By now I’ve written a number of articles about Watchtower, but it’s been a while since I’ve written anything addressing the organization directly.
A recent development, however, has moved me to write my former religious leaders a sincere open letter of gratitude, as follows…
Dear Watchtower,
As you may know, I am a passionate advocate against the damage you are inflicting on countless current and former Witnesses with your profoundly harmful policies on child abuse, shunning, higher education, domestic violence and blood transfusions.
I certainly don’t expect you to help me with my work of raising awareness of your dangerous, cult-like attributes – so whenever you do assist me in this respect I feel duty-bound to express my gratitude.
As you know, you recently lodged a copyright takedown request with YouTube for one of my “Getting To Know” videos featuring Tony Morris’ first rant about tight pants during his branch visit in Rome.
Oh, you know! The one where he scolded his audience saying “you chuckle, I don’t think it’s funny, I think it’s DISGUSTING!”
The video against which you so vehemently protested was a shortened version of the video below, minus the hilarious skit at the end with Will Ferrell and Jimmy Fallon…
It goes without saying that by issuing a copyright takedown request for this video, you are both (1) claiming ownership of its outrageous content (I assume on Tony’s behalf), and (2) showing the world that, like any good cult, you will move mountains to censor any information that makes you look bad – even if it originates from you.
I honestly couldn’t be more profoundly appreciative, and hence I will not be challenging your copyright claim – even though my video quite clearly falls under the “fair use” laws.
Besides, I set up the separate “JW Survey” channel precisely to shelter my John Cedars channel from this sort of petty, retaliatory action from you (which I have already experienced two years ago for uploading a song about Sparlock).
So, despite getting a strike against my back-up YouTube account, I can honestly say there is no real harm done.
On the contrary, you have done me a huge favor by showing the world how litigious, surreptitious, banal, cowardly, and ashamed of your own paranoid rantings you are despite being “God’s one true organization.” Readers of this website who would be otherwise ready to leap to your defense will have a hard time imagining Jesus filing a copyright complaint against someone for repeating his own words.
Far from it, Jesus (who you claim to be head of your organization), was apparently only too happy to take responsibility for his own words and own up to them because, as he put it, “I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak.” (John 12:49, New World Translation)
If you were truly “God’s organization” issuing life-saving proclamations through the holy spirit’s guidance and direction, you would be delighted that I am assisting you by spreading the words of one of the few members of your revered “faithful slave,” no matter how controversial these words might be.
Instead, your clearly-demonstrated desperation to conceal your own words (because you know full well they expose how backwards and deluded one of your leaders is) speaks volumes.
You are doing my work for me, and I can’t thank you enough!
I would also like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude that you have not sacked or disfellowshipped Tony Morris, as I once feared you might.
If the Governing Body had done this, it would have sent a clear message to all Witnesses globally that it takes its responsibility to be “faithful and discreet” very seriously, and will not tolerate one of its members laying down arbitrary rules without basing anything on the scriptures – behavior it is happy to denounce as “Pharisaical” when observed in other religions.
The fact that you have kept Tony Morris in his position despite his embarrassingly inappropriate rant against clothing (at such a prestigious event as a branch visit in front of more than 1 million Witnesses) again shows thinking Witnesses the true nature of your organization.
Your leaders are deluded and arrogant, drunk with their own power, and you are powerless to prevent them from “making an ass” of themselves (to quote Rutherford) – especially as their lust for prominence seems boundless. All you can do is mop up the damage afterwards and try to keep things hushed up.
And don’t think the fact Tony’s talk didn’t make the cut on JW Broadcasting’s “Programs and Events” page hasn’t gone unnoticed either.
So, thank you Watchtower. I really mean it!
Without your bumbling incompetence you would be a worthy adversary. Instead you’re proving something of a pushover. Every time you shoot yourself in the foot like this, you make my activism work far more easy and enjoyable.
Your grateful opponent,
@Gary . Don’t get disheartened.Your comments are valued& yes some of us commenting here might come across as Sceptical or even Cynical but we have all BEEN HURT by THE WATCHTOWER and There are SCARS,Deep ones.But we need to help each other otherwise WATCHTOWER WINS the Psychological Game they are playing with our Minds.I Deep down believe in A Designer.The Earth is a BEAUTIFUL PLACE as long as man doesn’t Ruin it. The Human Body & Mind is Exquisitely made. Deep Intense Emotions can be Gorgeously High as well as Painfully Low but LIFE is a GIFT.Help others(Acts 20v35) it is so REWARDING .Make a Difference in peoples lives without any ulterior motive unlike The Watchtowers Accumulation of Wealth (Richest Landowner in New York)Sold $800 million of property in 10 years while volunteer labour of ordinary JW sacrifice & give up everything for more Buildings & 7 Flip Flopping Men in BROOKLYN)
James Broughton: I’m always amused when the Org stresses the “Christmas is pagan” story. Yes some of it is based on pagan beliefs in history. But it’s such an amalgamation of ideas and beliefs at this point I don’t think you can single out any one of them. It was partially an ingenious bait and switch game of the early Christian Church. Since people were already celebrating the winter solstice, they moved Christ’s birthday to the same celebration. In no time the population was celebrating a different function and becoming Christians. Bet jw’s wish they had come up w/ some manipulative PR that good.
Today, not all christian religions celebrate Christmas. I believe in Eastern Europe some celebrate Jan 6, The Epiphany which is not usually considered rooted in paganism.
And, I believe JW’s did celebrate Christmas until Rutherford came along. Another change in the doctrine they try to hide. In another 100 years, if they haven’t imploded, they might be celebrating it again. Think I’m getting whiplash!
Today, it’s all about the intent. I don’t think modern day families envision themselves honoring the Druids every time they decorate a tree. It’s all about being w/ your family and creating traditions, bonds, and memories, something the jw’s do not want us doing. The closer bonds we have w/ family members the harder it is for them to control. Without those connections jw’s are willing to sacrifice their families in a minute.
My missionary uncle abandoned a new wife and a child in his missionary country based on what the jw’s wanted him to do. I can’t believe anyone would think that is okay, but harmlessly decorating a tree is an offense serious enough to get you ostracized. I would dance around a bonfire praising trees any day!
Comments appreciated, what a person believes or not is fascinating to me. I don’t like it when a person feels they have to justify what they believe. They believe what they do because of their experience and knowledge. The reason, though it might sound hypocritical that I do not like the Watchtower, is that it very often uses those beliefs to manipulate people using fear and mind control.
A person should feel free to believe what they want and that is precisely what the Watchtower does not allow.
That’s why I am against it, because it is a
spiritual bully.
Could a person without a faith act against a person with a faith in like manner?, absolutely.
I don’t want to be made to feel that I am stupid if I have a faith, and the irony is of course, no one has yet to prove that a God does not exist, which is a belief system in itself I.e . i’am an agnostic, or atheist etc.
My primary concern is waking Jws up to the reality they face without feeling humiliated.
Apologies for the poor english.
Do homosexuals wear pinky rings, and pink ties ??? Did i just say PINK twice?
I have, to much relief:-), decided to make this my last comment. I think Lloyd is a decent and honest man and I enjoy his articles.
This is what I believe.
I believe the Watchtower Society is controlled by the man of lawlessness. I believe that the 1914 parusia is false. I know , very often, when a person comes to this realisation they are stumbled away from serving God. I also believe that at the genuine presence of Christ , those still in the Watchtower Society will be stumbled realizing they’ve been duped.
I believe that the good news is preached along side this false parusia and before the genuine one and I also believe that the Watchtower not Christendom is the holy place set for destruction 1st. I believe that when this happens and the Watchtowers false parusia is finally exposed to jws then the “many will be stumbled, betray one another and that the love of the greater number (Jw’s) will cool off.
What a clever, insidious plan.
That is what I believe.
@Shanti
Your comments are very touching and meaningful. You are so right. The pain from being cut off from your family for a lifetime is not something that just goes away. The hurt can diminish but never leaves and often something will cause a forgotten memory of the cruel emotional hurt to resurface.
This organisation does not know the meaning of true unconditional love.
@anonymous (I enjoy reading your comments as always),
I deprogrammed years ago from the Org, and so it always comes as a shock to me when I hear or read active JWs blindly defending this Organisation despite all the evidence against it. Being free for so long, it is difficult to comprehend now the extent that their minds are controlled. I always think of The Stepford Wives movie.
@gary on, apologize before your last coment! It’s silly? How can a man (not a robot) say the good news is being preached…
is this good good news?
“I cannot find a mate within the congregation, and I am afraid of growing old alone.”
“Some men in the world are kind, lovable, and thoughtful. They are not opposed to my religion, and they seem to be more interesting than some brothers.”
Read the pain those “She-Other-Sheep” are unnecessarily feeling from the Watchtower Study edition of March 2015 and tell me that is “good news being preached”!! I am 100% sure that is not “good news” but “sad and foolish news”!!!
@Anonymous . That Elder might say that now when the little girl is 6 that he would hate her if she left the Truth,BUT give it another 10 years when she is 16 after another 10 Years of Bonding & Caring for her he might say it BUT DEEP DOWN he would be Devestated!! I know of an Elder & his wife whose two sons were baptised at 13& 15 .Disfellowshipped at 17 & haven’t spoken to them for 30 years .The Mother has had M.E. for 20 years and has serious psychological problems because of cutting her sons off. the Father looks permanently down in the dumps .This Organisation is very very CRUEL!!
@Pickled brain. I know exactly what you are saying. We have an older pioneer couple in my old congregation who only have 1 daughter and she has been disfellowshipped for some years now with 2 children and they cry about it when they talk about it on the platform or if you ask them about her but they insist that she’s the problem, not the Society.
Another family I know has the same attitude towards their 2 children that are disfellowshipped and refer to them as “stupid”. They are truely being trained to be sociopathic and to me, it’s disturbing.
I could never do that to my kids and I can’t comprehend how they can love the Org. over and above their own children. It is unnatural.
I know the brother and sister I am talking about who came over to talk to me yesterday and they would be devastated if their daughter grew up and got disfellowshipped. The wife already suffers from depression and I can’t imagine what it would do to her. For that reason, I think, is the biggest reason that a lot of kids stay in the “truth”, just because they have so much love for their parents, that they can’t hurt them by leaving. Not a good reason to stay in but they can’t bare what it would do to the parents. The motive to stay in, should be that the religion is a warm place to fall, not a place that one can’t escape.
Anonymous,
Your comments are so very true with regards to this religion. I was always told by the powers that be that my relatives who were non witnesses were not good association and that I should only associate with my new family – the congregation. Unfortunately my new family did not really care about me and only cared what I could do for the religion. It took me years to realize it, but my real family, my relatives, were the ones who really cared about me.
Shunning children or parents or anyone is inhumane.
IF ONLY The Governing Body could Read all the above comments & FEEL THE PAIN & EMOTIONAL TRAUMA you are all Suffering plus all those who are still in the Truth? Then if they don’t change their policies regarding family members THEN They are MENTALLY DISEASED !! The Governing Body are quick enough to tell us how one person came back into the Truth because of being ISOLATED from family members which is SICK Reasoning as that is BLACKMAIL.How many more might have come back if they had been TREATED With KINDNESS .But the way Families are CUT OFF from one another it Just CREATES BITTERNESS!!
@Rob .you speak a lot of sense in your last comment.I have learned the same the Hard Way. The Congregation is only your Family if you are SLAVING for The Organisation! My mum& dad who weren’t in the Truth’ cared for me when I ran out of money after years of pioneering(bringing people into the truth) I lost my Job.They took me back home ,fed me,gave me a room until I could find a new job.They were forgiving,kind and generous.!!I loved them for it. LOVE in the Truth is conditional.It is Not TRUE LOVE !!!
@Pickled brain. I think the Governing Body are well aware of all the pain and suffering that their policies have caused us millions of the “silent” majority out here and they really don’t care. It could be that they are just as deluded as Ray Franz was when he went to Bethel too and really believe that Armageddon is coming any minute just the same as all the rest of us that were brain dead all those years.
I am sure that the writing department get thousands of letters every day, trying to tell Bethelites the real truth and they have been brainwashed into thinking that we are all the ones who are brainwashed by the devil. It’s either that, or they are all in on the conspiracy to trick all of us.
I am hoping that it’s the Bethelites who are brave enough to go on the internet and read jwsurvey and other sites that expose the real truth. If it wasn’t for all the Bethelites in the Bethel homes doing all the free slave labor, this organization would fall flat on it’s face overnight.
I believe that the Governing Body are all either in on the scam or they are deluded. I know it’s a scam to have become probably the largest take-over of property that has ever been done in the history of mankind and it was done so cleverly that all the credit must go to a higher power. I do believe that there’s evil in the world and it’s called mind control and only evil people would pull such a cruel joke on so many innocent people and for money.
It’s called greed, love of money. Bernie Madoff did it to his best friends without a conscience and he stole millions and millions of dollars from them. We were taken in by a Bernie Madoff religion too, but it was done by using the fear of Armageddon which is the oldest trick in the book and done to innocent people with no thought of all the harm and loss of life it caused.
I am so glad that I no longer am under the spell of being killed at Armageddon and no longer suffer from a guilty conscience by not going to meetings and service.
I just wished there was a way of breaking through that brick wall that all the Witnesses who have been tricked into believing all their lies.
All it takes is a few brave elders who are open enough to the idea that it’s all a scam and are able to tell other elders in their congregations who can be open enough to the idea that they have been conned and then those elders could go to more elders in other congregations and tell them what they have learned.
It’s going to take elders who are brave enough to speak up to their friends and Bethelites brave enough to speak up so that it spreads.
The use of disfellowshipping is the glue that holds it all together. The evil entity known as the Watchtower has thought of it all but Bernie Madoff was finally found out so I am hoping that sooner than later, the Watchtower is found out too and brought down.
I don’t know if the Governing Body belong in jail or not. It all depends on how much do they know. I am positive that the Bethelites are in the dark but the whole thing depends on the free slave labor of the Bethelites and the elders and they know it.
When I was listening to that branch talk from Samuel Herd, I couldn’t believe how he was whipping the elders into submission with all the talk about being on time, like it’s such a “privilege” to work there for free. Their livelihood depends on all that fee slave labor and he was whipping the slaves. Those slaves could leave but the Society has it all figured out because those Bethlites can’t honorably leave Bethel either. If they can’t take it anymore, they have to come up with some excuse like their mother or father needs help or something like that to get out of there. I do believe that the Governing Body know what they are doing but there isn’t any way of proving it.
If you look up cult mind control in Wikipedia, one of the ways that cult leaders have of cult control is of course tricking the mind into thinking they are doing it for a good cause and another trick is to make them think it’s a “privilege” to serve in that capacity. Where have we heard that before. The worse the job it is, the more the mind tricks itself into thinking it’s for a noble cause. The Society has it all figured it out by dotting every i and crossing every t. They are evil.
@anonymous I empathize w/ you. I am still trying to deal w/ many of the feelings you describe. I’ve been searching for ex-jw’s in my area for face to face support, but to no avail. It’s like I’m on a quest to find my own species. Unless people have been associated w/ this evil org. they can not possible relate or understand the level of problems we are forced to deal w/ on our own. You can’t take it anymore, but you don’t know how to find support. I’m sure a lot of people give up and stay w/ the status quo when they realize they are in it alone. I’m hoping it is easier for younger people, but me at this point, not so much. I hit a brick wall where ever I turn and feel hopeless.
Recently for the first time I tried to look for a therapist. It was hard to reveal all the hidden shameful secrets of my past. Unfortunately there are no therapists in my area who deal w/ cults and the ones I did see still think of the jw’s as benign and harmless. When I mention to people I was raised in a religious cult I am hesitant to say it was jw’s. Most people do not understand how dangerous and evil they are, makes me look like a big fat whiner. They are just one step away from Jim Jones and David Koresh.
Being born into jw’s has definitely screwed me up for life and I’m still trying to figure out how to be “normal”. I definitely need help and support but don’t know how to find it.
Gary, I’m sorry that you feel that people are knocking your sincere faith. I can assure you that I will never do that. Your faith is motivating you to help others and I applaud it.
Shanti, I am sorry for your pain. I do not know where you are, but if you are in the London, England area, email Lloyd and ask him to pass on your email. I would be honoured to help you in any way I can.
Perhaps you would benefit from reading some scholarly works on deprogramming one’s brain from mind control. Steve Hassan’s books are reportedly very helpful in this regard. Also, “Truth be Told”, a documentary about the Jehovah’s Witnesses, has just been released. Perhaps you could ask your councilor to watch it, to inform them of what we have all gone through?
I am an atheist, but you will never find me belittling the sincere beliefs of those with faith. We had quite enough of that when we were Witnesses! No, I have respect for those with faith, and I hope that I have the respect of those with faith in return.
We can all work together, those with faith and those without, to bring an end to the many abuses the rank and file suffer in this cruel cult. I want to work with anyone of good heart to help end the disastrous child protection policy, to help end the terrible advice given to victims of domestic abuse, to help end the unscriptural and inhumane shunning, and to end the ridiculous prohibition on blood.
I wish you all Happy Holidays!
Peace be with you,
Excelsior!
@Shanti. I know exactly what you are describing. There are so many people right in my own area who either left the “truth” or have been disfellowshipped but my hands are tied if I want to get together with them because if it gets back to the elders or anybody else in the congregation, either my husband will tell them or else these people are liable to say something to somebody and it will get back to the elders and they will disfellowship me.
Almost everybody is related to somebody. If I had already been disfellowshipped, it wouldn’t make any difference to me but if I want to be able to talk to my children who are still “in”, then I won’t be able to do that if they disfellowship me. So, even though there are so many people right in my own area that I’d love to talk to, I am afraid to. It makes me sick to my stomach because for all I know, they’d love to get some support from me too.
It’s evil beyond description, this cult that we got involved in. And you are right. To try and convince a therapist, is probably not going to work either. They might listen to you, but for all you know, in the back of their mind, they might think that you are crazy, because of the way Jehovah’s Witnesses are perceived. That is the reason why the Society makes it mandatory that we are to be kept quiet by disfellowshipping anybody who speaks up publicly, either to the police or to the media. That is how they make the public think that Witnesses are a benign religion. It’s all by design. The more I find out about the Organization, the scarier it gets to me because it’s tentacles are so far reaching.
Excelsior!,
Thank you for your kind words. I am deeply touched.
I am in the US in the Midwest. I would love to stay in touch w/ anyone who has a more intellectual approach to counter my emotional side.
I have tried to educate the therapists about jw’s but to no avail. It was a waste of time and I gave up. I gave them many websites including this one. I’m sure there are understanding ones around, don’t have the fortitude to look for a new one.
The few people I have told my entire life story to think it sounds like fiction. I don’t know where I got the strength to leave. I don’t have it anymore. When I left I actually did go to the police. When my mother forced me to quit school I went to social workers. Back then it was a joke. They could tell the entire family was mentally unstable but said they couldn’t do anything. I went to school anyway. My brother was sent to bring me home. Fractured my jaw, had bruises from head to toe. In the middle of the night I walked 20 miles to the nearest police station. They were shocked, took pictures, had me stay w/ a foster family until it was decided I had to go back!!! Next time I walked in the middle of the night it was to the bus station.
I don’t really want to state my religious beliefs or lack of (haha) here. I have noticed that such statements have a way of hijacking the dialogue into an entirely different discussion. I don’t want to debate the existence of god, but to acknowledge the dangers of jw’s. I have noticed that a lot of people who are no longer jw’s are now atheist or agnostic. I think it it is hard to separate god from the jw’s. When you run, you run from all of it.
Anonymous, I understand you not wanting to lose contact w/ your family. I made that choice a lifetime ago and still wonder if it was the right decision. When I left, no support, no internet w/ helpful info. I thought if I didn’t leave I was going to die. I had to keep my shameful past a secret. I’m still trying to find a replacement family. Your situation w/ your children is much different.
As Cedars pointed out in one of his videos, all ex-jw’s are not the same. I have encountered some and ruled out as potential friend material. It was very disappointing. There are the perpetual party animals who want to do everything they couldn’t do in the jw’s. Then there were the ones who left, but are still in the brainwashed state, can’t say anything bad about them and still believe it is the one true religion. Color me gone!! You know what they say, you have to kiss a lot of frogs. But think I’m running out of time.
@Shanti. I hope you didn’t have to leave behind children. If you escaped before having children, then count yourself lucky. If one’s parents want to disown you for not following in that religion, then the advice that I like to live by is this: Remember the bad way they treated you. Don’t remember any of the good things. Remember the bad way they treated you. People have a tendency when somebody close to them dies, to feel really sad about it and it can cause terrible depression. I miss my mother so much but when I get in those moods, I try and remember the things that made me mad at her and it helps me get over those sad times.
With your family being so terrible to you like they were, it, my suggestion to help you to remember that you are a whole lot better off without them.
People in this religion are taught that God comes before everything else and that even includes family. Like I said in one of my previous posts, that is worse than how animal mothers treat their offspring. Even animal mothers will protect their babies, even losing their own life to protect their child.
People in this organization are not real people, like you said before. They look like humans, but they are nothing more than animals that look and talk like humans.
Anybody who will sacrifice their own child to a cult, is not worth missing or grieving them when they are gone.
Hopefully, someday these people will “wake” up to how they let their brains be controlled to the point of loving the Organization over and above family and friends and apologize for their actions, but if that doesn’t happen one day soon, all we can do is save ourselves and not let how they treated us, control the rest of our lives anymore.
David Burns has some really good books on how we can control how we think and not to let our thoughts make us depressed and I highly recommend his books to anybody who is suffering from depression.
@anonymous: With those two guys that came and visited, consider the source. Nothing you say, show, prove, or disprove will change their minds or free them from the chains of mind control. To them, they are on a mission to save you from yourself and satans evil control. That’s their prime objective, motivated by the fact that they will live forever in a paradise and not get zapped at armegeddon.
I believe a few weeks back, Lloyd presented information about his meeting with Steven Hassan. Hassan mentioned that making parallel comparisons with another cult, say LDS or Scientology, softens the mind of the target audience into seeing exactly what their own ‘religion’ is doing to them and others around them. The mind-control receiver will go into a red-zone defense when their ‘religion’ is confronted or challenged. Next time, make light conversation of how another cult controls with similar mind control techniques. Say, “Did you know that the Moonies require ….” Then, the receiver is not in a defense mode, but a receiving mode. They can only agree or disagree with facts at that point, nothing more. They may even say, “Wow, I’m glad I’m not in that religion!”, but later think, “Hmm, wonder why JW think that way too?”
Next time you get ‘help’ from a pair of brainwashers, get them off track this way.
Hi Shanti
I had written a reply earlier to your previous comment where you were searching for other ex-JWs, but couldn’t post it as Cedars site does not permit comments from the computer I work off during the day. I have only just read your latest comment and I am astounded that it is almost identical to what I had compiled earlier.
Here is what I wrote;
You are not alone in how you feel, I empathise with you. It was over 20years ago that I began being shunned by my entire family and former JW friends. The emotional trauma was terrible. I had very few non-JW friends to help me and I was young, naive and vulnerable.
I had to summons up all my inner strength to survive the emotional blackmail that I was subjected to on a regular basis and to cope in a world that I was ill-equipped for. Some of those cruel situations I had forgotten, but the memories resurface and I am aghast at the distress I was put through and I feel it afresh.
There was no internet back then to offer support forums and the only ex-JWs I knew of were a couple whom I had heard labelled as “Apostate” and had been spoken of as though they were demonic, so I didn’t dare make contact with them.
I survived by shutting the pain and bad memories away in the depths of my mind. I couldn’t even bear to hear the words Jehovahs Witnesses used. As you said, people who hadn’t experienced life as JW couldn’t relate to anything I had been through. I have seen a couple of counsellors over the years, but again, just as you pointed out they perceived JWs to be harmless, sincere folk who knock on doors.
Being freed from Watchtower is the best thing I could ever have done – I do not think I could have survived and remained sane if I had stayed. I do not want to spend any more of my life on this Cult. Unfortunately however, just like you and so many others here, WT still retains a negative hold over us through our families. I have been told by some people to let it go and forget about my family, but they do not understand the suffering that has AND STILL IS being caused.
The mental scars have never gone. I didn’t feel any desire to join any other group or be labelled as anything else, but what I have found here at Cedars site are so many others with experiences I can totally relate to, that I want to reach out to help and show my heartfelt support, so they know they are not suffering alone as I did many years ago.
I have found it very comforting to find out that there are other people who do understand what you are going through and I would be very happy to communicate with you via e-mail if you so wished.
Please be warned that although there are many ex-JWs, not all are truly your friend. I have experienced this not only when meeting a former JW who was extremely rude to me in public, but also here on this site, which shook me up a little. It made me realise that some of the unpleasant behaviour that I saw exhibited by JWs when I was a member did not simply disappear because they were no longer active.
Rosie x
@Searcher, I am anxious to meet with them again if they aren’t too scared to try and “help” me again. I was trying to think of how the Mormons got their religion and how silly it is that they believe what they do and was thinking of bringing that up but I have to get the story straight in my mind first.
I can’t say that I was ever that “under” the spell that much. I was scared of Armageddon but I can’t ever remember making idols of the Governing Body. I always resented it when people would make comments like it was a fact, just because they saw something in the Watchtower, when I knew it was just their opinion. I always thought like that, so it wasn’t all that hard for me to “wake” up. All along, there were things that I didn’t agree with and resented and didn’t make sense to me.
I have been thinking really hard if I get to talk to any elders again and this is how I am planning on how to go about it.
When the two brothers were leaving, I said over and over again to the one brother who has the little girl how he’d have to hate her when she grows up, if she decided that she didn’t believe in God anymore or believe in the Bible anymore and he said it would be “loving” discipline from Jehovah if she got disfellowshipped.
This is what I’d say and I hope I get the chance.
Brother so and so said “it would be loving discipline if his daughter, when she grows up, decided that she didn’t believe in God or the Bible anymore and she got disfellowshipped for it. Do you still agree with that? I’d wait for an answer but either way they would reply, this is what I’d go on to say:
When your child grows up, is that child free to tell you that they didn’t have faith in God or the Bible anymore?
If they would say yes, that child is free to tell them that they had lost faith in the Bible, I would next ask: Would you feel that your child should be disfellowshipped or disowned for telling you that?
If they say no, I’d go on to ask: Would you ask your child why they had lost faith in the Bible or God?
If they say no, then I’d reply by asking. Why not????? Your child has lost faith in God and or the Bible and you are not going to give them a chance to tell you why? I would say that that doesn’t make any sense to me. Your child is supposedly going to die at Armageddon and you don’t even want to know why???? Are you afraid that you will lose your life if your child tells you why? Is your faith that weak?
If they say that yes, they’d ask their child why they lost faith in the Bible or God, I would then ask: “would you listen to the reason why they lost faith in the Bible and or God”.
I’d ask them if they’d listen to the answer. Next I would ask: What about the Organization? Does that apply to the Organization too? Would you listen to why they had lost faith in the Organization too?
If they would say no, I’d come back with: You would listen to why they lost faith in the Bible and or God, but not the Organization???? Does that mean you have more faith in the organization or less faith in the organization?
I would ask: What if you listen to your child that your child has lost faith in the Organization , would you ask them why did they lose faith in the Organization? What if they told you that the Organization is lying about 607 and they said they had PROOF that the Society is lying about 607, would you listen to what they had to say or would you close your ears to what they had to say?
If they say they would not listen to what their child has to say about proof that the Society is lying about 607, I’d accuse them of putting the life of their child dying at Armageddon as of no consequence then. If they really cared about their child dying at Armageddon, then they’d do everything they could to bring that child back away from the “fire” of destruction and convince them that the Society is not lying about 607.
If they don’t want to listen to their child’s PROOF THAT THE SOCIETY IS LYING ABOUT 607, THEN THAT MEANS that they are putting the saving of their own life above the life of their child and that fits the category of 2nd Timothy 3:3 where it says that in the last days, people would have no natural affection and I’d ask them: So, who are the apostates here? If a religion claims to be Christian, then that religion has to stand up to the Bible and you should want to PROVE it does. Truth will stand up to lies. They can’t be putting the loving of men in New York, who they have never met, above the love they should naturally have for their own children.
If they are more worried about saving their own skins than that of their children, they don’t have any natural affection.
I wouldn’t discuss doctrine at all. I wouldn’t let go of that subject, no matter how much they try and change the subject.
But the way it is, I don’t think they want to tangle with me again, unless it’s in front of a committee but I am raring to have another go at it but I think they are chicken.
anonymous,
Dear Lady, first, may I wish you a Happy Christmas, or non- denominational winter festival!
I appreciate your deep anger at the WTBTS. However, I feel that I must ask you to reconsider following the script you have developed. The bald truth of it is that if you piss off the local elders enough with this kind of close questioning, they will simply disfellowship you and be done about it. To them, you are simply an elderly publisher and a woman to boot. They will just disfellowship you.
Now, if that is what you want, then go for it! If not, then I would urge you to be patient and cunning. That is a far less risky strategy.
Look at the writings of Plato about Socrates. He was the one who came up with Socratic Irony. It is a form of questioning that works really well. It is similar to the questioning techniques of Peter Falk’s seminal Columbo!
I’m not telling you what to do, my friend, just offering some advice, is all.
Peace be with you,
Excelsior!
@Excelsior. Thank you for the advice. I love to find out stuff like that and I will read up on the subject that you talked about.
The brothers insisted they weren’t going to form a committee meeting for me so it’ only guessing on my part. I think they are very loving and really want to “save” me, not have me disfellowshipped. My thinking is that I want to wake them up, simply because I do love them so much.
I told them if they do disfellowship me for talking to them, then I’d know that all the “love” was conditional. If it’s only conditional love, then it’s not love. We will find out. Like I said before, I think they are scared of me and they don’t want to tangle with me, simply because they might be a little bit afraid that I might know what I was talking about. We will see. Right now, I think they are worried about me getting killed at Armageddon. If I do talk to them at this point, I will be cautious though, as you said.
Hi Excelsior. I looked up Socrates irony in Wikipedia and I get the general idea; playing dumb so that the other person talks and talks until they say the wrong thing and you have them trapped. When I saw that, I believe that is what elders do to women in the congregation. They sit there and pretend like we are intelligent and worth listening too and then when they have let us talk enough, then they start out with all their “wisdom” that is way over and above what a “woman” can think of to say so they can put us in our place with the fact that since we are “only” women, we can’t possibly be as smart as they are. That is the game I believe they have been playing with us. I always had that feeling but never knew how to put it in words. They are only pretending to listen to us.
Two can play at that game!!!!
Rosie: I am blown away by the similarities in your response. I have been reading this forum for a while (Thank you Cedars for creating it and to all who post!) but I have been too reticent to post. Now that I have, I feel more drawn into this community. I have much more to say. Feel like I am just finding my voice, but I’m afraid I’m monopolizing the forum at this point! If there is a way for us to correspond via email, I am certainly open to it.
Anonymous: Thanks for the David Burns book suggestion. Looks promising. I wish you luck in your endeavor, but please remember, they are “pod people” and I don’t think you can get the human response you are hoping for. If it was that easy to reason w/ them, we wouldn’t be where we are now. Please, you can not count on their reaction or trust what they say.
They also remind me of the infamous experiments Stanley Milgram did on obedience to authority.
Hi Anonymous & Excelsior,
I truly believe you have hit the mark with the Socrates irony. I felt the same thing when the Elders had to deal with myself & my husband who chose to step down from MS (once we realised & woke up we just stopped going). I simply didn’t believe this was the one true faith anymore & gave them many reasons why but I felt deep down that they were patronising me with all of this talk of love that they have for both of us & how valued we were to the Cong. I knew as soon as they walked out of our house the knives were out. I know that they warned someone close to us to stay away & many others have backed off from us as well.
We are being cautious too about our fading & have chosen to just not associate with Jw’s in & out. We’re all damaged from this & looking at each other with suspicion. That’s why I have chosen at this stage to just communicate through this website.
@anonymous, “Governing body are either in on the scam or
deluded”. I think both things are possible at the same time.
Just to take one example of many, The change from a specific
charge for literature to a voluntary contribution system, applied
only in countries where tax was imposed on sale of religious
items. The reasons given for the change. “To simplify our Bible
education work, and to separate ourselves from those who
commercialise religion”.. from letter to U,S, Congs, Feb, 21/1990.
( So over 90 years it took them to separate, and for same number
of years it follows that they HAD been commercialising religion.
Other countries were still being charged and the w,t, was STILL
commercialising religion. Work that one out !!
No member of the gov, body could be unaware that that these
reasons were “Bare faced lies, a scam.”
However, they delude themselves, and salve their conscience’s
by rationalising that it’s in the interests of a worthwhile goal,
The mind can be made to accept almost anything.
Also self interest, and self delusion, often go together,,,, To give up
an exalted position, and the total care that the mother org, provides.
rather than depend on the charity of friends, as Ray Franz did
can influence the mind to to rationalise away lies etc,.
Also certain friends such as Jack Daniels, Jim beam, Johnnie Walker,
can be a big help in salving the conscience. It’s certain that self
proclaimed bluffer Rutherford had friends like those.
@Anonymous,Shanti,Excelsior,and Loyal Ex-JWs everywhere.We are Loyal Apostates to exposing the Sham& Con Teachings of the Watchtower!!!Stanley Milgram experiment of Peer Pressure was fascinating & Socrates use of Questions was fascinating.I agree with you Excelsior that when spoken to by the Elders it is best to use Questions back at them .It is advisable not to talk too much as they are listening to see if you ARE BRAZEN in your Thinking & Speech!!They are NOT Judging you based on theScriptures but on what they TOLD in the SECRET Shepherd of Flock book(for Elders only) .A Famous ANIMAL FARM by George Orwell quote ‘ALL ANIMALS are EQUAL but SOME are MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS ‘ hmmm What does that remind us of …Elders & Publishers!! We are ALL Equal Brothers!!! Pull The Other Leg ??
Last comment about Elders Manual should have said ‘Shepherd the Flock of God’ book.
@Searcher.I like your style of reasoning.The Moonies behave like this!The Mormons are wrong because Joseph Smith produced A book(Book of Mormon )in addition to the Bible -Rev.22v18,19
Isn’t it wicked ,Elder Fluffybrain don’t you think these Mormons are deserving of death for adding to the Bible!!We as JWs aren’t like that! Ho Hum !(Studies in Scriptures by Charles Taze Russell) Rings a Bell when Russell said it was better to read his Studies in the Scriptures than read the bible.
@Shanti. I know you are right. I keep forgetting that I am not talking to reasonable people but I have to keep reminding myself that it may seem like they are “hearing” me, but down deep, I know it’s not happening. Thanks for reminding me.
I don’t know if any of you remember and old show called “The Twilight Zone”? There was one that was very interesting. It was about a young woman who you didn’t see her face until the end of the show but she lived on an earth where all the people around her looked like monsters and they were all feeling so much pity for her because she was so deformed but when it got to the end of the show, here you could finally see her face and she looked beautiful but because she didn’t look like the rest of them (monster looking people), she was the one that was perceived as deformed and she thought she was ugly because of how everybody treated her. That is what it’s like for us. The Organization is so ugly in reality, but to them it’s beautiful. It’s like living on a planet, far, far away from planet earth. It’s like we are living in a parallel universe, only it’s a real live nightmare that we can’t wake up from.
Shanti, I get worried too that I comment too much, but then I have so much pent up in my brain, that it’s like I have to get it out in a comment. Don’t worry that you are dominating the conversation. All of us can comment. That’s what is so nice about this web site. Cedars is a life-saver for me and I am sure the rest of us who can “vent”. It helps to get it out of our system and then we can get some understanding from others that are watching the comments. Once we can talk about it to others in our comments, we can let it stop rolling around and around in our heads because otherwise, nobody around us will listen to us. It helps me to be able to sleep. Otherwise, if I don’t have any way of venting, it keeps me awake at night because I can’t stop thinking about it.
I would ask all of you that are on this site please look up 1984 by George Orwell in Wikipedia & if you would be kind enough to let me know your thoughts on How this description is EXACTLY a Mirror Image of The Watchtower Society & Governing Body(Cult of Personality) Newspeak,etc
Intermission ::: I THINK EVERYONE ON THIS POST, AND OTHERS ARE GROOVY…..
thank you
THE MAIN THING…..IS NOT TO PANIK
Here is an excerpt from ‘1984 ‘ by George Orwell book review on Wikipedia and I wonder who this Represents?? HERE WE GO & What do you all think ?This is the Review:
under the control of a privileged Inner Party elite that persecutes all individualism and independent thinking as “thoughtcrimes”.[3] The tyranny is epitomised by Big Brother, the quasi-divine Party leader who enjoys an intense cult of personality, but who may not even exist. The Party “seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power.”[4] The protagonist of the novel, Winston Smith, is a member of the Outer Party who works for the Ministry of Truth (or Minitrue), which is responsible for propaganda and historical revisionism. His job is to rewrite past newspaper articles so that the historical record always supports the current party line.[5]
I read 1984 in HS along w/ Animal Farm. Very appropriate analogy. The original “big brother” is watching.
” describes official deception, secret surveillance, and manipulation of recorded history by a totalitarian or authoritarian state”
Did George Orwell have any relatives that were JEHOVAH Witnesses??? I Wonder!!
@Brand new. Groovy!! Reminds me of 1960s & The Beatles.Good word for all contributors to this site! I spent 2 hours Trolley Witnessing yesterday followed by 3 hours of Return Visits oh HELP, Somebody Please Help! It’s Been a Hard Days Night. YESTERDAY All My Troubles Seemed so Far Away !!! Oh Please Help Me . Groovy Man
@brandnew. I think everybody who posts here is groovy too!! @Pickled brain. I read that description of 1984 on Wikipedia and I am going to order the book on Ebay. I have been thinking of it for a long time and thank you for reminding me. It couldn’t be closer to the Society, if it was a biography of the Society, especially when Cedars can’t even put on a video where Anthony Morris 3rd is talking about tight pants, and the Society has to step in and squash it. If that isn’t 1984, I don’t know what is.
Maybe Anthony Morris needs some tight pants, butterfly collar, and some goldfish in his heels….to feel groovy .; )
@Anonymous. ‘Twilight Zone ‘ Spot on in your analogy.We are viewed as deformed in JW eyes because we DARE To ASK Questions!!!! Well I follow Scripture 1 John 4v1,2 Test Every Inspired Expression.& Even more so Every Spirit Directed ?? Governing Body Expression!!!