what the watchtower says, then what’s in my future? Just die and that’s it.
@Margie
My statement of faith: I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
I don’t need some promise of everlasting paradise to keep me going. If it is God’s will for me to live forever either in heaven or on earth, then his will be done. But for me, it is simply about making each day the best I can make it and considering my purpose as stated above. I don’t need some human authority figure or group of supporters to give me their approval or direction. It’s simply between me and the Creator of heaven and earth.
WS
Hi Winston you have just about summed up what many seem to conclude who leave the witnesses with faith intact. @ Margie we who have left the org go through a painful process and many bumps in the road. Many do not have belief in god and that is fine. I totally agree with Winston in that I follow the lamb and am covenanted to him and not policy makers in Brooklyn. If I serve eternity in heaven or on earth is not my decision nor is it an American man in a suit. I do think it is encouraging to meet with likeminded people but it is not compulsory . Paradise is a fantasy concocted by the religion when they had too many to accommodate their magic number (144,000). Paradise will never come in the way they want it because it is man made and fabricated . Only god can fix broken and judge mankind not lawyers in warwick. No amount of watchtower printed material will hurry god’s plan or effect it. No amount of doorknocking will have an impact on god , people or the world scene. No amount of service will buy you a ticket to paradise. So my conclusion is if you stick with the witnesses you will be disappointed. The sooner you leave you live.We are not allowed to actually say what our faith is on this site but many of us are stronger in faith and belief and hope and recognise ourselves as Christians but never again as a Jehovah’s witness. When I meet my maker I am comfortable with that and I don’t have any excuses to make about answering to cultish men. Cheers Ruthlee
I really like what you have said.
If there is something beyond this life
(I think there is) and if there is a loving God
(I also think there is) we should continue to make today count, to help one another,
and to keep struggling to improve in our failings. We have many.
A person like that would be loved by everyone.
And especially by God!
Margie,
Believing in what the WT says, and believing in God and the Bible are two separate issues. WT has already convinced you that this concept applies to every other religion out there (that believing in and following those religions does not mean following God), both of Christian and non-Christian religions. But WT’s magic hat trick, so to speak, is that it also convinced you into believing what it CLAIMS about other religion could never be true of itself. Therefore, as long as you believe WT could never deserve God’s disfavor you can never leave, and still please God.
Most here think you should leave. That’s not my opinion. I think you should decide what to do. But I think you should ask yourself these question: If I stay with WT will I continue to teach Bible beliefs I think are wrong? If I do that how do I think God will react to my behavior?
Just to let you know about me. I still attend the Hall, but I don’t believe WT is what it claims to be. But also I don’t attend the Hall for WT. I never did, even when I served as one of WT’s appointed servants in three separate congregations, I never attended the Hall for WT. Not even when I believed in it. I only did it for God, Christ, and other people, not for WT.
Best to you, and please remember WT is not God, though it acts like it.
Oh I also attended for me…don’t leave me out.
best wishes!
I read an unconfirmed report here of there being 3.6 million Anglicans in Aust. and 60,000 JW’s. Both have child abuse cases numbering 1000. According to my calculator that means the Watchtower is sixty times worse than the Anglicans on the issue of child abuse.
Anybody who knows these figures and still identifies as a JW is supporting this atrocity.
Just something to consider, messenger. I know it’s not easy and I do actually understand the workings and mechanisms of a belief system, religious or otherwise.
Best wishes.
Actually, I don’t give any money, just go to meetings when I want to (haven’t been for a while largely due to circumstances), don’t place their lit, don’t go in the field unless I want to, don’t comment at their meetings at all. Report 0 hrs, with no guilt, even for months if I don’t go out, and talk to others in that formal process.
So, other than going out and sharing straight from the Bible with people, and sitting in the hall sometimes, I don’t identify with them.
At times I tell people, in person, the inner stink that’s going on inside the org. And at times I tell people that the JWs are teaching ideas not found in the Bible, and how they kick members out who don’t believe their false rules and teachings.
I’ve taken on the attitude that they can’t hurt me. I’ve somewhat had it since I first came in. Even back then I decided to, and did, resist elder BS, ever since the beginning. My attitude from the start was I’d sooner kick them in the balls than bow to their BS. I still feel the same way after more than 40 years.
What I found is that even an animal understands pain. But I didn’t take that approach primarily for them to understand. I know I can’t change another’s character.
To all and Margie;
Great points made messenger, ruthlee and Winston Smith.
“I don’t need some promise of everlasting paradise to keep me going. If it is God’s will for me to live forever either in heaven or on earth, then his will be done. But for me, it is simply about making each day the best I can make it and considering my purpose as stated above”.
Well said, I concur.
“Paradise is a fantasy concocted by the religion when they had too many to accommodate their magic number (144,000). Paradise will never come in the way they want it because it is man made and fabricated”.
How true, as I have never read the phrase ‘paradise earth’ in the Bible, never.
“Therefore, as long as you believe WT could never deserve God’s disfavor you can never leave, and still please God”. “If I stay with WT will I continue to teach Bible beliefs I think are wrong? If I do that how do I think God will react to my behavior?”
And that is the catch for so many, unfortunately.
A bit off topic (not unusual for me) so I’ll just run this up the proverbial ‘flag
pole’ and see if anyone salutes it.
How about this explanation for size?
The survivors of Armageddon (great crowd) stay on earth. Resurrected (2nd resurrection) ones that died before Christ opened the way (John the Baptist to Abel) stay on Earth with survivors. The ‘happy and holy ones’ who believed Christ and became his followers (like us) are heaven bound in the 1st Resurrection especially if we die before Armageddon.
If this is true all not just some (if the 144,000 is truly symbolic) should partake of the memorial emblems not just a few but everyone in attendance. Would not rejection of those emblems signify a rejection of the Christ, his kingdom and his sacrifice? And if they partake and are not chosen for heavenly glory, oh well no harm no foul.
Did not Jesus say that Gentiles (other sheep not Rutherford’s explanation of ‘great crowd of other sheep’) would be gathered, starting in the first century and would become one flock with one shepherd? Were there any ‘onlookers’ at the first memorial? Except for Judas Iscariot, who had been dismissed after the ending of the Passover celebration, all except perhaps Jesus, who initiated the memorial, were partakers all eleven faithful apostles.
Just a thought.
I’m starting to partake this year, but not at the KH. I’ll do so at home. You’re probably correct that ALL claiming to be Christian’s should partake of the emblems. There is another reason that might be true that you left out.
See Rev three ten. Christ is sparing Christians from an hour of test that is coming on the whole world via the GT. A test is not the same as personal destruction. Therefore, it very well could be that those coming out of the GT that Rev speaks of, have washed their robes by accepting Christ during and that test and because of that test, not prior to it. If so, that would suggest that ALL approved Christians go to heaven to escape the test prior to it happening. Or at least probably sometime early on after it starts.
Take care brother.
I put in one too many words “and”, but you’ll see where to correct.
Hi Margie, my belief is pretty much in line with Winston’s but with very little belief in an actual god, but if there is a god at all, we’ve got the story all wrong. Religions are a mess and this mess is created by man. So I just continue being a decent person and if there’s any justice at all, there’s nothing to worry about. If I just die, well, it’s not as if I’ll be lying there thinking “bummer!, I’m dead! We have no recollection of anything before we were born, so it’s probably the same when we die. Hell was invented to dispel that thought, you notice. “You can’t escape god (our religion) even in death so your only choice is to join us”. Even though the WT says you do actually die altogether, your punishment for not being a JW is a hideous and ghastly death, not one where you just die peacefully in your sleep as a ‘merciful’ god would do because you were born Hindu and had never heard of the christian god. Again – scare tactics. ‘Bums on seats’ is the bottom line.
@Margie,
I am an active Witness who has been kicked in the guts again and again by our leaders. I will not bore you with my stories, but you can find them on previous posts. I picture myself as a piece of dung in the toilet with the elders continually flushing, but I just won’t go down.
I am so sick of being kicked in the guts, I tell you. I don’t enjoy going to meetings, and when I am there I hear so much nonsense about how wonderful our spiritual paradise is I just want to vomit blood.
It is hard for the average Witness to understand my situation because they have probably not seen behind the curtain. They have just enjoyed everything being wonderful, believing they are in LaLa land. There is a dark, vicious side to our organization, that when you see it you won’t believe it. Who of us ever thought elders routinely lie? Who ever thought they would cover themselves, even faking a letter from the GB to cover their errors? And they get away with it.
I go to the meetings because I believe (at the moment) that Jehovah wants us to meet together, but I don’t enjoy it because nobody much talks to me at the meetings. I look around and see the elders mainly talking to themselves. Plus most brothers are not on my wavelength. They don’t share my experiences. They don’t read this site. They haven’t read Raymond Franz’s books.
I go preaching, hoping not to find anyone who is interested (not much danger of that happening) because I don’t want anyone else to come into this organization and feel the pain I have.
Why am I still a Witness? I’m still working things out, like you. But I have no confidence this religion is the truth, because the true religion would not have a culture of leaders bullying the rank and file, ruining our lives.
I know one brother who just wants to be a Christian rather than a Witness. He attends the meetings sometimes, to try to gain some good principles from them. I like that style. I have another friend who never puts in a report, even though he goes preaching. Something like this attracts me. Just attend the meetings sometimes, while trying to differentiate how being a Christian is different than being a Witness. Being a good Christian guarantees salvation while being a good Witness does not.
@Ricardo
I feel very sad that your self-loathing is so acute. It’s actually a very dangerous view for you to take regarding yourself. It sets you up for more abuse. The org has contributed to this. In their talks they pump you up then rip you apart then pump you up again. It’s a very sick tactic. There is a need to be aware that you are suffering from abuse…many forms of abuse (psychological, emotional, mental and spiritual). But the saddest part is you continue to abuse and beat yourself. The second command from Jesus is love your neighbor as yourself. Hence, you must FIRST love yourself. When you accept and love who you are, everything about who you are, you will not allow anyone to hurt you in any way. Inner child workshops are very helpful to reconnect with that child who has been wounded. May you find the love and peace you so desperately desire. Shalom
@Shibboleth,
A rational human being would think that we would find love and peace in true Christianity. We are told that the Witnesses have true Christianity. And yet I don’t feel love and peace when I am in the congregation. I am genuinely scared of elders. What are they going to do next to me? Where is the love? Where is the peace? I know where the judging is, the criticism, the abuse.
I mean, there are plenty of reasons to give me praise if the elders wanted to. Least of which is that I get my young son ready for the meetings, bathed, teeth brushed, clothes ironed, study article prepared. We get to the meeting on time. We both answer at the meetings. We both go preaching. Pretty good for a single parent you would think, especially for a man (men don’t usually have to get so involved in their child’s preparation, I mean).
So you would think the elders could give some encouragement, right? Not, one word. Shame on them, not one word.
Self-loathing? That’s a new thought. Let’s see where that takes me. Thanks for your concern and good wishes. It is so hard to preserve respect for self in our organization that seems to expect so much.
@Ricardo
I think that perhaps the reason you are “genuinely scared of elders” is that you have allowed them to exert control over you. They have no right to exercise any control over you. When you realize that and begin to take control of your own life again, you will begin to fear them less and less until not at all.
They are only men, and in many cases not even good men. They have no special insight, were not appointed by Holy Spirit, and many of them are poorly educated. As you continue to educate yourself and become armed with facts, there will be little that they can say to intimidate you.
Fight the good fight!
WS
Ricardo just my opinion, but my guess is they would not bother you if your actions went in the other direction for a while. What I mean is don’t comment at the meetings, don’t, go out, turn in a zero on your time slip, and wait for their phone call to get it.
Remember the chief concern for many of those guys is to keep their position. As long as you do everything you’re currently doing you are no threat to that. Stop doing it. If the congregation’s reports to the org are not acceptable the elders’ positions are in jeopardy. That’s what they care about. Stop playing their game, make them play yours, and you might see the butt kissing reversed to the other side. But you have to do more than not commenting to do that, because comments are not reported to the org. Meeting attendance and your service report is what gets reported.
If you take this advice also don’t discuss any of your business with them, such as reasons why you didn’t get out or make it to the hall.
Did Christ work with the org, or did he walk around them? Follow Christ’s example, and stop doing what WT wants you to do. If you do, elders will probably do what you want them to do. But a word of caution, you cannot just stop commenting to make this work. Comments don’t go on reports, and they will butt heads with you forever if that’s all you do. The only tactics I’ve seen work are to report them to higher ups, or kick them the rear like I mention above.
I’m not proofing this, so there may be some mistakes above.
A quote by Nina Simone struck a chord with me, I share it with you:
“You have to learn to get up from the table when love is no longer being served”
Nina Simone
(1933-2003)
Ricardo, you don’t have to direct interest you find in the field to the org, just use the Bible and share its message.
Too bad you didn’t grow up with me as a neighboring friend and youngster in the hood. We might have observed each other fight the bullies, and watch each other’s back. My attitude is mess with or threaten me and its on. But until I was a teenager I grew up in the hood. There’s a different environment there then other places.
than-then
@Messenger,
I love your idea of directing interest found in the ministry to the Bible rather than the organization. That is a classic thought.
What fun. To go preaching but not direct people to the org. Way to go.
Hi Ricardo, I am hearing you. I too was a single dad in the congregation. My wife at the time left me for another man. I had three children to care for and love and support emotionally and physically. The elders in my congregation left us to the wolves. They didn’t even visit my wife once to talk to her of her adultery and to this day is in good standing and gets invites to the memorial every year. I have no animosity for my ex. Her life since she left me 18 years ago has not turned out well and I’m sad for her. During the initial months of being a single dad my kids and I were struggling emotionally and I begged the elders, with tears to come and pray with us. We needed a shepherding call. They never came and over the next 2 years I faded away. They never loved or cared for us. We became “weak ones”.
My three children are atheists due to our treatment at the hands of the elders. As for myself, I got stuck into bible research and study. I discovered the false teachings of the Organisation and weaned myself off the lies and monstrous theology I had for so long declared that I would never deny. Well I can tell you that I deny their theology outright.
Jesus said, ” no one comes to me unless the father draws them”. Well I can say with joy that I have been drawn to Christ as my Lord and Saviour. I believe in things I never thought I would. I see the beautiful truth of the trinity. I understand the true destiny of not only myself but the entire human family. I am adored by God, I’m in Christ and the a Holy Spirit resides in me. I was drawn to a non denomination Christian Church and know I am genuinely loved by my Church family.
I ask you to step out of the Organisation. Step away. What seems like a void in front of you is actually a path to freedom. To all my fellow humans who love this site as I do, please don’t be offended by my Christian rant, it’s really just for Ricardo, with whom I’ve had a similar experience.
@Andrew,
It is kind of you to share your experience with me.
Our experiences give a condemnation of this religion. Yours, 18 years ago. Mine, now. And yet the same response from the elders. What a stuffed-up arrangement.
About six months after my wife left us I was assigned a student talk in my cong. The theme given was on brotherly affection (back at the time when the themes were set) and so in the talk I explained that the boy who had been abandoned by his mother was actually the son of all of us, so how are we doing with the brotherly affection? I said, sadly noone has invited him to their house for a home-cooked meal, or invited him to a cafe for a drink, or even arranged to work with him in the field service. So, in the words of Winston Churchill, sometimes we have to do more than our best, we must also do what is right.
Well, the elders made an immediate arrangement for a shepherding call, and what a doosie it was. They blamed my attitude for my wife leaving me (I wonder how much experience they have had with women suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder to be qualified to put the blame on me?). They blamed me, I blamed them; they criticised me, I criticised them; they said they were imperfect men, I said I was an imperfect man.
You can imagine how comforting all of this was. Just what my son and me needed. Not. Loving shepherds? Or ravenous wolves?
I am glad you found a place you are happy. I have stuck with the org. I am not happy. I don’t recommend anybody stick with the org and continue to get abused.
Cos you know what happened next? I had to leave the country with my son due to my spouse visa running out. Then, my wife got disfellowshipped and the mongrel elders never told me. They had my phone number. I met them before I left and told them how to contact me. And they couldn’t care.
And now, in my current cong, I gave a typed request to the COBE to find out when my wife got disfellowshipped. That was more than a year ago, and the elders still can’t tell me when. In this age of digital technology! How pathetic. This whole blooming fake organization masquerading as the truth is pathetic.
@Ricardo,
Your experience with the shepherding “efforts” of the elders reminds me that they only have cookie cutter solutions to offer at best. And if your problem doesn’t fit their mold, then it must be your fault, not theirs, right? The amount of emotional abuse heaped on the congregation members by these false comforters is phenomenal.
WS
Andrew Haas amen Cheers Ruthlee
Margie I stopped believing in organised religion because of the lies the WT told me. I now refer to myself as a spiritual person and I am much happier. Man knows moral standards like he knows the back of his hand. We have an inbuilt ability to know right from wrong and good from bad. I try to live each day by doing good and I feel blessed for it. I no longer fear what 7 men in suits tell me is right or wrong. If I condoned their lies and went back to the hall then I would be lying to myself and also turning my back on the moral standards I believe in.
I’m ok with this action by Russian leaders. The end justifies the means.
A recent BBC programme highlighted the fact that Mr,,Putin was
intent on promoting nationalism, and in his view a key element in this
is to get back to “The good old days” when the Russian Orthodox
Church was supreme, unopposed by evangelistic sects.
Don’t let anyone tell you, that it’s just JWs who are being persecuted.
Many other groups have had their property confiscated, Pentecostals
are meeting in private homes ( which is also illegal!) and one determined
sect-“New Life” is meeting in a cow barn (Which I suppose is also banned).
They are just as determined as any other committed Christians to “Obey
God rather than men.
Will any of these others be mentioned in the WT, or JWbroadcasting?
Will there be any empathy, any pleas on their behalf in any of the
letter writing campaign? – I don’t think I’ll be eating my hat!
Did anybody else out there see the news story from Russia about the outspoken politician against Putin that was assassinated on the street yesterday? The story also claimed several other people that were Putin critics have been assassinated.
In the news story that I saw, a video of the actual assassination was shown. The victim had a body guard. They both were walking down a street. Another man came up from behind, and when he was right next to the victim he shot him. The victim collapsed, and then his body guard tackled the shooter. But the shooter got back up and ran away as the body guard shot at him.
The victim had obtained a body guard after receiving threats on his life. Putin denies having anything to do with the assassination.
I didn’t notice any mention of that on the news this morning, messenger. Wouldn’t it be big news?
I guess its not a big enough story to run all day, like some of these big terrorist incidents. I’m sure if the press could have tied Putin factually to the assassination it would have been a bigger story. But the television news source that I saw implied those working for Putin were behind it, because they named other Putin critics that have been assassinated.
If you google, Putin invites wife of assassinated politician to Russia, the story will come up.
@Messenger,
Yes, I read that story in the weekend newspaper. How many of his opposition has Putin got rid of now? I think this is the fourth assasination of his opponents. Something like that I read.
@Margie, you already hit the jackpot when you were
conceived. The odds of that happening are beyond
calculating.
I no longer regard this life as just a stop over, waiting
for something better to replace it. I believe we just get
the one shot at it and thousands of years of human
history seem to bear that out.
I wasted 30 years of precious life believing that certain
men had all the answers, but they do not, neither does
any man.
If there is a God with a perfect quality of love
I would think his love would extend to all and not just
to one exclusive group,
My plan is to savour this prize that we already have and
not to blight it, to spoil it by guilt and self doubt, or by
becoming a slave to men. / Just the thoughts of a mere
man. Best wishes.
Well spoken Ted. My thoughts exactly.
To waste time doing something for someone without any remuneration whatever but only the promise of reward is for the birds (cuckoo birds). If a corporation, asked you to cold call people with a product, uninvited and unwanted, for no money or reimbursement from them you would say that ‘you were being used’. And rightly so. Yet millions of friends do this very thing. Why? Because a religious organization told them to do it.
And to think I’ve wasted over 50 years (since 1957-58) doing this stupid stuff embarrasses me to no end. Well I’m finally free; free of fear, free of obligation, free of guilt.
Since my 2013 fade I feel that I am truly master of my own destiny; able to make my own choices without someone looking over my shoulder to inform on me and judge me by their own twisted, warped, Pharisaic interpretations of scripture.
@Big B,
You and I faded about the same time. I became fully awake in November 2012 and started my fade. By the fall of 2013 my fade was nearly complete. Although it has taken significantly longer to totally shake off all the conditioning.
WS
@ Winston Smith;
“Although it has taken significantly longer to totally shake off all the conditioning”.
Yes. As a kind of ‘born in’ (since first grade 1958) it is hard to shake off the conditioning.
However, once I began to vote, put out the national flag, celebrate Holidays (including X-mas) and birthdays, I truly began to feel free.
I also find humor at the shunning at buffet restaurants by the so called ‘friends’. They are uncomfortable and don’t know what to do or say. They just smile, a sheepish one at that.
When i awoke about 4 years ago, my life was shattered, being lied to for so long scrambles the head, i dont beat myself up anymore, i just sit here & think of the reality of life, it will end some day & then we might find the real truth, i am happy to have a great marriage two great kids who have now left the roost, i am happy that they are having a good life & hope that one day they may wake up, i hide in secret & will not preach to anybody accept a few very close friends, & this site which keeps me going, thanks all
Hi Whip It
Somehow I wound up on an older article yesterday. While there I was reading one of your posts. And after that I requested a response from you. I never check the box to be email notified, and you might not either.
So, here was the request. In that comment you said meeting conductors would not call on you if you raised your hand, because you had facial hair. What I want to know is, do you know who made the decision not to call on publishers raising their hands to comment, the elders? Or did it originally come down from WT?
This practice seems to be happening worldwide. And targeted publishers do not have to be violating WT policy to be shunned in their halls that way. If you don’t know for sure, do you have an opinion about where the practice came from, and what keeps it going? I’ve seen it practiced for over 40 years, and I know the practice started even before that.
If anyone else has any info about it please chime in.
@Messenger,
The congregation I am in at the moment is kind of groovy (the elders mainly ignore me). There are several brothers with beards who attend the meetings, and they will often comment.
In the congregation I grew up in, one of the Ministerial Servants had a beard.
Both these congs are in Australia.
OK Ricardo, then ignore the advice I gave to you in response to one of your posts above. I thought they were still bothering you. That advice was to cause the reaction that you’re currently getting. You off the wall questions (according to WT) might have produced the same result. You just used a different tactic. I never used the off the wall question tactic myself. I’ve just used the reporting to upper echelons, and decreased attention in reportable service tactic. For me those both work.
you off=your off
@Messenger,
In every other cong I have been in, the elders have treated me as someone who needs to receive a lesson in submission.
In my current cong the elders just ignore me.
I wish I could find a cong where the elders are actually encouraging. I guess we have to count our blessings. But I am still scared they will come to talk to me and find ways to get at my son or criticize me.
Ricardo,
I suggest not letting your son know about the crap going down, because there is a big chance it will shake his faith in God, if not now then as he gets older. If the elders ever mess you again, tell them to stay out of your business. Chances are there are other churches by you that won’t treat you like this. You always have the option to check out some of them.
The tactics I told you about in another email have worked for me. The elders don’t bother me. The way I carry myself tells them I don’t really look to them for any guidance, or anything at all. They are only casual acquaintances that’s all, and they know it. They realize there is no way I would work with them, other than in casual ways, such as a field service partner occasionally.
Ricardo because this is a public forum I cannot tell you the straight and skinny approach I think you need to take in viewing any group of elders. This is about as straight as I will get on this or any other public forum. If they mess with you, take them down one at a time. That’s advice a CO gave me years ago. If we were not on this public forum I’d be more blunt. I wish I could here, but I choose not to for the sake of setting somewhat of an appropriate example, since I represent Christ.
Before wars are fought on battlefields they are fought in minds and hearts.
Two great boxing champs Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson usually won their heart/mind wars, and they usually won their battles in the ring. If they didn’t believe they would win they probably wouldn’t have.
Be strong Ricardo. They are just men. Isolate them, and confront them. When they feel threatened they’ll back off. All the ones I’ve confronted were cowards. All of them were afraid.
@Messenger,
I want to explain some background. When I was in Asia, the elders in the cong treated me like sh*t, and that was where the judicial-meeting-that-wasn’t took place (the judicial decision I appealled and won, thus the judicial meeting was wiped, becoming the judicial meeting that wasn’t).
On returning to Australia the elders in the cong treated me like sh*t, not allowing me even to AP, and then when I became RP they tried to get me off because of 1 hour not enough (I appealed their decision and won).
I then went to my present cong which treated me well. Upon returning to Asia, my wife no longer wanted to worship Jehovah, and so left me and my son. The elders in the cong didn’t give a sh*t about my son and me, so I jumped to the English cong in that area, where the elders proved to be complete mongrels.
Now I am back in Australia in the good cong where the elders leave me alone. But later this year I must return to Asia to arrange my son’s identity card and divorce my wife. That means returning to the cong where the elders are mongrels, where the three elders forged the letter from the GB.
Then I am going on a long, long holiday. During which I need to decide whether to just fade away, or whatever.
So, yes, the situation with elders is ok now. But not for long cos I need to return to the lion’s den.
If you know they will be jerks why don’t you go there and not do field service, take up a seat but don’t pay any money or work for it, like not cleaning the hall or participating in any of their projects. I say if they ask you to carry a mic or for any help….sorry I can’t
What will they do? Nothing. They can’t at that point. They can only take away what you have. They can only hurt you by taking away what you want.
I say, Zen brother. Don’t want, don’t have anything they can take to hurt you…..I’ll bet the butt kissing will eventually come from them in that case. They want numbers to look good buddy. Don’t contribute numbers for them, or if any extremely low ones like one hour a month. And make them phone you for it sometimes. If they have to phone you, to get your one hour, then whose got who?
What they’ll do is mostly stay way from you, but give you little bits of fake encouragement, like their doing their job.
Hey I’m not proofing this buddy.
@Messenger,
Many thanks for the advice you give, man. It shows you are a very caring individual, and I do take it to heart. I like the way you look at things.
Earlier on you mentioned about not sharing all the info of the crap going on with my son, in case he loses faith in God. Yes, I worry about that a lot. However, the crap the elders have gone on with has been done in front of him.
He was in the house when the elders came to my front door and yelled at me because I would not step aside from RP when I only got 839 hours. When the elder in Asia told me my son takes after me too much, and that it would be better if my son copied some of the elder’s qualities rather than mine, my son was there.
My son was there when the elders made a shepherding call and blamed me for my wife abandoning us (something my son knows to be untrue). And he was at the meeting for brothers wanting to reach out at our local hall when I was publicly counselled by an elder due to one of my questions (I think I may have embarrassed the elder).
And his uncle in Asia who is an elder makes no effort to contact him, although my son is his only blood relative in the truth.
So, unfortunately my son has been caught up in the crap. What I am trying hard to do is help him to see the difference between being a Witness and being a Christian, and emphasising the point that gets lost in the Watchtower studies: In all our dealings, our guiding principle is to love Jehovah with our whole heart, and love our neighbour. He can see me doing this, so hopefully he can grow up as a good Christian. Hopefully, unless the elders get to him.
Here’s something else. Look up rev three ten, and if you have a concordance look up the word test(s) where it is used in the New Testament (Greek scrips), and then read those scrips, at least the little parts written in your concordance. You might get to thinking that the GT might not be meant to serve the purpose the WT has led us to believe it does. Check it out and tell me what you think.
@Messenger,
The references to test in the Greek scriptures mainly refer to the Pharisees testing Jesus, or Satan testing him.
Are you suggesting that the modern day Pharisees, the elders, are testing us? I can’t imagine the elders performing any useful purpose like that. They are just mongrels, whose position has gone to their heads.
@Ricardo,
There I wasn’t referring to elders or Pharisees being a test. Rev three ten speaks of a test coming upon those left on Earth (after Christians are taken) by way of the great tribulation. My point is that a test that people will undergo is not the same as people undergoing a condemnatory judgment and execution.
What would be the purpose of God testing people before killing them if he already judged them guilty? Tests are designed to assess the subjects that take those tests. That scrip suggests those living during the GT are not judged as guilty unless they fail the test. A different thought than WT doctrine which teaches people are separated by the time the gt starts, not during it. It looks like people may be separated during the GB, viewing what rev three ten says. And I don’t mean just JWs would be separated then, but all humans on Earth. Because as the scripture states the test comes upon the whole inhabited world. To test them all.
In the other post I suggested not discussing your problems with elders with your son. You can’t keep him from seeing some of those. With just the two of you, you might want to share with someone. I was suggesting not to share your feelings about elders with him. As he grows up it would contribute to destroying his faith in God.
@Messenger,
That is a really interesting way of understanding Rev 3:10. The tricky thing is to say it has an application in the future. It obviously had an application in the 1st and 2nd centuries (seems to mean a form of persecution, probably from the Roman powers against Christianity is my guess). If it did refer to today, how to know what that persecution would be, and when, if it did mean persecution? It may be a test of another kind. There are too many variables to really make a worthwhile prediction I should think.
That being said, if there is a test we need to pass, then there would need to be a judgement made as to who passes. So a judging would still need to be made.
As to my son, I don’t think he will have any respect for elders when he grows up. Unlike myself, I had that respect; now I have no respect. Hopefully he will not blame God. I don’t blame God. My life, and thus his life too, has not been messed up by anything God has done, or even by much that I have done. Most damage has been wrought by our loving shepherds.
Its accepted by Christians that the churches Christ referred to in Rev cpts two-three symbolize churches throughout Christian church history, from the 1st century up until the great tribulation.
Since the writing of the books that make up the Bible were not finished until the end of the first century, we should be able to find this “test that is to come upon the entire inhabited world” in the Bible as an event if it happened in the first century. But the Bible speaks of no test like that during the first century, does it? Nope. Therefore, in the first century, it did not happen.
Because Christ said his followers will be persecuted, this test “coming upon the entire inhabited world” could not have taken place in the second century either. Nor could it have taken place in any century up till now, for this reason. In Rev three ten Christ promises, “because of your endurance, I will keep you from the hour of test.” Since his followers suffer persecution, but Christ keeps them from this test, then this test that is testing everyone else, has to be after the church is taken to heaven. Because at no time until now has Christ shielded his followers from something so large as to effect all humanity. Look at WWI and WWII for instance. Did he shield them? No. The only way his followers could be kept from a test coming “upon all the inhabited world,” would be not to be on the world during the GT. Taken to heaven before the gt.
@ Ricardo
But my point in the other post was not when it takes place. The point I raised was the term “test.” If the GT is a test delivered to all humanity, then it doesn’t appear people are judged before that test, but some time during it, or after it.
Because a test is different then a condemnatory judgment.
then=than
@Messenger,
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t it the Watchtower teaching that the sheep and goats aren’t differentiated and judged until sometime during the great tribulation?
And if there is a test then there needs to be some judgement made about who passed the test and who didn’t. So if there is a test that must be passed in order to be sheep, then those who fail are called goats.
What am I not understanding here?
And so, the anointed are taken to heaven, and the rest of humanity are tested as to whether they are sheep or goats.
So, the point you are making?
And are the sheep not those obedient servants of Christ who go on to live on the earth forever?
@ Ricardo,
The old WT teaching in the sheep/goats parable is that JWs and WT were sharing with angels in separating S/G during the time WT considers to be the last days.
WT finally saw Christ does this at his second coming, and so now believes JWs are not sharing in that separating work. Its done by Christ, as the judge, and he sends angels to separate people, sheep/goats.
So far that part of WT’s new belief is correct…that’s easy to understand..from plain simple English.
And WT has also recently discovered the church that WT (but no other denomination) differentiates as its anointed class is already taken to heaven. So far WT is correct except, for WTs definition of the church (which is itself a huge mistake).
But here is where they probably go wrong. Again, I repeat the concept of the word “test.” To me it’s clear that the church was removed from the “test coming upon the entire inhabited Earth,” because it went to heaven….and to me it’s clear that this test is the great tribulation. If that’s incorrect then can you think of another function the GT has, but to distinguish people through tests?
WT claims that only those who believe in WT will make it through the gt test. So I ask, is the test only to separate WT believers into the two groups? If so, what’s its purpose. Christ knows who serves him now as he will then…why not straight to Har-Magedon? Let’s expand even further and include all Christians, is the test only to separate all Christians into the two groups? For your info other denominations believe all true Christians will already be in heaven. Other denomination don’t have these class distinctions that WT has. So, let’s assume all true Christians are up in heaven, and those denominations are correct. If that happens whose left on Earth…..All people left would have to be non-Christians in that case.
That would be the only reason for a test which consists of multiple tests. Christ would test people with miraculous events causing troubles, to see who will change and turn to him as their personal savior. Just as the Christians in heaven have. Just as the sinner who died next to him did.
Otherwise why some long drawn out GT containing a variety do tests? Christ knows who follows him now, he’ll know who follows him them. Why the trib if its not a test. Why the trib before Har-magedon (which is the execution). Its very possible the tribulation, while it kills some people, may bring others to Christ.
Dee2 used to argue with me that God is not fair because he hasn’t revealed himself to everyone alive at the same time, so they can believe and be saved. Maybe one purpose of the gt is that purpose. And if not for that reason and to test, for what purpose is the gt used? The execution occurs when Christ reveals himself at Har-Magedon.
I believe the sheep do live on the Earth Rev 21 and other scriptures say that. The mistake I see WT could have made is not allowing for atheist, and people that are not Christians before the test (gt) to change. I believe its very probable those who come out of the gt did not believe in Christ before it began. Hence why I had you look at rev three ten.
@Messenger,
This is going to take me a while to work out. This idea that all Christians go to heaven is one I haven’t contemplated cos I have never wanted to go to heaven, nor been given any indication I would be going there.
I believe there will be a definite testing of people at the GT, to allow even those who are not Christians the chance to show they live by Christian principles.
But why would some believers go to heaven because they were Christians before the GT and other believers just be on earth because they believed during the GT? Seems a little unfair.
Am I right in understanding that you see your future to be in heaven?
@ Ricardo,
About who goes to heaven and why:
The Bible says “many are called but few chosen.” That statement is about the ones going to heaven vs ones that don’t. I believe some of the ones that don’t are Christ’s followers also, considered Christians by onlookers and accepted by Christ.
Although there’s a lot written about the subject, it was pinned by just several people. In their writings they pinned some ideas that could be regarded as their personal feelings, not necessarily common to their whole group of heaven bound ones. At least not to the degree they had those feelings.
I think it was WS who wrote that he is not serving God for a reward, not even for everlasting life, but he does so because he wants to for other more noble reasons. I don’t believe those who are chosen go there because of their desire to. I believe they go because God picks them to fulfill an assignment.
Most churches teach all Christians go, but that’s not my belief.
Because of the scrip “God’s spirit bears witness with our spirit, that we are his children…and heirs with Christ for a promise,” then I think all those going are contacted first, and shown their future in some remarkable way that provides proof that is unmistakable to them that they will be with God.” As clearly as if you called your son to you. I believe that personal contact makes their appreciation for God stronger, because they recognize his love for them, as an individual, more than they believed it before their contact. And that’s where feel Paul’s words stem from (his desire for that prize), not from a huge desire to be in heaven, but their appreciation and love for Christ and God and to be with them.
So Ricardo my point about the test, I still think stands. Even though some of Christ’s followers I believe are left, and not taken, still Christ knows if they really serve him. Because of that knowledge the GT’s purpose must be to bring in people that were not serving at its start. I could be wrong, but if so, I see no other purpose for the GT. For this reason, as you brought out fairness. Christ is taking the heavenly bound away to escape God’s wrath poured out via the gt, because he doesn’t want them to experience it. The only reason any of his friends would be left should be because they were not taken for this heavenly job. Still no need for them to suffer the gt. So why have it unless to bring in the remaining ones? People who were not following Christ
Not proof reading this.
@Messenger,
I have similar views about what will happen at the GT. I don’t understand what WT teaches because WT seems schizophrenic in their discussions. They seem to think all good people will become JW’s to be saved, and that just isn’t happening, and why any good person would want to join the JW’s I don’t know.
My understanding is that God will not destroy any good people, just the irreformable, or incorrigible in WT speak. Like what God told Abraham in regard to Sodom and Gomorrah. He wouldn’t destroy any good people.
And the Christians, including JW’s will need to be tested as to what is in their hearts.
So the forces who are anti-God’s principles, which we see today (in Australia breaking up Church meetings and anti anything Christian), will get community support behind them and put tremendous pressure on society to accept their standards. They will paint God’s standards as being biased, whatever-ist, whatever-phobic, unreasonable and unacceptable. Those in the community, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist who agree with these debased standards or who give in will have failed the test. Those who resist this attack, even if they are not Christian but they follow these personal standards in life which agree with Christian standards, will be saved. How will they know about Jesus (because belief in Christ is necessary for salvation)? They will hear about him by the Christians in their midst, and because their personal standards are the same as Christian standards they will accept Jesus immediately (like the jailer who asked Peter what he and his family must do to be saved).
That’s my thought. Thus, JW’s who think they are so superior will be tested as to what their personal standards really are. Thus, being a good JW will not mean salvation, but being a good Christian will.
How does that sound to you? Is there anything you would like to add?
Hi Ricardo,
Just to add two things. I’m not Christ, so what I expressed is what I believe will happen based on a combination of scriptures. The crucial part, to accept Christ as savior, all Christians agree on. During what periods people are allowed to do so (e.g. GT, pre GT) is not agreed upon by all Christians, neither is who goes to heaven.
I also want to state WT’s position, which is the main reason I asked you consider Rev three ten. WT’s plan is to have JW preach a message of condemnation, instead of its current message of salvation once the GT starts. Because WT teaches those who haven’t accepted it’s theology by the time the GT starts will be victims of it. WT claims the Bible indicates that a very limited number will convert after the GT starts. So, WT essentially teaches if a person is not a JW when the GT starts he/she is condemned. At times WT will skate that thought a little, but that is really what it teaches.
@Messenger,
Obviously you and I agree that the WT teaching about the need for everybody to be Witnesses in order to be saved is wrong. It is necessary for people to be true Christians. Is it Christian to think that so many people in India, China and the Middle East will be wiped out just because they are not Witnesses? Can we just dismiss their future because we are Witnesses and so we are safe? Unfortunately many Witnesses are able to do that, which is a very unloving way to think.
Outandabout says that in the West Christianity is dying off, which is true. But it is dying off from fairly high numbers to start with. Christianity is growing in Africa and Asia, which is where the greater percentage of young people are living, so obviously Christianity has a long way to go yet.
We are often told that Jehovah looks for the good in people, and I am sure he sees so much good in people who are not even Witnesses, not even Christian for that matter.
@ Ricardo,
The biblical gospel message is not God saves good people, as you believe. I don’t want to engage in a long discussion about this. But being good has nothing to do with it.
If you stand before Christ on you’re own merits (being good) you will be condemned. Accepting Christ means accepting God’s grace. Grace has nothing to do with you being good, or following Bible principles. Look up the word’s definition. Please read Romans you should see it.
WT’s teachings are apostate. Those always have been from the start. WT’s are antichrist teachings. Any teaching that does not teach the truth about Christ comes from the worldly deceptive spirit of antichrist, and is demonic. Its purpose is to mislead.
Without looking to Christ’s sacrifice to cover sins, there is no salvation. Read the Bible yourself. You’re surrounded by apostate theology and other apostate teachings. I suggest getting another Bible. Read everything the apostles wrote. The truth is clear to see and simple if you look and really want to see it. Its simpler than you know, because you’ve been taught it was something else. You were taught a message that is more complicated.
Best wishes buddy!
@Messenger,
Okay, it depends how we define the meaning of ‘good person’. I think we have discussed this before. As you say, faith in Jesus is the only prerequisite for salvation. As scriptures like Acts 3:19 (repent therefore and get your sins blotted out…) and Heb 10:26 (there is no sacrifice for sins left for those sinning willfully) then true faith in Jesus means repenting for our sins.
If a person repents of his sins, he is then displaying Christian behaviour. Phil 2:12: work out your own salvation. That is, keep displaying Christian behaviour while having faith in Jesus sacrifice.
Some people who do not know the Bible’s principles may have personal standards matching those principles. The only thing lacking is a belief in Jesus Christ.
Such a person (what I would call a ‘good’ person) at the time of the GT would find it easy to become Christian and thus on the road to salvation. Such a person would not be destroyed by Jehovah, He would give them the opportunity to hear the requirements, by the preaching of other Christians.
@ Ricardo
Again salvation has nothing to do with being good. The reason is because that idea, and the attempt to fulfill it and gain salvation that way, and/or teach it denies God’s means for salvation. Anyone denying God’s means for salvation will not receive it.
Your idea of “good” or living by what you consider “Christian principles” is only taught in the Bible because many people we teach are not Christians…they are learning to be Christians if that.
What if the only Christians in the first century that existed were the apostles? Do you think they would have given all those instructions about how to live? No they wouldn’t have, because the need would not have existed. One who follows Christ, follows Christ. That’s what he’s judged by, forgiveness because God does not hold his sins against him.
No matter how good you think people are, to God no human is good. That’s why being good will not save. The only question open to me asks during what time periods will God accept people still turning to Christ?
Logically this good works lead to salvation scenario would not work for God’s purpose. For instance, there are a lot of people on this site that may be as good as you are, but that doesn’t mean they will follow God. If they don’t follow God why would God allow them to exist when he sets things straight. Isn’t that what already exists, each one deciding what is good, albeit conforming to demands forced upon them by society? If God creates a society, doesn’t it make sense he would enforce demands? To believe he would accept those who do not agree to those and thus Christ sounds stupid to me…against all common sense, no matter how good they claimed to be.
Here’s another example. I used to hire and fire people. What I wanted were people that would consistently do their jobs. I didn’t care how good they were in other areas. If they didn’t do the job, I fired them. They could not otherwise be good enough for me not to fire them. Plus no one is good enough to please God. Unless he forgives them (by undeserved grace) they will die. And unless they accept him and his son, why should he forgive them? I wouldn’t. Working for me in my company they’d be fired. Plain as that. Someone may not like it and cry about it. But that’s really the facts of life, even right now on this planet. People that oppose God either don’t believe he exists, or they rebel against him if they do that. People who accept Christ don’t, so God extends their lives with his gifts of life (their works did not earn their spots).
Most teachings against these simple concepts, if presented by people who believe in God are smoke screens. Like God told the rebellious Jews, go tell that nonsense to your governor, and see what happens.
These are not my ideas, they clearly laid out in the New Testament. As we were JWs these simple concepts were not clearly taught to us. The truth was obscured with beliefs in behaviors the WT teaches are necessary for salvation.
So Ricardo, my guess is Christ will give those people you mention a chance to accept him during the GT. I don’t see another purpose for the GT. But I could be wrong. To me that point is not clearly laid out in scripture.
But if that is the case whose to say those so called good people are the only ones given that chance. Maybe all alive will be given it…because people are not saved by works. Works are merely an outgrowth of belief.
If I told every person commenting on this site to meet me at my house two weeks from now and I’d give them a billion dollars, many that believed that would perform works to get here. And yet as WS brought out that is not the primary reason real Christians follow God. Friendship is their biggest motivator, the reasons WS described the second, and God’s promises the third.
@Messenger,
I meant to get back to you sooner, but a big cyclone went through here and distracted my attention.
When Jehovah was talking to Abraham (at, say, Genesis 18:23-26), and Abraham made a point about Jehovah’s character, “Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked?”, Jehovah replied that he would not bring the righteous to ruin. There must have been something about the personal principles that righteous people held which differentiated them from the wicked. These personal principles thus drove their actions. Whether I use the word good, or righteous, the meaning is those people who Jehovah in this verse refers to who he said he would not bring to ruin. However you want to describe them. Jehovah used the word righteous, a word not used generally in our day to day life. I like to think of them as ‘good’ people.
Just as Jehovah wouldn’t destroy those type of people in the past, so too we can have confidence that he will not in the modern times also. On this basis, I have confidence that Jehovah will help such ones to find out about Jesus so they can put their faith in him before the final judgement cut off.
I’m not referring to removing someone’s privileges, in which case they are notified. I refer to the stab in the back BS that frequently goes down in some halls, of repeatedly, and purposely not calling on certain publishers that were never spoken to about any misconduct.
Whip It,
Its a very clever an interesting way they tricked us when looked at objectively, with no attached emotions. The scriptures WT used to point the finger at, and to accuse others, are the very scriptures that speak of WT’s misdeeds.
Best wishes brother Whip It!
an=and
@ Whip It
I’m glad you can get on with your life and appreciate the more meaningful things and people who love you.
But with respect I personally can’t see how you can be completely happy when you HAVE to hide this part of life.I am really in the same boat fading well and appreciating the priorities in life but I will never be fully happy at an organisation having a hold on me no matter how small it is.I would be more happy to write a d/s letter breaking all ties,but i can’t for family still in.If they ever waken up my d/s letter will be straight in there and complete freedom will be found.Until then I will grin and bare it and TRY to be happy.
You could be there without them having a hold on you. Christ proved that, and I (messenger) prove it. I feel no need or pressure to share in anything I don’t want to. What are they going to do? And the little they can do, what does it mean? Whip It is under no obligation to feel they can make any demands on him. If I’m not, he’s not. If Christ wasn’t no one is. That’s the point I make. I’m no different than anyone, except that I realize I’m under not obligation to answer to WT or its reps. Neither is Whip It. Whip it already knows, and has shown he knows that by growing a beard.
Who are going to write the letters to President Putin? These people I see around here? What a shame!! This reminds me the day when Jehovah sent frogs to invade Egypt: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ucduEQqA9DM/VfH1YcT-jvI/AAAAAAAABqg/-aYqQnSebQs/s1600/Pharaoh-frogs.jpg
Imagine Pharaoh being humiliated by frogs!!!! Unlike some presidents in the “Dark Continent”, I hope the flood of letters does not shake Putin!
Just a couple of examples from JW Publications:
This was written by the Governing body in:
*** w90 1/1 p. 15 Persecution Continues in Burundi ***
The address of the president of Burundi is:
His Excellency Major Pierre Buyoya
President of the Republic of Burundi
Bujumbura
REPUBLIC OF BURUNDI
*** w68 2/1 p. 79 Shocking Religious Persecution in Malawi ***
Letters of protest may be directed to:
His Excellency
Dr. H. Kamuzu Banda
President of Malawi
P.O. Box 53
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. J. D. Msonthi, M.P.
Minister of Transportation and Communication
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. G. W. Kumtumanji, M.P.
Minister of Local Government
and Minister of Health
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. M. Q. Y. Chibambe, M.P.
Regional Minister for the Northern Region
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. A. M. Nyasulu, M.P.
Minister of State
in the Ministry of External Affairs
P.O. Box 943,
Blantyre, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. G. Chakuamba, M.P.
Minister of Education
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. Aleke Banda
Minister of Economic Affairs and of Works
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. J. T. Kumbeweza, M.P.
Regional Minister for Central Region
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. J. Z. U. Tembo, M.P.
Minister of Finance
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. A. A. Muwalo
Minister of State in the President’s Office
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
The Hon. A. B. J. Chiwanda
Minister of Labor
Zomba, Malawi, Central Africa
@Jado,
You’ve been back on that website jw.org, haven’t you? I told you to keep away from there, it will do your head in. And now look what has happened. Your first post not mentioning sex! What is going on with you, man?
@Ricardo, You want me to mention sex here? Let me try. All those who are going write the “Letters of Protest” have a problem in their psychoSEXual development: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/0c/ef/a50cefb4fa0e229eb496faafd02402eb.jpg
“Jehovah” wrote : “While not all psychiatrists and analysts are atheists or agnostics, many are. One study revealed that over half of the analysts interviewed agreed with Sigmund Freud’s view that belief in God was “infantile” and out of harmony “with reality.” Many believe that man is driven by “animal instincts inherited by man in his evolution from the lower forms of life.” (See w75 4/15 p. 255)!
Lol
Here is my compilation of letters of protest from Jehovah’s Witnesses which should remind us of the frogs’ attack against Egypt:
*** w11 10/1 p. 14 “Defiance That Commands Respect” ***
Witnesses from about 50 countries sent Hitler some 20,000 letters and telegrams protesting the mistreatment of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
*** jv chap. 19 p. 316 Growing Together in Love ***
The president of Liberia was deluged with letters of protest from around the world, and the U.S. State Department intervened because a U.S. citizen was involved.
*** yb11 p. 244 Estonia ***
1949 Witnesses write letters of protest to Stalin
*** jv chap. 19 p. 316 Growing Together in Love ***
When Awake! magazine exposed the inquisitional methods being employed against the Witnesses in Spain in 1961, letters of protest deluged the authorities there
*** yb83 p. 84 Australia ***
Before his death, Brother MacGillivray had begun legal proceedings in the High Court of Australia to challenge the validity of the ban. At the same time, letters of protest and petitions were sent to various officials in a steady stream
*** yb85 p. 95 Jamaica and the Cayman Islands ***
After more letters of protest and appeals, both locally and in England (since the country was still under British rule), the government finally agreed, on July 19, 1954, to allow the literature to come in from the United States as a gift.
*** yb92 p. 193 Kenya and Nearby Countries ***
Many people outside Rwanda sent letters of protest to responsible officials. A radio announcement mentioned that on certain days 500 letters in behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses reached the government.
*** yb92 p. 101 Kenya and Nearby Countries ***
Though many letters of protest were written from all over the world, the missionaries were forced to leave the country. Arrests and interrogations followed. Now came a period of testing and sifting. Some became fearful and left the truth. A few turned traitor.
*** yb95 p. 106 Cyprus ***
Government ministers are receiving many letters of protest from human rights organizations asking that the Cypriot authorities resolve the issue of conscientious objection
*** yb09 p. 171 Lands of the Former Yugoslavia ***
Witnesses in the United States, Canada, the British Isles, and Europe wrote thousands of letters of protest to the government in Yugoslavia.
*** w53 3/15 p. 168 Gold Coast Stoops to Religious Discrimination ***
At the present time, many letters of protest have been written requesting steps to be taken to stop such discrimination, and these are being addressed to His Excellency, The Governor and the Prime Minister, Dr. Kwame Nkrumah, and other government officials.
and
*** g76 3/8 p. 23 A Conspiracy Thwarted in “the Land Down Under” ***
Australians Send Letters of Protest
Some were appalled at the high-handed action taken against Jehovah’s witnesses. The Australian government received the following letter of protest from the Acting Secretary of the State Railway Workshop committee:
“By special resolution my committee has instructed me to protest strongly on the ban against a religious body, commonly known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.
*** yb73 p. 129 The British Isles ***
Subscribers to The Watchtower wrote letters of protest to their respective members of Parliament. Eventually the Ministry capitulated and undertook to remove the ban on February 28, 1945. However, not until there was a change in the Ministry were Bibles and other literature released for circulation.
Re: JV page 316: Spain’s use of inquisitorial methods. JW elders use inquisitorial methods. Awake 97 May 8, the article on the Inquisition states that the Inquisition did not guarantee the accused any justice, that suspicion, accusations and even hearsay, were enough to summon a person before the Inquisitor. Prosecution witnesses were kept secret, and the defence lawyer, when there was one ran the risk of infamy and losing his post, so the accused was effectively defenceless. The activity of the Roman Inquisition was surrounded by the utmost secrecy.
Does this remind you of anyone?
I suggest we deluge WT with letters complaining about the inquisitorial nature of the dreadful judicial system.
@Sarah,
I’m in. With pleasure.
She said Spain Ricardo, and the Roman Empire doing those inquisitions. This might give you an in for claiming racial discrimination, since Ricardo is a name of Latin origin. Maybe the elders are targeting Latin people for this type of treatment. It might open the door for a whole different type of lawsuit against the org-racial discrimination.
Hey WT….give me those files of JC cases. I want to know what percentage of Latin men and women you judged. Shucks! I should have gone to law school.
Just fooling Ricardo, don’t take that seriously.
Bravo GB on your letter writing campaign. Good way to give a free worldwide jw database to the Russians(my wife signed name and address).WTBTS should get a big $thankyou$ from the postal systems.could pay for a couple of abuse settlements,or have the letters and postage money sent to HQ to be forwarded.profit prophet.my mind has been warped for 47 years
I was thinking the same thing. By all R&F giving their names and personal addresses they are basically asking the Russian government to acknowledge them personally, and they just may give them such attention, might not be positive. That will fuel the persecution complex. I really think this was a smokescreen for the ARC hearing…keep them busy and occupied in this ultra urgent situation and the ARC goes away. Keeps the “end” closer than ever. In years past they supplied a sample letter for similar campaigns and you copied it. But this time it was pretty wide open for the friends to write whatever they wanted. You can be rest assured that there will be some self-righteous kooks who will lamblast the government officials just like Rutherford did when he wrote to Hitler. I’m willing to bet the GB didn’t write any letters, they wouldn’t be that imprudent now would they?
Garbage in Watchtower; Garbage coming out of Watchtower.
Great point Shibboleth I would put money on the self appointed priests not putting their names to any letters to Russia. The rnf are setting themselves up for future trouble if they give away information it will be stored away for future reference and they will have forgotten all about this and wonder how officials know their business. Are the sheep so naïve as to think governments don’t talk to each other and share information The sheep are walking into a tricky situation all in the duped name of faith in the gb. Cheers all Ruthlee
So if Putin and Trump are found to be cahoots with each other and Mr.P gives Mr.T all those names and addresses…. Would Mr.T then have them listed as possible terrorists?
Far fetched, but not outside the realm of all possibilities. I for one would not want my address given to Putin. Aren’t they supposed to use the KH address when sending letters like these?
They used to use the KH address in times past, but this time they specifically said to use your personal or business address. Probably to remove the org far from the repercussions that are sure to come. After all, these are the “personal” feelings of the JWs worldwide…imagine if everyone enclosed the letter of instructions with their campaign letters, Ouch!
Too bad all those people, at least those in the USA don’t use one of the NY Bethel addresses as a return address, and sign all letters Anthony Morris III. With the salutation, “Come and get me, my big brother protects me!”
Totally agree. Have thought it all along. It is a trap. Just like in Hitler’s day. With the feet made of clay and iron coming from Daniel’s statue prophecy, that could mean that the iron representing the Roman Empire, is in fact the Third Reich syndrome returning. Hitler’s Third Reich idea was based on the Roman Empire. Could get really nasty. That is what I have figured out anyway in working out the prophecies with fresh eyes. Witnesses are sitting ducks. And also for the coming last world government too. Mind you, all Christians who serve Christ will be persecuted, but who wants to go down for that lot of elitists in their compound in upstate NY?
Messenger, sorry for the delay, i am using a work computer so don’t get to check this site as often as i hope,
i will try to respond to you, as an elder & ms for 20 Years i never heard anything about beards, but somehow knew that it would hit the fan when i started to grow mine, we even asked a CO once & he said that we could still have privileges & talks but not outside our congo, when i did walk in for the 1st time i was actually terrified, this was also like lifting a veil from my mind, at that instance i smelt a cult, the power they have over the mind, i was often an outspoken elder/ms & latter discovered that i was a marked man, then i was refused to give a number 4 talk & then the secret shunning began, i still have elder friends in other places & it would seem that this is an isolated problem, the Beard WT was completely done incorrectly, elders answering from their own minds & not the printed page, i cannot see any spirit here, but hey it never was here, so the 20 years i spent was actually a waste of time, but as said the by product is still a happy life/family & my kids are now in better places, i know that a lot of you are saying how can you be happy in something you don’t believe in, that is my lot in life at the moment, one day we will leave this place, thats if they don’t close it 1st for lack of interest, thats another thing i sit sometimes at the KH & notice the dwindling numbers & the remaining ones getting oldedr & older & have a little chuckle to my self. bit of a rave i know, but thanks for listening.
Whip It
I know what it feels like to sit in the kingdom hall and know the WT org is out of touch with accurate Bible information and Christian ways. Hopefully you still have faith in God and Christ. When I’m in the hall I frequently read other articles or from the Bible, because the meetings cover info at an extremely slow pace. I read something else while still picking up what’s under consideration. That might help you from being bored.
Whatever your current belief is, I consider you a brother, and I hope one day we both are in a better place that lasts for us. I feel I’ve seen the proof, but I don’t expect anyone to believe what I would not accept as true from someone else. In the next life I’ll look some of you guys up. It’s a pleasure sharing with you.
The reason why I contacted you is because of what you stated about meeting conductors not calling on you. I’ve seen that practiced by single elders, and groups of them, since the mid 70s thru now. I’ve seen it practiced in several counties, a hundred miles apart. This shunning is done to members who are not violating WT policies, but in some way upset a group of elders, or a single elder. Are you aware of this practice, and do you know its origin? I wrote the Society about it once. Naturally they apologized and investigated the accusation. But do you know if they ever approved the practice? How do you think it got started? How do you think it spread to such a large area? Elders and their families have been shunned. One elder told me, “that’s what we used to do, but we don’t do it anymore.” He was lying of course, or there would have been no need for that conversation.
Thanks for your attention brother.
Who writes JW Publications? I guess “Jehovah” does. 31 years ago he/she/it wrote: “The Bible was written long before anyone knew anything about modern psychology and the psychosexual developmental process,” states Dr. Chesen.” (w86 5/1 p. 4)!
If the very “writer of the Bible” acknowledge its being obsolete, then, what is there for? The wise will make a step ahead and discover the use of the Bible today: https://www.google.rw/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=Bible+psycho-sexual+process
I guess a sovereign country should not allow a foreign company to take hostage of its people, allowed to split families and boasts about it. Moreover, how a country can allow unethical collection of data on its peoples. Can Russian ask the WTS to share the data it holds about Russian and get a positive response?
All the world should share the shame of having its population manipulated and subjugated under “psychological warfare”. Who is spared?
Jado no one ever claimed Jehovah writes the WT publications. Any documentation you find that suggests that is hyperbole, just exaggerated claims to impress the readers. Those statements are not to be taken literally, and if the writers did mean them literally it means those writers were nuts. No one believes that, not even JWs, not even WT orgs.
That makes your claim about the writer of the Bible invalid. Your point would only be valid if the writer of the WT and the Bible were one in the same. But they are not.
Sometimes you read on this site that some WT writer claimed God writes those publications or inspires those. I say, poppy-cock. The WT has never claimed to be written by God. WT claims it is not inspired. Always has. Russell never even claimed to have any supernatural contact. So how could his writings have been inspired?
messenger, if Watchtower isn’t directed by Jehovah, then why do you listen to them?
Caroline if you had a court case to prove I listen to WT, you would absolutely loose. I could merely submit the comments I’ve made on this site which prove that claim false.
Facts not fiction please.
Anyway, where is Facts not Fiction? I don’t remember reading from him/her for a while. I like that name.
And ImGonnaBurn. A catchy name, but it makes me feel sorry for her, thinking she might believe that. You won’t burn ImGonnaBurn.
No Caroline if I listened to the WT I wouldn’t be making these comments. And if I really listened to it I wouldn’t even be here, since that is a spankable offense.
I do listen to Christ. He walked among rule makers and rule breakers, but that didn’t mean he agreed with them, or, as you say, listened to them, in the way you mean it.
Remember the George W Bush line, “Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on me?” A blooper from W.
I don’t just read these comments here for pleasure. Once I hit some key on the computer by mistake I believe it was, but it could have been on purpose; I can’t remember now. And I was taken to a site that showed how many hits many sites got a month. Most of them were commercial business, big ones that everyone knows like google. This site (JW Survey) was listed as getting around 190,000 hits a month, JW.org was listed as getting about 2,000,000 hits a month.
Anyway, that’s one of the reasons I’m here. Guess how many hits I give JW.org a month? Zero. I very rarely click on that site. Maybe about once every two months for about 10 seconds.
I believe Truth is spread over many highways (radio, internet, face to face, and yes churches). How many of those highways can we, you and I be on, that receive 190,000 viewers a month? Understand?
messenger, scholars have come to the conclusion since at least the 1800’s that the Moloch mentioned in Acts 7:43 that Stephen was saying that the Jews had worshipped since Moses was Yahweh or Jehovah and I absolutely believe that Rutherford knew that and when he adopted the name “Jehovah’s Witnesses” in the 1930’s, he knew what he was doing.
You can tell by his pictures that he knew he was tricking those people into adopting that name, making them think they were really special in that they were the only ones who were actually worshipping the only “true” god, when in reality, they were worshipping a false god Moloch, the god that the ancients threw their babies into to be burnt as human sacrifices to appease their god to bring them good crops and win wars.
Just by looking at Rutherford’s pictures, he seems evil to me at least.
This is from the Encyclopedia Britannica Micropaedia 1976 page 982 under the topic Moloch or Molech:
“a deity to whom child sacrifices were offered by the Israelites in the days of the monarchy. Though Moloch is identified in 1 Kings 11:5 as Milcom, the national god of the Ammonites, many biblical scholars believe that Molcom not any of several other foreign deities who had similar names (e.g., Muluk) and were worshipped in neighbouring regions. Rather, it was to Yahweh himself, God of the Jewish people, that human sacrirfice was offered, especially during the reigns of the apostate kings Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Menasseh (2 Kings 21:6). Later Israelites apparently were so appalled by the practice that they tried to blot out their shame by changing the name of the god from Yahweh to Moloch (or Molech), as though human sacrifices had been offered only to a foreign deity.”
If you do any research, I’d research Moloch first to see who you are worshipping. Go to Wikipedia and look up the references and you will see that scholars have come to that conclusion since at least the 1800’s but Jehovah’s Witnesses are discouraged from finding out who they even worship but if you think about it seriously, don’t you think it odd that you would worship a god who asked Abraham to offer up his son Isaac as a burnt sacrifice to him to see just how much he loved him?
Think about it.
Thanks Caroline.
Caroline, just a suggestion, I’d say you should read the scriptures before and around the ones you site before making such a claim. And you can check out Lev chp 18 and Duet chp 18 also.
Those scholars you referred to obviously have extremely poor reading comprehension. Too bad they couldn’t have been a JW back then. At least then they would have learned to read. I suggest giving those scrips another look. The Bible speaks about all sorts of things, so what. It doesn’t condone passing kids through fire, and it speaks against it. And its easy to understand Moloch wasn’t the god symbolized by the tetragrammaton. Get real. I’m not siting the scrips…look em up if you want…but yours is a false claim nevertheless, and very easily proved false. I’m not getting into a long discussion over nothing. So, if you want to challenge my assertion please cite the scrips to prove your point. You won’t find any, unless you attempt to present some scrips out of context.
siting=citing
Acts 7:42, 43
42 So God turned away from them and handed them over to offer sacred service to the army of heaven,+ just as it is written in the book of the Prophets: ‘It was not to me that you made offerings and sacrifices for 40 years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel? 43 But it was the tent of Moʹloch+ and the star of the god Reʹphan that you took up, the images that you made to worship them. So I will deport you beyond Babylon.’+
Ezekiel 20:25, 26
25 I also allowed them to follow regulations that were not good and judicial decisions by which they could not have life.+ 26 I let them become defiled by their own sacrifices—when they made every firstborn child pass through the fire+—in order to make them desolate, so that they would know that I am Jehovah.”’
Amos 5:20-25
20 Will not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light;
Will it not have gloom, and not brightness?
21 I hate, I despise your festivals,+ And I take no pleasure in the aroma of your solemn assemblies. 22 Even if you offer me whole burnt offerings and gift offerings, I will find no pleasure in them;+ And I will not look with favor on your communion sacrifices of fattened animals.+23 Spare me the din of your songs; And let me not hear the melodies of your stringed instruments.+ 24 Let justice flow down like waters,+ And righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. 25 Did you bring me sacrifices and gift offerings For those 40 years in the wilderness, O house of Israel?+
Jeremiah 7:21-23
21 “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, says, ‘Go ahead, add your whole burnt offerings to your other sacrifices, and eat the flesh yourselves.+ 22 For on the day I brought your forefathers out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak with them or command them concerning whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.+ 23 But I did give them this command: “Obey my voice, and I will become your God, and you will become my people.+ You must walk in all the way that I command, so that it may go well with you.”’+
Deuteronomy 32:17
17 They were sacrificing to demons, not to God,+
To gods that they had not known, New ones that came along recently, To gods that your forefathers did not know.
Exodus 22:29, 30
29 “You must not hesitate to make offerings from your abundant produce and the overflow of your presses.*+ The firstborn of your sons you are to give to me.+ 30 This is what you should do with your bull and your sheep:+ Seven days it will continue with its mother. On the eighth day, you are to give it to me.+
Leviticus 27:28, 29
28 “‘But no devoted thing that a man devotes unconditionally* to Jehovah from his belongings may be sold or bought back, whether from mankind or animals or the field he possesses. Every devoted thing is something most holy to Jehovah.+ 29 Furthermore, no condemned* person who is set apart for destruction may be redeemed.+ He should be put to death without fail.+
Exodus 13:12, 13
12 you must devote to Jehovah every firstborn male,* as well as every male firstling of the livestock that you acquire. The males belong to Jehovah.+ 13 Every firstling donkey you are to redeem with a sheep, and if you do not redeem it, then you must break its neck. And every firstborn male of your sons you are to redeem.+
Exodus, 13:2, Exodus 22:29, Exodus 34:19,20, Numbers 3:12,13 and Joshua 7:15.
In Judges Jephthah offered up his daughter as a burnt sacrifice to Jehovah if Jehovah would help him win a war and Jehovah listened to Jephthah to help him win a war and Jephthah offered up his daughter as a burnt sacrifice to Jehovah for winning the war.
The New World Translation reworded the King James Bible to make it look like Jephthah did not kill his daughter but he did.
Jehovah asked Abraham to kill his son and offer him up as a burnt sacrifice to him and there are no accounts in the Bible to indicate that Isaac ever talked to his father again so many scholars believe that Abraham actually did kill Isaac and burnt him up as a sacrifice to Jehovah and that the accounts of Isaac’s life after that were later added to make people think that Abraham did not actually kill his son because it was too abhorrent.
Judah wanted his daughter in law burned and that was long before the temple was set up in the wilderness by Moses and the account of Judah says he went to what he thought was a “temple” prostitute.
Joshua 24:2 says that Abraham was worshipping other “gods” on the other side of the River when Jehovah called him from his people. Notice it says “gods” and Abraham went into Canaan and had many many children and offspring in Canaan and it was those same offspring that Moses was commanded to go into and kill off all those offspring of Abraham’s.
messenger, there was a Watchtower article in 1958 called “Baalism Ancient Materialistic Religion of Canaan” and in that article it talked about how in 1929 there wasn’t much known about the ancient Canaanite (where Abraham was) religions but they discovered in that year they excavated a site in Ugarit with many artifacts and hundreds of clay tablets from the time the Israelites would have lived there (during the time of Abraham) and discovered and deciphered those tablets and found that the language was very similar to to the Hebrew language and they were able to learn about all those ancient Canaanite gods and their chief god was El and so when you read how Jacob’s name was changed from Jacob to Israel, it all makes sense. There are many names in the Bible ending in El and beginning with El and that was common to use their God’s name in their name. Jacob even named the place where he wrestled with Jehovah and called it Bethel which means house of god (El). Look up Bethel in the Insight book and you will see what I am talking about. Bethel was the center of “false” worship, not the center of pure worship in Canaan.
So, messenger put two and two together. Acts 7:42,43 says that it was to Moloch that the Israelites were worshipping during the 40 years while they were in the wilderness and Stephen said it was to angels that they were worshipping and it was the angel “Jehovah” who appeared to Moses in the wilderness and gave him all those laws about sacrificing their animals and children to him but another god comes along and says that no he didn’t accept those animals and human sacrifices and another god (the true god?) says that it was his idea to make them sacrifice their children and that it wasn’t a good idea for him to make them do that.
Can you trust that that Bible is actually inspired? I can’t and why would I offer up my child’s life in want of a blood transfusion to a God (Jehovah) who was in fact a Canaanite god who wanted and accepted human baby sacrifices to be burnt up to him?
If you are offering up your life or your child’s life to the god of the Bible, you should first find out if that God is actually real or not.
That’s what I’d do before dying for that God ever again.
Hi messenger. Can you point me to the scriptures that you were talking about? I am quite familiar with those scriptures where it said that it never came into Jehovah’s heart that the Israelites should have their children pass through the fire to other gods but that doesn’t mean they should pass through the fire to Him. Please read the scriptures I sited again.
What about the scripture where Jehovah said that the Israelites would be happy to rip the babies out of mother’s stomach and smash them against the wall? (Psalm 137:9)
I read that Jehovah asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as a burnt sacrifice to him and that proves it to me. If an angel stopped Abraham from killing Isaac it doesn’t take away from the fact that Jehovah asked him to do it.
If Abraham was not used to his god asking such a horrid thing to do to his son, he should have said no but he didn’t blink an eye and immediately took his kid to slaughter him and offer him up as a burnt sacrifice to his god.
There are only on tiny fragment of the original manuscripts where you can see the tetragrammaton. Even the New World Translation says that in the appendix of the reference Bible. There is no way to prove that it was in the Bible 7,000 times like what people want to think.
During those thousands of years, all those manuscripts were hand written by thousands of people and no two are alike. Even the purple Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures printed by the Society says this in the forward:
The original writings of the Christian Greek Scriptures, commonly called “The New Testament,” were inspired. No translation of these sacred writings into another language except by the original writers, is inspired. In copying the inspired originals by hand the element of human frailty entered in, and so none of the thousands of copies extant today in the original language are perfect duplicates. The result is that no two copies are exactly alike. Since such has been the result with the mere handwritten copies of the Scriptures, much more is it true that no version of them into another language by an uninspired translator would be perfect. It could not accurately render the precise meaning of the inspired originals. Especially so, when the translation is made from an imperfect copy.”
When it comes to the original Hebrew scriptures, all that is in existence today is a very small fragment about the size of a credit card where you can see the tetragrammaton.
In the days of the ancient Israelites, child sacrifice was common. It is found in artifacts and is an established fact. It is also an established fact that the Bible is full of how the ancient Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch.
Just because some of those scriptures say that it did not come into Jehovah’s heart, does not take away the fact that those Israelites were sacrificing their children to their god Jehovah/Yahweh even if they were mistaken in their worship by doing it.
We as Witnesses and Christians in general just assume that the god that they worship would never ask for any child to be sacrificed but read Numbers chapter 31 again and ask yourself why would Jehovah ask Moses to go into Midian and kill all those people, man, woman and child and only keep the virgin girls for themselves? In Numbers chapter 31, it says that after killing off all those adults and little boys that those men had left over 32,000 virgin girls. Just think how many unarmed people those people killed in order to end up with 32,000 virgin girls?
In the end, 32 of those virgin girls were presented to the high priest. What would the high priest do with those 32 virgin girls? It was the high priest who officiated at the burnt sacrifices to Jehovah.
We as Witnesses were always taught about the walls of Jericho falling down but how many times did we learn about how the Israelites went into Jericho and hacked to death every man, woman and child with swords? What about all the millions of other people they killed in Canaan because Jehovah told them to do it?
If you follow the life of Abraham, after Sarah died, he had many wives and concubines and many children from those other wives and concubines and the Bible says that Jehovah blessed them and they all lived in Canaan.
Abraham was already a “great” nation by the time that Moses took Jacob’s family out of Egypt back to Canaan and it was their own relatives that they slaughtered, including the Midianites. In Genesis 25:2, the Bible says that one of Abraham’s sons was named Midian.
When we read the Bible, if we didn’t “get” or understand a certain scripture, we were told to go to Watchtower indexes and look up their explanation and the Society always had a way of explaining away difficult to understand scriptures such as the account of Jephthah and even some other religions like to explain away that account about Jephthah offering to kill the first thing that came out of his house and offer it up as a burnt sacrifice to his god if that god would help him kill all those “relatives” of his (Abraham’s offspring) by implying that his daughter was never allowed to marry but it is because they are also explaining away passages that imply that Jehovah helped Jephthah kill all those people because of Jephthah’s oath.
If the Bible came right out and said that Jehovah asked for and accepted that young girl being offered up as a burnt sacrifice, how many people would worship that god, knowing what we know today?
I think Bible writers had an agenda when they translated those scriptures by hand and if you know anything about ancient history, you will see that the Catholic church worked hand in hand with the Roman government in using the Bible to control the people.
Back in the 4th century Constantine converted to Christianity because the majority of the people at that time were Christians and so he knew he couldn’t kill them all so he decided to make it the state religion and he used the Catholic Church to be his way of doing it. It was Constantine who decided what was going to be accepted as “inspired” and what would be included in our Bibles today. It was Constantine who decided that Jehovah and Jesus were one and the same in the trinity doctrine.
Up until the 4th century, there are no original manuscripts but from that time on, there are thousands upon thousands of those manuscripts. That is because there were Catholic monks who sat in monasteries and that is all they did all day long was write the scriptures. Up until that time there is not even one to be found.
What I am saying is that why sacrifice your life for that?
After doing some meaningful research on how we got the Bible, I no longer take it as inspired from a perfect god.
You can chose to believe what you want but I will live my life by facts and not on “faith” that is not proven to be true.
I know the Bible gives people comfort but I think it’s because they chose to over look many passages that show that the god of the Hebrew Scriptures was a horrible, blood thirsty, jealous god.
messenger, just because millions have chosen “that” god of the Bible to worship doesn’t mean a thing.
If you are referring to the millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses, then they are worshipping Satan by mistake. Even the New World Translation refers to Jehovah as Satan. The New World Translation says at 2 Samuel 24:1 “And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when “one” incited David against them, saying: “Go take a count of Israel and Judah.” but this is what the King James says at 2 Samuel 24:1: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel and he moved David against them to say Go, number Israel and Judah.” But this is what the New World Translation says at 1 Chronicles 21:1 “And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel.”
So messenger, the N.W.T. says it was Satan who incited David to take the census but the same N.W.T. says that “one” was the one that incited David to take the census. Who was that one????? Why did the N.W.T. committee decide to say that that “one” was just “one” instead of the LORD like every other Bible says?
Do you really know who you are worshipping for sure?
Oh Caroline, please look at these scriptures again. I can see no proof of what you are saying. Please be careful. Jepthah’s daughter’s fate is not clear. Certainly, if this was true as you say, then the scriptures would plainly mention it, but they don’t. All they say is that she never married. And Abraham, was prevented from offering up his son as God wanted Abraham to prefigure His own sacrifice of Jesus. Sorry, mate but I can’t buy that.
Hi Meredith. You are correct in that the Bible does not come right and say that Jehovah demands human burnt sacrifices as such but the implications are there and you should also read them with an open mind and not just assume Jehovah would not be a Canaanite god.
My point is that if there is any doubt at all about who Jehovah really is, we need to find out for sure before laying down our life for that god.
Thanks for the info Caroline. The first two paragraphs containing Acts seven, and Ezekiel twenty tell that God is not Moluch, that the Jews sacrificed to that different god, and that the God whose name is the tetragrammaton only allowed it.
There are a whole lot of people, even that comment on this site, that wish to be allowed to live their lives as they choose (free will), whether they choose God’s ways or not.
“12.you shall set apart to Jehovah every one opening the womb, and every firstling, the young of the animals belonging to you, the males are to Jehovah. 13. And every firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a flock animal. And if you do not redeem it, you shall break its neck. And every firstborn of men among your sons you shall redeem. 14. And it shall be that when your sons ask you in the future saying, What is this? You shall say to him, Jehovah brought us out from Egypt, by the might of his hand, from the house of slaves.” Exodus 13:12-14 The International Bible Hebrew Greek English.
Caroline you have a wrong belief about the above text. The firstborn men were set apart (devoted to) Jehovah so Jews would remember how God freed them in Egypt. They were redeemed by their parent in this scrip, and are even referenced as speaking after that saying, “What does this mean.”
Just like with the Jews back then God allows all people to choose their own god. Really, that’s all the references you at first presented show. You can choose your own god also Caroline, no ones stopping you.
But, facts not fiction, you can’t deny the power of the god of the Bible. Billions have chosen that one.
I think the more a person examines and references different scriptures, contradictions glaringly come to light.
Cross referencing the scriptures about Jephthah’s daughter are a prime example of this.
@messenger,
Who fools who? From jw.org you can read: “Anne realized that she needed help and went to the elders for assistance. Looking back, she says: “Those scriptures are a prescription written by Jehovah for spiritual healing. The medicine is not easy to swallow, but it does heal. I heeded the advice found in those scriptures, and it worked.” (See http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w13+4%2F15+p.+31+par.+17 ).
What scriptures are they referring to?
Unfortunately, they acknowledge: “The Bible was written long before anyone knew anything about modern psychology and the psychosexual developmental process,” (See w86 5/1 p. 4).
So, the Bible being today obsolete, they try to update it with their publications and get even more confused.
Yea Jado, but in that example you just used the girl said, those scriptures were written by Jehovah, not this WT was written by God. You just reinforced my point.
Also, that second point you brought out is not an acknowledgement that the Bible is obsolete. Its an opinion about what people knew in those days. You know they didn’t know about atoms either, so what’s your point?
And how much they knew about subjects like psychology and its relation to sex who knows? They certainly knew about sex didn’t they?
The fact is its not the Bible that didn’t know things…it was human society that didn’t know. It wouldn’t make any sense to write about molecules when people wouldn’t understand. And it wasn’t necessary. God decided what was necessary. Same with much of the unknown physical properties of the universe, and some theories that were not discussed among people of the day.
But in my learning I find that at times people name very simple concepts, that people probably knew in ancient times, but these modern folks will give those a name (coin a concept) and be given credit for it as if they discovered it. Ideas like this one that Caroline referred to without naming it, in an above post. Here’s that idea: A person’s basic needs, like their need for food, must first be met before they can function successfully to fulfill their higher needs, like feeling spiritual fulfillment (Maslow’s hierarchy of needs).
Caroline recognized that, perhaps without realizing someone, Maslow, coined the idea by attaching his name to it as if it were “New Light.”
Take care buddy.
messenger
@Messenger,
Who is confused between you and I? Both of us? I read: “Those scriptures are a prescription written by Jehovah for spiritual healing. The medicine is not easy to swallow, but it does heal.”
Anything “Elders” say, we are told it is Jehovah speaking. Let us tan an example of (Jeremiah 5:8) . . .Horses seized with sexual heat, having [strong] testicles, they have become. They neigh each one to the wife of his companion. . .
WTS comments on the verse, saying “They became just like animals, not even feeling shame for their promiscuousness.—Jer. 5:7, 8.” (See w63 10/1 p. 582)!
Are they writing for their own? are they giving us the “The medicine [which] is not easy to swallow”?
“Anything the elders say, that is Jehovah talking.”
Jado I never knew a JW that believed that. The uninformed might have believed that about WT, but even WT as I stated did not say that. If so WT would have, at some point claimed to be inspired of God. WT always claimed not to be.
Maybe this will help you, or you could research WT writings to see they never claimed that. But this would at least be one reason why WT is not so foolish to claim such. If WT claimed to produce inspired writings, like the Bible claims, them WT could never change an interpretation without that pointing to God dispensing false information through it. Yet WT changes ideas about previously written comments all the time, because WT claims it, the men inside it (elders who write it) had a wrong understanding. Not once have they said God had a wrong idea and told them that,
@Messenger,
I know it may sound unbelievable, but I do believe that is the way that a lot of Witnesses think: “Anything the elders say, that is Jehovah talking.”
Try talking to any Witness about something untrue which an elder has said, and many of them will support the elder.
Then take into consideration the past two study articles about modesty. There were comments given that if we are just holding a mike, Jehovah has given us that privilege and so we should value it.
That sort of thing makes me want to vomit blood. Is Jehovah now choosing who holds a mike? What garbage. It is the elders who choose, and they usually choose their sons to be in the important positions. It has nothing to do with Jehovah.
But these mindless automotons at the hall all nod and think it is fantastic that Jehovah is so involved in our arrangements. So, when a brother drops the mike or gives it to the wrong person, I hope Jehovah is taking notice so He doesn’t use that brother again too quickly.
And am I to thank Jehovah for letting me have my place in the cong: in the toilet going round and round while the elders flush me?
What utter nonsense! Yet I think Jado in this case is on the pulse. Seems what quite a few brothers believe. How distraught they will be if they ever find out elders lie through their teeth quite often. They will then think Jehovah must also lie.
@ Ricardo
Most (almost all) JWs are afraid to saying anything against the org and its appointed authority figures because of what might happen, their suffering some negative consequences because of it.
My aunt, a pioneer, once told me all the elders are abusive, but the problem will get straightened out in the new system. I was arguing with her against that point, saying some aren’t. But she said, “Yes they are, but don’t ever tell anyone I said that.” A statements by a pioneer for 50-60 years who, one who had about 60-80 of her studies baptized as JWs. What she really believed, but would never say to anyone, except a close relative, for fear of reprisal.
change to saying=of saying
Messenger….in the archives of the Brooklyn Public Library is a copy of The Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Page 2, Wed, May 19, 1943 is an account where Fred Franz, under oath, swore to Supreme Justice Ughetta and a jury that Jehovah God was the editor of the Watch Tower magazine.
I have it printed beside me right now.
Never put anything past this or any Cult. They’ll morph into anything they need to to survive.
Cheers.
Oh, and by the way messenger…..that court case was the infamous Olin Moyle case. If you want a peep at Rutherfords true character, you should read what went on.
I don’t remember the name of the guy outandabout, but was this the WT lawyer that Rutherford threw out of Bethel out onto the street along with his wife, because he dared talk to Rutherford about his offensive demeanor, and excessive drinking habit? The one whose character was then smeared in WT mags? The one that then sued WT for defamation of character and won the court case receiving a court award of $30,000 that WT paid in silver calling him a Judas?
After Rutherford’s 1925 false prophecy didn’t come true he claimed, “I made an ass of myself.” When people are that big an ass, they know it.
Russell was a false prophet, Rutherford was a false prophet and an ass. He also muscled control of the congregations. They started essentially as independent churches. He sent in reps from Bethel…took control from their pastors, and forced compliance with WT policy from elders that remained, though in diminished capacities. His (this) plan first was implemented in Germany-see I Was A WT Slave.”
Russell was cut throat all the way…a power grabber.
Yea I know about that one. There are a few off the wall claims like that. As far as I’ve read only F Franz and Rutherford amongst their clans ever claimed to have had supernatural communications from God, or from an invisible agent of God’s.
Franz also claimed once (to R Franz) that only he and two or three other people in the world were God’s teachers. The authority WT shrouded on that guy definitely stroked his ego. Plain by his claims. I would agree with you on this one (F Franz), outandabout, he was delusional. He probably really believed what he said.
Rutherford may have been delusional, but maybe not because as he admitted himself he was a pompous ass.
WT as an org though never claimed its lit was inspired. Who knows what F Franz believed. He was essentially WT sole editor for many years. Everything written passed through him for approval, except possibly things written by Knorr who didn’t write much.
Thanks outandabout!
I think we can safely say their delusion has always been deep and they honestly thought God was channeling through them. They wouldn’t have said such a ridiculous thing in court if they didn’t believe it.
And don’t forget Russel’s miracle wheat.
Cheers.
I agree. Just to state they are God’s sole spokes group is a delusion. Imagine starting as a small group and making that claim at the early part of the 20th century. WT’s claim is that it alone KNOWS what the Bible really means. It makes no sense for this reason outandabout, because at the same time it admit it doesn’t know what all of it means, and that it makes, and has made countless mistakes….so Buddy let me diagram this idea.
WE (WT)-Know what the Bible means…….errr but WE(WT) don’t know what the Bible means, and we gave all sorts of wrong information about Bible meaning.
And You(everyone else) Don’t know what the Bible means.
You’re right…its double speak used to control as WS said..1984 tactics.
What WT should ethically say is We don’t know everything about it, but we don’t believe You do either.
So, why don’t they. Either stupidly deluded, or slyly and smartly tricked. Because WT has tricked so many, including many intelligent people, I side with slyly tricked using tactics that on the surface appear so simple. And while considering those simple tactics even a smart person we might think, “oh, I could never be tricked with that.” In the Bible the name is given to a trickster like that, whether you take it as a literal character as I do, or an allegory as you do my friend. The trickster’s name is Satan.
That’s the Jado we are used to. Good to see you have recovered your senses somewhat. But you really must keep away from that jw.org site. It has a bad effect.
@Ricardo,
How do we call that phobia? I mean, fear of JW Publications! I am immune against their “spiritual poison”! 100% immune!!!!
@ Ricardo;
Looking at or referencing jw.org, according to many well established medical clinicians, has been know to cause brain tumors in mice. It is my personal opinion that this information should be placed on that site as a warning similar to whats placed on cigarette packs.
I remember being assigned a talk and part of the outline
dealt with the persecution of JWs by Hitler. It included his
comment about “Exterminating this Brood in Germany” .
Then the point was made, that it wasn’t JWs who were
eliminated but Hitler himself.–
This out come was attributed to JHVH. But considering
60 million people died in world war 2 in the struggle to get
rid of the Fuhrer. Wouldn’t it have been a simpler and
more humane solution, just to have given Hitler a heart
attack.
Good points, as ever, lloyd!
I was thinking about writing a letter to the governing body by all the people as possible, asking them to stop shunning former witnesses, as they don’t want to be banned
(a form of shun, in fact). Using their own energy about the topic of letters to putin because the question of Russia. What do you think about it?
*Sorry 4 my English jaja
Messenger, i have no idea where this doctrine of shunning came from, as we are discussing, the unofficial shunning, i find that these men are often a law unto themselves, when i was an elder some had already made their minds up in the carpark before the judicial meeting, as for me being shunned during the meetings, i just gave up, & yes i surf the net during the meetings, also with the JW app i always cross reference the scriptures, all it shows is how changed the silver sword is from the rest of the translations, thanks for your encouragement, lucky for me i have a few i can talk to, heres a funny for you, as a baptised brother with facial hair i no longer qualify for privileges, when asked why i don;t do hall cleaning anymore, i remind that that since its a privilege to clean the hall i no longer qualify.
Thank you for your reply Whip It.
Guess who pays the postage for sending the letter?
A “young” Cedars [taking away baby bib] probably wasn’t aware that letter-writing campaigns stretched through the years until the 1980’s and the UN and Human Rights, and Amnesty International seemed to finally topple “puppet dictators” and “freedom of religion” was allowed. Letter-writing campaigns to African and Latin American “despots” happened at least every other year.
Then, the Watchtower leaders apparently began using the State Department’s resources to appeal to leaders that were violating human rights, or seizing property of foreign nationals.
Just a thought, what if a certain world leader candidate used their connections to begin negotiations with Russians regarding an issue of ‘misapplying laws on extremism’ to evangelicals? [Falsetto] Scan-da-lous…
Over the top, again?
*** g99 2/22 p. 12 Half a Century Under Totalitarian Tyranny ***
Our Protest to Stalin
On June 1, 1949, another petition was mailed to the highest office of the Estonian Socialist Republic as well as to Nikolay Shvernik, chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet. This document, a copy of which we retrieved from the Tallinn archives, bears the stamp of Nikolay Shvernik, indicating that he received it and sent a copy to Joseph Stalin, head of government of the Soviet Union. The last part of the petition reads:
“We demand that Jehovah’s Witnesses be released from prison and that the persecution against them be stopped. Jehovah God’s organization, by means of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, should be permitted to preach, unhindered, the good news of Jehovah’s Kingdom to all the inhabitants of the Soviet Union; otherwise, Jehovah will utterly destroy the Soviet Union and the Communist Party.
“This we demand in the name of Jehovah God and the King of his Kingdom, Jesus Christ, and also in the name of all imprisoned fellow believers.
“Signed: Jehovah’s Witnesses in Estonia (June 1, 1949).”
Anyone want to invest in the Wall Street firm Bernard L. Madoff Securities LLC? The firm is a licensed investment advisor and financier. Your not convinced. Well Bernie Madoff has been in business since 1960. Still have a problem.
What’s the issue? It is due that CEO Bernie Madoff is an operator of a Ponzi scheme that is considered the largest financial fraud in U.S. history. In addition, the government has revoked his financial license and now the owner, Bernie Madoff, is in prison.
Just because Bernie is a seasoned professional financier does not mean that he can screw people and not get penalized for his bad practices. He committed fraud.
Just like Watchtower wants to be known as a religion and should be protected under the First Amendment, does not mean that they should not be under some rules of conduct for a religion. The Governments of the world need to consider that the practices and policies of Watchtower need to be held in the same manner as the investment house of Bernie Madoff.
Watchtower’s policies should come under high scrutiny for their child abuse policies, or lack thereof and should be held to certain religious rules. If there are no rules, we need to set some standards of conduct for religions.
Doc obvious, you should look into their investment portfolio. They are an investment corporation with many corporations under their belt. That is why, when a pedophile victim takes them on, they are taking on Goliath. They own billions. The rabbit hole runs deep. Some believe they are planning to take back all the kingdom halls. Remember we all went to the dedication ceremonies. Watchtower owns them all even though the brothers paid for them and built them themselves.
That is why we don’t donate money to Watchtower. Good point. Not a good return on investment for the publishers. Extremely poor.
That’s for sure. Ha ha.
If in the distant future WT begins to run short of funds again, what then? They can start selling Amway down their down line. And their retail customers can be the general public residents met through the door to door preaching.
If you had been Stalin, President of Russia, what would you have done if your own people wrote you:
““We demand that Jehovah’s Witnesses be released from prison and that the persecution against them be stopped. Jehovah God’s organization, by means of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, should be permitted to preach, unhindered, the good news of Jehovah’s Kingdom to all the inhabitants of the Soviet Union; otherwise, Jehovah will utterly destroy the Soviet Union and the Communist Party.” (g99 2/22 p. 12)!
What I want to say is that Russia will be the looser whatever the results of the campaign. Russia will be put in a position either to let its people in the hands of Watchtower or find itself fighting with a “brainwashed” fraction of its population…
We call that “Survival of the fittest”!!
looser? Again! Can anybody spell that properly? (Sorry, the response of an English teacher). Sorry, Jado. Just my Aspergers moment.
@Ricardo, I have checked the spelling in my “Longman dictionary of contemporary Englishänd found the word I wanted to mean the “loser”! Languages die and disappear, but the Brain of Russian Children should be there forever. Let the genes of Ivan Pavlov and Mendeleyev flow for eternity.
These cults are killing silent the future of our beautiful world bya attacking the brain, the most valuable thing of the universe.
THE DOCTRINE:
Does God change?
Even a toddler knows that God does not change.
Jehovah my God Is the unchangeable changer
He is the one who was,who is and who is to come.
When I was a JW member, it was common to hear things like: new light, new truth, new this and new that.
My fellow Brethren, does God change?
Does the holy spirit make mistakes?
Someone called me sometime last year announcing new light happily, she said: Are you aware of the new light?
My response: Does God change,
She grew paranoid and said: Don’t provoke Jehovah’s anger o, don’t sin against the holy spirit.
You see it is a serious offence to criticize JW doctrine.
She informed me that the explanation given to 1Cor 15: 50 had been updated.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 New International Version (NIV)
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
Formerly the leaders of the religion used to explain that the bible verses mentioned above could be explained thus:
144,000 people who will go to heaven must die before their spirit will ascend to heaven. LOL
Meaning that if you are among those going to heaven, you must die first. Rapture was seen as a false doctrine.
Then they used to refer people to 1 Cor 15:36
New International Version
How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
Meaning that before you go to heaven, you must die first
That was always their belief
Then after a while they changed it.
Does the holy spirit make mistakes
NO! NO! NO! NO!
The new explanation published in the watchtower was given which stated that, Angels will pick the 144,000 people going to heaven and then take them to where they will wait for a while before they will start rulling as kings and Priests.
Then they quoted MTT 24:30
New International Version
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
@Missy jay,
I believe your friend may have become overly excited in the explanation of the new light. The anointed going to heaven will certainly not be a rapture. Let me clarify by quoting from the w15 7/15 paragraph 15 (I had to go to that dreaded website jw.org to check this. That website does things to you):
Additionally, “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.” So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.”* (Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.) Therefore, while we do not use the term “rapture” here because of its wrong connotation, the remaining faithful anointed will be gathered together in an instant of time.
The footnote says: The fleshly bodies of the anointed alive at that time will not be taken to heaven. (1 Cor. 15:48, 49) Their bodies will likely be disposed of in the same manner that Jesus’ body was removed.
My explanation of the jdub belief: So, like Enoch was taken by God, with the explanation that Enoch was probably given an early death, so too the remaining anointed will be taken by the angels (given an early death), changed instantly into spirit bodies which we cannot see, to go to heaven.
The only new light here is that the anointed will not continue into the end of the Great Tribulation as previously thought. They will die at the start.
But as I tell my auntie who got very excited with this new thought, just wait 5 years and they will change the explanation to be even the opposite of what it is now. It is funny how the new light is sometimes bright, sometimes dim, and sometimes completely turned off.
Ricardo, any Watchtower explanation of the Bible is always prefaced with words like “likely” as in the footnote you cited from that Watchtower and also you even did the same thing when you tried to “explain” what Watchtower is talking about by using the word “probably”.
Witnesses don’t see those words like “likely” or “probably”. They think that whatever comes out of the Watchtower is a fact and not a guess but if a Witness even brings up that subject to anybody in the congregation, they will be called before the elders and accused of apostasy though.
It’s a cult.
@Caroline,
Another weasel word often used is ‘clearly’. There have been numerous times I have not followed the thought of what is being explained, because I have had a different view. And then to seal the thought put forward, the writers will use the word ‘clearly’, when in my opinion it is not clear at all.
It is clearly a cult. I don’t know why the GB doesn’t just allow us to use our own conscience to decide what we believe on those matters which they too seem to have no idea of the meaning. Rather than come out and say ‘clearly this and this’ and then 5 years later saying ‘upon further reflection it can be seen something else’, just let us have personal beliefs. That’s what we are having anyway. We just aren’t voicing it out.
Cannibalize that’s why. WT first ate up all other Christians not its own, but its appetite was not satisfied. So the beast turned on its own people.
So in the org if a member challenges WT rules and teachings all who accept the teachings view him as a loser. Because accepting all WT teachings=accepting God.
Clearly this is the most fundamental teaching of WT. It trumps all others. The teaching they stick to strict Bible interpretation is their biggest lie. WT is a sect that is one of the furthest from strict Bible interpretation.
They won’t change it again Ricardo. They got it right this time and WT knows it. That’s what the scrip I just shared with you is about rev three ten. They do not undergo the test coming to the entire inhabit world, only because they are not in the world. WT understands that now, so it won’t be changed.
Christianity understood that a long time ago. WT recently caught up, because its New Light doesn’t move a fast as some other Christians’ knowledge. Within another thousand years they’ll realize that faith in Christ is what’s necessary for salvation.
Christ sending angels to gather the elect is not the same as his coming for Har-magedon. It proceeds that event. That’s what WT knows now. That’s what WT changed its idea about. Christianity has probably know that since its beginning. WT’s “new light” is at times slow to catch up.