The Society’s cruel insistence on shunning family members is bringing it increasing notoriety in the outside world
Watchtower is increasingly coming under fire “down under,” with the Director of Cult Counselling Australia branding Jehovah’s Witnesses a “cruel cult,” according to Fairfax Media.
Psychologist Raphael Aron, author of the book “Cults: Too Good To Be True,” has joined Australian senator Nick Xenophon in placing religious organizations such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Scientology firmly under the spotlight. For his part, Xenophon wants to see a national cult-busting agency set up to police such organizations.
Aron, who has lambasted the Watchtower’s practice of shunning as “draconian, cruel and callous” has expressed his dismay at its psychological effects on young ones. He gave the Australian newspaper The Age one such example, saying, “I am still waiting for a justification for someone to be able to rip away a five or six year old child from their extended family because Mum or Dad have decided to leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
Senator Nick Xenophon (top) and Psychologist Aron Raphael (bottom) are placing the Watchtower organization under scrutiny
Watchtower is already facing almost relentless legal pressure in Australia on account of its poor track record in complying with working with children regulations. Indeed, only a few weeks ago a Witness man appeared in a Victoria court after admitting to child molestation on facebook. Only after being charged in the wake of his surprise confession to his now-adult victim did he stand down as an elder. A wide-ranging Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse has also been set up to investigate various organizations such as Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding their child protection policies.
It’s difficult to say what the end result of this intense political and judicial pressure will be. Senator Xenophon has already acknowledged that “at the moment groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Scientology are subsidised by the taxpayer.” It could conceivably be that the Watchtower in Australia ends up losing its charitable status entirely if things don’t go their way, which would be a serious financial blow for the organization. Certainly Watchtower’s case cannot be helped by more details of their cult-like practices and policies, such as shunning, coming under the glare of the media and political spotlight.
A policy of denial
One of the more shocking aspects of Watchtower’s approach to shunning is that, when faced with media questioning on the subject, Society representatives will routinely deny that there is any such practice. According to this latest article in The Age, the Sydney lawyer Vincent Toole (who represents the Watchtower) has dismissed the idea of shunning among Witnesses as a “myth.”
When questioned about shunning by a major UK newspaper in 2011, a Watchtower representative dismissed it as a “personal matter”
This follows the media storm in 2011 when, in the wake of the publication of shocking “mentally diseased” comments in a Watchtower study article, Society representative Rick Fenton responded to questions from Independent reporter Jerome Taylor by declaring shunning to be “a personal matter for each individual to decide for himself.” (a downloadable copy of the newspaper article is available on this link)
All of this is a world away from what is stated in the April 15th 2012 Watchtower where, after relating an experience (reproduced below) of a man who is shunned returning to the organization, the paragraph concludes: “Think of that if you are ever tempted to violate God’s command not to associate with your disfellowshipped relatives.” (underlining mine)
And so, what is clearly expressed as a command in the publications is shrugged off as being a “personal matter” by a Watchtower spokesman at London Bethel, and even as a “myth” by a lawyer representing the organization in Australia. It seems that, when trying to evade the media and political spotlight, lying and deception is an excusable strategy of theocratic warfare that Watchtower feels entitled to utilize – even though “a false tongue” is listed as one of the seven things Jehovah hates. – Proverbs 6:16-19
Repetition for emphasis
The truth is that shunning is not just conveyed as “Jehovah’s decree” and “God’s command” for Witnesses – it is repeatedly rammed home in the Society’s literature as a test of loyalty to the organization. This is remarkably evident in the latest June 15th Watchtower article, which has recycled the exact same shunning experience it used only 14 months earlier to drive its damaging message home.
It is remarkable to think that Watchtower’s writing department is so desperate to reinforce the organization’s cruel shunning policy that it must resort to re-using material already printed just over a year ago. This takes the principle of “Jehovah’s reminders” (Psalm 119:119), so often used to excuse the repetitive nature of Watchtower literature, to a whole new level!
The experience itself, whether true or not, merely confirms that the predominant motivation for a disfellowshipped one to return to the organization is the renewal of family contact rather than repentance. Such emotional blackmail hardly befits an organization that claims to be identified by the love that is shown between its followers. (John 13:35)
However distressing the Society’s propaganda warfare may be, it is at least comforting to note that Watchtower’s cult credentials are increasingly coming to the attention of outsiders, including the media. This latest article in The Age proves that, even though the Society may brazenly deny its shunning policy when pushed on the subject, politicians and journalists will not be fooled. The more the Society ramps up its hateful shunning rhetoric, the more it shows its true colors.
- To read the newspaper article in The Age, please click here.
- The read the The Border Mail’s article “Slamming the door on Jehovah,” click here.
- To read the above article in Hungarian, please click here.
I can only agree 200%! I’ll say it again; shunning is like the “waterboarding” under the Bush administration. For many it was not considered to be torture because the victim still lived! How horrifying, heartless and cruel!
I find it repulsive that they blatantly lie about their shunning policy, when their official website clearly says that they shun disfellowshipped members. And any witness will know the truth. They are clearly trying to salvage their public image and failing miserably at that.
You know, more countries should think about creating national cult-busting agencies, or at least monitoring these cults more closely for a start.
When you consider the lengths of damage and hurt, personal devastation and destruction that these barbaric animals will strive to attain in the effort of maintaining their own personal and organizational preservation, it is no consideration of limits to them that will be withheld apparently and no one that will stop them short of judicial and legal intervention. That is patently clear!
The behaviour of the well trained operatives online such as FH Chandler on topix.com and on the deaf masturbation video when it was posted on Youtube and suspected on JWN etc who only perpetuate and agonize the pain of already injured and traumatized persons have been reported to authorities both in the USA and Australia and hopefully by others in other countries as well and it surely helps when people continue to do these things but until our lawmakers here in the United States and Law Enforcement act, we are required to endure with such cruelty and brutality! Please people…report to the Federal authorities!
Like Alec Holmes , I am disgusted by the lies the Watchtower Society tells the media regarding their policies. Perhaps they think that the rank and file are not aware of their double speak
Why is Vincent Toole telling such a blatant lie? Did he forget last Sunday’s Watchtower study article that says “…We should not look for reasons to spend time with a disfellowshippped family member or have a relationship with him through email.” Watchtower January 15,pg14 study edition.
I, too noticed the wording in the WT articles seemed repetitious. Thanks, Cedars, for posting the side by side comparision. There seems to be a lot of unfavorable JW news in Australia. I wonder what effect it is having on the members.
The Jeremiah lesson last week was strongly wording regarding those that come back for the “wrong reason” (i.e. friend and family).
Doesn’t WT worry about retention rates as they get more and more strict? So many friends I see on facebook across the U.S., are very free about keeping in touch with those that are inactive, disfellowshipped or disassociated. Seems WT is losing control and like a foolish parent, clamping down even harder. It won’t serve them well in the end.
That’s an interesting point you make Ann, the over strict parent has rebelliouus children. We had an Awake about that. Do we want our children to be carbon copies of ourselves or free thinkers?
I am Defd..many loving ones have contact with me on “necessary business” it is a matter of “conscience” isn’t it????
Or so they lead us to think!!!?????
Disaster. They did it again, they are doing the same circus. I’ll tell you. When I accepted the teachings of the Watchtower my parents did not want to communicate with me. Even crossed to the other side of the street when they saw me. All Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are wrong. Imagine that they eventually accepted “truth” now with me again will not communicate. What will now say JW? Now it is right not to communicate with him. What madness. Many are now beginning to doubt the competence of the Watchtower teachings. Let your reasonableness be known to all men (Philippians 4:4). Can we say in this case?
What irony Anonymous! Your parents shunned you when you became a witness and, after becoming witnesses themselves, they shunned you when YOU changed ideas? Didn’t they learn anything from their own experience?
Let your reasonableness be known to all men(Philippians 4:5).Sorry.
On a person to person level, and organisational.. especially one that professes to be “holy” lying is a massive fail, an indication of being untrustworthy and manipulative.
The JW’s may think they are being smart in lying about shunning but they are exposing their corruption and dysfunction.
They invalidate themselves.
JW’s display a variety of distasteful behaviors towards human beings at the behest of the watchtower society.
They lie to householders about the nature of their group, reminiscent of a slimy car salesman they hide the damage beneath the polished body work.
They are not a group to be admired. Nor are they a group to be pitied, they are a group that requires education and caution when interacting with as going in uninformed is dangerous, leaving one susceptible to the damaging manipulation that they are so well trained at employing.
Cedars,
A very good expose…jw.org states…..
….Disfellowshipped individuals may attend our religious services. If they wish, they may also receive spiritual counsel from congregation elders. The goal is to help each individual once more to qualify to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Disfellowshipped people who reject improper conduct and demonstrate a sincere desire to live by the Bible’s standards are always welcome to become members of the congregation again……
I am not wilfully practicing sin and have attended meetings for 7 months and not been welcomed back into the cong……………
There are no goals of “helping” as long as I question their doctrines or have a history of doing so I will be “back rowed” or shunned.
I rang London bethel about me being welcomed back, a “brother” in the service department slammed the phone down on me in anger because I questioned what action I should take to be reinstated.
Thanks Cedars
xxxxxxx
Anyone care to comment, what steps they took to get reinstated or “welcomed back”
Would love to see your comments
xxx
Such emotional blackmail hardly befits an organization that claims to be identified by the love it shows between followers. (John 13:35) I agree Cedars, Amen to that comment
Yes, “emotional blackmail”, coercion – calling the kid by its name.
JW real pressure on children to be baptized with 13, or 15 years. When children grow up and declare their attitude, are excluded. And again under pressure and harassment shunning policy. Not all the children are returned to the faith of parents. Conclusion. Watchtower Society hurting both parents and children. The big question to WTS Is it the will of God?
I hope I live to see the WT Governing Body Crumble!
To be reinstated, I had to write a letter stating my sin and how desparately I wanted forgiveness. I had a meeting with the 3 again. They put me on the back row seat until I was called to them again. A year went by…. 2 years…. 3years, 4 years, 5th year… I had to write another letter. I was then reinstated with restrictions. I couldn’t comment but I could go out in service. An elders son was df’d for the same reason as I was and was reinstated 6months later.
I guess it pays to be an elders son, lol
Hit the nail on the head Anonymous! Yes, by law minors are not considered to be responsible enough to make certain decisions. For example, they can’t marry. But they are indeed allowed to make a decision that could destroy their family life for the rest of their lives! Does that make sense? Is it loving?
No it’s not! And yet we all at one time or other were tricked into thinking it was.
I just hope that this stuff goes viral in Australia to show the people what a true crock the WT religion is. I’m so glad I don’t have to rack my brain any more to sugar coat all this nonsense to my non-JW family, though at the Hall I have to smile and nod. An elder showed me a scripture in Timothy which said to the effect that some sins are instantly manifest and others made manifest later, and yes, the time for WT sins to be made manifest is coming; there is a great hurrying of it…
Ohh my word Darlene, that’s such an awful experience. I am not related to an elder, I hope I can be back in the cong quicker than that, someone on your judicial must have held a grudge. Looks like I may have to move home for a fresh start, then make sure my eldest marries an elder, his son, or gets out of the trap…………….
Thank you Darlene for your experience
Anymore comments on how to get reinstated
I agree overall that shunning is bad. I can see shunning a pedophile, rapist, theif,murderer, the things listed in scripture, especially if they are unrepentant. We all do it at times when you have to, even by throwing them in jail or execution for serious crimes. But they take it to a rediculous spiritually wrecking level that is just unjust unfair and not scriptual at all.For every little thing it seems you get hounded or kicked out… In fact the Watchtower should be disfellowshipped for its lying and corruption, as well as joining the U.N. !! This after it so counceled people to not join the YMCA for use of the pool and gym, or not get a political card,costing lives and ruining others, raped beaten. Then they turn around and join the U.N. and pay some of our our donations to the U.N. , and only reveal it AFTER they were caught and said, uhhhm it was to use the library as a lame exuse. UH HUH, yup, sure, as anyone can use it without being a member. So JW’s out there: hold them to their own council and disfellowship the watchtower and governing body for apostacy and lying and protecting pedophiles. I bet they get their instruction of mind control from DARPA or something ?? unreal ! Can someone say THE EVIL SLAVE or faithfully disfunctional slave .
GB is now FDS. This means they WTS. It is essentially a new explanation. With what they are currently occupied. With the construction of the new headquarters of the Warwik lake deep in the woods. The forest around the new headquarters will not be cut down, and roofs will be green vegetation. GB folks they hide themselves. 80 miles from New York through the woods to get to them. They are looking to please only himself. GB imagination to watch the ducks on the lake from their offices. They do not care for their fellow believers and their children. It is important to water them (money) does not run dry. Their co-religionists will explain how Jehovah bless his people, but they will enjoy that blessing. They might make a movie about it. And it will all bundle as spirituality. They do not think about disfellowshipping explanations changed as this would cause a revolt of those who have had to suffer for so long because of this policy. GB are calculated and decided that nothing like that do not change. Not even a blood transfusion policy. Or anything else which may be due to the inconvenience.
Sean, I immediately went back for reinstatement after I was df’d. For 5 years I attended all the meetings with shunning in full force. I agree, the unrepentant sinner (pedophiles, murderers, thiefs, etc…) should be avoided. But mine was not the case! I disassociated myself by written letter in 2011 after 40 years back and forth nonsense with them all! I didn’t leave God, I left a Cult!
Warwick Lake. English is not my first language
I really hope that this is the beginning of them being exposed worldwide. I have always had a problem with children getting baptized. I think it sets them up to lose their families and friends before they are even out of school. The whole DF policy is truly disgusting. My son’s childhood friend got baptized and within a year he was DF’d. It was such a sad situation and he is still messed up from that happening to him. He has been full of anger and he is 38 years old! It changes your life and most are never free from the harm it does to them for the rest of their life unless they get some help or they see the TTATT. I was starting to see some things when our best friends daughter was DF’d at 19. She was truly sorry for what she did and they asked her all of these very personal questions. It made me sick and that is what made me read and study to find out why this policy is so dangerous. It was just the tip of the iceberg for me! I hope the governments will bring down this dangerous cult! It does need to lose its tax free status! It does no acts of charity and when they help in a storm related area it asks for the insurance money! The brothers and sisters do slave labor for this publishing company!
Dear Fancy,
I share your sorrow over the situation. It’s so sad because basic Christianity is so beautiful and the WTS would only have to alter a handful of policies to make life among JWs more bearable. In my opinion, it happens when humans come into power – it’s more intoxicating than liquor and blurs vision. Humility does not go hand-in-hand with power. You have my deepest sympathies, but don’t forget that there are still some “good ones” in the bunch.
I wonder if anyone has considered the possibility, however speculative, that repetitive and inconsistent writings may indicate a change in writing staff or dare I say a possible, “shake up” at the Watchtower Headquarters…I don’t want to start any rumor mongering unsupported but only that we may want to watch the consistency and content of future writings as well as if and what is released as far as Book publications…maybe a portion inside is becoming skittish and disillusioned as well…who knows? Just a thought!
When the translation section of the Watchtower Society translates this passage of 28 pages on my language passage gives another message. My translation does not say that small
dose of association would have satisfied
me and likely not allowed my desire for
association to be a motivating factor to
return to God. They just threw it. Why? Here This make censure of their stupidity that they could be accepted.You can see it in the Croatian language.
I believe that religious shunning is an appropriate response to wilful sin.
(Wilful adulterer: “So how’re things going in the congregation these days?”
Witness: “I don’t think I should discuss such things with you.”
Now let me share with you why SOCIAL shunning is a form of religious persecution and is simply morally wrong.)
If a religion is going to call homosexuality sinful because it subverts the natural order of thing, what can we say of the family unit? God created the family unit and if any religion, whatever their pretensions of relationship to God, that makes stuff up from a tiny handful of disparate Scriptural references, is CLEARLY in contravention of both nature and Christ’s lead. Would Christ be happy to see relatives of one family turn their shopping trolley around at the site of the disapproved one?
I have two totally separate downloaded audio experiences, one of a British ex-JW and an American ex-JW who BOTH tell the same story about their relatives turning their shopping trolleys around.
And yet, if you ask any JW, they will ‘loyally’ tell you that such a things doesn’t happen. Really?
Frank V
That is exactly the point, Frank! 2Tim 2:16 says we must indeed “shun EMPTY SPEECHES that violate what is holy”. We have a war against concepts, not against the individuals themselves. We must never abandon our humanity and the most important human quality of love. If we do, we’re just a ‘sounding piece of brass’.
In Germany, many years ago, the German branch of the Watchtower Society had been ennobled with the status of public right. They have been found as a social contribution to the society. Hey folks, don’t forget that religions and governments cultivate a strong relationship. Why? Very religious people are, in general, submissive toward the state. They don’t go on streets, they don’t riot. That is why states strongly support Religions
Lieber Bruder “Bruder”!
It’s very interesting that you should mention this occurrence in Germany. I live in the state of Baden-Wuertemburg and this “Bundesland” has not ratified the decision made by the Berlin parliament, as of date. Why? Among other more trivial things, because of their reservations regarding the Society’s stand on blood transfusions and – would you believe – their shunning policy! Of course, it’s probably only a matter of time before the B-W parliament has to give into the mandate from Berlin and Karlsruhe, but doesn’t it cause you to think? “Caesar” has a right to step in when things get out of hand, but the Society turns a deaf ear to their misgivings and does not directly address the issue that the BW parliament is trying to make, I suppose chalking it up to religious persecution. It appears to me that the WT Society defends its institution, not always the interests of the congregation of our Lord and Savior. I’m not saying that parliament should not recognize the Witnesses as a religious organization. I’m saying that the Society needs a listening ear to what qualified institutions have to say about their policies and to be humble enough to accept reproof from the ‘higher authorities’. Amen
I’m sorry to hear that Darlene. I am amazed you went for 5 years without reinstatement, that is unreal.How did you do it? I was reinstated once ( and that wait was like little over 3 months and was lonely) only to be disfellowshipped again for the same reason. I advocate hemp / cannabis. Another issue but it is not evil or harmful,or spiritism ,that I laugh at LOL and in my reseach a wonderful gift from the Creator. I do not smoke cigarettes, but I feel that is not something to kick people out either. Just do it alone if it offends anyone. Some people are just so physically addicted to all those chemicals they can’t quit like older ones, and then elders hold them back so as not to get baptized or kicked them out when they all had to quit in six months and could not, I know one guy personally.But really eating a steady diet of fast food will kill you far far quicker than even cigarettes, and they don’t kick people out for scarfing down big macs and all that garbage food that has no nutritional value and is energetically dead. But smoke a cigarette and you are in deep doo doo LOL Hypocracy is all it is .
Hey Sean, I am 70wksofyrs. Fab comment. The awake says this about smoking……
“You will boost your self-confidence. “I quit smoking because I did not want tobacco to be my master. I wanted to be master of my own body.”—Henning, Denmark.
Your family and friends will benefit. “Smoking . . . hurts the health of those around you. . . . Studies have shown that secondhand smoke causes thousands of deaths each year from lung cancer and heart disease.”—American Cancer Society.
You will please your Creator. “Beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh.” (2 Corinthians 7:1) “Present your bodies . . . holy, acceptable to God.”—Romans 12:1.
“Once I understood that God disapproves of things that defile the body, I decided to quit smoking.”—Sylvia, Spain.
Often, though, motivation alone is not enough. We may also need the help of others, including family and friends. What can they do?”
BUT WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY TEACH?
At Mark Chapter 4 verse 9 Further, he went on to say to them: “Adroitly YOU set aside the commandment of God in order to retain YOUR tradition. 10 For example, Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 11 But YOU men say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother: “Whatever I have by which you may get benefit from me is corban, (that is, a gift dedicated to God,)”’— 12 YOU men no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother, 13 and thus YOU make the word of God invalid by YOUR tradition which YOU handed down. And many things similar to this YOU do.” 14 So, calling the crowd to him again, he proceeded to say to them: “Listen to me, all of YOU, and get the meaning. 15 There is nothing from outside a man that passes into him that can defile him; but the things that issue forth out of a man are the things that defile a man.” 16 ——
17 Now when he had entered a house away from the crowd, his disciples began to question him respecting the illustration. 18 So he said to them: “Are YOU also without perception like them? Are YOU not aware that nothing from outside that passes into a man can defile him, 19 since it passes, not into [his] heart, but into [his] intestines, and it passes out into the sewer?” Thus he declared all foods clean. 20 Further, he said: “That which issues forth out of a man is what defiles a man; 21 for from inside, out of the heart of men, injurious reasonings issue forth: fornications, thieveries, murders, 22 adulteries, covetings, acts of wickedness, deceit, loose conduct, an envious eye, blasphemy, haughtiness, unreasonableness. 23 All these wicked things issue forth from within and defile a man.”
So in conclusion I agree with the point you make about fast food and burgers if the disfellowshipping rule applies to giving up smoking in 6 months or you’re out it should apply to overeating McDonald’s also once a week only in 6 months or you’re out !!!!!!!!
Watch this space it might even happen. We have a new one joining us on the back row on thursday.
Great comment Sean
Thanks Alden, I try to remember that there are many good ones in that have been blinded by the lies like we were. It is just painful to see so many people hurt and ruined by their policies.
Hello Aunt Fancy, I am 70wksofyrs. I am a hurt sheep and so are my kids, me and my youngest child have been “back rowed” for 8 months. Happily my eldest is in a different district altogether, but still it’s difficult for her only talking about “necessary business” but that is a “conscience” thing so we get on with it.
Have you been freed completely from WT doctrine?
70wks…
“So in conclusion I agree with the point you make about fast food and burgers if the disfellowshipping rule applies to giving up smoking in 6 months or you’re out it should apply to overeating McDonald’s also once a week only in 6 months or you’re out !!!!!!!!”
There is and have always been some massive and morbidly obese people who are Elders and Servants in active and favored positions and have never been so much as counseled as always due to the two tiered system of “Justice” in that organization…I can think of numerous personally offhand but wish that were the worst scriptural or criminal offense that were overlooked in deference to public image/PR or favoritism and injustice!
Hey Konrad, 70wksofyrs here. Thanks for your comment, so in your experience a more equal FAT PIG higher up the chain (George Orwell, 1984), can overeat, heavily drink alcohol, and maybe even smoke or gamble say “sorry” and act repentant and remain a JW.
But a skinny desperate sheep says “excuse me I don’t agree please sir” gets “back rowed” or disfelloshipped. Hypocrisy at it’s most exposed…..
Amen to that brother I agree
70wks….
“can overeat, heavily drink alcohol, and maybe even smoke or gamble say “sorry” and act repentant and remain a JW.”
No actually, I’m saying that they can commit violence and crimes of variable degrees including child abuse and have the protection and assurance of complicity by virtue of the “unity” scam that they will not face a judicial committee as this is the structure of the systemic arrangement as is currently exists aaaaand…they, when accused as per Legal department control and instructions at that point (upon being informed first in many cases) will be placed up to misuse the platform for exclusive praise and attention and counteract the charges and elavate their public image as well as intimidate the accuser and thwart any attempt at a legal challenge…it is standard WT procedure…
I agree this “new light” is very interesting Konrad,
-A sheep cannot question
-A BIG FAT equal pig can break the law
The masses or the laity will be Df’d for everything and the PIG’s can commit crimes and be protected what a farce of astronomical size
Hi 70wksofyrs, yes my husband and I haven’t been to a meeting since the Friday session of the DC last year. My son and the rest of my family were never in so that has made it much easier for me to leave. It has been very emotional but I would never go back and I am glad I am free. I am sorry you are going through that. It has to be very hard on you and your family. Are you staying in because you have family members that will shun you? Hang in there!
I always wondered about that scripture being applied to extremely obese brothers serving as elders or above. It never made sense to me, but was just one more thing I tried to ignore as I didn’t want to be unfair or complain. So glad I’m hearing true comments of others and on my way out of the organization after researching unbiased information for the past few months.
I clicked for that to post to Sean’s comment. Not sure why it didn’t work. Sorry!
Hey Aunt Fancy
“It has to be very hard on you and your family. Are you staying in because you have family members that will shun you? Hang in there!”
Glad to see you feel better and free. Yes to your question I would like to get reinstated for my close friends and family. But also I still have faith in the Bible and Jehovah. I don’t have faith in men though. Some good advice can be found in the organisation material, but needs to be taken seriously and we must be always guided by our own conscience and sense of justice.
My eldest lives in a different circuit and talks to me “when necessary” because it is a matter of “conscience” in her reasoning logical mind. But some of my very close friends are less able to reason.
Warm love
70wks…..
And I also believe in the Bible and Jehovah but I’m not there any more to the meetings or in the preaching ministry official. But as they say preach informally. Of course, only to the Bible. In my country, it was the war (1991_1995). Because of my Bible trained conscience, I was in prison, because I understand what’s in these situations will of God. All that I have experienced and understood before baptism. I’m just looking for the truth about God. I think I found it. I was the one that I asked when I will be in the following studies. They can say we are well acquainted with the truth, but the truth is that the truth comes from God. Also they nor anyone for any reason to have a monopoly over someone’s life, and conscience. We learned there are four kinds of love: agape, storge, philia, eros. Of course, if they are different types and different then the expressed. Then how WTS can ask someone whether he loves or disabled child, or God. Or say if you communicate with your child, then you do not love God. Jesus said, Let God be true and every man a liar. WTS is not however a monopoly on truth, although he said some of the truths. Such people do not want to give my life to lead me. Nor through meetings or through publications. Jesus did not have a secret book that is given only to the apostles. When he told the truth he spoke to everyone. Same words everyone.
Sean, I do believe the elders in my committee had a personal grudge against me. I asked in my meeting, why was I targeted? There were others in the congregation doing the same thing I did and I knew of it, some of their own children too! Why was I singled out? I asked, why did I know of what was going on in their homes and they acted like they didn’t? I was df’d a week later! That attitude and mouth of mine got me a 5 year backrow seat!!!
Can I have everyone’s attention here? This article is a little less than objective. How can we deny that we dissfellowship people, when it is in our publications for everyone to see that we do????
Can we have a little dose of reason? People can individually mark someone for personal reasons also.
This is a reply to Mr. Aron’s article that was sited several times above:
For someone who has written two books about cults and has “investigated” Jehovah’s Witnesses, how little Mr. Aron seems to know of the issues he has raised. People are disfellowshipped because they are unrepentant violators of Bible principles. (1 Cor. 5:13; 6:9, 10) I’m sure Mr. Aron would agree that one bad apple does spoil the whole bunch. Would he allow his children to have friends who abused drugs or committed theft? Maybe Mr. Aron can inform us about what is being withheld from “potential recruits”. The Bibles teachings on things such as Christmas, Easter and birthdays are plainly spelled out to those we study with and it doesn’t take much research to find out these things are pagan in organ. Mr. Aron, who is an Observant Jew should go back and re-read his scriptures, especially Gen. 9:4; Lev. 3:17; 7:26; Deut. 12:16; 12:23 in the case of the use of blood, and Eccl. 7:1 on the matter of birthdays. Mr. Aron claims we are “not allowed” to do various things, making it sound as though we are captives of some sort. We study The Bible (in my case The King James version for two years with the Witnesses AND on my own) so we can make an informed choice, and adopt these as our values. NO! Mr. Aron’s article IS NOT well written and is full of prejudice and hysteria and he uses disgruntled, vindictive ex-witnesses as his source material.
Daniel7
You say… “This article is a little less than objective.” I could say the same thing about your comment.
You say… “How can we deny that we dissfellowship people, when it is in our publications for everyone to see that we do????” You should ask that question to Rick Fenton at London Bethel, who described shunning as a “personal matter,” or Vincent Toole, Watchtower Lawyer, who went on record calling it a “myth.” My article states clearly that shunning is unmistakeably prescribed in the publications between family members, but I have provided two documented examples of Watchtower officials either denying shunning entirely or misrepresenting it. You appear to be vigorously defending an organization that says one thing to its members, and another thing to the media.
You say… “People are disfellowshipped because they are unrepentant violators of Bible principles.” People are also disfellowshipped for “apostasy” – and apostasy is deemed as any thought or verbal expression that conflicts with the teachings of the Slave Class, or Governing Body. It isn’t just about morals, or even what is in the Bible for that matter. You can believe in Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible – but still be disfellowshipped for apostasy if your thoughts fail to align with those of the Governing Body.
Finally, you say… “Mr. Aron’s article IS NOT well written and is full of prejudice and hysteria” Firstly, it’s not Aron’s article. Aron is just featured in the article. The article is by Chris Johnston of “The Age.” Secondly, can you really say your comments are not borne from extreme prejudice as one who has committed himself to serving the Watchtower organization – even though the Watchtower has been proven to lie to people in furtherance of its agenda? http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/secrecy-and-deception-watchtower-fights-dirty-in-its-war-against-apostates
Daniel7 – are you absolutely sure you’re on the right side?
@ Daniel7 ~ We made what we thought were “informed choice(s)” but were really under influence from “study and association” of a very powerful and deadly, experienced 100+ year old organization that caused indescribable pain, devastation and destruction as it presumed to Hi-jack the name and authority of an eternal God!
Hi Konrad, I sincerely hope that the situation is not quite as bleak as you are describing it.
Konrad, The Bible says,“ Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.” 1 Thess. 5:21 which is what I did and I stand by my decision. This “100 year old organization’ has restored to its rightful place The Name of the Sovereign of The Universe, not like Christendom’s grossly dishonoring it by deleting it from their bibles in imitation of there god, Satan. (Gen. 3:4, 5)
Alden, Were not perfect, but it isn’t.
My husband attends the meetings on a regular basis for years now. Not baptized though. There is supposed to be a new NWT released at the District Convention this year. Why would they need a new Translation? Wasn’t the old one supposed to be finest print of God’s Word ever???
Hi Darlene,
Your husband does well not to get “dunked”, but to dedicate himself in his heart, which only Jehovah has the right to peer into. He is even in the happy position to freely be able to express his opinion against some WT practices without fear of repercussions. He might even be able to help other brothers to think with their own brain! If he finds spiritual refreshment when attending meetings who can deny him his free choice? You can advise him, however, that as soon as he goes under the water the shackles go on and he must henceforth let the WTS do his thinking for him – indescribably sad but true. PS: As far as the NWT is concerned, it was a translation principally made by one scholar alone; Fredrick Franz. As with all translations of the Bible, it has merit but is only the work of one single translator. That is why the names of the presumed “NWT committee” were never released because it basically would have contained only the one name, which would hardly have been acceptable to Bible-translating authorities. It’s not a bad idea to re-elaborate the NWT – as a form of “defranzisation”.
Alden, can you tell me what some of these “WT practices” are?
You say “How can we deny that we dissfellowship people…”. Are you an Elder? If yes, I feel you need to judge Jehovah, too. I mean WHAT you call Jehovah. Why did he kill forty two innocent children?
Read 2 Kings 2:24 “And he proceeded to go up from there to Beth′el. As he was going up on the way, there were small boys that came out from the city and began to jeer him and that kept saying to him: “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” Finally he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah. Then two she-bears came out from the woods and went tearing to pieces forty-two children of their number.
Imagine, forty-two children killed “innocently” in the name of Jehovah. This tale is a bad one, I have better tales to enjoy reading!!
Dear Daniel7, May I just point out that we’re not negating here the truly biblical form of disfellowshipping. We are criticizing the extreme to which it is taken by the WTS that contradicts the love of God and our fellowman.
Some scriptures that apply:
“ If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.” 2 John 10
“. . .while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”” 1 Corinthians 5:13 (1 Cor. 6:9)
It is interesting that every Christian religion have their own version of what Jesus and the apostles actually taught.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are no exception in this as they have their own version of the “Good News” and the “Kingdom of God”.
Jesus taught that his Kingdom was no part of this world as recorded in scripture and yet Jehovah’s witnesses still do not believe it.
Instead they have set up an imaginary Kingdom of their own design as has been set up in 1914 and henceforth a multitude of blunders in trying to prop up this counterfeit Kingdom in the minds of their members and also preaching this counterfeit Kingdom to people at the doors.
Jesus taught that we all have a Heavenly hope in one of the Heavenly domains that exists in God’s large grand universe and still Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that but rather put their faith in a group of confused and self proclaimed representatives of God’s kingdom who have more or less declared themselves the “faithful slave” even without even being inspected yet as to whether they are the faithful slave or the wicked slave that is beating their fellow slaves to do all the work (the preaching work) all the while putting on their members a guilt trip that they would individually be blood-guilty if they don’t go from door to door preaching their version of a counterfeit Kingdom of God.
Jesus also taught that he was the way to everlasting life, which means that he is the mediator for all those who put their faith in him.
He is the living “bread of life” that came in the form of the “Word” of God, his Heavenly Father, our Heavenly Father.
Jesus (Michael) as the Creator Son of God, took it upon himself to incarnate here in the flesh in human form and die at the instigation of egotistical Jewish leaders who were full of their own self importance and only concerned about their own power base.
Sounds familiar people?
There is no other mediator between us and God, not the Governing Body and not the 144,000 whoever they will prove to be. Whether symbolic or literal in number.
As I now understand, is that the basic message that Jesus preached about God’s Kingdom in a nutshell is
“The Fatherhood of God and the united brotherhood of all mankind as children of God, the Father” as well as joining the universal brotherhood of all of God’s intelligent creation throughout our universe..
Good points, Anonymous! “Monopoly over someone’s life, conscience and ‘The Truth’ itself.”
Great point 70wksofyrs, “Some good advice can be found in the organisation material, but needs to be taken seriously and we must be always guided by our own conscience and sense of justice.” Your comment takes into account our individual responsibility. If we give up our conscience and our inner sense of justice, we’re dead!
Daniel7 You said “People are disfellowshipped because they are unrepentant violators of Bible principles.” Which principles? Have principles and principles. The Bible says do not hang out together: do not eat (hang). Not that I did not ask Are you alive? How are you? Maybe they should be punished before Armageddon? You are the ones who are authorized to punish them before Armageddon. And God is going to kill them in Armageddon. Where is the logic in that?
@Alden ~ Zwar ist es so und ist wirklich notwendig für mich an dir zu beschreiben?
Hi Alden… My husband is good with jw’s because they dont pass the plate! He loves wearing suits! They treat him like a celebrity now that I no longer attend and he still does! He lives NOT like a jw, but believes in the teachings. He loves attention! He refuses to pray with his family because we dont go to the hall… I could go on forever. Ii tell him all the time…. as soon as you get baptized, you are doomed! If you think outside the box and you’re not out in service every waking minute of your life, you will be a nobody to them!
Hi Darlene,
If he is not violent now, as soon as he is baptized he may become a nobody and take out his frustrations on you and any children you both may have.
You seem a competent young woman that can pick a good man, I do hope he remains the man you picked and doesn’t change for the worse…………
take care of yourself and all your family
Warm regards
70wks……….
Darlene, What 70 said is disgusting.
Cedars, I apologize for the mistake in calling Mr. Johnson’s article, Mr. Aron’s, Even in that only one side was given consideration. The Official publication of The Watchtower Society says we dissfellowship people vs these individuals who gave their opinion. Who are you going to believe? To me it’s a no brainer……… We just had a disfellowshipping in our congregation last month. (1 Cor. 5:13) Again to be honest, I have come across those who say there are teachings of “The Slave Class”. I worship the God of The Bible and follow His teachings through Jesus Christ. The Bible warns us “not to believe every inspired expression, but test…” 1 John 4:1 I have never met anyone or heard of anyone who was disfellowshipped for not following the”Teachings of The GB”. I studied for two years before I was baptized and continue to test my beliefs and I am certain that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the one’s who are doing Jehovah God will today. Not only do I stand by comments about Mr. Aron’s accusations, after looking a little closer at yours I find the same bias and hysteria comparing teaching our children in the house to house work the forced child labor and in the same paragraph with a story about a child abuser. Yes, I am sure on the right side.
Daniel 7 – Again, I fail to grasp where you’re coming from…
“only one side was given consideration”
That clearly isn’t true. If only one side was given consideration, then how come Vincent Toole, on behalf of the Society, was allowed to contribute his fallacious statement that shunning is a “myth?” If the article was truly one-sided, as you suggest, then Vincent Toole wouldn’t have been approached at all.
“Who are you going to believe? To me it’s a no brainer………”
Of course, I believe the Society’s publications about the existence of shunning – which is why I have mentioned that Rick Fenton and Vincent Toole either lied or gave misleading statements to the press on that issue. In doing so, they were acting as the Society’s representatives. Therefore, the point stands that the Society will say one thing to the media when questioned, but another thing entirely to ordinary publishers such as you and I. You have yet to address that point, but instead skirt around it.
“I have never met anyone or heard of anyone who was disfellowshipped for not following the ‘Teachings of The GB’” – (1) It’s pretty hard for an active publisher to “meet” a disfellowshipped person, much less find out what they were disfellowshipped for! (2) Your logic of “I haven’t met them so therefore they don’t exist” doesn’t hold water. If you want to test the theory that you can be disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the GB, go right ahead. Just as an experiment, stand up at the meeting and say you still believe in Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible but you disagree that the Governing Body are our spiritual leaders. See what happens.
“I am certain that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the one’s who are doing Jehovah God will today.” – Does Jehovah’s will include willfully lying and deceiving his people about the organization’s past? If so, you clearly haven’t done enough research. Here’s an article to get you started… http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/misquotes-deception-lies.php I doubt you will read it, because you clearly don’t want to know the real truth.
“I find the same bias and hysteria comparing teaching our children in the house to house work the forced child labor and in the same paragraph with a story about a child abuser.” – This made no sense at all. Where did I talk about child labor? Please can you tell me precisely which text of mine you are referring to, in which article it is, and why it is “biased and hysterical.” I can safely say that none of my articles are nearly as biased as the material you will find in the Society’s literature. I encourage you to read BOTH the Society’s literature AND my thoughts, whereas the Society just wants you to hear their side. And you don’t think that’s biased?
Cedars
Darlene, I’m sure there’s bias in the congregations, have you talked to the Circuit Servant? You could move to another congregation or write The Society.
@ Daniel7 ~ “This “100 year old organization’ has restored to its rightful place The Name of the Sovereign of The Universe”
The last thing I’m going to do is engage in a debate with you on this or any forum since no evidence will be enough at this point if ALL THIS still isn’t enough!
Our own horror stories are beyond belief to you anyway…
But I will state that if you or any person who has the ability to clearly access facts and information (If you in fact did) or had the experience or perspective that any number of us had would see that this is clearly not the case and this organization has no authority or right to presume. The blasphemy of succession alone is proof of that but all that Jehovah is finally permitting to befall the organization and the lies and crimes that are being revealed are also evidence. Also, the lies and crimes hidden all along such as the 1919 “House cleaning” and the WWII “Persecution” PR styck for just one very small example:
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php
Konrad, I spent 12 yrs. in what I call “The Congregation from Hell” in New York metro area. So you don’t have to tell me about horror stories. When Isareal was at its worst, burning children alive, did Jehovah stop using them? It was not until the promised one came along The Massiah did he abanded them. Even then there were false brothers in the Christian Cong. So to today (lets say everything you say is ture), we still represent true worship on the Earth today. Jehovah will bring evil doers to justice outside and inside the congregation.
Servus Konrad!
In the final analysis I can’t really imagine any human institution coming out with a perfect bill of health, religious or otherwise. Jesus said ‘where two or more are gathered’ so, when the third one comes in, the problems start to grow exponentially. We have to take all institutions with a grain of salt. The individuals within the structures are worthy of our attention, however, as they may belong to the ‘sheep’ that Jesus begged Peter to ‘feed’.
At the moment, I don’t think the WTS is all part of a sinister plan – the people at the top are simply in error and their mind-set finds resonance in a considerable amount of people. Not all are happy with it but go along to ‘keep the peace’. When they are hit personally by a tragedy, however, they sometimes wake up.
I no longer build my hopes up that the WTS can be reformed. The Ray Franz affair proved that. I think many individuals in the congregations, however, are still worth the effort. Mach’s gut!
@ Alden ~ By the way, I have family in Germany and spent much time in BW. I knew many JW’s in Untertürkheim and Pforzheim, Karlsruhe and Stuttgart and many places…years ago!
Hi Daniel7,
70wksofyrs here. How are you doing? Welcome to the site if you have never been before.
Why do you believe my comment to Darlene disgusting?
Hope to hear from you soon
70wks……
Because it is.
Daniel 7 have you sent to a page on a mission
To Daniel7. I have no desire to return the WT Org of jw’s. I left in 2011. No, I was not df’d. I left willfully and I love not being a part of it now! Very disgusted in the shunning practices. Always have hated it! I’ve always made it a point to speak to df’d persons at the mtgs and on the streets. I was counseled on it several times. I don’t agree with it and never will! (My husband has no desire to be baptized as a jw. He was baptized as a Christian many years ago, he says. that was enough).
“That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.”
Ecclesiastes 1:15
Because of wrong convictions of WTS. Many seventies sold the property and houses being convinced that the end is surely 1975 years. And that children are damaged without remaining assets. And who cares? Society gave bless those who do so. They said that it was exemplary spiritual person is aware of in which time she lived. This phrase today repeated convincing children not finishing high school. So many persons now work part-four hours cleaning up some objects. What’s the worst that persons are smart and so they happen. Why convince them of that? To be at the service of preaching collecting contributions. That GB can still enjoy in furniture of mahogany. Destroying the future of the young people. Later write an article in “Awaken” about doctor who accepted the “truth of the WTS.” They never written an article that is cleaner accepted truth and how. Damages have made WTS are endless. They do not like kids to be successful. They say the truth will leave if they go to high school. Is the truth so weak. Where is the attitude, “No one can to the truth, only for the truth.” They were to sue because the wrong policies of persuasion and persuasion destroy human lives.
A, No one has a future in this world. No matter how well educated you are. No matter how much money you make, we all die. The only hope anyone has is Jehovah God’s Kingdom. Jehovah’s people have been waiting for this for 6000+ yrs. and when the brothers find some that looks promising about the end, who can blame us for getting excited? Don’t listen to the lies of the hate mongers. If you haven’t studied with us, please do so. 8,000,000 of us know we’ve made the right choice.
I thought at the college. In my country they call high school.
To tell the truth.
“A, No one has a future in this world. No matter how well educated you are. No matter how much money you make, we all die. The only hope anyone has is Jehovah God’s Kingdom” ~ Daniel7 said a mouthful there! No one here that I have seen or at least myself since that’s the only person I can speak for has denied that Daniel 2:44 or any other scripture wasn’t valid or that Jehovah wasn’t alive or a God of truth but I refuse to lie as well as much as it depends on me! But that doesn’t mean that he still approves or is approving of that organization or is allowing his name to continue to be associated with it and it’s works and if people choose to associate with it as well then that is their choice…
Wow! never read so much twisted and hateful unsubstantiated dribble in my life. I’m married to a Jehovah’s Witness and I am very familiar with how they operate (not that it’s a secret). They are some of the only decent human beings on Earth that genuinely love and care those around them. As for this shunning practice (which is grossly misrepresented in this article) is what keeps the organisation clean and free of people that choose to no longer live in harmony with very clear Bible standards.
Makes sense to me, because one bad apple spoils the bunch, hence their success in continuing to be a morally clean organisation. Something that is sorely lacking in other religious organisations.
And why do people keep calling them a cult??? Is nobody aware of the actual definition of the word? JW’s worship God, they do not follow any human, look to religions like Catholicism for people worship. With their Pope and self appointed titles like Father – even when the Bible clearly states that you only ever refer to God as Father, not even Jesus has that title.
Deckard, you say…
“I’m married to a Jehovah’s Witness…” – Nice to know you’re not biased then!
“…and I am very familiar with how they operate (not that it’s a secret)” – Being married to a JW does not make you a JW. Even many JWs themselves don’t fully understand their doctrine. There were things I only found out once I’d left. Also, you can’t say “not that it’s a secret” when there is such thing as secret books and documents in the JW faith – an obvious example being the Elders’ guidebook, which ordinary Witnesses (including your wife) are banned from reading.
“As for this shunning practice (which is grossly misrepresented in this article) is what keeps the organisation clean and free of people that choose to no longer live in harmony with very clear Bible standards.” – Shunning is not just used to keep the organization clean, it is used to tear families apart and enforce mind control. For example, if they were remotely merciful, the Governing Body could arrange for disfellowshipped ones to be shunned by members of the congregation but not by their families. The reason they include family members is because they want to use shunning as a cruel tool of mind control, to stop so-called “apostates” from influencing their family members after they leave. The newspaper article rightly reflects how cruel this practice is from an objective non-JW perspective.
“because one bad apple spoils the bunch” – So a “bad apple” in the form of an errant teenager should be cast out by his parents, never to speak to them again, simply because he chose to leave the organization and do some objective research, only to find out how corrupt it is? You are heartless if you truly think that.
“And why do people keep calling them a cult??? Is nobody aware of the actual definition of the word?” A cult is any organization whose teachings and practices are potentially damaging to its followers. In the case of JWs, there are many harmful teachings and practices. Shunning is just one of them, but I could cite more. Also, FYI, usually people who are in a cult or under its influence don’t accept that they are in a cult, and object to the use of that word to describe their faith – your wife included.
I admire your loyalty and support for your wife, but you should be thinking about helping her get out (and avoid wasting her life) rather than standing up for an organization that brings untold misery to thousands of people. On the other hand, if you are so insistent that this organization is above-board, then why don’t you join it?
Cedars
@Deckard ~ Nothing here is “unsubstantiated” but lived in very real life terms and no one disputes the scriptural basis for marginal exclusion of those who carry on willful sin in the congregation. There is no scriptural basis for secret and closed “Judicial commitees” on a systemic basis or the massive and calculated abuse of that arrangement as well as all else that takes place against those who are targeted. You are not a Witness? No offense intended however, you are hardly in a position to know or understand in any real or pragmatic sense but your loyalty is admirable…I recommend that you secure at the very least one lustrum or a decade or more baptized experience in the organization and certainly read this entire site here as well as JWleaks.org and JWfacts.com before taking anyone on here on this forum…
i mozda i gori dok i li i li WTS
Jeste li mislili: Daniel 7 i ja sam bio isti kao ti mozda i gori dok sam mislio mislima WTS. Dok nisam poceo razmisljati
Prijevod Danijel7 and I was just like you, and maybe worse while I was thinking thoughts WTS. Until I started thinking.
Deckard, Thank you for the positive comments. I will be the first to admit the are false brothers in the organization, but the apostle Paul warned us about them. Our responsibility is to remain faithful to Jehovah God and to those who are faithful to him.
I thought “active practicing” jw’s weren’t allow on sites like this one! Or reading and surfing the internet for anything outside of WT literature. I’m sure if the elders knew of the communication with disfellowship and disassociated persons was going on, the active witnesses would be taken to the back room.
Right choice?! What is your level of education? Your right choice is to judge others before you judge yourselves. By your standards, what you read in w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 for you is the right choice:
“Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean! (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) This is a time for congregation elders, ministerial servants, and indeed all our brothers and sisters to avoid any circumstances that could lead to immorality.
SURELY, YOU WILL BE JUDGED BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS. In the Watchtower (Study edition) of May 2013 you read on page 29 that “a considerable number of judicial actions and disfellowshippings that take place each year are the result of sexual misconduct”. (Read for yourselves this at http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130515/safeguard-your-inheritance/).
Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean! Read the Bible from the very beginning, all those who followed this “man made god” as other gods have never been clean and THEY WILL NEVER BE CLEAN!!.
Jehovah’s organization WILL BE clean!
Hakizimana
You say something very interesting…
“Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean! Read the Bible from the very beginning, all those who followed this “man made god” as other gods have never been clean and THEY WILL NEVER BE CLEAN!!. Jehovah’s organization WILL BE clean!”
When you say that Jehovah’s organization “must be kept clean” you imply that it is already clean. Then you say, “Jehovah’s organization WILL BE clean” which implies that it isn’t clean at the moment. So my question to you is, is Jehovah’s organization clean, or isn’t it?
If Jehovah’s organization is clean, then why so much corruption and lies? Why does the Society feel the need to misrepresent itself to the media and on its website, and hide truth from thinking Witnesses?
If Jehovah’s organization is not yet fully clean, then why is it taking so long to clean it? Why does Jesus Christ need 93+ years (since 1919) to clean his organization? How “dirty” must it have been to begin with for it to take so long to clean?
As to the Society’s assertions that most people are disfellowshipped due to immorality, you will find that this isn’t necessarily the case. 60% of the disfellowshipped ones taking part in last year’s survey claimed they were kicked out of the organization simply for disagreeing with the Society’s teachings and practices. Only 28% claimed they were disfellowshipped for transgressing the moral code.
Cedars
Cedars! Any misunderstanding? with “Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean!” I was IRONICALLY quoting w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12.
I have closely observed critically (evidence based critics) for the last 3 years this organization and I finally discovered Jesus’ words, HOLY or NOT, perfect describe them “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness.” (Mt 23:27). A different opinion is NOT mine!!
You said Jehovah will clean their organization. Which organization. The Catholic Church helps its needy person in many ways. When someone does not eat, for example they have a kitchen. Build schools, hospitals, etc. Muslims have the Red Crescent, the real kitchen, build schools and hospitals. The Orthodox Church also seem similar. And we give a beggar on the street treatise. Brothers in my country that does not have anything to eat today literally elders advise pray earnestly. It’s true that I experienced. A society does not any kind of program to help in those situations. Only if it is a war or a natural disaster. And on those occasions seeking extra contributions. Is that Jehovah’s organization. There are just people who believe in Jehovah.
And we give a beggar on the street treatise or journal. It’s his only way to save lives in the real sense. For all we can to justify.
Hello Daniel7,
I have no idea why you feel I made a disgusting comment. I do not wish for others to be upset by my comment.
Men in power can get corrupted and misuse their power. You state yourself you were in a New York cong that was less than fabulous.
This thread is about how disfellowshipping/shunning can be harmful and emotionally abusive when misused by ones in power.
Regards
70wks…………
Hakizimana, My level of education is, Acts 4:13 ‘Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, . . .’
So what are you saying, that the higher-ups have their own secret sex club while the little one are disfellowshiped? I also don’t understand the last sentence of your comment.
Daniel7,
Anyone could get disfellowshipped for anything if they are not completely supporting the …………”unity of the congregation”…………., and may spread a little leaven which ferments the lump.
Disfellowshipping when used as a tool to bully and discredit ones who love Jehovah is cruel and psychologically harmful
I am saying it’s not always loving discipline, most of the time it’s cruel punishment, and revenge
70wks……
Hello Daniel7
WTS states
………………..” Those who were baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses but no longer preach to others, perhaps even drifting away from association with fellow believers, are not shunned. In fact, we reach out to them and try to rekindle their spiritual interest. We do not automatically disfellowship someone who commits a serious sin”………………..
I don’t believe what the official website says……………………………
In reality ones who are truly desperately sorry and stop practising sin have been disfellowshipped anyway. They have suffered in a cruel way trying to make a mense not with Jehovah God, but with men on a private judicial committee who are not ready to forgive the same way Jehovah is.
Kind regards to you Daniel7
70wks…………….
I wonder is Daniel racking up service ‘time’ with his replies here. If asked, would he ever admit that he was on an (Apostate) site and turning in time with his conversations????
Jw’s do shun people. I was disfellowshipped in 2010. My friends and family includeing my three children now shun me. I have no one to turn to. I live all alone with no friends.
@holy grail… yes indeed they do shun! I wasn’t even disfellowshipped, I disassociated myself when I read Crisis of Conscience and I was immediately SHUNNED for leaving the organization. I never left God! I would like to invite you to Colorado Springs & Worldwide Ex Jehovah’s Witnesses Internet Meetup (website). There you will find many, many, beautiful spirited people that will welcome you and love you for you! No bashing, no shunning! Just much encouragement and support!
In my country there are JWs on which the newspapers were writing about criminal offenses and are not excluded. Elders say does not want to talk. Former elders remarried and has not excluded. Why? He does not want to talk? And not to mention more examples. For all of us who do not agree with the policy of the WTS that they would not be excluded. Elders simply do not accept the house and do not talk to them about spiritual matters. When they meet on the street just to say, “Excuse me now I have obligations, another time, maybe.” They now will not included to or disconnect us. Who are they to us disfellowshipped only we do not agree with their politics WTS.
DISFELLOWSHIPPING AND PRAYER
Has a child victim of abuse, ever prayed to Jehovah?
Very likely I would imagine……………..If this child then grows up with the question… Why did Jehovah permit me to suffer at the hands of a JW for many years?
Would the victim accept the answer ……Satan caused the suffering, Jehovah permitted it and He alone will seek vengeance in his own time………..
Would most victims respond to Jehovah……………Why then, if this is your true organisation, do ones questioning the two witness rule get D’fd, but those who commit crimes do not get D’fd?………….
I sincerely do not want to offend any victim, but my response would be and my personal belief is, Jehovah must exist, although justice was not done whilst the child was a victim many years ago, may Jehovah use this victim to expose the wrong that probably is still being practised today to another victim.
Did Jehovah hear prayers of those many victims? I have hopes He did.
Did Jehovah act upon those prayers? I believe with the exposing of badness, worldwide His hand plays a role.
Has an Elder ever been disfellowshipped for abuse or wrong doing? Yes many times.
Has a publisher ever been d’fd for trying to expose wrongdoing? Yes many times.
But what about the young child being abused today, can Jehovah answer his/her prayer now ????????????????????????????????
Will his/her abuser be D’fd today if there are not two witnesses?
Will the victim be d’fd for trying to expose the abuser?
Does prayer really play a role?
Anyone care to comment, what do you think?
70wks……..
Good comment 70wksofyrs. You opened my eyes. One detail that is important. All we got away from the abuser escaped to WTS. And here we are abused in many ways. What is the worst life abused child is not destroyed just now, but also when he grows up. That he might not have happened if he was not in “God’s organization.” Families that accepted “truth” always lived in harmony, because no one would be disfellowshipped, etc. Believe in Jehovah God, but away from the WTS.
@Daniel7 ~ “When Israel was at its worst, burning children alive, did Jehovah stop using them?” I’m sorry but I have to clarify one thing that is burning me up!
The nation of Israel was chosen by God and there was no dispute about that as He had DIRECT communication with Abraham and many others and it was absolute, patent and crystal clear who and what there purpose was in outworking of his plans and Bible chronology…There is no mention of The Watchtower Society or Governing Body or any intermediary between Jesus and Jehovah in the Bible, organizationally speaking or otherwise…His loyalty to them was functional and provided the basis for the coming messiah to provide the ransom sacrifice as all took place in fullfillment of prophecy. They were born into that race and culture and had no choice but to follow it’s extremely harsh and strenuous death dealing code of laws. These self serving, ragtag rebels of self appointed and dangerous, destructive “Men of lawlessness” in New York have absolutely no basis to make any such claims whatsoever. Can you provide a basis? Other than their own claims? But are very much accountable for the death and pain and destruction they have caused in the lives of people according to the very Bibles they have published! Jesus did say that what was “hidden would be revealed”…and “twofold justice” would be rendered to those who took it upon themselves…there is no analogy to Israel! For one basic thing, the Israelites never made numerous stabs in the dark and false prophecies and then went back to the same ones over again! Neither did the first century christians…it wasn’t necessary when they had Jehovah’s Spirit!
As a former Jehovah’s witness who decided to disassociate because I no longer believed they are God’s people. Understanding Jesus is Jehovah from the old testament.
The resulting action of disassociating from ther Watchtower was being marked as “shunned”; Their official term being Disfellowshipped. I never sinned against God! Just believed it necessary to seek the genuineness of God on my own terms.
Years later no witness communicates despite my attempts.
So I would like to clarify shunning being a ‘myth’ is complete and
utter lies spoken by false prophets at the Watchtower. It clearly
is showing by it’s denials of such practice, such deceit, that they use mind control. JWs wont see this any of this information exposing their hypocrisy because they are not allowed to.
Dear Anonymous,
You have well defined the problem. The GB have evidently ‘sat themselves on the seat of Moses’. There is hardly anything backing up their claim to be found anymore. Their shunning policy negates the most important quality that Christians should be noted for – love. Let us, however, not be responsible for the same sin; namely the lack of love – even for our ‘enemies’. Even when the North Tribe turned away from worshiping at Jerusalem, there were a precious few that continued not to ‘kiss Baal’, but to worship the true God. I still believe that there can be a Christian life possible within the congregations, even though the ‘tentacles’ of the WTS reach the most distant parts of the Earth. We have to let our light shine in the form of love. We need to direct our attention to the ‘sheep’ individually who are battered and bruised, not only by the WTS but also by a world alienated from God. If we see a ‘dfed’ person we should talk to him/her consolingly and see how long we can ‘get away with it’. To those who appear to us to be ‘lording it over us’, we should try to make allowances for their ignorance and show love to them to the extent possible (see http://www.google.de/imgres?um=1&hl=de&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1024&bih=423&tbm=isch&tbnid=rq_ATmNAwqfOBM:&imgrefurl=http://spirituallythinking.blogspot.com/2012/01/do-it-anyway.html&docid=VFCniJykdDoaRM&imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MeIopbwPCIc/TydjxYutQHI/AAAAAAAAHBs/hKqy9deBEmo/s1600/DoItAnyway.jpg&w=1600&h=1280&ei=SJ9OUYC6CYfPtQaOtIHwDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=581&vpy=109&dur=947&hovh=201&hovw=251&tx=166&ty=160&page=3&tbnh=141&tbnw=176&start=30&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:46,s:0,i:226). Just leave the results up to God. The important thing is that we live in harmony with our consciences that are based on love and not a written codex. We should try to undue the damage when it is in our power to do so. An uprising won’t change the GB, but our love could make life a little more bearable for our brother/sister.
Alden. Interestingly, judicial committees like to place themselves in the seat of Moses and use the Governing Body, who designed this self-serving system, as their authority. Biblically, only Jesus is the Greater Moses, yet humans here claim to be “speaking for Jesus” therefore it follows that they assume the authority. It’s not rocket science.
It’s as you say, there is no need to have any extraordinary evidence to match the extraordinary claims. They act upon their own authority.
All anyone has to do is go to the Moon Valley Congregation in Phoenix or the Monroe North Congregation in Monroe Michigan and do an objective and exhaustive investigation of the crimes and corruption, collusion with authorities that took place there as without being influenced by the suspects and see the classic modus oprandi of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society from top to bottom and accross the Internet…That will never happen in the worthless and inept, “For a Buck” Justice in the State of Arizona but there is modicum of hope outside of Monroe County in Michigan…It’s a wonderful opportunity on so many levels that may never present itself again!
Cedars, Has this survey been posted on the internet? I’d like to read it.
You are right!! I see you have even mentioned John, the Apostle!!
If your education is Acts 4:13, I guess you cannot even count up to ten as people of your education could not count. Now, let me teach you how to count as my education is NOT Acts 4:13:
1. (Matthew 28:1) . . .After the sabbath, when it was growing light on the first day of the week, Mary Mag′da•lene and the other Mary came to view the grave. HOW MANY WOMEN? Two I mean 2.
2. (Mark 16:1) . . .So when the sabbath had passed, Mary Mag′da•lene, and Mary the mother of James, and Sa•lo′me bought spices in order to come and grease him. . .HOW MANY WOMEN? Three (3).
3. (Luke 24:10) . . .They were the Mag′da•lene Mary, and Jo•an′na, and Mary the [mother] of James. Also, the rest of the women with them were telling the apostles these things. . . HOW MANY WOMEN? Three (3) + The rest = Many.
4. (John 20:1) . . .On the first day of the week Mary Mag′da•lene came to the memorial tomb early, while there was still darkness, and she beheld the stone already taken away from the memorial tomb. HOW MANY WOMEN? ONLY ONE (1).
Those are people whose education is Acts 4:13 like you!! They failed HARMONIZE both numbers of women and their stories. Read John 20 you will find a TOTALLY different story from the rest of Gospels!!
Let me come to the TRUTH “Do not argue with the foolish, people will not tell the difference”!!
The fact of the matter is, that there are now many thousands and dare I say millions of families all around the world who are suffering on both sides of the equation in some way because of Watchtower Society policies on disfellowshipping and yes shunning as a result. Even those who have left of going to the meetings are somewhat shunned by the majority in their congregation, family and friends.
I myself was personally disfellowshiped because i had refused to accept that the “faithful and discreet slave” had been inspected and as a result found faithful and appointed over all of Christ’s belongings.
Now if you look at the recent Watchtower article about the “faithful slave” it would appear that my disfellowshipping was a complete farce and based on a lie that the Watchtower Society has perpetrated on it’s members for many years until now, but still the lie of 1914 as the date of the Kingdom been set up as a physical entity still remains on the table. For how long who knows.
Daniel7
It is not entirely true that all those who are disfellowshipped are unrepentent practicers of unrighteousness. A JW can be disfellowshipped for any action perceived as rebellion against the so-called appointed of God, i.e., G.B and elders. For example, I know a sister from the U.S. midwest who was disfellowshipped for speaking out against the then prejudicial policies that would have elders counsel and discourage brothers entering an interracial marriage. This innocent sat in the back and conducted an informal ministry on her own for ten years before being reinstated. It became clear to me that this was not “discipline” from Jehovah; this was barberism!