Jehovah’s Witnesses have long pointed the finger at other religions for being hierarchical, but what does a close examination of their own organization reveal?
As a young boy growing up in the Witness faith, I was taught to think of my religion as an organization with a level playing field, where everyone enjoyed an equal standing before God. Whenever photos were published of the Governing Body, it was always pointed out how approachable and “grandfatherly” they appeared – as though you could walk up to any member and ask him anything!
It was the same with elders, Circuit Overseers and District Overseers. Sure, these men all had lofty titles, but when it all boiled down to it, they were supposed to be no different from ordinary publishers – just with slightly different privileges of service.
As I grew up and began to see different facets of the organization in closer detail, it gradually became obvious that true equality among the brothers was something that existed in theory rather than in practice. A typical example of this could be seen during the twice-yearly Circuit Overseer’s visit, with all the hype and furore surrounding the arrival of a single man and his wife. I could see brothers and sisters bending over backwards to impress this supposedly humble representative of the Society – putting on elaborate dinners for him, taking him on their most impressive calls and bible studies, laughing at his awful jokes, and generally acting all prim and proper whenever in his presence.
Even as an indoctrinated publisher I could see that certain brothers are venerated over others
Even so, regardless of the fact that I saw little practical evidence of true equality among the brothers, I generally accepted the idea that all Witnesses are equal – and that there is no “hierarchy” in our faith. In fact, this wasn’t just an idea circulated among publishers – it was a core concept that was actively promoted in our publications. Other religions may operate a “hierarchical structure,” but not Jehovah’s cleansed people! We are different from false religion. Hierarchical religions, most notably the Catholic Church, are to be vilified and exposed for their “worldly” organizational politics.
To demonstrate, consider the following quotes from the Society’s publications over the decades, each of which denounce the concept of a hierarchical religious structure, or describe it in disapproving terms…
“In contrast with many religious groups in Christendom, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not decide for themselves the form of spiritual government under which they operate. These sincere Christians endeavor to stick to Jehovah’s standards. Overseers among them are not put into office by some congregational, hierarchical, or presbyterian form of church government.” (w01 1/15 p13)
“Sadly, over the centuries this elevated, selfless concept of ministers as self-sacrificing preachers and teachers was distorted. What began as the Christian ministry evolved into a formal, hierarchical institution. Orders and ranks were formed, and they were invested with prestige and power and often accumulated great wealth. This created divisions.” (g00 7/8 p27)
“There was the question of who should serve as elders and deacons in the congregations. To get away from the hierarchical structure prevalent in Christendom, it was concluded that these should be elected democratically by the vote of the members of each congregation.” (w95 5/15 p22)
“As time went by, the number of those claiming to be Christians rose to the millions and then to the hundreds of millions. They developed different kinds of church government, such as hierarchical, presbyterian, and congregational. However, neither the conduct nor the beliefs of these churches reflected the rulership of Jehovah. They were not theocracies!” (w94 1/15 p14)
“Especially since 1919, the enthroned King Jesus Christ has developed a fine condition amid his followers on earth. He has placed among them ‘princes’ (Hebrew, sarim) who do indeed furnish just and loving oversight. In contrast with the oppressive and self-serving rulers so general throughout the world, the King in God’s organization has raised up responsible men who are not revered as hierarchical ‘princes of the church,’ or the like.” (w84 5/15 p16)
“This fading of Christian watchfulness prompted apostate Christians to organize themselves into a well-structured church whose eyes were no longer fixed on the coming parousia, or presence, of Christ but, rather, on dominating its members and, if possible, the world. The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: ‘The [apparent] delay of the Parousia resulted in a weakening of the imminent expectation in the early church. In this process of ‘de-eschatologizing,’ [weakening of the teaching on the 'Last Things'] the institutional church increasingly replaced the expected Kingdom of God. The formation of the Catholic Church as a hierarchical institution is directly connected with the declining of the imminent expectation.” (w84 12/1 p6)
“In the latter part of the 19th century, the Bible Students had a democratic way of governing their congregations; they wanted to get away from an autocratic hierarchical system.” (w81 12/1 p25)
“One’s qualifying as an ‘elder’ or ‘overseer’ was not a matter of ascending a hierarchical ladder, starting with the lowest rung. Catholic theologian Legrand writes: ‘The ordained ministry is not a cursus honorum [race for honors] to be run like climbing the rungs of a hierarchical ladder. In fact, the word hierarchy is not to be found in the Bible.’” (g76 9/8 p27)
“The above-mentioned Thascius Caecilius Cyprian was the bishop of the church in Carthage, Africa. He was born about 200 C.E. and died in 258 C.E. He was a clergyman, called here ‘the father of the hierarchical system,’ one of the body of clergy that existed not much more than a century after the death of Christ’s apostles and their close associates. From that time on, throughout the ‘Dark Ages,’ into the time of the Reformation and the beginning of the Protestant Churches, and down to the present, this clergy-laity distinction has existed in Christendom.” (w75 4/1 p202)
“What wonder, then, that intelligent persons of today who are informed on the kind of rule that prevailed during the time of the popish ‘theocracy’ cannot stomach the thought of God’s rule being about to come, if God’s rule means the restoration of such a hierarchical rule!” (w68 10/15 p618)
“Who, then, is doing the discipling work today? There can be no doubt of this. It is the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. The revival of the work of making disciples is to be found in that organization in these last days. They have freed themselves from the constricting creeds and contaminating false doctrines of the nominal churches. They have freed themselves from the hierarchical, congregational and all other forms of church rule that are unscriptural and they are governed by theocratic rule.” (w66 4/1 p205)
“Interesting is the fact that, though forced to meet underground, those primitive Christians by no means kept their light hidden there. As Christ had commanded, they lifted it high on ‘lampstands’ by a work of public testimony. Though this drew the infuriated malice of many, it introduced untold hope to others who proceeded to associate with the Christian community. Charles Maitland, in The Church in the Catacombs, singles out this proselytizing nature of the Christians as the greatest aggravating factor of their persecution, because of which other charges were trumped up by the authorities. Their harmlessness can be seen in that for the mere reason of secretly celebrating the Lord’s Supper they suffered an official ban. From what can be told by the ancient inscriptions those Christians scorned the hierarchical structure which papal Rome copied from pagan Rome.” (w51 8/15 p486)
“With such a breadth of meaning and variety of application of the Hebrew word sar we can appreciate how the heavenly King reigning in righteousness could have his visible servants on the earth during this perilous time and how these would occupy the position corresponding with what Isaiah 32:1 speaks of as princes (sarím). They would not hold such princely office inside the political systems of this world, because, although they are in the world, they are no part of the world. Neither would they have any such combined political, hierarchical offices such as the higher clergy of the Roman Catholic religious system hold, so that they are called ‘princes of the church.’” (w51 12/1 p721)
As can be clearly seen from the above quotes, the hierarchical structure long-ago adopted by the Catholic Church has been routinely denounced by the Society as unscriptural, autocratic, divisive and prone to encouraging corruption.
But what is a hierarchy? One definition describes it as: “an organizational structure where every entity in the organization, except one, is subordinate to a single other entity. This arrangement is a form of a hierarchy.” This unmistakably describes the Catholic Church, with the Pope at the top – answerable to no one. Certainly in all my years growing up in the organization I never thought of it as a fair way of describing the organizational structure of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After all, we are God’s true organization, and therefore unique from all other religions! We have Christ as our leader, and we receive instruction from God’s holy spirit through the Faithful Slave and its representative Governing Body!
Reality sinks in
Then in 2011 I woke up and was finally able to see the organization for what it truly is – just one of many hierarchical Christian denominations claiming to have the sole backing of God. Once I learned to reason for myself, I could plainly see that there was absolutely no relationship between the Faithful and Discreet Slave class (those claiming to be anointed) and the Governing Body, who claimed to humbly serve as their representatives. In reality, it was the small number of men on the Governing Body who were pulling all the strings, without conferring with anyone else. The Faithful Slave teaching was just their “cover story.”
By revealing their “new light” about the faithful slave, the Governing Body has awarded itself Pope-like status
Then, in October last year (2012), things took an unexpected twist. The Governing Body ditched the idea that all anointed ones make up the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and declared that only they could be so identified. In making this change, many would argue that they were only acknowledging what was already widely recognized – that the Governing Body are the only ones dispensing “spiritual food,” and have been for some time. Ordinary anointed ones have never really had any say in what is published in the literature.
Though somewhat predictable, for myself and many like-minded individuals this change was profound. The Society had, without great fanfare, neatly removed the last distinction between themselves and other hierarchical religions such as the Catholic Church. Previously, they had hidden behind the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine as an excuse to wield power. Now it was surplus to requirements. They declared themselves to be God’s sole channel, giving themselves Pope-like authority in the process.
The changes start to take effect
And it wasn’t long before this authority started to be drilled home unmistakably in our literature. Take a look at this recent illustration from the April 13th Watchtower on page 29…
It doesn’t take a genius to see what is being depicted in this illustration. This is a clear and unambiguous example of a hierarchy – right down to the numbering of the various groups or positions. It is a list of the various operational elements of the Watch Tower Society in a descending order of importance. When you look closely, you notice that even the chairs are more comfortable the higher up the ladder you happen to be! Governing Body members get plush leather executive chairs, while branch office members must make do with plain office swivel chairs. If you are an elder, you can consider yourself lucky to get a school canteen chair! Evidently the more privileged you are in God’s organization, the more seat padding you require.
The Governing Body is now so comfortable with its authority that it sees nothing inappropriate about identifying the individual members on an organizational chart
But there are other things that are noticeable about this illustration on close inspection. You notice that the current Governing Body members have vainly had their likenesses depicted in the illustration so that, when you look closely enough, they are individually recognizable.
Perhaps of most striking significance is the one notable absentee from the illustration – Jesus Christ. True, the Society would likely argue that this is a picture depicting the earthly part of God’s organization, and Christ is in the heavenly part. Even so, this hasn’t stopped the Society from depicting Jehovah on his heavenly chariot in the same illustration. Even some of the angels are present. So why no Jesus? Especially if he is supposed to be “head of the congregation?” (Eph. 5:23)
The answer is simple. Christ plays no role whatsoever in this organization and never actually has. His absence from this illustration may well be an oversight, but it is a telling one. The Governing Body is well and truly in charge, and they want us to know it. They take their orders from nobody but themselves. In this way, they are really no different from the Pope. In fact, take a look at this diagram I have prepared, which I believe demonstrates quite clearly that the hierarchical structures of the Catholic Church and Watch Tower Society are now eerily similar.
If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the above diagram may seem shocking, but it accurately reflects the way things truly are in the organization. It also shows how organizationally similar the Watch Tower Society is to the Catholic Church – the very religion it has spent decades criticizing.
The Society is happy to say one thing in its publications, and another thing in court
Furthermore, you may be shocked to learn that, in at least one court case, Watchtower lawyers have openly admitted that the religion IS a hierarchy just like the Catholic Church. In a recent lawsuit surrounding an ugly power struggle in the Menlo Park congregation, California, a Watchtower attorney by the name of Calvin Rouse told a judge: “We are a hierarchical religion just like the Catholic Church.” A clipping of this shocking statement from the official court manuscript may be viewed below. If you would like to read more about the case in question and download the manuscript, you can do so by clicking here.
And so, even if the Society can’t admit to being a hierarchy in writing (mostly due to the stigma it has attached to that word over the decades), it is quite open about its hierarchical nature in illustrations and when pressed on the matter in a court of law.
Does it matter?
Perhaps, having considered the above information, you are saying to yourself: “But things have always been like this. Why is it such a big deal?” Well, the fact that the Watch Tower Society is a hierarchy is significant for two reasons. Firstly, because a hierarchical structure goes against scripture, and secondly, because they criticize other religious organizations for using the exact same system.
Consider Christ’s words at Matthew 23:6-12
“They [the Pharisees] like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (New World Translation)
By embracing a system where certain brothers in responsible positions are exalted above others, the Society has organized itself in direct contradiction of Christ’s words above. As seen in the Watchtower illustration, the Governing Body has now occupied the most exalted position – just a nudge away from heaven! Everyone else is beneath them. Not only that, everyone must humble themselves before the Governing Body by obeying everything they say. Those who don’t obey them or recognise their leadership are to be disfellowshipped as “apostates” and shunned by their Witness relatives.
Utter Hypocrisy
It is also worth remembering the countless instances over many decades where the Society has denounced the Catholic Church for operating as a hierarchy. Now the “Faithful Slave” doctrine has been re-written, and what do we see? The Watch Tower Society now has an almost identical organizational structure to the religion it has spent decades criticizing – even claiming to be fulfilling prophecy in the process (in the Revelation Climax book). Yes, our organization really is no different from any other Christian denomination, and the hypocrisy of it all is breathtaking.
The gradual and insidious nature of the Governing Body’s aquisition of greater power and prominence is reminiscent of Orwell’s Animal Farm
The whole thing reminds me of the much-loved parable “Animal Farm” by George Orwell, which I was taught in school. Intended as a cautionary warning against communism, Orwell’s story describes an uprising in which a group of animals seize control of their own farm by ousting their abusive farmer overlord. However, once the animals gain control, gradually the “top” animals who are in charge (the pigs) become corrupt. They begin with a commandment that reads “all animals are equal,” but gradually, over a period of time, this is changed to read “all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” By the end of the story, the pigs become just as abusive as the farmer they ousted.
The overall message of Orwell’s short story is that “power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” When you look at the Governing Body and the way they are gradually maneuvering doctrine to further exalt their position in the organization, it is not difficult to draw parallels with the pigs in Animal Farm. If you haven’t yet read the story, you can download it as a PDF on this link.
A reason to stop and ponder
In conclusion, I believe that thinking Witnesses all over the world need to pause and meditate on page 29 of the April 15th 2013 Watchtower. They need to look long and hard at that illustration and ask themselves the following difficult questions:
- Is this really what I dedicated my life to serve when I got baptized?
- Are Jehovah’s Witnesses really any different from any other religion if they have such a clearly defined hierarchy, which is almost identical to the Catholic Church?
- How can the Governing Body justify performing such a huge u-turn by awarding itself Pope-like status?
- Why observe their command to not investigate objective information about the organization when it is changing before my very eyes into something I can no longer respect or admire?
Another well done composition,I appreciated the graphics.The Watchtower organization is hierarchical and submission to that arangement is constantly stressed.-Danny Haszard Bangor Maine
As you know Cedars we recently had a long discussion of ‘that’ picture on JWN. It was interesting hearing everyones view on it.
I think as far as the hierarchy concept goes, JWs in their hearts know full well that certain ones in the organisation have power over others. They know for instance that ministerial servants are purely the elders assistants. They cannot do the same work as the elders do. They are also aware that the circuit overseer has the power to change the things that the elders have put in place.
I believe they see the differences as being firstly the clothes that are worn. All JW men generally wear the same type of clothes. Certainly their is no fancy costume like the Catholics and some others have.
Also the elders do not have fancy titles, like Archbishop of Canterbury, the pope, his holiness and so on. They also know they can talk fairly easily to these men and have them round for a meal once in a while. So there are differences, but as you say it is still a hierarchy system, they just have not admitted it up to now.
I think the governing body have no choice if they are to keep the organisation growing. They have to stamp their authority in the minds of the witnesses. There is so much negative publicity about the governing body on the internet, they are simply fighting back.
Of course it is wrong, but I can see exactly why they are doing it. And I think the witnesses would expect ‘God’s reps’ to show their authority. Witnesses have always been told this is God’s organisation. It is the governing body who are responsable to God for feeding the sheep. So they actually fully approve when they are at an assembly and they are told all the above. I can hear them chearing now!
So it’s good you have written an article on it, I hope it will make some think again. But the picture and its message will do very little to the average JW. The mind control is simply to strong.
Jesus showed the greatest lessen of being a true christian..
namely, humility, when he washed the feet of his disciples.
This blog as highlighted what I saw at conventions too!
Where rank and file sat in front around football stadiums
freezing, getting wet and protection from cold winds.
While others where given access to VIP boxes with heating,
hot meals prepared for them and constant feed of drinks
at the rear of the stage part of the stadium.
Of course, humility, was shown here among the hierarchy
- Not!
The mere fact that Elders are permitted to commit crimes and not held at all to judicial standards and committees as well as the long standard of “Put ‘em up on the Platform” as well as “Rape the Sheep and Praise the Wolves” from the Platform which has been done for decades is evidence of that…If the average congregation had any Idea what their Elders were guilty of and by standards should be Disfellowshipped for? They would be flabbergasted! I know this to be fact and can testify in Court as well as have witnesses and documented evidence to back up the things I say…
And at the very bottom of this ladder are women, individuals who are not even allowed to STAND UP while performing parts at Kingdom Hall stages.
When you read the context of the statement quoted in that 84 watchtower, I feel your point is strengthened and describes the JWs actions today.
The delay of the Parousia resulted in a weakening of the imminent expectation in the early church. In this process of “de-eschatologizing,” the institutional church increasingly replaced the expected Kingdom of God. The formation of the church as a hierarchical institution is directly connected with the declining of the imminent expectation. The theology of Augustine constitutes the conclusion of this development in the West. He de-emphasized the original imminent expectation by declaring that the Kingdom of God has already begun in this world with the institution of the church, which is the historical representative of the Kingdom of God on Earth. The first resurrection, according to Augustine, occurs constantly within the church in the sacrament of baptism, through which the faithful are introduced into the Kingdom of God. The expectation of the coming Kingdom of God, the resurrection of the faithful, and the Last Judgment have become a doctrine of the “last things” because the gifts of salvation of the coming Kingdom of God are interpreted as being already present in the sacraments of the church.
I really liked this article and appreciate you pointing out the utter hypocrisy on display in the illustration they used. Seriously! Y U NO SHOW JESUS?! (insert rage comic) If they were truly humble, they would have depicted Jesus to illustrate their submission to him, rather than grandly showing themselves to be subject to no one but Jehovah. That illustration is SO telling.
And the anointed apparently count for nothing. This spiritual class, allegedly chosen by Jesus, counts for nothing in this man-made organizational structure. Wish my dad would see this.
Cedars, you couldn’t be any more wrong about me. And I think you know that you are, because you clearly ignore the comments I make about the JDubs being seriously wrong in their beliefs. I am an ex witness and know them very well, and I still have family in it. And the other sad thing you failed to realize was that I was standing up for the Catholic Church, which I am in the process of being confirmed into. Pleas do answer my question about your opinions of other religions, I am curious to know where they rank in your favor.
Greg – you say…
“you clearly ignore the comments I make about the JDubs being seriously wrong in their beliefs”
I have yet to meet a Watchtower apologist who doesn’t sprinkle his rhetoric with something to make him sound objective for the higher purpose of undermining an apostate viewpoint. A frequent intro you guys use is, “I’m not even a JW but…”
I have no reason to believe your back story, and I would rather take it at face value given that every remark you have so far made on this website has been supportive of the organization’s standpoint and derisory of mine.
You also say…
“Pleas do answer my question about your opinions of other religions, I am curious to know where they rank in your favor.”
I have no interest in “ranking” religions. I believe people are entitled to believe what they want, but they should at least be aware of religions that might be detrimental to themselves or others. If you are so interested in my religious views, please read my article: http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/is-jwsurvey-org-an-apostate-website
Cedars
I believe we all need to remember that hopefully current JWs read these comments as well. Sometimes ex witnesses slam into the organisation on really stupid totally unimportant aspects of the religion. If a witness can see that taking place they will immediately turn off. It does not matter how many good points are made, if they can see something stupid that someone has written, that then vindicates their position, and they forget all the good points that are made. So unlike the Watchtower we really need to be sure of our facts not just surmising about something, but knowing what we are saying is totally true and is proven. Witnesses will accept guesses from the org, but not from ex witnesses.
“So unlike the Watchtower we really need to be sure of our facts not just surmising about something, but knowing what we are saying is totally true and is proven. Witnesses will accept guesses from the org, but not from ex witnesses.”
I’m intrigued. You must have something specific in these comments in mind when you say that?
@Greg How much time have you spent in that organization that you feel authorized to contest the lessons of those of us who have spent decades dealing with it from the inside… and outside?
few over the many – the world’s standard
I regularly go on witness websites. Topix for example. And while most ex witnesses write sensible things that are totally provable there are others who claim all sorts of wrong things, and of course these are pounced on by witnesses.
I once said to my JW son something about when the internet first started and because I was out by a couple of years, it just nullified the many other true things that I told him.
So I am not going to point fingers, just to say we all need to be sure of something we say is fact.
Amen, Tom. I was thinking the same thing. When I was widowed about 20 yrs ago, the elders spoke down to me as a woman in a casual conversation at the KH. It shocked me so much, that I immediately reminded them that the head of the household was the husband, and the head of the husband was Christ; just like I was being taught at the time. Since I had no husband any longer, than my head was also Christ, the same as theirs and that we were on equal footing and I was not to be talked down to. The elders had nothing further to say to me and just walked away.
With the changes through the years, women can’t get on any sort of equal footing no matter how hard they try.
Wow you guys get so worked up about these articles. Who cares what the JW members think is right or wrong. They have had false thoughts fed to them for years and still believe them. This article is for me and those that want to heal from the pain this organization caused us over the years. What Cedars tells us in this article is old news to me. I have had my visions of the future in which this organization is disbanded and creates alot of pain for its members it leaves behind in its aftermath. This is when they herd the sheep into their pens and only gather up those they deem worthy of keeping. In the coming years the craziness is only going to get more bizarre. Apostates or opponents against this group rarely affect this membership due to the fact that a specific state of mind must be groomed and maintained. Those that question the material put themselves at risk of removal and thus correct this thinking by ignoring it. I am so tired of the statement that this is Jehovah’s Organization and what do you expect when imperfect men are doing his work because mistakes are made and later corrected. The regular justification of these errors only proves that men are truly running this organization. The difference between this group and the next is the name and doctrine. If you believe then you know that you can be anywhere in this Universe and see the love of our Grand Master Creator. My confession is that for more than twenty years I was a zombie believer and was on the fast track to becoming an elder but my former wife loved me so much she opened my mind to another world. It took years to break free from their grasps and yet a part of me is still connected to its members. But as a man of reason and truth what Cedars is telling you is truth. The more things change they remain the same. If we cannot help those lost find their way back to the TRUTH then we have truly failed them all. I respect all views and will not argue points but please use LOVE to guide your words as this is the Ultimate Weapon. Thanks CEDAR.
Thank you for the kind and heart felt comment Magnusknight. I am trying to let go of my bitterness I have only started my new journey of research about 2 months ago, this is all fresh information to me. I feel that I have more zeal in my heart to teach others about the falsehood than I originally had in the “truth”. I truly want a relationship with my Creator and His Son Jesus, I need to figure out how to do that and what to believe now, so I am basically a spiritual babe again. I want to purge all the “crap” I’ve been taught out of my system. I don’t even know what bible to read anymore. I am truly lost but searching! I found it very interesting that I kindly questioned my mother about (our mediator, GB and the generation) she couldn’t answer me as I wanted all the answers from the Bible she got very angry and asked me who I had been talking to and to not question the Society. I am sad for my mom she is 83yrs old I feel bad so I don’t upset her with my questions. I dis have some good friends the the truth, are they all that blind though I thought they would be more intelligent than this!
The reality is that years of indoctrination plays a huge role on their psyche. In order to break this hold on their mind a violent tragic event must occur to shift their thoughts away to allow new ones to emerge. If any of them are weak minded nothing will likely change. The void they may have had in their life was filled by the teachings of their faith so they cling tightly to it screaming and kicking. I could walk up to elder and tell him that his wife is cheating but with their policies of the two eyewitness rule it would be overlooked. When elders in a congregation are given judicial authority they begin to think they are judges. If members need help or guidance they ask an elder which usually sets them straight. Women must obey the rules of men and faithfully follow these men as the Bible instructs them. Do not blame her as she is only aware of the world she was shown. The concept of socialization helps explain it better overall. If she was involved in Group Socialization the group influences her behavior or cultural norms as you can see the JW’s do in her life. Negative socialization is used as punishment in order to control or condemn those that do not follow those set norms. The social norm of the group is to not question the authority given the GB by Jehovah because the implied result is that Satan the Devil may have a hold on your mind and deceive you. It is different case by case but if you understand how this group targets the individual mind and molds it through group norms and their group behavior then you can grasp the concept. I found that the use of love can break some of these barriers but it takes work. When you believe something for years and then someone challenges it, the mind becomes defensive and can shut down or act violently to protect it from harm. I am not a doctor but through my studies and research I have discovered how to break these cycles. I only hope my words can supply some comfort to your pain as I traveled the same road before. We all need each other and if others want to chat we should thank Cedars for this forum. Thanks Cedar.
Thanks Cedars for another thought provoking article as well as for attaching links to the Menlo Park Court Case. That quotation from the Menlo documents is very telling, though as some of your readers have mentioned, many of us have always known that “some are more equal than others,” although we are told that we are all brothers.
I’ll be honest and admit that this not been brought to my attention, I might not have noticed that the picture showing WTS’ version of God’s organization excludes Jesus (the head of the Christian Congregation) simply because we have been trained to be inattentive to details. I am sure that if any reader here shows JWs this picture, very few will notice that Jesus is missing. Many of us have become what Magusknight1974 calls Zombie Believers.
It’s interesting that the real ‘TRUTH’ about the WTS usually comes out in court documents. I have downloaded the Menlo court documents in order to study them closely.
they show more and more their leadership shaped by the Jesuits.
the governing body sitting of fat arm chairs, the clerks in the branches sitting od whell chairs and the elders sitting on camping chairs funnily express their evauation of the value of them.
A pioneer surely will have a milkining stool while the publishers are sitting legged.
This GErman website offers also participation for English speaking peoples. it is dedicated to follow alone the Christ and not human leaders:
http://www.bruderinfo.de/?page_id=526
you may start to read there and to give comments.
By the way, the latest Watchtower from April 15th 2013 shows on page 24 a gigantic penis, formed by lightenings in the centre of the picture.
That underlines their satanic dedication.
The GB say that “new light” says that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. But of course we know that is NOT new light because that is the way it has been for years. But now they are officially saying it and officially elevating themselves above the rest of the anointed. Over the years the Watchtower has refered to the “elevated clergy class” (Example w96 2/15 Joyful Now and Forever). So now I see them (the GB) as “the elevated anointed class”. They are indeed giving themselves a “Pope like status”!
The GB are ensuring that the members fully understand you never question them and only their interpretations should be followed. Others claiming to be of the anointed class do not matter – they are truly just another member being instructed like the rest.
I’m grateful for your site and others like this. It goes to show you that there is nothing special about JW. I was a born-in, raised to believe this was “the truth” and everything else was wrong. I couldn’t see reality. To analyze the organization is to see cultish behavior. If one chooses to serve God, an org is not necessary. Why give 7 men control of your life?
Hi Cedars,
Fantastic article thank you for posting it. I could hardly agree more about it being stressed from the beginning of my association with witnesses that “You are all brothers…” but it was far from that in practice. Regularly the Presiding Overseer would throw his weight around amon the other elders. Also many of the Elders C.o’s and D.o’s were haughty.
The quotes you made from the publications showing the watchtower society criticising the RC church or other hierarchical religions are proof that “By your words you will be condemned..” or “he catches the wise in their own cunning..” They have caught themselves out.
When you stated the following:-
“just one of many hierarchical Christian denominations claiming to have the sole backing of God”
I Wholeheartedly agreed here, personally after researching Adventism and the Millerites and their failed prophecies and coming to realise Russell etc only rehashed these old beliefs was a revelation to me. Proving the JW’s are just another Millenialist sect.
I still can hardly credit the fact that “The Generation who saw 1914 with eyes of understanding ARE in fact passed off the earthly scene” How many years was that LIE on page 2 of the mags? I recently asked a pioneer cousin of mine about that and she exclaimed – “Oh, we don’t believe that anymore!” Absolutely hilarious how she couldn’t see the problem with that.
Great how the GB have ditched the “Slave” part and turned themselves into “Governors” hmm? So much for do NOT be called leaders.
The parallels you point out with George Orwell’s Animal farm are all true. Where the GB are the “anti-typical” Pigs.
But I suggest the parallels are even more sinister than that if we look at Orwell’s 1984, with Big-brother, thought police, re-writing history and Two-minute hates (ministry school talks).
Again many thanks for a thought provoking article.
Tamethyst
As with many EX JWS beginning again is like walking up hill!
Already tired from the journey on a wrong road then having to turn back and go back to where you went astray. Finding you got less eagerness to find the real path/truth in wake of the fear of being misled AGAIN! Having left the WT.org myself 2 years ago. I too am lost which direction to take. Yet, you can see from the replies many ex jws are taking different paths to find the truth.
But personal bible study in a unbiased bible is the key to learning what lies you have been told at the watchtower.org.
After throwing out much of the stored away JW literature, I felt a great weight of misfortune lift off me. So it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that their literature is demonically ‘blessed’, rather than Godly blessed.
Although, Hebrews 10:23-25, still drives me to find God’s real people, who surely must be gathered together somewhere?!
Above message was a ‘reply’ to Shannon. Obviously, didn’t link to her comment. Apologies.
Greg,
In regard to both your comments here I think you do Cedars an extreme disservice as he has pointed out. But I “Like” how you started your crit of this well researched and written article with… “The Jay dubs are definitely wrong in their beliefs..” Hmm!! I’ve got news for you- so are the Roman Catholic Church wrong in their beliefs. I suggest you read “Vicars Of Christ- The Dark Side Of The Papacy by Peter DeRosa before you join another crazy religion. And I have got news for you, the RC Church has not been around since the start of christianity. Do some research please.
Tamethyst
Cedars
Excellent article! Congratulations!
Another point to consider with regards to the (un)expected change about the ‘faithful and discrete slave’ is the growth in the number of memorial partakers in the last years. The current trend indicates that more and more middle-age individuals are claiming to being part of such a group. The former belief established that any member of the anointed had the duty of dispensing spiritual food to Jesus’ domestics. Based on this, any new anointed would have naturally felt compelled to fulfil this responsibility. It was just a matter of time for the GB members to realise that sooner or later their positions of authority would have been compromised. To cover their backs (and keep a reserved seat on the boardroom table), they simply changed the doctrine while twisting once more the scripture.
This is so evident, they are not even trying to cover it up anymore.
In a different note, can you please comment on the box published on the WT 01/2013 (public) page 8 titled ‘HAVE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES GIVEN INCORRECT DATES FOR THE END?’?
I had mixed emotions when I first red it. On one hand, one may argue that nobody is perfect, we make mistakes and they have come clean at last. But on the other hand, do they really think that a half-page acknowledgement is enough to erase 100+ years of false predictions? What about those who were greatly affected by their We-are-the-only-channel fantasy? Those who never married, didnt go to university, put off having children, etc, etc, etc, for fear of being labelled unfaithful. It is really shameful.
Thanks
Hi heroe,
Firstly, that statement by the Society about wrong dates is NOT an apology. It is one thing to acknowledge that you have made mistakes in the past – it is another thing entirely to apologise for those mistakes and make recompense.
Secondly, even if the Society were to apologise for their false predictions, this would be meaningless unless they dropped their cruel laws regarding shunning. If they are only human and therefore prone to making mistakes, this should be reflected in how they treat their flock. It is certainly disgusting and morally repugnant to severely punish someone (i.e. disfellowshipping, shunning) for disagreeing with you when you admit to being wrong on occassion.
Cedars
What an interesting article and Oh so true!
There’s no better place to see clearly that the Watchtower Organisation is a hierarchy than in Bethel. .the ‘house of God ‘…it IS the Animal Farm. ..
anyone who has ever lived/worked at any bethel knows well the importance given to rank and position..when Jesus said that ‘you are all brothers’ he wasn’t talking to JWs and most definately not bethelites.
Everything at bethel is about position. …the brothers are mostly very ambitious…sucking up to the branch committee members and their wives to get ahead….just being a table head or table foot in the dining room is a position that comes with power…
although all the brothers are of good standing,not all qualify to offer a prayer at Morning Worship or the monday night Watchtower Study. .
There is clear preferential treatment given to brothers in authority and their wives in everything even in work assignments and rooms…
The single sisters and sisters whose husbands are not in positions of authority are at the very bottom of the ranks/pyramid…although they do the back breaking work. ..literally…
The Watchtower organisation is indeed the Animal Farm!
Again, an excellent article and I completely agree with everything you said. I think you clearly make your points every time I read your writings. I appreciate that you are not afraid to expose the “TRUTH” for the “LIE” that it really is! Good job. Keep up the good work Cedars. I, for one, really appreciate your hard work and honesty especially for those of us have been hurt and lied to for decades! Bless you. Sincerely, Debbie Moore (Nebraska)
I forgot to mark the notifications info. Thats all this post is for!
Hi heroe, I dont think you need Cedars or anyone elese’s comments about that wrong dates statement. The society have spent the last 130 years giving dates to the witnesses and then getting it completly wrong. Because they believed the gov body, many witnesses completely ruined their lives by selling houses to pioneer, putting off important medical treatment, and getting into debt. All because the society all but guarranteed the end was nigh.
I am an anointed, and I’m also mental ill. I was mental ill a few years after I was anointed, there were different reasons, but I’m not giving up. I was chosen as a Jehovah’s Witness, so I think Jehovah’s Witnesses are practicing true Christianity.
We must focus on Jesus’ words and teachings, follow Jesus. Love our fellow man and our enemies.
We must preach the kingdom of God, and make new disciples of Jesus. God wants us to listen to Jesus, and believe in Jesus.
We must love one another.
@anonymous: Nice to see that you are ‘determined’ to carry on while suffering from mental illness. However, we must not forget
satan is very crafty! From the bible, especially, when choosing priests in the old testament; God was absolutely picky with whom were chosen. Both physically and spiritually! Could be no defects like baldness, etc.
And many religious members claim to gain God’s holy spirit; saying they are ‘anointed’.
But we should never ever forget what God says in the bible about, if a prophet speaks and it does not come true, God did not send him.
Therefore, as many as the false predictions of the End are from the Watchtower and now their admission to declaring them.
JWs now need to spiritully wake up and think. Is God a liar or the
Watchtower, for giving out false “Time of the End” prophecies?
For all who sincerely believe the God of the bible know, it is written,
every word coming from God will be fulfilled.
It is now known that the year 1914 CANNOT be reconciled with the Bible. If a religious organisation claims they use the Bible as the basis for their prophetic teachings. Revelation stipulates that a Time, Times, and half a Time is 1260 days and this works to 2520 days (then ‘converted’ to Biblical ‘prophetic’ years) when doubled to ‘seven times.’ The WTBTS then tells us that this is 360 days x 7, then there is no Biblical principle that allows this religion to change the ‘average lunar year’ (360 days) to modern solar years (365.25 days) to come up to 1914 of the SOLAR calendar. If so, where is this principle?
Why can Christ not come in 1878 AD (solar calendar)? He left without fanfare, why must he return amid war? The fact is, though, that if the WTBTS admitted this deliberate error, their ‘Divine authority, by their own chronological workings, disappears.
Eisegesis is necessary to make the round peg fit the square hole.
Everything you describe that makes a “true Christian” is common to all claims made by Christendom today – what makes you think Jehovah’s Witnesses are different then, Anonymous?
As to hierarchy, it is in the nature of humanity to dominate. Authority must come from somewhere. If it doesn’t exist one must tote a gun or toy with minds of the naive. For those who have suffered through the WTBTS inquisitional judicial system (an eisegetic human construction – not Biblical) they will know that it can only survive on the basis that all in attendance merely believe it is a ‘theocratic arrangement’ (the word “theocratic” is not found in the Bible.
No one would argue the effectiveness of the system, but…a gift from a loving God?
When counsel states in court an organization is hierarchical , it is hierarchical. Jesus viewpoint is all of you are brothers. No one better or more important than another. I thought the seating in the illustration said volumes. Jesus example, washing the feet of his disciples has all but been forgotten in this day and age.
The main thing the society have done wrong is to tell people For decades that they were different from the churches, in that they didn’t have a hierarchy. However when you think about it logically there is no way you can run a worldwide preaching campaign without men organising and arranging everything in a structured way. If we are to understand Jesus words to mean taking the good news to all countries, then you have to have that sort of arrangement.
This is just one more instance of the gov body slagging off others when it is doing the same thing itself. It is happening all the time.
They slag off the churches for child sex abuse, yet they have the same in their org. They say they are no part of the world then get caught with their trousers down in bed with the UN.
They say their families are much happier and united in the JW org, and yet, they are actually the cause of thousands of family break ups every year. I could go on.
Bottom line is whatever or whoever they are slagging off, most times you will find the same thing happening in their own religion.
They are no different to the rest and sometimes they are a lot worse than the churches of Christendom.
Jehovah’s Witnesses use the name of God. And worship the one true God, Jehovah.
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not worship the beast, they are politically neutral. All who worship the beast will lose life. It’s in the book of Revelation.
Another thing is that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not learn to wage war, and they do not participate in the nation’s wars.
Jehovah’s Witnesses strive to love one another.
Jehovah’s Witnesses preach about God’s Kingdom.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a leader, Jesus Christ. they should be one fold, that we see today.
We can not expect perfection from imperfect people.
Just like to address the points you made. Firstly no one knows the correct pronunciation Of God’s name, and it certainly isn’t Jehovah as the society openly acknowledge.
They were caught in bed with the beast when they became a NGO with the United Nations, an organisation they had had been bad mouthing and condemning for decades.
It’s true they do not join in war, which means others have to do it for them to protect JWs property and their rights.
Like many they strive to show love, but fail miserably when any member disagrees with a certain doctrine of the society and decides to leave. More often than not that love and friendship suddenly goes flying out the window.
They claim to have the JW message in all lands. In fact half the world’s population have never heard the message, and most of the rest have no idea what the societies doctrines are.
In the latest April 15th Watchtower their is a picture of God’s heavenly and earthly organisation. There is no sign of Jesus at all in the picture.
Still apparently none of that matters as they are not perfect lol
@anonymous
The worst part when I think about the fact that we, Jehovah’s Witnesses, use the name of God is that different from all other churches of Christendom, when we make serious mistakes, we bring reproach not just upon ourselves but upon Jehovah’s name. It is a very serious thing indeed to bear the name of God. (Exodus 20:7) We worship the true God, yet our organization tries to make its words as if they were GOD’S, not allowing its members to doubt it even in their hearts. Just look at what was said in the last district convention in talks like “Avoid Testing Jehovah in Your Heart”. It’s almost as if the organization is trying to put itself in the same level as God.
We do not worship the beast, in fact, we have always condemned it, yet that didn’t stop the Watchtower from becoming a member of the UN. And worse yet, to dissociate itself from it only after the fact came to light. We are neutral, but while brothers in Malawi died to adhere to Bible principles, brothers in Mexico were allowed to get away with bribery in order to escape imprisonment because they didn’t go to war.
We do love one another, to the extent that we obey what the GB tells us. If we are not seen to be zealous enough, to be regularly in field service, regular at the meetings, etc., and if we do things that others may not approve of, be it in entertainment, grooming, pursuit of education, amount of time spent in secular activities and so on, the way people treat us may change if we do not seem to respond to the ‘help’ they may try to give us. Much of that are personal matters, things that should be between the individual and Jehovah but which end up being policed by others. It’s a culture encouraged by the Watchtower. It’s almost as if the love we show is conditional.
We mistakenly preach that Jesus has been ruling in kingly power since 1914 when the Bible makes no mention whatsoever of dates, the basis for that assertion is shaky at best, misleading at worst, and Jesus clearly said that “it does not belong to you to get knowledge of the appointed times which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” (Acts 1:7, footnote) Some of us have based entire life choices in statements about the end that were later proved to be nothing further than the truth.
The question about leadership is this: are we really following the Christ? Or are we being led by men to places that the Christ would never lead us? When the GB says that only through them can the Bible be correctly understood, their lawyers say that we are a hierarchy like the Catholic Church, they elevate themselves higher than the apostles even though they are not such (the apostles never expected unquestionable obedience even though they were inspired, which the GB is not)—is that really what Christ taught? Is that the first-century Christianity that he started? Was there even a ‘governing body’ in the first century? If we follow the Christ, why haven’t we depicted him in the April 15 Watchtower hierarchy chart? For crying out loud, HE is the king of the kingdom we have been preaching. We are one fold, but we forget that we have lowest retention rate: Only 37% of all those who say they were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses still identify themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you disagree with core teachings or traditions you either hide it, fade, or leave.
True, we can’t expect perfection from imperfect humans. And these imperfect humans shouldn’t, therefore, (1) expect unquestionable obedience to them especially when they have been proved wrong in the past, (2) imply or claim that their words should be viewed as God’s only to be changed later as ‘clarified understanding’, something that NEVER happened in Bible times, (3) refuse to ADMIT their mistakes and APOLOGIZE for any damage caused to the flock, and (4) refuse to change their stance or doctrines when these have been/are being proved to be dangerous, wrong, inflexible, unhelpful, and damaging (just look at the child abuse cases that have happened).
If we are God’s organization on earth, and will continue to denounce false religion for their practises, their fruits (we have to, in order to show the difference between true and false religion), continue to claim only we do God’s will on earth, we have to do much better than this to represent him befittingly, we have to remove the rafter from our own eyes first. If it is God’s organization it cannot make serious, grave mistakes. If it does it has to take very quick steps to rectify them, turn around, and repent. And that is not what it is doing at the present time.
Before I thought I was Partly responsible with the Governing Body’s decisions, since they represented all anointed. But now I am relieved and the Governing Body alone is the faithful and discreet slave. We are not responsible anymore.
But we are Jehovah’s Witnesses, and people can go with us. We are a group under Jesus’ leadership.
@anonymous
According to the Governing Body they were always the only ones responsible for providing food at the proper time even before the latest change in the understanding of Matthew 24:45-47. They said only some men were used to provide spiritual food in the first century and that the apostles never consulted the rest of the anointed to decide doctrine. Now they say even the apostles were not the faithful and discreet slave.
That does not, however, take away any responsibility from individual witnesses to defend the truth from God’s word and use it to expose the lies that besmirch his name. “If these remained silent, the stones would cry out.”—Luke 19:40.
I’m not sure what you mean by “we are Jehovah’s Witnesses”, “people can go with us.” Are you saying we can be independent from the Governing Body? That is not what they’ll you. They’ll advise you against an ‘independent spirit’ or ‘independent thinking.’ You can be labelled an apostate for openly espousing views contrary to the the organization’s teachings.
“We are a group UNDER Jesus’ leadership.” So where is he above us in the April 15 Watchtower picture on pg 29? And why are we still teaching things like ‘the overlapping anointed generations from 1914 will be on hand when Jesus comes back’, ‘Jesus was enthroned in 1914′, ‘only if there are two witnesses to a child abuse crime can we do something about the case’? Oh, and what about the very own hierarchy picture and Watchtower denunciations of other hierarchical religions? Is that what Jesus’s leadership and Matthew 23:8 mean: “Do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas ALL YOU ARE BROTHERS?”
I try not to think about such issues, I only get a headache. We must be content with being one of the lesser brethren, preach, love each other and other people. Then we will see how Jesus judges us when he comes. not many should be teachers. We must remember that teachers should receive a stricter judgment. So it is important to think carefully if you want to become a teacher.
Alan …you summed it up perfectly to this “Clown” who thinks that the society is the true faith. First of all if he really thought that…. he would not be on these websites (as the holy boys (GB) say don’t venture outside of our sandbox or you will be counselled, or lose priveeges. (since when is carrying a microphone a privelege?
I will one day let this all rest but right now I am very heated to know that they took 30 yrs of my life, I really would like to call them up in the legal dept 1-845-306-1000, and ask if it is THEM I sue for taking half my brain!..also are these “lawyers” crazy to be giving their services free when they could be out earning a decent living and living in more that a 1 room dorm!
@anonymous
I agree, loving each other, helping others follow the Christ, those are the most important things.
Again, I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about being a teacher or becoming teachers.
Nevertheless, if you ‘try not think about these issues, and to be content with being of the lesser brothers’, then what on earth are you doing here? Your words betray you.
I, for one, can’t stand by whilst Pharisees and oppressive wolves inside the congregation destroy innocent lives.
Point One: You are right, use of the anglicised name of the Tetragrammaton does distinguish the religion, but that’s where it ends.
Point Two: For many many years the WTBTS spoke of the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church for its involvement with the UN. Did you not know of the scandal that broke about the NGO status of the WTBTS for nearly ten years, Anonymous? It’s still is using the UN for its own purposes. I can supply documents if you wish.
Point Three: Like all other religions, the WTBTS wages war in its own way, employing battle tactics such as “Theocratic War Strategy,” well-known particularly among more experienced Witnesses. Many have been the innocent victims of this form of warfare.
Point Four: It may be true that individual Witnesses try to love one another. The WTBTS, however, sets up systems involving judicial committees that are not Biblical to interrogate, judge, and cull out weaker members – is this loving? Shunning policies, likewise, have split many a family – is THIS a loving practise?
Point Five: All religions preach their version of ‘the Kingdom.’ When was the Kingdom established? 1914? Actually, using the Bible’s internal calendar, used by the WTBTS regarding the coronation of Christ comes to 1878 AD, not 1914. This is non-negotiable or the WTBTS cannot claim they are using the Bible to work this date out.
2520 x 360 (7 Times, Bible’s ‘lunar’ years) = 1878 AD
2520 x 365.25 (7 Times, modern solar years = 1914 AD
Point 6: Many accuse the WTBTS as setting up a form of idol worship, placing the Governing Body on the pedestal as Christ’s representatives on Earth (imperfect men, as you call them). Having removed all other spirit-anointed ones from among the ranks of Faithful and Discreet Slave, they have promoted themselves to the most powerful men on Earth. It is even claimed that they have interjected themselves into the chain of salvation. As to “one fold” the Internet has many things to teach ones like yourself, Anonymous.
Finally, one can only use the “I’m just imperfect” defence if all of this was done without intention. The documented evidence shows otherwise.
Anything else, Anonymous?
Frank
Hi Frank,
I like your point about “Theocratic War Strategy” this would be where we can act like RAHAB or JACOB and lie our way out of trouble? Or refuse to give information to “Those who don’t deserve it” You can detect behind this type of weasel word stuff how they can have secret lists of those they consider sexual “predators” and a refusal to co-operate with the “Superior authorities” by informing the police etc about abusers. The RC church did exactly the same to try to avoid any shame coming on them, hence they hid abusive priests. He catches the wise in their own cunning.
I would say organizational instead of a hierarchy,
organization is crucial for practically everything, there is a head of household that normally has the last word, the final decision, otherwise nothing would get done.
I will admit that some brothers and sisters go overboard adulating elders and other brothers with some responsibility in the organization, that is just being human, some people do that others don’t, i prefer to see the brother if at all after all the hoopla.
It is also true that lately there has been a trend in self congratulations, look at us we are so good, living in a spiritual paradise and such.
With the new understanding now
GOD HAS NOT CLEANSED THE ORG
that means that the slaves are mixed, the good is in with the bad.
Hi Peter. Personally I don’t have a problem with the need for hierarchy. It is how the hierarchy is perceived. If a religious organisation’s ethics are no better than those of “Satan’s World” (unbiblical judicial system, shunning etc) then that religious organisation boasting is hollow. Unfortunately, they have become “masters of our faith.”
Recently, one JW at a recent convention told of a high-ranking official’s (Australian branch) welcome to the stage as being like that of a rock star. Is this what it’s come to?
The self-congratulatory accent with the WTBTS is not that recent. I think we are just more sensitive to their need to raise themselves up amid the revelations being discovered on the Internet. No one in “Satan’s World” will do it, so they do it themselves. Recently convention speakers spoke of how humble the GB were and that they most wouldn’t even know their name. Where would this information have come from when it is all vetted by the GB?
What’s the saying: “self-praise is no recommendation.”?
Makes you think, doesn’t it.
Frank
Yes, Tamethyst
As a JW I was brought up to believe that all lying was wrong. Now I find out that only lying to members of the organisation is ALWAYS wrong! The Internet has brought home to genuine searchers of truth that TWS can ‘cover a multiple of sins.
I don’t have a problems with an old-world prostitute telling lies. The problem arises later when the New Testament proclaims this woman a “righteous” person, making her an example to follow for a modern, more ethical generation. The fact is, the Bible’s morality is fluid.
Frank
Frank,
The internet has been amazing and I think a saviour for many a tormented soul worrying that they have done something “unforgiveable” in leaving the “Truth-with a little bit of lies”. I have an aunt n uncle who left in the 80′s who still are hardly over it and I can only think it’s coz they never had the resource that the internet has given us these days to look for like minded ones and to read their experiences. The stories and experiences I’ve been able to share and read have helped me come to terms with leaving a faith that i believed in since pre 1975. So thank “God” for the internet and all the brave brothers and sisters who went about setting up such sites as this to help soothe the pain. What the GB don’t want the flock to know is that The Truth is out there.
Tamethyst
It is strange that anonymous believes that the WTS does not worship the ‘beast’. Because if the WTS as got prophecies and dates wrong. Then how can any member or ex member believe what else they say? Like their teachings, especially, on the ‘beast’?
It is very easy to conclude that if all else is wrong so are their teachings!
@ Ant Lloyd provides an interesting point by say “It’s almost as if the organization is trying to put itself in the same level as God.”.
As we need to remember that Revelation shows the beast declaring itself as a ‘god’ in opposition to the true God.
And, it is possible to fit the passages in Revelation about the beast
with regard to the WTS; With as much logic or lack of, as their teachings make.
With a special note how Babylon the Great is described at Rev 17:5.
Could also be considered, the GB as sexually committed immorality with the kings of the earth by denouncing them by ‘day’ but by ‘night’ sleeping with them as NGO’s. The beast could be the their international organisation as it too lived, then ‘died’ when Rutherford was imprisoned, then reappeared again in 1918 – Rev 17:8. And how much blood of loyals ones to Jesus can be found in the WTS by which she got drunk by? Who followed this possible Babylon the Great, every word. Believing they were serving Christ. Dying in concentration camps, refusing blood and being killed for preaching the prostitutes message to other lands as missionaries! LOL!
Frank i agree,
My mother who is 93 was a witness before i was born. She and the witnesses i grew up with believe that a judgment is coming, and it will start with the house of God.
They believe that judgement has not happened yet, this despite the honeymoon that has been declared after the inspection in 1919, which was recently corrected,..no anointed i know feel that they have been approved by Jehovah, they know they have been selected , yes but approved?,..that continues until they die.
This discrepancy was not really evident or so evident until now, to think that we believe that 3 men imprisoned equals Ezequiel’s valley of bones seems now ridiculous.
We have to make sure we apply the same rules evenly, if we tell people to search the bible for a teaching the hold, hold it up to the biblical light, the same apples to us as Witnesses Of Jah.
But it looks like they have realized this, and the honey moon is over. the evil slave is in with the good slave, and the wise virgins,…well….that has not happened either.
Babilon the great has Not fallen and we have NOT been liberated from it.
that is basically what it is.
The soc has always been interested in dates, dates for this, the beginning of that, the end of this, it is countless.
That impulse to set dates has got to stop, i personally don’t believe in any date that is not in the bible or can be linked to an event in the bible, other then that, dates are basically unimportant and we are thought not to go beyond what is written in the word.
Hi Peter. It is now an established fact, by the WTBTS’s own chronological workings that 1914 AD is a mythical date for what they claim.
What has surprised me, is that so much has been written about 587 BCE as being the date when Nebuchadnezzar came against Jerusalem. I have never felt this to be conclusive – even if the majority believe this to be so. It’s one of those, “they say…but we say…” arguments, and is capable of closing down discussion.
Simply taking the uncomplicated equation from anywhere in any WT publication and thinking about the ACTUAL stretch of time from THEIR date of 607 BCE reveals that the claim of it ending in 1914 AD is just false! Thus their claims are perpetually irreconcilable, period! This is absolute and cannot be refuted IF the claim is made that the Bible interprets its own prophecies internally. That’s it!
No 1914, no authority, unless a new back story can be invented to explain the same thing after 1878 AD.
Frank
►It seems that whenever men the society has attempted to date something, Jehovah always makes a fool of them.
The bible counsels us continually not to set dates, and not to go beyond what is written.
I still believe that Jehovah is using Jehovah’s witnesses, God has used them to shine light on the false teachings of the churches, The preaching work that Jehovah’s witnesses have accomplished all around the world has served to open the eyes of many to the biblical truths.
I am surely not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Anonymous
You are merely repeating what the Watchtower tells you. Here are some FACTS:
Jehovah’s Witnesses are NOT the only religion to use the name Jehovah. It was used in the American Standard Version (entire Hebrew Scriptures) long before the NW translation. The Name is also used in many Hymns and sermons in various churches. (“Save US, Oh Thou Great Jehovah” – is a beloved hymn of the Welsh nonconformists, sung on many a sunday). It is also used (as Yahweh) through-out the Hebrew scriptures in the Catholic New Jerusalem Bible. And in many other translations in languages other than English.
Under Rutherford’s direction, however, Jehovah’s Witnesses became universally detested as a “religion of hate”. I would venture that the Watchtower Society has therefore done more to stir up opposition to and dislike for the name Jehovah than anything else.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are not as politically neutral as they make out. Like many other aspects of their religion, it’s a facade they like to promote.
According to the Yearbook about events in Nazi Germany – the majority (two thirds) of witnesses compromised. The Society likes to focus great attention of the few who did not. The others are never mentioned, except (again), the few who fought for the Nazis, survived, and later re-associated themselves.
In fact, according to a report I got from a Circuit Overseer, who had just met with members of the Governing Body, their (the GB’s) feeling was that 50% of the witnesses would fall away or compromise if the situation arose. (This was circa 2005. Morale has deteriorated considerably since then)
A huge amount of “preaching” about the Kingdom has been done by other church groups. You just don’t know about it. And the Watchtower like you to stay in that state of ignorance.
Fair enough – we don’t expect perfection from imperfect people. HOWEVER – the scriptures clearly say that anyone who says “I HAVE NO SIN” – is a liar, and the truth is not in that one. (1 John 1:8). So – is the WT Society sinless? If not – why don’t they confess, and repent? Or – are they not under the same rules as the rest of the sheep?
I believe I speak for most of us here when I say that the problem is that the human leaders of the WT Society REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOINGS, and they keep on repeating them. It betrays lack of love – for God, Jesus, the sheep, and all other truth-seekers.
Let’s face it – if there was an individual in the Organization who dabbled in spiritism, kept on speculating about dates, kept on making predictions, kept on misinterpreting the scriptures – he would have been disfellowshipped long ago. But this is just some of the things the leaders of the Watchtower society have been doing these 120 plus years.
The real question is: how much longer can people like you go on blindly supporting these men – in defiance of what the Bible says?
Hi Frank I totally agree with you when you said the wachtower society refused to ACKNOWLEGE THEIR WROGDOINGS. This is so true! These men feel so powerful they think they can manipulate the entire humanity set of mind by their so called “preaching work.” Think God only a few about 7 millions fell for their message. If they really have Jehovah’s back up their miinistry would have been more fruitful. Despite their billions of hours of preaching every year the result is just a slap in their face proving that Jehovah is not on their side. I feel for the pioneers sisters and brothers especially for those who doing this service to find a soulmate . Good luck!! I can’t wait to see the end of WTS. I am sure it will come.
P.S with the “new light” / ‘New lie” the GB separate themselves from the rest of the anointed because the anointed group have outnumbered the great crowd. Since they can stop the anointed group from growing they simply separate themselves from them. What a genious Idea. I really believe that “new lie” came from Jah. LoL…… and the rank and file accept it with great JOY LOL…..
What you say is true, Peter. I believe as you do. But you have to factor in two things:
(1) The WTBTS to date has had quite a number of scandals revealed by the Internet. By God allowing the Internet is he testing his people’s loyalty to the organisation or is he exposing that this organisation in its present incarnation has its days numbered? Is the writing on the wall? (Biblical expression).
(2) The WTBTS has stated that the Catholic Church and its breakaway churches were used by Jehovah to distribute Bible and gather people into organisations. Will simply doing the preaching work worldwide in obedience to Matthew 24:14 be enough to assure its continuing existence in its present form? Will the WTBTS share the same fate as other organisations like political entities when they have served their purpose?
If we take the line that God uses his own organisation to ‘fool’ those within its ranks, in what way does he want ‘all to attain to salvation through repentance’?
Frank V
Many Jehovah’s witnesses are not dependent on the Watchtower and their faith has increased and the number baptized in those countries has increased.
Take the island of Cuba for example, very close to us, but the truth has been banned for years there, the watchtower was not allowed, did the witnesses vanish like the other religions did?
no they are well and strong.
Jehovah has used Jehovah’s Witnesses, through this group the Good news are being preached all around the World.
Jehovah’s witnesses have used the same bible people have to open up their eyes to the lies that satan has introduced in the religions of the world.
The WATCHTOWER as an org may vanish perhaps, but Jehovah’s Witnesses will not vanish.
Peter, I just hold my head in my hands when I see how brainwashed you are by Watchtower propaganda. You say things like: “Jehovah has used Jehovah’s Witnesses, through this group the Good news are being preached all around the World.”
The “good news” is most certainly NOT being preached “all around the world.” At least a third of the world’s inhabitants, mainly in communist and arab countries, have never even heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The organization wants you to believe that they are evenly spread across the planet, but there is a huge swathe of the Earth’s surface where Witnesses are virtually non-existent.
“I believe I speak for most of us here when I say that the problem is that the human leaders of the WT Society REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOINGS, and they keep on repeating them. It betrays lack of love – for God, Jesus, the sheep, and all other truth-seekers.”
I couldn’t agree more, Frank.
The Brothers have always said that they are not inspired they make mistakes, and all of jw’s know and accept that.
Jw and the WATCHTOWER have acknowledged that they have made mistakes they list them they announce them in the magazine, it’s not a secret.
But to expect them to apologize every time they make a mistake, is not practical. they would have to publish a third magazine for that
The mistake was not on purpose, people learn and change, look at science, are we going to just dismiss science because what we believed once is not the case now?
Peter: “Jw and the WATCHTOWER have acknowledged that they have made mistakes they list them they announce them in the magazine, it’s not a secret.”
If you’re are referring to the pathetic small collection of cannily-written propaganda in the January Watchtower – read it again with objective ‘glasses.’ How many times have they said this?
Being caught with one’s ‘pants down’ is not impressive. The ‘statement’ contains no apology and no genuine sense of regret. They KNOW that many sacrificed their homes and jobs for falsely-relayed information. Did they ever offer to refund these people? In commerce, if a company makes a false statement (or even misleading) they can be sued for large sums of money. It is only because the American First Amendment disallows government direct ‘interference’ with organised religion that, to date, the WTBTS has got away with this obsession to make these statements.
Peter: “But to expect them to apologize every time they make a mistake, is not practical. they would have to publish a third magazine for that
The mistake was not on purpose, people learn and change, look at science, are we going to just dismiss science because what we believed once is not the case now?”
It is interesting that you acknowledge that ‘a third magazine’ woudl be required to contain the WTBTS’s apologies. You have said it yourself. Show me ONE EXAMPLE of a genuine APOLOGY made by the WTBTS. Can you do that?
Just taking the chronological ‘mistakes’ (not one prophecy to date made by the WTBTS has EVER COME TRUE), the organisation has been lead by the nose by powerful, charismatic men to publish information that is significant only to their own expectations (Fred Franz for one). When ‘dissent’ (disagreement) has arisen, harsh punitive and vicious attempts have been made to quell this rebellion. Would Jesus have used such measures?
Peter you need to let go your feelings or attachment for the WTS to bible real thruths. Stop being blind by the watchtower propaganda. despite of what the wacthower said about the internet you must now realize that the internet is a real tool that help hundreds of people like you find the real truth by exposing watchtower false teachings. Now with 2014 right around the corner I would like to know what “new light ” or I should say “new lie” the watchtower will come up with to explain Jesus 100 years of invisible reign. Jesus accomplishments during that 100 years and how soon he will start to reign visibly for other people to see him in action. One thing I have to say under his invisible reign war, poverty, calamity, famine , disaster are stil affected people’s life. Now my question to you, would you continue to support WTS that lies constantly or will you stand for bible’s real thruths?
The truths that i have learned did not come from the evangelicals or the Catholics, i learned through Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Cant let go of a Good thing, to go WHERE?
TO DO what?
Stop going to the meetings, stop preaching, dissociate from my Bros?
“Peter January 19, 2013 at 9:43 am
The truths that i have learned did not come from the evangelicals or the Catholics, i learned through Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Cant let go of a Good thing, to go WHERE?
TO DO what?
Stop going to the meetings, stop preaching, dissociate from my Bros?”
Why are you here, Peter? You’re presence is noteworthy. As you know, there would be two elders on your door if anyone of your ‘brothers’ knew you were here.
My advice would be not do the things you fear. Merely step back and use the Internet to find the many documents available to confirm the obvious suspicions you have about the WTBTS. Take a deep breath or two and then make a decision based on ALL THE FACTS, not just what you read in the literature you’re provided.
Frank
When you were baptized, you had promised to serve Jehovah forever. You can not expect to live forever, if you stop serving Jehovah and Armageddon comes. do Jehovah’s will and you will live.
To love Jehovah is to keep His commandments. Notice Revelation 16:15, you must be an active Christian when Jesus comes.
Today we get help through Jehovah’s organization to be active, we have in the church groups that help us to preach, but we must get to where your group will meet. Maybe you can ask for help to get out?
You can preach by sending letters to relatives and friends, also to strangers. Yes there are many ways to preach.
But we must not forget the love, 1 Corinthians 13:1-7.
We see an increase in anointed, we must ask ourselves, when Jehovah can choose our brothers and sisters among us, it must mean that Jehovah’s Witnesses are still his people.
do not give up, remember that Satan wants you to give up. But we love Jehovah.
My awakening has happened very recently, I’m still finding a lot of things out. As Maria commented about 2014, what will be the “new lie”? Is Jesus bored now after having been sitting for 100 years on the throne doing nothing? Oh no, he is “king”. What does “kinging” in his case involve? And I also wonder about the anointed who are supposed to have been resurrected already, aren’t they bored too? Because, they aren’t kings, are they? Jesus’s ’1000 year-rule’ has not started. So what in heaven are they doing up there? Seriously.
Anonymous, are you a Bethel mole?
I find it interesting how, when JW’s start to notice that all is not as it seems in the WTS that their opinions fluctuate between loyalty to the WTS, and loyalty to fact and truth. Yes, the WTS did highlight hypocrisy in other church organisations. However, if you do the research, it’s very clear that throughout its history to the present, the WTS continually makes the same mistakes – often to a far more damaging degree – as they rarely admit to their mistakes or fix the problems inherent in their organisation. The WTS is the most hypocritical of them all. If you’re after “truth”, then research is your best ally.
If you do some research into the name “Jehovah” for example, you’ll quickly discover that it is not, and has never been, the name of God. It is a mistransliteration of the tetragrammaton, a mistake that has unfortunately stuck for centuries. Any organisation that gets God’s name completely wrong and uses it for their title cannot possibly be backed by God. Pretty embarrasing really.
Also, I don’t get all this stuff about a “good slave” and an “evil slave”. Seriously, I’ve come across loads of forums with JW’s and ex-JW’s dedicated to discussing this subject. All Charles Taze Russell did was take a vague parable out of context, and say he was the “faithful slave”. It would be like saying that someone was literally the “good samaritan” in Jesus’ most famous parable, which of course is impossible. There is simply no such thing as a “good slave and an “evil slave”, it’s like JW’s are going around and around in a circle. It’s tragic that the circular logic of the WTS is so good at confusing people.
On the subject of hierarchies, I’m not sure I agree that hierarchies are completely unbiblical. In the epistles (and in secondary 1st century sources), deacons, elders, bishops and overseers are all mentioned in the Bible. Although the early church may not have been a complete hierarchy, I’d say the building blocks for a hierarchy was being developed then, which came fully into fruition by the end of the second century. The church didn’t suddenly become a hierarchy, and it is clear to see how it was developed from the earliest days of Christianity. There seems to be a great assumption that there was a time when everything was perfect and all the concepts of Christianity were taught correctly. This is simply untrue, as they had to develop their religion according to the necessities of the time and understand what Jesus taught.
The only difference between today and the past is that back then Jesus was the head of the church and they followed him no matter what other people said, whereas in the centuries after, men have taken it upon themselves to take control and dictate to others, whether it is through a Pope or a GB.
Hi DB, I totally agree with everything you said, including about the hierarchy. For an organised message to get to all nations, there has to be some form of authoriity to do the organising. Same with any successful business. It does not just happen there has to be planning. So of course it was wrong of the society to slag other religions off, when they do exactly the same thing. To their credit they at least do not adopt fancy titles or wear special clothes. But all this is minor stuff when compared to the bigger picture of how the org has ruined so many peoples lives around the world.
The organization ruins the lives of people that let them ruin their lives……….
It hasn’t ruined mine and many other witnesses, i am very happy being one of Jehovah’s witnesses.
Everyone that became a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS new what they were getting into.
My decisions are based on what i think and believe, not on the thoughts or expectations of everybody else.
Don’t blame other people for what happened to you, that was your choice at the moment, you were not unconscious when you made those choices.
The majority of what JW believe is bible based and it’s true,
don’t trough the baby out with the bath water
in response to Peter….DO NOT attempt to tell me that Jehovah’s Witnesses new what they were getting into…how did I know what I was getting into at age 12…..we were always told not to read anything or talk to anyone with a differing opinion…no internet back in the 70′s..just the message of YOU CAN LIVE FOREVER! I was well indoctrinated and afraid to deviate for fear of armaggdon and the elders. Yes i grew up but you where still taught to not question or doubt for that would be questioning Jehovah.
you also say that the Majority of the JW teachings are right or from bible? Thats such a crazy statement on so many levels, can you share one teaching you are questioning?
Cause after only 4 months of researching JW I threw the bath water, baby, and soap out and then dissinfected the tub!
shannon
Peter: “It hasn’t ruined mine and many other witnesses, i am very happy being one of Jehovah’s witnesses.
Everyone that became a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS new what they were getting into…
Don’t blame other people for what happened to you, that was your choice at the moment, you were not unconscious when you made those choices.”
Your solipsism is showing, Peter. The fact that you seem self-centered here shows me that you NEED to hear the thousands of experiences of people who have left the organisation. Just type in ‘ex-JW’ to the search engine and begin your education.
No, it’s simply NOT TRUE that people know what they’re getting into when the get baptised. Did you know, for instance, that even having thoughts that are ‘contrary to the beliefs of JWs is a disfellowshipping offence?
Did you know that even innocently spending the night in the house with a known homosexual could get you disfellowshipped?
While you could get disfellowshipped for using a YMCA swimming pool, the WTBTS has been part of the UN family for 10 years. Did you know that, Peter?
I could go on, but you need to find this stuff out for yourself.
The fact is, you don’t ‘know’ anything until you’ve at least read accounts from an objective point-of-view. Start with the book Crisis of Conscience by ex-governing body member Ray Franz (nephew of the late ‘great’ Fred Franz.
Tell us what you think.
Frank
Peter, you say:
“It hasn’t ruined mine and many other witnesses, i am very happy being one of Jehovah’s witnesses.”
Good for you. Would you still be happy if your son or daughter was molested by a brother in your hall despite your elders knowing he was a pedophile?
“Everyone that became a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS new what they were getting into.”
When you say “everyone” please do not include me. I was brainwashed as a kid and baptized at a tender age, before I had even started high school.
“My decisions are based on what i think and believe, not on the thoughts or expectations of everybody else.”
Wrong. Your decisions are based on what the Governing Body tells you to think.
“Don’t blame other people for what happened to you, that was your choice at the moment, you were not unconscious when you made those choices.”
No, but I was a kid and far from old enough to know what I was getting into or to devote my entire life to the servitude of a human organization.
“The majority of what JW believe is bible based and it’s true,
don’t trough the baby out with the bath water”
Peter, do some research before making that sort of sweeping statement. Everything that JWs believe that makes them unique from other Christian denominations (i.e. 1914, 1919, faithful slave) is entirely false and unfounded. I hope one day you realise that, for your sake.
Cedars
I would not be happy if one of my children were molested by a brother or whom ever.
Yes i would include you, you think you were brainwashed good for you, now that you have realized that you can move on with yr life.
►You are WRONG,
I THINK FOR MYSELF.
if something doesn’t make sense it probably is not true.
I can go into some examples but i don’t really know if you would know what i was talking about.
►You said it, You devoted your life in the servitude of a HUMAN organization. You were serving MEN an org. the results of that are obvious. I serve JEHOVAH GOD THE ALMIGHTY GOD.
►What Jehovah’s Witnesses teach is the truth
the date thing is a mess, But the rest is the pure TRUTH.
►I don’t believe the slave can be found in religions and organizations that kill each other to defend a land.
I don’t believe that the slave of Christ
teaches hell
trinity
eternal soul
and all the other biblical truths we have come to know and appreciate so much.
As i said before THE DATES, i don’t what to hear about dates from the brothers. Jah has made a fool a men who to go beyond what is written in the scriptures
Thanks Peter, you’ve made it clear to me that you are one confused individual.
A child does what he is told, an adult makes it’s own decisions
i was never tough not to question and i have been a Jehovah’s witness all my life third generation, my very nature is to question, the whole organization is based on questioning and finding answers.
Most Jehovah’s witnesses use their own judgement,
For example
For years and years, the brothers said without any bible basis that in 1935 Jehovah stopped the heavenly calling
NO MORE INCORPORATIONS said on of the governing body members.
You would think then that the partaking of the emblems at the memorial would have stopped, surely no one would go against the GOVERNING BODY- but is that what happened?
Newly Anointed brothers and sisters kept partaking, the amount increased. the teaching changed and all is good.
So most Jehovah’s witnesses are level headed people that recognize that what they have learned is based on the BIBLE.
And Tolerate what is not written and what are opinions of the governing body.
Hi Peter, its true that the churches teach many unscriptual things, but i.m afraid JWs do as well. Have you any idea how many lives have been ruined because of their obsession with dates in the last 130 years. How many have died because of their no transplants, no vaccinations and no blood at all rules. All these things have changed now but thousands died and suffered because of their false teachings. Do you think it is right that a family member should be totally shunned by their former brothers, simply because they no longer can go along with what the gov body says is ‘present truth’. There is no scriptual case for shunning someone who simply cannot go along with some of the doctrines any more, and writes a letter saying that. Most of the things the society have changed in recent years were foretold would happen by ex witnesses. It was obvious to us that the generation teaching was totally wrong, that 1935 was, that increase in memorial partakers was wrong. We have also been saying for ages that the internet will slow the societies increase down to almost nothing. That too has happened. You need to check things out yourself. You simply cannot do that if you always use the societies literature.
I wish you well.
I doubt that at that time thousands have died like you say,
fist there were not that many witnesses at that time and second i don’t think that thousands of them had to have transplants and died.
No blood at all,then because of the science, now came into play the famous blood fractions.
Thousands of people die in general because science did not know at the time, but we don’t dismiss science because it changes we welcome the change as an improvement.
The present truth you say if you don’t agree yr shunned.
How do you voice yr disagreement?
if you are in a group and you start criticizing everything and you speak out disrupting others naturally you are going to be shunned.
You have the 1935 thing, many anointed witnesses partook because they listened to JEHOVAH and not the Gov Bod.
It’s all what you make it, the ones that left because they did not agree with that were not around to see the fix.
☺
Cedar,
The truth is that Jehovah’s witnesses have put together the biggest campaign to preach the good news of the kingdom of God throughout the world.
You seem to always focus on the negative,while Jehovah’s Witnesses have not reached every country in the world OFFICIALLY, unofficially the work is being done, it just cant be publicized for the safety of the brothers. but you must admit they have done a pretty good Job Right?
Jehovah’s Witnesses have never said that they are in every country, they have never said it , we do not believe that.
The WATCHTOWER does not want us to think that nor do we believe that.
Peter, all you’re doing is spouting Watchtower propaganda without taking the time to do some objective research. I can’t do your thinking for you, but I will lose patience if you continue to fill this page with your Watchtower indoctrination.
As to your strange “officially/unofficially” argument – surely you realise that the “30 other lands” in the worldwide report are the countries where the Society is “unofficially” active – and yet these still represent an abismally small percentage of the population of these countries. I have already identified in a previous article (below) that these 30 lands (33, actually) account for nearly a third of the world’s population (roughly 2 billion people) – and yet there are only, according to 2012 statistics, 28,000 JWs active in this part of the world – or 1 in 71,000 people. In short, if you live in an arab or communist country, it is virtually impossible that you will ever come into contact with a JW.
Here is the link…
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/under-the-microscope-the-watch-tower-societys-claims-to-divine-direction-part-3
Seriously though, this website is a haven from brainwashing, not a platform for you to provide more of it. If you need help, by all means seek it here. But if you hijack this page you will find yourself forced to take your message elsewhere.
Cedars
Peter I will address your stand. I was born into the JW world in the 70′s and never knew anything else. I was socialized among others that believed and thought the same way. I was persecuted in elementary school for not saluting a flag and holidays. Those were rough times as I was also punished on both ends. My parents would use a belt or a wooden paddle to enforce the JW standards on me. Today this is considered child abuse as this left bruises and welts along with stinging pains and emotional to psychological abuse. For those that experienced this life it was not by choice but by force. I was also confused with relationships outside the JW world too. Some of my friends families were split with some that got involved and others that did not. At school I could have friends but after those same friends were not allowed to associate with me as this was a risk. I was often forced to be with other JW kids which at times was acceptable but not always my choice. I was forced at times to go out door to door and this was routine not always enjoyable. I did have good friends within the Kingdom Hall and some crushes on the young women too. The culture forces you to choose a mate within and does often groom you to that direction. If your area is limited to choices then you must travel around or stay single. I enjoyed pioneering as I spent much of my time with a young woman I was prospecting to become my future wife. I had to stop the Pioneering work part way into the year because my father needed me to work to help out. If you pioneer you actually feel out a contract telling them that you will commit to 1000 hours of preaching work to headquarters. If you fail to maintain 90 hours a month you must have a good reason or be removed from the title. Wake up this is years of forced conditioning and incentives to continue or suffer negative backlashes. If you attain a title it assists in getting a better selection for a wife if you are doing so. I can go on about much more details but I will leave it alone for today. I never had a choice along with others born into it. I am 2nd generation JW.
Indoctrination or The truth?,
►When one thinks differently from you, you threaten to LOOSE PATIENCE WITH ME, how interesting.
☺IS THAT NOT THE SAME THING You ARE ACCUSING Jehovah’s witnesses of Doing……………
I am not going to blindly agree with you the WATCHTOWER or anybody else.
If you need to loose your patience with me that is your choice
i remain coll a a cucumber fruit of the spirit
amen!
1 Peter 3:15
Amplified Bible (AMP)
15 But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.
Peter, don’t play that game with me. I have given you far more time on this web page than the Society would EVER give me on theirs. This is about ignorance on your part. You can’t be bothered to bring yourself up to speed on basic information that everyone else on here is well aware of, and you talk down to us as though WE know nothing when in fact you are the one in the dark.
There is nothing hypocritical about me protecting visitors to this website from attacks by trolls who spam Watchtower indoctrination over multiple posts. If you are not a troll, then fine – you’ve made your point. Move on. However, your unwillingness to listen to anyone else’s point of view and apparent insistence on drilling home your version of reality is so far making you seem extremely troll-like.
Cedars
Yes, it is true that Jehovah’s Witnesses are primarily known as a preaching organisation, Peter, but when Jesus said, “By their fruits you will know (his disciples),” this would also apply to those inside the organisation too. Note that WT propaganda (neither have they made mention of their appalling management of certain issues – neutrality – UN, care for children – Candace Conti etc) has made almost no mention of the internal problems being faced by acolytes having to face the, at time, very poor leadership from the top rank to the bottom rank. Is God going to overlook what amounts to deliberate mismanagement of his people? Why is it that people only in the lowest ranks are punished for their ‘unfaithfulness’?
Cedars: “Thanks Peter, you’ve made it clear to me that you are one confused individual.”
What should not be forgotten, though, Cedars, is that Peter is here, putting his thoughts into print, and like Skyrainbow, Peter is either a masochist (wanting to be ‘persecuted)’, or wants their ‘strongly-entrenched beliefs to be intelligently overturned.
Stick around guys.
Frank
With Peter, I don’t think it was the latter. We kept “overturning” his assertions and he would just twist things, throw up smokescreens using flawed logic, or pull yet more assertions out of the hat. He’s a troll, and I’m not the only one who thinks so. I’m all for genuine JWs who want to engage in debate, but there was nothing genuine about Peter. This site is better off without his sort.
Thanks for replying Peter, I grant you transplant and vaccination rejection did not kill thousands, but certainly the insistance of no blood transfusions at all until recently has killed thousands. The big difference in what you say about others dying because medicine had not advanced that much is not a valid point, because medicine was well aware that blood transfusions could save lives and JWs decided to totally ignore what medicine was showing them.
I was trying to show you the difference between a person causing divisions in the congregation and the thousands that leave because they disagree with doctrine. These are not ones that try to get people to follow them from the congregation, they are ones who have had enough of all the false pronouncements etc and decide they no longer wish to be known as JWs. In other words they simply leave and get on with their lives. And yet if they send a letter to the society stating that they no longer wish to be known as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses they are shunned for the rest of their lives by former good friends and family. do you think that is scriptual? You will find it is not if you read the bible properly, without the organisation pushing its own agenda at you.
You need to realize that the society only change something when they have little choice. All the examples I gave you, gave them no choice. They had to think of something else to take the place of their false statements
I do give you respect for trying to defend your faith, but I’m afraid you are fighting a losing battle. May I suggest if Cedars does bar you from here, you join the ‘Topix forum’ about Jehovah’s Witnesses, where you will be able to say whatever you wish, although you will find it just as hard to defend the Watchtower because most times we quote the societies own words that condemn themselves. But you would be welcome there.
Peter- I don’t want to see you removed from this site. Please go over the posting on the F&DS on this site, it has 395 comments on it. Read through the comments and you will come across a person called ‘skyrainbow’. This series of comments is heading the same way I fear. Please don’t be like ‘skyrainbow’.
I am a 2nd generation JW, baptised in 1981, elder for nearly 13 years (but not anymore). I still believe in the basic, biblically provable teachings taught by the WT. But most who get baptised do not FULLY understand the ‘small print’. I know of 2 thirteen year old girls who got baptised recently. Can they really FULLY understand the consequences of making the most important decision of their lives? I have a 13 year old daughter and there is no way she is old enough to make such a major life changing decision.
At Anonymous/Peter
Have you forgotten one of the earliest lessons you were taught as a JW? “One bad apple spoils the whole barrel” or “a little leaven ferments the whole lump”. How many times over the years have I heard that argument against the RC church or any other false religion? What about the old “Would you drink this cup of water if I told you there was only a little bit of poison in it?” Remember the call “Get out of her my people. If you don’t want to share in her sins.” these days the society is teaching “commands of men as doctrines” and harsh judgement awaits. Personally I don’t think it can be changed now it’s beyond help, it’s like a big dirty puddle, there is only one way to get clean is to get out and help others out. Stop being an apologist for a corrupt organisation that some call the “Mother” an extremely distasteful term; next it’ll be called “Queen of earth”.
What’s this “We all knew what we were getting involved in?” I beg to differ, personally I was handed a copy of ‘Paradise lost to paradise regained’ sometime in the early 70′s and was scared of the terrifying images of buildings collapsing and burning images of armageddon, not a nice way to introduce people to Jehovah? What about “You will not grow old in this system of things” that was a lie. No-one can honestly defend the kind of antics the GB have been up to. The fact that for generations the society argued in court after court that all JW’s are Ministers is a case of “By your words you’ll be condemned because now there are JW Ministers who are paedophiles calling Door2door unknown by the public– that’s just not right. And don’t forget the generation who saw 1914 with eyes of understanding- Hilarious if it wasn’t such a LIE.
Tamethyst
Attacs?,…
More like REPLY,
But because the reply said that JW HAVE PREACHED, that is all it takes to throw me off the site, You see in any group people have to be on board.
Just like here, if you don’t follow Cedar’s moaning and groaning about The Brothers. you cant be on the site.
Peter, I have been far more patient with your “moaning and groaning” than the Society will ever be with mine. At least I have facts and solid information to support my views. Your opinions are based on nothing more than blind loyalty and indoctrination.
Cedars
I have moaned and groaned like you about the things that are wrong, but i support what is bible based teachings and the worship of God. the ones that are not bible based i don’t go for in my heart.
There are few things though, that are not in the bible.
For example all the dates.
I am now pointing out about something that i have been noticing lately regarding the anointed,..I have noticed that Only the Governing Body member are ANOINTED, every one else
“CLAIMS TO BE ANOINTED” why is that i wonder, whats that all about?
Let me ask you something if i may please, If you still believe in God What kind of worship of God are you doing now? Do you currently believe anything that yr parents thought you as JW’S.
Peter, as I said to begin with – I can’t do your research for you. You are making assumptions about my religious beliefs without having checked out my blog articles. If you’re really fascinated by my outlook, read this: http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/is-jwsurvey-org-an-apostate-website
Cedars
Thank you Cedars,
Apostasy to me is going against the teachings of Christ, Not the brothers.
I generally don’t follow anyone blindly or other wise , especially when it comes to a serious thing like the worship of God.
From my humble point of view, One follows when one is a child, an adult thinks and reasons about things.
Balance is the key,
The things that the brothers teach differ greatly from what other christian religions that use the bible as their base.
They all go to war
they all are part of the world
they don’t preach
they have God confused this two other people so how can they possibly worship God when they don’t even know who it is.
So i don’t agree that no group can claim to have the truth, as a mater of fact all christian churches claim to have the truth, that is why they are so divided.
As for me i will serve Jehovah God where i learned the truth about the bible.
If my child is abused, i will call the police and probably beat up the abuser.
I don’t consider everything said by the brothers as true, they even warn us to make sure that what we are being taught comes from the bible.
But i do think that the org has been used By JEHOVAH to shed light on the false bible teachings of the churches, the evil slave is in with the good slave at the WATCHTOWER since the temple has not been inspected, so maybe the things that are wrong is a result of that bad slave could it be?
I never believed the honey moon between the brothers and JEHOVAH, no anoints feels that way.
I’ll tell you one thing, i am not going to stop believing in Jehovah and his purpose for the world because of a bunch of men that are imperfect like me, they don’t have that much influence on me.
I’m going to share a bit of info i hope it is not used against me or bash me please, i am an anointed christian i have been for many many years, i got my anointing/calling when i was 15 years old, i got it here believing that God is not a trinity, that God will make the earth a paradise, that God has chosen a few to be part of the Government.
Remember that i was never taught that people go to heaven, all the focus was on paradise on earth, i used to warn my parents not to partake because i did not want to be left alone on earth w/out them.
So that was a big surprise to me, it has always been a very sacred thing and so far removed from our family us.
So that might help you understand where i am coming from i am not a fanatical closed ear Jehovah’s Witness, i would like to think that i am a pretty open minded person, kinda logical and to the point, i don’t defend anything blindly as a rule i tend to side with the accuser at first and tend to investigate what is being said.
Sincerely
Peter
Hi Peter, I think many ex witnesses agree with some of what the organisation teaches, just like they believe in some of what the churches teach. Trouble is there is just too much wrong in the org, and it has ruined too many lives for anyone to take it seriously.
There is so much info about the org available on the internet that is checkable, very few people now are joining the religion and then staying. In fact it is one of the most mobile religions in the world, so 65 percent that grow up in the religion apparently leave during their adulthood.
Peter, you said: “I don’t consider everything said by the brothers as true”
Congratulations – you have just identified yourself as an apostate according to the strict definition enforced by your local elders. Welcome to the club!
Cedars
*** pr section 7 p. 28 par. 20 God’s Purpose Soon to Be Realized ***
By whom? By millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are preaching in every country on earth.
*** dg part 11 p. 30 par. 10 The New World’s Foundation Now Being Formed ***
Millions of Witnesses call on people in every nation to talk to them about the new world.
Hi Ant, if you check your 2012 service report in the 2013 Yearbook, you will soon realize that although they are indeed in most countries on earth, they most certainly have not given the JW message to everyone on earth. Getting on for half the world’s population have never seen a witness. There are millions more that have no idea what JWs preach. You may say it is good enough just being in a country and it does not matter if only a few people have met the witnesses. That would mean that billions of people will be destroyed not even knowing what they have done wrong. If you think that is good and fair and just, well you really do need some therapy.
Yes Alan, that was why I pasted that in the comment. Some commenter said that the Watchtower never claimed to be in every country. Before Cedars wrote the article about preaching in all the earth I had no idea that the they had actually said they had! I agree that it can’t be fair and just that billions will die when they’ve never heard. I think it was Rutherford who came up with this ridiculous teaching.
The ratio to witnesses in the world is small. The world population is about 7.1 billion and if the JW group is 7,782,346 this is around 1 JW to about 1000 people. So does this mean that 1 person talks to 3 people a day each year. To do such a thing would mean going into remote places and having access to areas that are limited such as gated homes or communities. This idea that 239 out of 266 lands has members is at first glance amazing.
The African continent has 1.3 million while all the Americas from North to South are 3.8 million out of 1 billion or more just in the Americas. It worries me that 4 people out of 1000 just in the Americas are doomed to die if they do not convert to a JW. Just taking into account the Americas according to the 2013 Yearbook this would mean around 996 million to a billion people would die if Armageddon hit this year just on the Americas side. Is this something a loving God would do to all of us?
This would be the biggest genocide of all time. Looking at current info Africa is one billion population with 1.3 million JW members. This place would lose almost everyone too and we are looking at about 5 million JW survivors from 2 billion population which appears to be alot of death. Wait it gets more grim since we have 2.7 million left out of 5 more billion this seems like the worse nightmare hit our world. It is not realistic thinking to consider this as a belief or fact. No loving God would do such a cruel act to his creation. If I believed this today then I would be considered nuts by all those potential dead people and they would be right. Cedars is just rationalizing HARD FACTS and that is why I come here to vent and heal from my past. I have healed more on your forum than the last 15 years or so. Listen to me I left because I realized if I did stay I would be living a lie. The truth is we are all anointed ones which are chosen though divine selection but only some recognize they are and admit to it. The GB is misleading its members from believing that they are not anointed. I will focus next time on making a textbook argument but this is a forum not a lecture class.
Hi Alan,
I agree with your points too. Basically, I think that a hierarchy can work fine in principle, is necessary in a large-scale scenario, and many do actually work reasonably well, such as most mainstream Christian groups despite their issues/problems, which all organisations will have to some extent. Unfortunately, in any hierarchy, no one can know everything people in the organisation are doing, so individuals can abuse their position of authority to exploit others. When a scandal is exposed, most organisations will (often reluctantly) admit to the flaws in their system and do their best to fix it quickly.
However, the hierarchical system the WTS employs is fundamentally flawed, as they ignore any serious problems and employ unfair techniques, such as indoctrination and shunning practices, in order to maintain absolute control over the lives of their followers. Their hypocrisy is astounding. Despite the issues we can pick out in any organisation though, at least most other Christian groups do not demand absolute obedience to their leaders by threatening their followers’ basic human rights, and are usually willing to reform if there are problems. It’s a constant balancing act of maintaining long-held beliefs, while acknowledging the need for change and progress when necessary.
DB, this last paragraph is particularly significant. With the interview of Lance Armstrong by Oprah going out recently, it has been described as the telling of the story of blackmail and suing if any of the interviewee’s secrets had got out and other types of bullying. I see direct parallels with the subject under discussion here.
It is any person’s right under a democracy to fall in love with an organisation’s self-publicised cover-story, but no one should base their lives only on part-information. The WTBTS has oft-used the illustration of not wanting to drink a glass of clear-looking water that they know is poisoned. Armstrong was much vaunted and lionised for his charitable works. However, most, if not all, of it now has to be retracted. Why? Because the basic premise was false. Lie after lie was told to maintain the cover-story.
The Catholic Church will go the same way, eventually. If we are to accept that God is perfect in love and action, then we must also accept that his organisation, though not humanly perfect – MUST BE UNIMPEACHABLE. Have THE FACTS demonstrated this?
Frank V
the watchtower org is crisis, bcoz of many wrong descion of gov body.maybe many other jw that close to them give advice.but they not humbly accept the correction.they not imitate Moises.(w13 2/1 p.5) why they listen, they think they are superior in the org.they feel that they are the only group in org that not need correction.
but keep in mind that even in israel the kings that sit in Jehovah’s throne, exprience discipline and refroop. Jehovah send Samuel to king Saul, natahn send to king David, and other prophets send to many kings of israel to show their sins.
The gov Body always said “wait Jehovah” if there is something wrong. But who will use to correct the situation?. the gov body?.I dont think so. I’m sure Jehovah and Christ Jesus will use other servant to correct them and they must lsten.
I think it likely that the Governing Body believes that they only answer to God. If God tests his people and the GB are at the top with the highest responsibility then we should expect God to do the same in the highest eschalons. The human experience is that as time goes on and on, and nothing appears to happen as far as divine judgement is concerned, those in high places feel more and more secure. There’s even a sense of being untouchable if one believes one has God’s approval.
Isn’t ‘Pride comes before a fall’ a Biblical expression, after all?
I think it sensible and a human right for conscientious members to disassociate themselves emotionally, spiritually, and even physically, while a number of present religious policies are causing demonstrable harm to humans within its own ranks.
It’s funny that the GB likes to think of itself as Moses was to God, but they oddly (apart from some inadequate pseudo-acknowledgements such as in the January WT about wrong prophetic dates) fail to see that they also have the flaws that Moses had. Moses was made to see the errors of his ways (didn’t see the Promised Land), will the so-called untouchable GB (WT) be forced likewise?
Frank
Listen Mr Frank,
My brothers are always welcomed at my house, i am a pretty grown up boy and can take my own decisions.
The warning is just that, a heads up, not a prohibition.
The Brother who comes to my door and counsels me on something is looking out for me,.. There is a danger of going into the dark side, that is all.
The warning comes from a good place.
But as i said before,
The brothers have their mouth under their nose just like everybody else.
It’s not a dictatorship, i can take it or leave it
I can decide for myself if i am going to take the advice or not, even Jehovah God does not force us to do anything it is up to us otherwise it would be of no use
Mr. Peter,
Before you sound off about the WTBTS, you may wish to read and mediate on TTAT (“The truth about the truth”). If you dare, try theses sites for a start. This is the potential reality if you should decide for yourself what is right and wrong and refuse to have your mind readjusted by well-intention order-following elders.
This is an actual judicial case which has a full transcript on this site. If you wish confirmation at the mouth of two or more witnesses, there are others on this site too. Enjoy.
Get the FULL FACTS and then tell me I’m a fool.
http://thegoverningbody.org/religious-ethics-jehovahs-witnesses-disfellowshipping-committee-judicial/
http://thegoverningbody.org/the-martyring-of-matthew-barriea-study-in-religious-ethics-part-2/
http://thegoverningbody.org/the-martyring-of-matthew-barrie-a-study-in-religious-ethics-part-3/
Frank
Peter,
You say “I can decide for myself if i am going to take the advice or not, even Jehovah God does not force us to do anything.”
A telling comment as you say “Jehovah does not force us.” But the Governing Body does force people under threat of disfellowshipping! So it is a dictatorship, You must do what GB says, you must only read what they say, you must believe what they say and not make up your own mind. Who do they think they are? They like to think they’re like Moses? Moses was a mediator- they are not.
Tamethyst
I agree Tamethyst, your comment reminds me of this:
“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform.”
I am not quite sure how anyone would know what you read,what you believe and where you go, That could only be done if there was a yearly review after baptism going over everything to see if you agree or disagree, the majority of witnesses are occupied trying to just keep in the running like Paul said.
I make up my own mind because i am responsible for me, I don’t believe certain things that we as JW are taught, i think that most witnesses feel that way, and the ones that don’t have a problem.
I don’t go around criticizing and convincing other brothers to see things the way i do , but i also do not hide what i feel, i have spoken about it here at home to brothers that have come over and we have talked.
I gotta me me like Frank Sinatra said
You cant put that much trust and power in a group of human beings. ☻
Peter, I guess you don’t hurt enough for you to get the point and we hope you never do, but pain can be a learning-curve.
But I would ask you this: If all is fluffy ducks and butterflies, then why are you here if you didn’t at least entertain one doubt?
Try not to give undue praise to your object of lionisation, please just answer the question – focus! I would be grateful.
Frank
I have hurt plenty and for many years,
Things are not nice and fluffy and i never said that they were. as a matter of fact in spite of the honeymoon between God and the wt, i have always believed that The judgment starts with the house of God and it has not happened yet. finally they agree with me now just because JW have gotten some dates wrong i am not going to dismiss everything else.
☺
Peter, thanks for sharing. We’re getting to the hub of the wheel now.
Apart from falsely prophesying then, what exactly about the WTBTS’s views is it that brings you here?
Frank V
Frank, ‘
I feel the need to correct you again, let me let you in on something, J.W do not believe there are prophesies after the bible was written.
Those are the evangelicals, not the witnesses.
What brought me here to this site was the title, I was curious as to what other witnesses were saying about 1919.
Peter, how then do you read Matthew 24:36? Was it okay than to state, the day or the hour, then the year, or perhaps the ‘season’? Tell how you understand Acts 1:7.
If one reads God’s calendar and makes extraordinary claims, is this not a responsibility that requires extraordinary evidence?
Now you’ve read some of what ‘other Witnesses’ are saying about 1919, what is your conclusion?
Can you make 2520 lunar years come out to 1914 CE? Please leave your chronological workings.
Thanks
Frank V
Every time men try to date God they fail, the bible tells us not to go beyond what is written.
The bible cant be more plain in stating that Jesus will come at a time when no one expects.
They are correct about 1919 now.
1914 will be the next date to change.
No dates for this humble servant.
☻
You speak well, Peter, but if you suspect 1914 to be incorrect, why do assume 1919 IS correct?
Frank V
Because they just fixed it
How did they fix it, Peter? Are you saying this is a fabricated date also?
Frank
How did they fix it, Peter? Are you saying this is a fabricated date also?
—————————————————————–
I guess you are not up-to date on the latest, and i will say it again, Dates are not to be used unless they are in the bible.
They corrected the 1919 date in which Christ had supposedly come to inspect his earthly temple, they are saying now this is in the future during the great tribulation, so another date gone.
The difference between Moses and Gov Body is Moses is a man of humility.Even Moses leads Israel he accept suggestion. When his father-in-law give suggestion, Moses humbly applied it. But the Gov Body is different .They think that even they make big mistake in their policies, or prediction in the Bible, they did not ready to accept advice or suggestion even if the suggestion is biblical.It is becoz their mindset is the only channel is them.
Better still, Peter – it took me 10 minutes to find the connection between the two dates as taught by the WBTS. Here they are with references for you:
Revelation – Its Grand Climax, chap. 28 p. 192 par. 22 Contending With Two Ferocious Beasts ***
(Paragraph) “22 The 42 months mentioned here appear to be the same as the three and a half years during which the holy ones are harassed by a horn arising from one of the beasts in Daniel’s prophecy. (Daniel 7:23-25; see also Revelation 11:1-4.) Thus, from the end of 1914 on into 1918, while the warring nations were literally tearing at one another like wild beasts, citizens of those nations were pressured to worship the wild beast, to indulge in the religion of nationalism, even to be ready to die for their country. Such pressure led to intense suffering on the part of many of the anointed ones, who felt that their higher obedience belonged to Jehovah God and his Son, Christ Jesus. (Acts 5:29) Their trials came to a climax in June 1918, when they were ‘conquered.’ In the United States, prominent officers and other representatives of the Watch Tower Society were wrongly imprisoned, and the organized preaching by their Christian brothers was greatly hindered. Having authority “over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,” the wild beast clamped down on God’s work worldwide.”
Isaiah’s Prophecy 2, chap. 27 pp. 396-397 Jehovah Blesses Pure Worship ***
A Swift and Sudden Restoration
(Paragraph) “13 Isaiah prophesies: “There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.” (Isaiah 66:6) In the original fulfillment of these words, “the city” is Jerusalem, where Jehovah’s temple is located. The “sound of uproar” implies the tumult of war, which is heard in the city when the invading Babylonian armies assault it in 607 B.C.E. What, though, about the modern-day fulfillment?
14 These words in Isaiah harmonize with two other prophetic utterances, the one recorded at Ezekiel 43:4, 6-9 and the other at Malachi 3:1-5. Both Ezekiel and Malachi foretell a time when Jehovah God comes to his temple. Malachi’s prophecy shows that Jehovah comes to inspect his house of pure worship and to act as a Refiner, rejecting those who misrepresent him. Ezekiel’s vision depicts Jehovah as entering the temple and demanding that all traces of immorality and idolatry be removed. In the modern-day fulfillment of these prophecies, there was an important spiritual development in 1918 in connection with Jehovah’s worship. Jehovah and Jesus evidently made an inspection of all of those claiming to represent pure worship. That inspection led to the final casting off of corrupt Christendom. For Christ’s anointed followers, the inspection meant a brief period of refinement followed by a swift spiritual restoration in 1919.—1 Peter 4:17.”
Do you have an idea what I’m getting at, Peter? Can one date be separated from the other? Has there been any ‘new light’? Please update us.
Frank V
Peter,
You state “I don’t believe certain things that we as JW are taught, i think that most witnesses feel that way”. that’s what’s called Cognitive Dissonance, you are supporting a system you don’t deep down really believe in. It’s like all witnesses believe “God will understand that all my unbelieving relatives like husbands, wives, sons, daughters, brothers or sisters are nice people and Jehovah will save them, and he also understands my failings.” This is not taught by the Watchtower many times it has stated all will be destroyed (harsh and unforgiving, like the non-prodigal).
In regard to the discussion above on the “Billions” to be destroyed I remember an elder stating to me many a time that the buddhists, muslims etc in the whole of asia “They won’t change, they are all for the big stick.” What would make someone state such a repugnant teaching? “A rotten tree produces bad fruit.” The WT soc’ is harsh and unforgiving just like the non-prodigal son, and you know they are, that’s why are we all on here anonymously?
Tamethyst
I believe what JW teach about God is correct and believe that they are obeying Gods law by preaching the kingdom in many nations.
I support what the bible teaches and i do not support what someone says but with no bible base.
The Brothers teach that there will be a day of destruction they did not make that up
Don’t blame the messenger
The bible says that peoples flesh will rot as they are standing.
I support no trinity
no hell
no soul
no eternal torment
the preaching of the good news
the Bible based principles we all hold so dear.
☺
Hi Peter,
I’m curious, if the WTS is exclusively directed by God, how come they get dates wrong in the first place? Saying they’re imperfect people won’t wash with anyone these days, as it’s just an excuse to cover up the fact that they are NOT directed by God.
Basically, what you’re saying is that they have licence to make it up as they go along? So when yet another date is proved wrong, they’ll just change “The Truth” once again to fit these new dates. And when these new dates are proved wrong they’ll just change “The Truth” yet again to fit some more new dates, and when these new dates are wrong they’ll change “The Truth” to fit…
Where are these celebrations taking place?
I have never hear of one and i have never been to one.
There is no doubt God has directed the witnesses in the understanding they have today.
No other group of people have the believes that are based in the bible that the brothers have, i believed God opened up the understanding of not only the 1st president but of others that were asoc w/ them and believed in the same thing.
The true worship cant be found with people that do not know who he is and have no heart felt impulse to find out and please him.
If they were looking out for themselves they would leave things as they were but they don’t they take the risk and correct as they see.
The dates should have never been in the first place, the majority of what JW do and teach comes from the bible, the organizational stuff is just that. ☻
@ meek ones ~ “The difference between Moses and Gov Body is Moses is a man of humility” ~ Moses was in direct communication with and from Jehovah and was given a clear commission that would prove to be a key element in the outworking of Bible chronology. There was no doubt that he had God’s approval and what his instructions were or of his lineage and standing before Jehovah as opposed to others who simply assume and appoint themselves, applying titles over a crime, abuse and corruption rife organization with succession even if the dates don’t fit or are outrun an have to be “recalculated or readjusted in view of new light”…
DB, don’t forget that the centennial celebrations of Christ’s enthronement come only next year. I imagine this will be bigger even that 2012.
The true Biblical answer of 1878 CE passed with no recognisable Earthly events to mark it. If they really got their heads together, the GB will, I’m sure, create a new scenario for all its acolytes to be ‘readjusted’ to. This will not be a problem as they have over 8,000,000 eating out of their hands already.
Paul warned about first century Jews avoiding genealogies, Jesus warned against second-guessing his father as to his second arrival (man-made chronologies). Jesus’ first arrival was prophesied (if, of course, the book of Daniel is not a forgery, as some have accused), but the second was the obsession of Victorian gold-diggers, and thus we would expect the expectations be cobbled together from many sources.
well dates shouldnt even be talked about at all because nowhere in the bible does it say anything about knowing a date when Jesus is coming. The GB has always had it wrong and will always have it wrong. No one will know the time or date when Jesus will come back for His people. The GB has a earthly hope, when we should have a heavenly hope first, and then earthly. I say this because my wife is a JW and she tells me that she doesnt want to go to heaven…i struggle with that because we are spirits first, than souls…we should want to be with Christ when he returns for his people. Who wants to be on this earth when the tribulation and armageddon takes place??
Hi Frank,
I agree with you and everyone else. It’s a shame that they place so much emphasis on things that are out of our control, when they should focus on Christ’s teachings and only his teachings; how they can help people in this life, which they’ve sadly never done anyway.
Yes, I’m wondering what’s going to happen with the centennial celebrations next year, should be very interesting indeed. Though of course, Christ hasn’t been enthroned, seeing as he hasn’t actually returned… yet!
DB, actually I was joking about the centennial ‘celebrations.’ I don’t think one hundred years of chronological games and excuses is anything to celebrate.
What surprises me is that few seem to understand that any pretension of divine authority being handed to the GB in 1919 (‘getting the contract’) is just that – a pretension. The implications should be explored and decisions about people’s present life should be made based on this revelation and personal conclusions. Decades of stale adrenaline must surely takes its toll on a JWs life-span.
What actually happened is there was actually a philosophical seizure of power, a presumption, that has been accompanied by a plausible story. It’s time we got wise to it.
Frank V
I found this interesting article about the death-knell for religion in the Internet age. Here are a couple of paragraphs:
“A traditional religion, one built on “right belief,” requires a closed information system. That is why the Catholic Church put an official seal of approval on some ancient texts and banned or burned others. It is why some Bible-believing Christians are forbidden to marry nonbelievers. It is why Quiverfull moms home school their kids from carefully screened text books. It is why, when you get sucked into conversations with your fundamentalist uncle George from Florida, you sometimes wonder if he has some superpower that allows him to magically close down all avenues into his mind. (He does!)
Religions have spent eons honing defenses that keep outside information away from insiders. The innermost ring wall is a set of certainties and associated emotions like anxiety and disgust and righteous indignation that block curiosity. The outer wall is a set of behaviors aimed at insulating believers from contradictory evidence and from heretics who are potential transmitters of dangerous ideas. These behaviors range from memorizing sacred texts to wearing distinctive undergarments to killing infidels. Such defenses worked beautifully during humanity’s infancy. But they weren’t really designed for the current information age.”
Religion may not survive the Internet
by Valerie Tarico posted on January 17, 2013 05:08AM GMT
http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/1/16/-religion-may-not-survive-the-internet#.UQBt8R2eOSp
I really like your response to this anonymous person. Great job Alen! I wish you could give that speech in front of the7millions Jws to see how many of them would continue to follow WTBTS blindly. Thanks again for your comment.
Cedars is the bomb. I am doing so well in my healing process that I feel free of regrets. I recently left 2 low paying jobs to upgrade my life in a whole new career field. I went back to visit the old workplace one month later and saw old faces again. I felt like I never left because my friends were all there. They told me I look happier and younger since I moved on with my life. I was and feel wonderful for the life change. I was working for almost 9 years in the same job and I felt stuck with everyone else. New changes in products or advertisement each year but the same routine with others that came and went. I realized that as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I was experiencing a mirror like situation. The thing is I am no longer working at those jobs as well as a Witness anymore. I realized I was never going to move up and would stay at the same level for many more years. The new changes in the JW organization is nothing new for members and nonbelievers who watch with a close eye. I realized that to just leave is not enough to make you feel free and happy. I recognized we needed association with new friends and a place to express our views without punishment. I was in search for a new place to guide my heart and heal my deep pains. I went to dozens of churches and still felt lonely and empty because they did not understand me at all. But wait a website with current members and ex members that can share views without harsh judgment is what I found here. I discovered a home where I feel safe and free to express myself including my life experiences as a JW. I had such anger and pain I was working my way up in the political scheme of government so I could one day take down this group called WTBTS. This site encouraged me to be neutral and check my facts first. I realized that the fuse to this time bomb was getting shorter so I changed my path to support those that need a helping hand. Thanks Cedar for changing my agenda of revenge to one of love and support for those that are still lost and confused little sheep. I believe that your doing God’s work and I praise you for changing my life away from hate to one of love.
Magusknight..what a beautiful comment, I had to let you know that I really needed to hear something like that right now, I am still suffering from bitterness and wanting revenge, but what would that serve right. I know it will take to time heal and carry on and really find a fulfilling life but its people like you and Frank and Cedars that have helped me this far.
Sincerely
shannon
Hello Magnus. Thank you so much for your heartfelt expressions. I’m absolutely thrilled that I’ve been able to help you in some small way. Warm regards, Cedars
Yes Shannon we all heal differently and this is normal. I have realized I can still love all the brothers and sisters whom were my friends while standing firm against teachings and policies that are inaccurate or harmful to those innocent ones. Shannon I believe in you and your potential to recover at your own pace all the pain you feel inside. You are ready for change and are open to move forward in your healing process just like i did. Pain is a powerful emotion that informs you that your alive but not in harmony with your true state of being. Pain is a warning mechanism that something is dangerous and harmful to your well being. If things are wonderful and peaceful you would be in a relaxed state to not feel pain. Some get so numb they never feel the pain or warning signal and in many cases it is far to late to protect oneself. So Shannon your body is informing you of danger and this is 100% a normal human response. In some cases the pain is so intense you may experience shock which can last for awhile. Love is a great pain reliever and heals many deep wounds. If you want to be close to your Creator than you must know and understand LOVE for God is LOVE. This is one of a few scriptures that comforts me. Romans 14:8 reminds us whether we live for our God or die for our God we belong to our God. No human on this Earth has the right to claim power over any of us since we living or dying belong to our God. Food for Thought. I send my love to my new friend Shannon.
It’s very heart-warming to read your expressions, guys, and to be able to relate to them. I too am healing and it was just recently that I finally realized and admitted the truth to myself, that this is a mind controlling cult. Of course you feel anger and guilt at first, but then I was born in it, really believed it, and had no opportunity of knowing a different point of view. And the fear instilled in me of any dissent towards the Watchtower prevented me from opening my eyes sooner. But not anymore. Thanks to your insights through your comments, your support, Cedars’s great work, we have a voice. We are healing. I saw a joke the other day you guys may have seen before, “And you shall know the Internet, and the Internet shall set you free.” LOL
Cedars has given us a voice. Thank you Cedars, and everyone for the support and the great work.
Excellent article. For us (mankind) there is but one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus [the] Christ. (1 Cor 8:6).
Man has a Head over him: The Christ. (1 Cor 11:3)
Christ has a Head over him: God. (1 Cor 11:3)
It is simple:
God
Christ
Man
The problem today is that men and their organizations have inserted themselves in between Man and Christ; a holy place it does not belong. So it now looks like this:
God
Christ
The Organization
Man
“The Organization” has effectively made itself a Head over us as it claims that Christ has charged THEM with feeding the domestics. This arrangement makes the “way” by which man comes to Christ and then to the Father. Christ says that he is “The way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by “him.”
The imposing shadow cast by “The Organization” blots out the way to the Father and it prevents the light of the truth from the “living one” from reaching man.
This is easily corrected but it will take courage for many to do so. The solution: Remove The Organization from before you.
Attach yourself to the “person” of the Christ and become “his” disciple and let “him” teach you.
With ALL religious organization removed from before us, we can ask Jesus God and our God for his wisdom, understanding and knowledge (through our Master Jesus [the] Christ) and we will receive them as the Father promised He would give them “through” the same person we asked them: Christ Jesus.
Christ Jesus is the ONLY way by which we can receive anything from the Father in heaven. It does not come down from the Father through Christ to “an organization” to us. Because if it did, then Christ would not be “The Way.”
If the Master was listened to the mess the Watch Tower organization and all organizations claiming to be of Christ would not be in the mess they are in today.
The bottom line is that men do not know what they are doing and not equipped to lead and direct others. The day will come when Christ will prepare a Faithful and Discreet Slave who will be equipped to lead and direct under his authority.
That slave does not exist today. The Faithful and Discreet Slave are those persons of the First resurrection and who will serve as kings and priest (administrators) with Christ for the 1000 years.
Everything we see today in The Watch Tower Organization and ALL religious organizations and systems is a LIE; a deception; a counterfeit.
These are men (and women) who like the people in the Land of Shinar in Nimrods day are “making a celebrated name for THEMSELVES.”
Simply obey God and His Christ. (Luke 9:35; John 8:31-32 and Matthew 28:19-20)
Caution: Doing so will not make you popular in this world.
Peter you would be more correct if you said no other group as got so much wrong in the past. Every time they talk about something happening in the future they get it wrong. When that fails they move on to another explanation, and when that fails they think of something else. JWs are one of the most mobile religions on earth, meaning that two thirds of those that are brought up in the religion leave during their adulthood. Half the world has never heard of JWs so that is another lie they have told you. I think you will find it is more like Satan behind the organisation than God.
That is what i have been saying, every time they set a date God makes a fool out of them,.
People find it very hard to be one of JW because like i was told “YOU PEOPLE TAKE IT SERIOUS”.
It is not easy not being part of the world, no celebrating things that people all around you are celebrating, not to believe the same thing that everybody else who tell you they are christian believe
But cant you tell me what JW’S have gotten correct?
-see any of that?
The dates fail in comparison to all the other truths we hold dear.
☺
So in fact you are saying they are no different to other religions.
There are other religions that reject hellfire, trinity, and immortal soul. JWs are not the only ones that reject those things. The society regularly point there finger at other religions mistakes, yet there own history is full of errors. Also do you think that God would destroy 3 billion people who have never even heard the JW message? That would be pretty sick wouldn’t it. Would you kill your children if they did something that displeased you and they had no idea they were doing something wrong?
Peter said: “I am not going to blindly agree with you the WATCHTOWER or anybody else.”
But if you do not blindly agree with the WATCHTOWER, you risk alienation and expulsion. I, too, spent many years convinced that I was allowed to think and reason independently from the organization. But this is not really the case. Witnesses are encouraged to think for themselves but are warned that if thinking for themselves leads them to conclusions that do not agree with those of the organization, they are to accept the organization’s teaching and reject their own. To do otherwise is considered apostasy.
Thy are very different i think, even from other religions that accept one of these bible teachings.
Those groups might believe in one of these things but not all biblical principals, for example they go to war vote and all that.
Let me just point out that jw literature is full of those dates and the changes, what was thought one and the new thinking, that is why this news that was posted online as to the new understanding comes as a big surprise, it used to be that this was printed so all could benefit at the same time and explained, this time only the people there knew and moths later it was posted on;line and to this day there has been no explanation as to why the change. ☺
Peter, your January 25 comment doesn’t make sense. Are you claiming that because God ‘makes a fool of his own people,’ that it means it is God’s true organisation. You can understand my confusion. How is this so?
The Bible makes it clear the punishment for speaking prophecy (whether in the Bible or not) in the name of God and the claim fails to come true.
Yes, the WT has got many things right, but so did the Pharisees. What is the point you’re making? Oh, and don’t try the ‘we’re just imperfect men’ thing, please about the many and costly errors made. That one wore thin the first time it was said.
Frank
Peter, have you thought about the motive behind the “new light” about the exclusiveness of the Governing Body awarding themselves the highest of Earth’s power in the sight of God?
Many scandals have come to light on the Internet. Actual documents can be scanned and downloaded. There has been leak after leak, apparently even from Bethel headquarters (BOE letters etc).
This requires consolidation of power and control as to what information got out. ‘Too many cooks’ have caused the problems. The above article I cited and quoted should ring many bells as to the need for ‘solidarity’ in the face of the greatest information machine ever experienced by man (the Internet).
Keeping control of the reins is getting increasingly more difficult for fundamentalist religion.
Frank
God makes a fool out of men who try to out guess him, God corrects the ones he loves, just like a father corrects his children.
Punishment for speaking profecy in the name of Gos, But JW unlike the evangelicals, have never said that JEHOVAH told them the dates, There are many quotes online from WT past and i mean since the very beginning, with the brothers saying that they are not prophets and there are mistakes made.
Science makes plenty of mistakes that cost lives Do we dismiss science b because if it’s errors? No-
The Good slave is in with the bad, just think about that.
Science told the JWs that vaccinations were a good thing for humans. The society decided they were from Satan. Science told JWs that transplants were ok, they decided it was cannabolism. Science told JWs that blood transfusions saved lives, JWs decided it was satanic, and now they have finally accepted that many blood fractions are actually ok to have. Science told JWs that man would go into space, JWs decided that would never happen. Governments offered to let JWs do alternative service in the military, JWs decided that was against God.
Do I need to go on. There is plenty more I can give you
That is hardly new. we all thought that anyway.
they don’t have to declare themselves as authority to monitor what goes out of the WATCHTOWER, One thing has nothing to do w/ the other.
If they really wanted power they wld not say they made a mistake again.
You don’t fully understand the implications of this for JW’S
The witnesses Put what the bible teaches before science, science changes, it learns it grows, Just like everything that is alive.
What doesn’t change is probably dead,
there were many things that were thought to be and as time goes on they change due to new info.
The bible prohibits the use of BLOOD.
Science has come up with blood fractions, who wld have known.
So now it is left up to the person to decide what they are going to do.
Peter – you say “Science has come up with blood fractions, who wld have known.”
Science didn’t “come up” with blood fractions. They were there all along. That’s an astoundingly ignorant comment on your part.
Cedar,
Maybe you are right or maybe it is you who ignores that before discovery it is as good as non existent.
In this context (divine instructions on the use of a substance) the nature of the discovery was (or should have been) very much known by God when the instructions were given. The written instructions forbade drinking blood, not transfusing it. The organization leapt on the law as an excuse to help further distinguish Witnesses from other religions and shape the Witness brand. In so doing, they showed the same litigious and unmerciful spirit as the Pharisees, who thought that the law came first and human life second (i.e. healing on the sabbath).
☺Can you imagine if Jehovah God were to give them instructions on blood fractions?
The law was upheld by the apostles abstain from blood they commanded, Probably because if this very thing today abstain is more than just drink.
Peter, I don’t really understand your writing (i.e. “if this very thing today”). Of course God wouldn’t give information on blood fractions to an ancient people. He wrote according to the needs of the time. Nowadays blood can be used to perform life-saving medical treatments. The fact that Jews and early Christians weren’t allowed to drink it doesn’t mean that people should have to die over a technicality.
Sorry Cedar let me make it a bit clearer, ABSTAIN. this takes care of the argument that it was only for drinking-
Does it make sense to prohibit the drinking of blood but to allow the injection of blood?
You said that God had to know about fractions when he gave his command regarding blood, i am sure he knew i don’t get the argument.
Today thanks to science we have many no blood wings in hospitals.
Not only JW but many others do not want some body else s blood circulating in their body-
The command to abstain from blood is pretty clear to me.
☻
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)
28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled[a] and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
“ABSTAIN. this takes care of the argument that it was only for drinking”
No it doesn’t. To not drink blood was the only way you could “abstain” from it in Bible times. Things have changed completely since then, and the law clearly wasn’t written (and endorsed by the apostles) with those changes in mind. Please try to think for yourself for a change rather than through the narrow pharasaic Governing Body goggles.
Correct that is why i said earlier that it said abstain probably because of this very argument, Abstain is timeless.
I am to understand according to you that God commanded not to drink blood only, when you cant eat they feed you intravenously, so Transfusing is the same as eating.
You surely would not be abstaining from blood.
Peter,
The GB decided that blood transfusions were out, then science found a way to transfuse Plasma, Platelets, Red or White blood cells only. So the society put them on the banned list. Nowhere in the bible does it say ‘Abstain’ from platelets or plasma etc yet you would be disfellowshipped for taking these as a transfusion. Why is it that these four fractions are banned by JW GBody? It’s a ‘Command of Men’ being taught as doctrine.
Then science managed to refine the blood further down to 1/8ths , 1/64ths and these small fractions are OK?! Up to your conscience no less, is it a game of arithmetic with Jehovah he accepts small fractions but not big ones? All the fractions JW’s accept come from human donated blood. Do you give blood Peter? How are JW’s going to get these fractions unless they give blood, ever thought of donating your own “Autologous” fractions so you can accept them later? To me as I said above the whole Blood teaching is a command of men.
Tamethyst
Peter, please stop writing blatantly incorrect things on my website.
You now say: “Transfusing is the same as eating.”
Transfusing is most definitely NOT the same as eating. Blood performs an entirely different role in your circulatory system than food would, just as food is more useful to you in your stomach or gut than blood is. It is entirely erroneous to fall back on the Society’s misleading and shambolic “would an alcoholic transfuse alchol” line of reasoning.
Here is a link to a web page with information on this subject that is more reliable and rational than the publications you are used to reading… http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blood-transfusions.php
Go away and do some research, THEN come back and share your opinion when you know both sides of the argument. I can’t do your thinking for you, and I won’t have you trolling this page when you can’t be bothered to read up on the subject.
The bible is very clear on the issue of Blood, No i don’t give blood or accept it, The bible does not talk about fractions as you said that is why it is left up to the person to decide on that, just like everything else you are the ultimate authority on you.
The reason why the ban as you say was explained to us in detail.
As everything progresses and changes there are many challenges put to us.
Peter, I’m sorry but you’re an ignorant man. You wade in on an argument without being willing to explore both sides of the issue or research all the questions first. If you want to kill yourself or your children because of a biblical law that had nothing to do with medical treatment that would be developed centuries later, that’s your decision. However, I will not have you pressuring people on this site to accept your narrow-minded and ignorant views on blood.
Narrow-minded person, you want to sound a fool. First read w67 5/15 p. 319 Questions From Readers AND SEE HOW THE ORGANIZATION YOU RE DEFENDING ANSWERED the question I want to quote “How can it be said that Jesus could have produced perfect children from an imperfect wife? Would not the children, according to the laws of genetics, have inherited imperfection from their mother?—F. S., England.”
You are using the Bible!! From the Bible, the WTS has no more good reasons to hide its hypocrisy behind the Bible; things have changed. Read w67 10/15 p. 638 Questions From Readers. Se how they answered this question Do Jesus’ words at Luke 20:34-36 apply to the earthly resurrection or to the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000?—W. D., Aust” and THEN USING THE BIBLE, HELP THE WOCI TOWER SOCIETY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. They have completely failed to give an answer.
Let critical thinkers think and keep your narrow mind with your WTS; the blind leading the blind!!
Peter
Have you ever read the questions from readers on Blood as fertiliser? It appears from the WT answer that it is disrespectful to use blood, fish and bone as a fertiliser because the WT states it should be poured out on the ground. But it is OK nowadays to do all kinds of things to blood in the name of medicine because JW’s need fractions? And don’t forget these fractions come from human blood.
Tamethyst
Thamesyst
That was just their opinion.
Its not like the Catholic church you know, where the pope cant make a mistake.
I am talking in the context of introducing the fluid in the body not the function it performs.
I have done my research and i depend on you for the other side of the argument.
And yes i do have the right to do all that you mentioned.
Peter: “Punishment for speaking profecy in the name of Gos, But JW unlike the evangelicals, have never said that JEHOVAH told them the dates, There are many quotes online from WT past and i mean since the very beginning, with the brothers saying that they are not prophets and there are mistakes made.
Science makes plenty of mistakes that cost lives Do we dismiss science b because if it’s errors? No-”
Peter, you are wrong about not believing God gave them “the dates.” The only things we can say is that a political statement appeared in the WT in the ’90s claiming this. Is it not true that the WTBTS claimed that the Watchtower is God’s spokesman on Earth? This has been and still is that all adherents are obliged to accept its contents at any given time as being TRUTH from Jehovah himself. So if it said that 1925 or 1975 would herald great things prophetically, then all JWs would build their lives around the acclaimed fact that Jehovah himself had given this information to his ‘servants’! NO RESPONSIBILITY has EVER been taken for running ahead of God. If there is heavier judgement, it must be seen to be done.
Fred Franz even made the claim that Jehovah himself ‘edits the Watchtower’!
Your point about science is invalid too. Science doesn’t claim to be the salvation of man. Theists say it makes this claim, when in all truth it humbly admits it has only the desire to discover the truth through honest hard work. It makes no boastful claims, and if it does, it backs it up with material evidence. We don’t dismiss science because it has a humility not present in organised religion.
Frank
“And yes i do have the right to do all that you mentioned.”
You have the right to convince posters on this website to refuse medical treatment? I don’t think so.
“I am talking in the context of introducing the fluid in the body not the function it performs.”
But the function is crucial, and depends on HOW and WHERE the fluid is introduced to the body.
If you’re looking for a biblical precedent for accepting blood transfusions, there are actually two.
I’ve already mentioned Jesus’ arguments with the pharisees over whether healing (saving human life) was acceptable on the Sabbath. To accomplish the healing you had to break God’s law by doing work, but the ends justified the means. The pharisees (like the Governing Body) were so cruel and unmerciful that they thought the strict observance of the law was more important than human life.
Secondly there is the issue of Saul’s soldiers eating blood but NOT being punished for it because they were in a “desperate situation.” There is a Questions From Readers article (w95 4/15 p31) which actually says: “God may also have taken into account that Saul’s rash oath had pressed his men into that desperate situation.” If being about to lose your life if you don’t accept certain medical treatment isn’t a “desperate situation,” I don’t know what is.
Regardless of the above, I sense you’re not interested in truth or mercy but in following the commands of your Brooklyn leaders.
Cedar,
Thanks for the comments,
I say what i think ans suddenly i am convincing posters to refuse blood.
I give people more credit than that,
they are not fickle people
The watchtower said and they all did, i say and they all run to do what i say.
Man up!
You have to make decisions for yourself and stop crying and blaming others.
Your refusal to listen and just be civil leaves a lot to be desired.
You are just looking for an excuse to expel me from the site like you first did.
Peter, I can’t believe you can accuse me of not being civil and then tell me to “man up” and stop crying in the same email. Perhaps you should practice what you preach and start being more civil and respectful yourself. As I’ve repeatedly said, you should do your research before making arguments you know nothing about. That’s all I’ve been saying all along, but apparently you can’t be bothered to explore other people’s side of the argument before telling people what to think and believe on an emotive subject. That is what I call ignorance.
Peter,
Caught in your own cunning, that is the point we all are trying to make on here. The WT Soc’s opinions would not matter so much if people’s lives didn’t depend on them. Also their unkind and hateful attitude to those who wish to disagree with them over the blood issues shows they no nothing of christian attitudes.
Tamethyst
Peter,
How about I could extract all the minerals, particles and everything etc out of a pint of blood, it’d just be water left. Would you drink it?
T
Peter, atheists are on the move because of the arrogance of organised religion. 911 showed us what can happen when zealotry spirals out of control.
The only difference in the WTBTS is that its warfare is an internal strategy (Theocratic War Strategy). There have been many many costly ‘mistakes’ to adherents of this religion. Right now, children are in the spotlight. Looking back, are you really surprised that the child abuse thing would not affect “God’s Organisation”? What’s going on then? The congregation was meant to be a haven, not a hell.
Is God leading his people, or is the influence of human thinking far outweighing the ability of God to run his own organisation?
Obviously the WTBTS has no desire to count the cost to individuals in its care. It seems to see them as acceptable ‘collateral damage’ to be sacrificed for higher ideals.
Do you think human sacrifice is acceptable, Peter?
Frank
As to the blood issue, I see this as a simple equation. Either we allow blood transfusion to be a Christian’s conscience decision, or we strictly adhere to what the Bible says about blood: it uses the word ABSTAIN! ‘Abstain’ is a absolute term. If one takes fractions, one is not abstaining. That is all there is to it. But, of course, no GB member could have travelled unless they accepted inoculations with blood fractions in them. That’s, I believe, how the fractions policy came about.
Can anyone show me in the Bible where any prohibition made on blood unambiguously refers to human blood? Leviticus 17 is about animal blood, so why should Acts 15 be any different.
Peter?
Frank
The book of acts says abstain from blood not only animal blood.
Leviticus 17:10 says any kind of blood
It is never good to be unkind and or hateful because a person disagrees with you.
I disagree on many things and i am as vocal with the brothers as i am here, i try to be fair.
It seems to me that certain people just loose themselves in a group in this case JW’S.
I have never thought that all i was told was the truth, personal opinions and alike are just that.
I learned very early that The GB was wrong about certain things, like the 1935 deal, and most people that this subject pertained to thought the same, the is wrong and will get it right and they did eventually.
Reasoning: the date is not in the bible
they cant possible know what God thinks other than what is written in the scriptures.
I know what i feel, so what did most people do, they partook of the emblems despite the GB
people should be able to recognize an opinion from a Bible teaching
☺
Hello all.
If you remove the ASSUMPTION that the information in the bible is true or accurate, your analysis becomes much more straight forward and simple.
Peter: “The book of acts says abstain from blood not only animal blood.
Leviticus 17:10 says any kind of blood”
You here state the fundamentalist view. Two things occur:
(1) There are no laws directly prohibiting cannibalism. How then can we discern that the writer of Leviticus had human blood in mind or not.
(2) You have snookered yourself because if anyone eats ANY SORT OF BLOOD they would be in a disapproved position before the Creator, why would this not include fractions?
Have you ever swallowed blood after a tooth extraction, Peter? How long do you go into depression after such an ungodly act?
Within the context of the passage, the subject is animal killing. Where is the evidence it is anything other than this?
Frank
Frank,
Leviticus says to abstain from ANY kind of blood, ANY KIND.
and No i am not referring to you as unkind, and yes i agree with you that fractions to me is Blood therefore i do not accept any fragments.
When you swallow blood after a tooth extraction it does not equal a blood transfusion, the blood never leaves yr body, etc.
Animal killings, or any sort of Blood?
I agree with you Frank, that the GB has stumbled many in presuming things and basically speaking for God sometimes.
I remember NO More incorporation, said one brother regarding the anointed, so yes they have made many mistakes and it will get worse until the bad wheat is separated from the good.
If you are referring to me as being “unkind” etc, then the next thing is you’ll tell me I’m persecuting you (you won’t be the first). The fact is, logic will nearly always outfox emotion. We are living in a time when ancient thinking must also be examined under the microscope. If the arguments fail, accept that, Peter. The Dying Duck routine fails to impress. If you have an argument, make it.
The GB are guilty of mistakes, but also very costly presumptions (far more than can be accounted to as genuine mistakes). Getting heated over human “revelations” has stumbled many a brother and sister, ruined futures, lost fortunes and taken present hopes away.
What about Sparlock? How many a child’s childhood will now suffer because, if they reject the Harry Potter movies, they will have to throw out their Mary Poppins and Star wars movies too! The Sparlock Generation will likely not know how to make healthy decisions about important matters that effect their futures because they will need to check with a higher authority to know how to make a move. Guilt will hold them back.
This is but one modern example that will have a costly future for some. It is avoidable.
Frank
Hi AssumeNothing – Intriguing name. I can’t even get a straight answer for why the god of the Old Testament ordered the serial killing of innocent children from Christian apologists, I think we can safely assume you are right in your conclusion. Sad. I’m sure I’m not the only agnostic who comes here to find a glimmer of hope.
Of course, as the conscience begins to prick the faithful, the old chestnut of being persecuted for one’s faith inevitably rises. Tedious
Frank
It is exciting to see all this activity. I do not personally care either way on this matter about blood. The bible is referring to animal sacrifice to idols which implies to other gods not to the monotheistic god in the bible. Well next it refers to blood but it does not mention do not drink the blood of men does it? It is after the sacrifice of animals which was not uncommon to have people drinking animal blood too. This was considered disgraceful because the blood of a lamb was given to the gods or earthly people drank of it. Blood was considered sacred because it was the life force of animals and humans. When a sacrifice to the one and only god was done this was acceptable according to the law. Blood was used in bible times and still today as a source of nutrition in some parts of the world. Blood is just iron and proteins with or without oxygen attached. It can carry toxins or healing properties to various areas of the body. It is our bodies waterways and carries toxins to the areas of the body that get rid of them and moves other macro and micro particles to other areas of the body. We are made of about 3/4 of water which we ingest daily or gather from food to supply the lube the body needs. Since diseases use these waterways or bloodstreams to move about it would make sense they would consider abstaining from it. The bible lists many ways in order to protect oneself from disease and blood is one of those on the list.
In Bible times or Roman times viruses and bacteria were not known by what we consider them today. In those times they were considered demons or unclean spirits that possessed people. What they really thought that? Yes they did. They believed that those that drank the blood of an animal could catch these demons (diseases). It was not a common practice to drink another persons blood so listing it was not needed or implied in the biblical texts. The argument for Jehovah’s Witnesses is solely based on those laws for abstaining from drinking animal blood. It is clearly another misidentified biblical statement in which the bible is clearly saying one thing and an organization is stating another. I do agree that blood should be cleaned before another receives it but for those science buffs we all know human blood is clearly different from animal blood.
Cedars is right about one thing when he tells you posters to research. I laugh when I think about the reasons I did things as a JW today. The scholars of today refers to biblical texts as full of magical thinking philosophies. I you followed the bibles laws to the letter today you would likely be imprisoned on acts of animal cruelty to murder. I personally see it as a confused time in history where superstition was common and today it is folklore and myths. Never believe my words DO YOUR RESEARCH.
Peter: “When you swallow blood after a tooth extraction it does not equal a blood transfusion, the blood never leaves yr body, etc.”
So you have no objection to sucking the blood from a cut on your finger then, Peter?
Secondly, does it not bother you that the WTBTS teaches that blood fractions are acceptable despite the Bible stating that true abstinence is necessary? By extension, with all the known problems, avoidable stumblings, the victims of child abuse, and even the occasional claimed suicide (forced social shunning of disfellowshipped ones) – do you not believe that there is a conflict of interest with a religion’s claim to hold to the preciousness of blood and then to express themselves indifferently about evidently causing bloodguilt?
You are right. Intimidation reaches even this degree as you can read it yourself in their OWN publications. Let me quote w08 10/15 p. 23 par. 10 under a subtitle “Do You Take the Lead in Showing Honor?”.
DB, the paragraph reads “Some have reasoned that since Jesus told his disciples “all you are brothers,” there should be no positions of authority in the Christian congregation. (Matt. 23:8) However, both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures have numerous examples of men who exercised authority given to them by God. The history of the patriarchs, judges, and kings among the ancient Hebrews provides ample evidence that Jehovah gives direction through human representatives. When the people did not properly honor the appointed individuals, they were disciplined by Jehovah.—2 Ki. 1:2-17; 2:19, 23, 24.”.
It is sad to observe how the WTBS uses the bible as a useful tool of intimidation. The verses they have provided include 2 Kings (2 Kings 2:23-24) . . .And he proceeded to go up from there to Beth′el. As he was going up on the way, there were small boys that came out from the city and began to jeer him and that kept saying to him: “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” Finally he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah. Then two she-bears came out from the woods and went tearing to pieces forty-two children of their number”.
CAN YOU GRASP THE DEGREE OF THEIR INTIMIDATION!!!
Hi Frank,
Thanks for the welcoming post. In truth I’m an agnostic atheist, but people seem to think that means atheist “lite”.I once had a Jehovah’s Witness on an anonymous forum tell me I was confused and should call the kingdom hall and arrange a study. When I told her that I was raised as a witness and would never consider associating with them on an intimate level again, that was the last I ever heard from her.
Anyway I’d like to elaborate on my thesis a bit just to get people thinking critically, and if there are witnesses here bold enough to read it, then I hope they take it seriously.
In it’s very foundation, religion is a mistaken negation of the scientific method. If we could summarize the scientific method into one sentence, it would look something like this: “Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?” If we could summarize religion (at least the Abrahamic ones) into one sentence, it would look like this: “Here are the conclusions. What facts can we find to support them?” It’s completely backwards. The difference is subtle, but significant. The first approach is used to establish knowledge of what was previously unknown, the second assumes knowledge, and is instead looking for means to prove it to others. And to the untrained ear, an individual who is an advocate of the religious method and who speaks eloquently, can sound just as convincing as someone who uses the scientific method.
For example: Conclusion – “The end is close”. How can we justify this conclusion? Well first thing we need to do is convince our audience that the information in the bible is true and accurate. If reasoning fails, we should appeal to their emotions, and sound as though we are convinced ourselves(This is one of the objectives of the Theocratic Ministry School). Once you’ve established someones faith in the bible, now all you have to do is select scriptures about the “last days” such as Matthew 24 and 2 Timothy 3. What these scriptures describe has in reality occurred since the inception of civilization, but that same eloquent individual who speaks with authority merely has to say “yes, but never has it occurred all at the same time” without providing any evidence, and arbitrarily pick news articles from current events to convince someone that Armaggedon is right around the corner, and they don’t have time stop and question these authoritative figures because if they did it could cost them their lives.
The entire doctrine is designed to STOP people from thinking. “Fully rely on God”. “Don’t lean on your own understanding”. “Jehovah and Jesus trust the faithful and discreet slave. Shouldn’t you?” “Time is short, brother’s and sisters”. “The end is close”. “There is only ONE channel of communication” “Should we waste time pursuing higher education? Would our time not be better spent in the ministry?” (Guess what people learn how to do when pursuing higher education? Think critically. Coincidence?) Etc, etc.
I’ve had Witnesses ask me “So what do you think this world is coming to then?” As if the notion that there is some grand scheme of things in the universe should be taken for granted, and if it’s not what they believe, then it must be some alternative. I recall discussing evolution with one, and when he failed to get his point across, he attempted to shift the discussion to the failings of other religious systems. These occurrences is evidence of their close-mindedness, their narrow objective of using the discussion to convert you, or failing that, reinforce their ideas in their own minds, and their tendencies to try to control the direction of the discussion.
And all these social constructs, behavioral patterns, and marketing ploys are based on the assumption that the bible is true.
Peace.
hakisimana
See the science books from the same year and read what is said in them, it does not apply today, people learn and grow.
Don’t treat change as a bad thing it’s a good thing, progress.
1967 yeah right 40 years ago…
The witnesses follow what the bible says, if you ask them a question like the one you referred to, they are going to say what they think, and from 1967 to know a lot of water has passed under the bridge.
I see that you are assuming that the bible is false and fake.
I believe it is the Word Of Jehovah God.
Thanks for the comment
♥
Sorry guys, I’ve banned Peter. I can only put up with trolls for so long. We tried to help him, but he has no interest in objectively exploring the opinions of others, so I won’t let him graffiti this site with his indoctrinated crap.
Totally agree with you Cedars. He had so much information giving to him from all of us and he just brushed it off as non consequential. Why can’t JWs just address comments made to them. Instead they just think ‘Oh he’s an apostate, I wont debate with him.’ His comment about, as a JW he knows more about the org than we do made me laugh. Most JWs have no idea whatsoever about information ex JWs have found out since they left the org.
Hi AssumeNothing. What an interesting chap you are.
Paragraph 1: Finally someone who understands the modern use of the word ‘atheist.’ By combining agnostic and atheist you obviously mean you don’t know but lean towards being atheist (“atheist” meaning that there is no good reason, judged from evidence in the material universe, that we need to believe in the existence of God). Romans 1:20 is a statement with no evidence etc.
I’m a theistic agnostic with hopes that someone can rescue God from the defamatory statements made in the Bible that are inconsistent with the claims he makes about himself (Biblically). So far, no one’s been able to pull this sword out of the stone.
Paragraph 3: Religion presumes its own humility; science demonstrates it by its own method of discovery. What you say reminds me of two methods of Biblical deduction: Exegesis: the study of a holy book to discover the will of the writer, and: Eisegesis: Going on a cherry-picking expedition to support human ideas of what they hope or desire God to say (End Time prophecies, divine appointments etc). The WTBTS have, I believe, submitted to the former in all their genuinely Bible-based teachings, and resorted to the latter when forming religious policies that have been costly to those naive enough not to have questioned them.
Paragraph 4: The conveyance of religious propaganda is not ‘convincing argument’ but carefully chosen words and venues where this viewpoint can be regularly dispensed.
Paragraph 5: When the term, “Bible-trained conscience” is repeated over and over, it becomes, “A conscience trained in religious doctrine; what we say you should think.” Advertising uses the same methodology.
I don’t think we’re miles apart, you and I. Agnosticism is open-mindedness, not “namby pamby fence-sitting” as Richard Dawkins puts it. This is just about the only thing I disagree with him on.
Frank
Peter: “See the science books from the same year and read what is said in them, it does not apply today, people learn and grow.
Don’t treat change as a bad thing it’s a good thing, progress.
1967 yeah right 40 years ago…
The witnesses follow what the bible says, if you ask them a question like the one you referred to, they are going to say what they think, and from 1967 to know a lot of water has passed under the bridge.”
See, AssumeNothing…this is what I’m talking about. Naive Peter, tries to compare scientific discovery with the religious fumbling attempts to pre-empt the will of God. For 9 years Christ’s admonition that no-one knew the day nor the hour of the End (or year ["times or seasons"]) was ignored in favour of human desire. The fact is, the Biblical ‘evidence’ was there and it was ignored, causing stumbling blocks and financial loss for thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses who chose not to question this. It’s happening now under the issue of child abuse.
Yes, science progresses, but it doesn’t make salvation-claims or even that it is divinely appointed. It just does what it does by an honest method of discovery.
The further back you go in WTBTS publications the more it becomes clear they did believe all information came directly from on high. This over-confidence (human pride) has become embarrassment. I’d take the scientific method over eisegesis any day.
Frank
PS. Yes Peter, but for the grace of God go I. It wasn’t just water that passed under the bridge; hopes and dreams did to. Modern Witnesses haven’t had to contend with that BS, but many did.
Where’s the GENUINE acknowledgement, let alone an apology for presumption? Old science gets placed in books to view the journey to discovery. The WTBTS makes every attempt to keep ‘old theology’ from modern ears along with the scandals.
Great article.
Hey, I don’t know if it’s mentioned already, but this whole process smacks of the one in Animal Farm.
Julia, all organisations end up like Animal Farm, whatever the pretensions. It is human, particularly male.
And Jesus must be very angry about this one, or at least sad.
Good job Cedars. I envy your patience. I don’t know how you find the time!
The one thing the witnesses have that they believe is exclusive to the Jehovah’s Witnesses is the preaching of the Good News to the most distant parts of the Earth, but, YHWH has most gratiously provided us with the internet. Now a person can get an excellent Bible education on their own, and free, that rivals any Bible college.
The preaching is being done too in cyberspace. The Witnesses are becoming obsolete. It is true that the personal attention they provide for their Bible study students is superior to the unfeeling internet, but is their love real? I don’t think so. It can not be real when they use an ambiguous bible verse against their family and friends that probably is solely for the heavenly ones and warning against the antichrist, not petty offenses. It’s a nightmare.
God bless you Cedars
We are told this person’s blood will be asked back from us if we don’t study with them. That’s the truth.
Nancy, I’m glad to see humanity is waking up to the difference between genuine Bible study and the desire to twist Scripture to suit a personal agenda. If you’re interested, the technical words are exegesis and eisegesis.
It is a pity that the WTBTS had such noble beginnings, but the greater the power (see the latest “new light”) and longer it is possessed, the more self-absorbed the wielders get. Religion is by its nature solipsistic. In short, they suffer the Narcissus syndrome.
Frank
Thank you. I like fancy words too!
The difference I see between The JWs and the Catholics who the witnesses censure is numbers. The Catholics have one pope….bad. The Jehovah’s Witnesses had twelve governing body members…good?. The Catholics counts anyone who they can find that calls them self Catholic as Catholics. The Jehovah’s Witnesses will only count those who are in good standing (many times too subjective for good taste) as Witnesses. Overly confident I think. Thanks Frank. God bless you. Keep up the good work!
I’ve been a JW for 14 years and I’ve seen so much good among them truly, because there are good and sincere people in every organisation. I think it’s fair to the Witnesses to acknowledge that the majority that I know of are serving from pure motives, even though they might be misled as to what constitutes salvation.
Many witnesses I know love what the WTS has done for their lives by showing them stuff from the Bible, for instance the sister who was told all her life by the Catholic church she is going to hell now knows that’s not the case. This is one example. Perhaps they are going to ‘gehenna’ though I don’t believe it; I believe the ones misleading them are the real culprits who will be called to account.
Jesus said the ones who do his Father’s will are his true followers, and you can find people who truly live that among the Witnesses as well as in other denominations. Time will truly tell. So for now, I think we should all love everybody, have kind discussions on our similarities and differences, and remember that opinions are like fingerprints: everybody has them.
To be honest, Nancy, it is getting harder to see the difference between the two organisations you cite. The child abuse issue has brought this uncanny similarity to light. What’s the difference between moving abusive priests from one diocese to another and constructing a system where abusive congregation members can move from one congregation to another almost without notice. It’s all the same to the victims.
Priests give absolution of sin, elders absolve ‘sinful’ members by judging their ‘repentance.’ Much difference?
All Catholics look to the human head of their church for truth…need I go on?
Frank
Hi Julia,
That’s a great approach to take. Once we realise that people are the same no matter whether they belong to a certain religion or not, then we feel much closer to all people. Although I can never agree with what JW’s believe, and despite finding out the countless shocking things about the WTS, I have a much greater respect for JW’s as people.
However, although the WTS seems to have taught many people stuff from the Bible, it’s clear from honest and meticulous research that a large portion of what they “teach” is completely incorrect. The fact that they have to resort to indoctrination techniques and flawed logic to “prove” their points show this. Sadly, when JW’s discover this, they gradually realise that they have to start all over again when it comes to learning about the Bible.
For example, regarding “Gehenna” and “Hades/Hell”; Jesus mentions them both a number of times, and also the “eternal fire” where the devil and sinners are said to go forever
(Matt 25:41-42). That line is even in the NWT version, so I guess the WTS must have missed that one! I agree with you, it’s horrible when people are told they are “going to hell”, but unfortunately this concept is in the Bible, we can’t change that. I don’t believe the concept myself though, so I guess I don’t believe the Bible itself.
I agree with you though, I’d like to think that, if Jesus is correct about his “other sheep” metaphor, true believers can be found in all religions – or non-religious people for that matter – because if you follow God’s commandments (love enemies, love neighbours etc etc), then you are a follower of Christ, whether you know it or not.
Peter,
Perhaps the one pertinent comment you have made is “God makes a fool out of men who try to out guess him.”
Considering the Watchtower Society has a 133 year history of “out guessing God” (13 decades of failed WT interpretation of prophecy, never mind all the other ‘human thinking’ dressed up to appear ‘theocratic’) you could be so right that what is happening now (the humiliating court cases in America and Australia, the global exposure in the media spotlight) is timely and just retribution from God for taking His Name in vain.
And perhaps it is the Watchtower that refuses to be corrected?
Despite everything, it still persists in repeating the same spurious claims to be ‘the only Organization approved by God’.
The proof of their origins is in their own words.
Faithful & Discreet Slave points to 1 Corinthians 4:1&2 about stewards holding ‘understanding’ of sacred secrets!Cross referencing to Matthew 13:11. Saying “It is granted to you to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of heavens, BUT to those people it was not granted”!
Then goes on to say “whoever has , more will be given him and abound more. Whoever does not have, even what he does have
will be taken from him”.
Therefore, this is solid proof that the WT does NOT have what was
“granted” or they would be abounding more and more in the
‘Truths’ of sacred secrets. Rather, than apologizing for making
mistakes out of human error and presumption!
And more and more, we can see the WT losing what it had of
credibility in its teachings, reputation and so called concern for
it’s young sheep that get continually neglected at the hands of
wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Hence, clear proof, that this organisation does not have God’s approval!
Hi DB
In regard to your statement “That line is even in the NWT version, so I guess the WTS must have missed that one! I agree with you, it’s horrible when people are told they are “going to hell”, but unfortunately this concept is in the Bible, we can’t change that. I don’t believe the concept myself though, so I guess I don’t believe the Bible itself.” -What does all that nonsense mean?
One thing at least that the Bible students/JW’s did get right is that there is no HELL coz when you’re dead, you’re dead.
Tamethyst
I agree with you Tamethyst. I believe what the Bible says about eternal fire means eternal destructions, just as Sheol/Hades/Hell is just being dead or non-existent as having died. There is a scripture even that Jesus was left in Sheol/Hades/Hell for those three days, and I hardly think he was condemned to Satan’s realm of fire and brimstone!
Excellent article. I definitely agree. I wish we have a secular school for the great crowd. The anointed ones will go to heaven. The true religion before was gone after the apostle John died. The problem in our organization is there are many apostates and impostors actively participating in the kingdom ministry. If the time will come when all the anointed will pass away, those elders and other witnesses that pretend as active witnesses of Jehovah will exercise their kingship inside the organization and bully those they hate. They are doing it right now. I personally had a talk with a son of a former elder and c.o. and d.o., he told me from his heart that he no longer believe that there is a true religion. He just regularly attend meetings and the minister service because that’s how he was brought up. I don’t know when all these things will end. I feel this a torture for the innocent JWs. I have felt the same way as Paul in Rome did.
@ Melca! Glad someone says this! Especially about children of witnesses who are just along for the ride to please parents.
In my former congregation, many decent brothers were passed over for leading positions; While elder sons got ‘cherry picked’.
One elder I was working with at the time got a call from his son.
He told me his son was delusional and wanted to leave the organisation as he didnt believe. His father convinced him to stay.
The son most likely is still serving as a ministerial servant under
duress to please his father.
Another elders son who is a ministerial servant at that time was overheard to be jealous of another ministerial servant getting better
privileges. Reminds me of the priest showing favouritism to his two
sons who got thought above their station.
Hi Tamethyst and Julia,
Wow Tamethyst, thanks for being so… blunt! I’ve read what I wrote, and yes, it isn’t very clear what I meant. I’m usually pretty careful what I write here, as it’s so easy to misunderstand what others write, so I’ll do my best to explain what I was trying to say.
Firstly, like both of you, I do NOT believe there is a REAL hell or lake of fire and brimstone. I think that when a person dies, they stay dead, but I still try to keep an open mind, because no matter what anyone says happens, if we’re honest, none of us can know for sure. Therefore, in terms of my personal belief, I think the WTS is likely correct in terms of what happens to us when we die, but it is correct for the wrong reasons. In terms of my research with the Bible, I’m sure “Sheol/Hades/Hell” and the “Lake of Fire” are places and concepts clearly taught in the Bible.
Of course, you both might have done more research than me, in which case you’ll know more than I do, so I’ll explain as briefly as I can why I’ve come to that conclusion in another message, and if you (or anyone else) can please correct me where I’ve gone wrong, I’d be very grateful.
Regards.
Hi Julia and Tamethyst,
If you or anyone else can show me if I’ve missed anything in my research or can correct me, then please let me know, as I’m only interested in getting the facts.
Firstly, according to my research, “Sheol/Hades/Hell” and “Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Brimstone” are two completely different concepts. They became mixed together in the Western world thanks to the King James Bible’s translation of both “Sheol/Hades” and “Gehenna” into English as “Hell”, thus combining the two concepts and confusing the issue. In early Jewish tradition “Sheol” is the abode of the dead or underworld, a place where all people went to when they died (Ezekiel 26:19-21) and (Job 26:5) – regarding these passages, how can the dead be “afraid” or “tremble” if they are conscious of nothing, or be beneath the earth if it’s oblivion? Also in (Isaiah 14:9) how could “Sheol” be “astir to greet the arrival” of the King of Babylon when he dies? Therefore Julia, according to the Bible, when Jesus went to “Sheol/Hades/Hell” he didn’t go to “Gehenna/lake of fire and brimstone” but instead to the underworld/Sheol, hence his “descent”. Some suggest that he preached the “Gospel” to the dead in “Sheol/Hades/Hell”. Jewish belief is so diverse that there is no definitive answer to what “Sheol” exactly was, but it clearly wasn’t oblivion/non-consciousness.
With regard to “Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Brimstone”, if this concept is essentially oblivion in the Bible, why is it referred as an actual place called the “eternal lake of fire”? In (Matt 25:41-42) Jesus says that this “eternal fire” is “prepared” for the devil and his angels, and all unrepentant sinners too. Why does oblivion/non-consciousness need to be “prepared”? In the Bible “Gehenna” is considered a place of “eternal fire”, not oblivion: eg. (Mark 9:43-45) and (Rev 14:11) and (Rev 20:7-15). In contrast, according to Peter, “Hades/Hell” is a different place where sinners/the devil will wait until judgement and possibly eternal punishment in the “lake of fire” (2 Peter 2:4). Punishment or reward surely follows judgement, rather than simply non-existence? Also, if “Sheol/Hades/Hell is oblivion/non-existence, how can itself be thrown into the “burning lake” (Rev 20:14-15)?
In terms of secondary sources, the 1st and 2nd century Apostolic Fathers wrote about the “unquenchable lake of fire”. For example, in the “Martyrdom of Polycarp”, Polycarp states to his executers that they are: “unaware of the flames of future judgement and everlasting torment which are in store for the ungodly”. Another Apostolic Father, Ignatius, writes in his epistle to the Ephesians regarding unbelievers: “Such a wretch in his uncleanness is bound for the unquenchable fire” and he also mentions the “netherworld”. There are other examples, but I’d say the early Christians took these concepts very literally, not figuratively.
According to this evidence – a small fraction of what I’ve found – I’d say there is very strong reason to show that the concepts of “Sheol/Hades/Hell” and “Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Brimstone” are supported in the Bible. I also have to conclude – for now at least – that the Bible cannot be used to support our belief that nothing happens when we die, therefore our belief is contrary to the Biblical viewpoint. I hope this fully explains my “nonsense” and that you can appreciate why many people come to these conclusions. There are no right or wrong answers, but I find this evidence very convincing indeed.
Research is a constant learning process, so if I’ve missed anything, please tell me, as I’m always willing to correct my views based on analysis and evidence. Thanks.
Hello Melco, I put a comment on here under yours!
But somehow it went off to be be moderated but dont know why,
nothing was offensive or no bad language.
But point is I knew a elders son also who was a ministerial servant
who rang his father while with me. His father said he wanted to leave the WT.org didnt believe in God. His Father encouraged him to stay. Another son of an elder while waiting to go on the ministry, wife came in. The daughter of another elder. She started saying her husband was getting angry at home because he thought he was getting less privileges than another MS. Who apparently was the first brother I mention who wanted to leave.
This is so much like Eli the priest and his favouritism towards his two sons. Who we know died for over stepping their duties as non
levites. My point is many decent brothers were shunned as not spiritual enough for theocratic privileges; While their sons were chosen as MS or elders. Yet all the time they were lacking such themselves. Hence spirituallity was not the key to become an MS or elder but being related to someone high up from rank & file.
I promise with all honesty who read this, those experiences are true.
Tamethyst;
you say you dont believe in Hell than what is the Lord God talking about in Revelations 20:13 when he says “The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one accordingto his works.” what about in Luke 16:23 ” And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” Those that dont accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and Repent of their sins and walk that path and reject Him will suffer the punishment of everlasting torment, their will be gnashing of teeth…Its in the NWT
Hey there, that’s some food for thought! I certainly don’t know the answers. I always thought Sheol/Hades/Hell was just the state of being dead, ie the first death, and Gehenna/lake of fire was the second death, that is after judgement. I’ve been taught as a JW that ‘death and Hades’ being thrown into this lake of fire meant that death itself would be no more, therefore the ‘common grave of mankind’ as the WTS puts it, would be done away with.
But now I’m starting to the see that what I’ve been taught as a JW through “God’s spirit-directed organisation”, the WTS, is not necessarily backed up by the scriptures. This is why I must do more research. Before I became a JW I was an atheist, and I used to pay out on people who told me I was going to Hell. I got put off “Christianity” by these dogmatic people who stated in unequivocal terms that every person who ever died, all those people living in little hill tribes who never even get the opportunity to learn about Jesus; groups of people, who through no fault of their own, were going to burn forever in Hell. That really put me off, and the JW message of a fair go for all those who died appealed to me.
Perhaps there is some sort of netherworld where the spirits of the departed are awaiting Jesus’ call to judgement, I don’t know. I must do more research on this. Thanks for giving me some sources to look up though.
Cheers
Julia
Well I am no bible scholar but in my reviewing those that understand the time and words of bible times it all seems so clear. Hades is thought of as a place where all dead reside. In myth it is the underground world or in those days a dirt pit or grave. Gehenna was a real location where the trash was thrown out and those dead bodies of criminals or undeserving ones were found to rot. It was on fire to cut down on the smell and reduce the buildup of disease. It was like our modern day dump sites for our garbage on the outskirts of town. So those that were to wander outside of the city in this area of Gehenna were in this misery like state or place in which they dwell. It appears that these places were used as an analogy of some sort to explain a story. The referral that before or after judgment those not worthy of a silent death will rest in Gehenna or misery. Sheol, Hades or HELL is this dark place in which the dead reside. These accounts refer to literal and symbolic locations which can be interpreted many ways. My conclusion is that we all go to HELL when we die (grave or dirt pit) and for those that were considered not worthy of a proper burial were tossed in a fire pit or in this story Gehenna (local dumping grounds for all garbage including bodies of the dead). I see nothing terrifying about all this as when we die we are today buried or cremated. In those times superstition was still around so being buried the proper way would send your spirit or soul to rest but if not it would be tormented in misery to roam the fiery pits of Gehenna. I do not see all this deep mystery solving puzzles that confuse its readers so in this case JW’s seem to have this absolutely right. Nope it sounds like if Hell gives up their dead could be grave diggers stealing belongings as this happened in Bible times. The keys of Hades also might be describing a cemetery which was locked and secured to protect graves like many of the cemeteries today. It is all so logical when one identifies the words and meaning according to the context of the times it was written. I am just sharing my views after reviewing the various angles and my conclusion is mine alone. Thanks everyone.
This may seem totally whack, but I actually have died. I have been clinically dead, and I was revived. I still have PTSD from it actually, all these years later. Death wasn’t actually that scary, but the trauma comes from the terror of knowing you’re going to die, the fear of not living, and the pain associated with the dying. I remember that all too clearly, and am even uncomfortable typing this right now.
I remember ‘the light’; it looked like a star, an arc welding electrode as seen through a heavy welding helmet, and it was about two feet away from me. Others who’ve had similar experiences recall a light. Something’s going on, but I don’t think it is to fear as Hamlet did ‘the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns’. The pain and missing out on life is the horrifying bit.
Thanks for taking the time to read my comments and respond!
Hi Magusknight,
I agree with your comments, you seem to be looking at this from a very modern perspective, which also reflects my personal views. I think for a lot of their beliefs regarding an afterlife they were clearly influenced by the world around them and needed to make sense of these things; places, events, practices and traditions. I didn’t know Gehenna was based upon a real place, so thanks for that, I’ll read up on it. As for the JW’s yes, on this subject, I think they have it right – up to a point – in terms of reality and modern life, but because they look at the Bible from a more rational perspective, I feel that they misunderstand a number of key things in the process.
The JW’s supposedly base their beliefs on the Bible, but they discount a number of key concepts that are clearly identified with Christianity. Concepts regarding going to heaven or an underworld or lake of fire etc cannot be rationally explained, yet since Christ, Christians have believed these things are real, so faith and belief must go beyond the rational, material world. It seems that the WTS has removed a lot of the spirituality and mysticism in their version simply because they couldnt rationalise it, but this surely is an integral part to believing in and understanding the Bible. Despite the fact that believing in a real underworld doesn’t seem particularly logical in today’s world, in my opinion these beliefs are still integral if someone wants to believe the Bible. According to the experts, they say that although “Sheol” can be considered as “the pit” and “the common grave”, they all seem to agree that the concept of “Sheol” is more than that, as the Bible describes it an as an actual place, where people can still have some kind of existence there. To get the full picture I feel it’s maybe best to combine both interpretations to fully understand what people believed about “Sheol” back then, and how they understand it today.
However, I also find it interesting that Jewish people themselves have no definitive answer, which I think is a much fairer approach, and doesn’t exclude others just because they have a different opinion. In the NT, I noticed that the Sadducees believed there was no resurrection, whereas the Pharisees believed there was a resurrection, but they still belonged to the same religion and accepted each other despite this. Seems they appreciated there were no right or wrong answers even then, shame others can’t do the same. It’s a fascinating subject, the Bible is so full of depth and possibilites it really is mindblowing.
Thanks for responding, much appreciated!
Hi Julia,
I agree that “Death” being thrown into the lake of fire means that there will be no more death, but there is a clear distinction between “Death” and “Hades”, so I guess that’s where the difference lies. I know what you mean about people saying “you’re going to hell”, it’s very off-putting, though when I used to go to church, I was pretty lucky, as no one was like that. Obviously it depends what kind of group you find, but they’re not all like that I can assure you.
I also agree with you about people never hearing about the Christian message, it is extremely unfair and illogical to think that they’ll suffer through no fault of their own. However, the WTS also believes that when/if God comes, he will exterminate everyone on the planet who doesn’t belong to the Watchtower Society. That would be a massive scale holocaust for saying the JW’s God is supposed to be “loving”. Seems to me that they are just as hypocritical as the people who say others are going to hell for not believing exactly what they believe, and not joining their group.
The problem with the JW message is that it ironically has little basis in the Bible, and is often contrary to what it teaches. The JW version of “the Gospel” is very different from mainstream Christianity, that’s why they use fear and scare tactics to make sure their followers don’t read other religious material not written by the WTS, because they know it can be proved wrong. The WTS message is very attractive, but there are plenty of disturbing aspects to it, and it doesn’t really resemble the “Good News” in the Bible. As they believe everyone is given a second chance, I’ve noticed that they don’t seem too bothered about what happens in this life, or about helping people other than themselves. Because they think God is going to miraculously fix everything soon, they don’t see the point in trying to fix the world’s problems, whereas most Christians believe that they will be judged based on what they do in this life, so they engage actively in charity work and in helping make the world a better place in preparation for Christ’s arrival. The JW message is very negative and pessimistic in comparison, they say the world is a terrible place, but they don’t believe in trying to make it better.
I hope you can recover from your near-death experience. I believe there is “something” out there, I don’t what it is, but like you, I’ll keep looking! Thanks for sharing your views, the more perspectives we examine, the more we can understand the bigger picture.
Yeah I’m not sure what it is either any more. The WTS are presumptuous in trying to explain the unexplainable. They accuse other churches of failing to give satisfying answers when they say things like “It’s meant to be a mystery,” and things like these. Granted, they are guilty of telling people that their deceased baby is now an angel in heaven because ‘God wanted another angel in heaven’.
I believe worshipping in Spirit as stated by Jesus to the Samaritan woman at the well has been stripped from the WT congregation through over-rationalising. I suppose it is only human to want to know as much as we can, and we have intelligence to try and fill the gaps out of our own reasoning, but overstepping God’s word seems to be the result for the Churches and denominations. But so many Christians I’ve met in the ministry or wherever have said, “I don’t see any JW having the Spirit. There’s a void there.” and they’re not talking about things like faith healing and speaking in tongues, but a three-dimensional being rather than a four-dimensional being, where I use the ‘fourth’ dimension to denote Spirit.
I too see the lack of spirit, that mystical connection to the divine that cannot be explained by words. I feel the Spirit came upon me recently, and I feel I have such an improved understanding of the Bible.
I’m still trying to throw off half my lifetime’s WT conditioning though, and it’s not easy.
Cedars, I wonder after looking at the illustration that Jesus is the forefront angel to the right of the earth, above the congregation?
After all, they do consider that Jesus, is the Archangel, Michael!
Or; May be they are finally admitting that Jehovah and Jesus
are the same person? Like most other christendom religions do. But are just wondering how they are going to break that news to publishers without a mass exodus from their slavery of servitude.
Cedars, I wonder after looking at the illustration that Jesus is the forefront angel to the right of the earth, above the congregation?
After all, they do consider that Jesus, is the Archangel, Michael!
Or; May be they are finally admitting that Jehovah and Jesus
are the same person? Like most other christendom religions do. But are just wondering how they are going to break that news to publishers without a mass exodus from their slavery of servitude.
That angel at the side looks like the depiction of the “angel in mid heaven” and the one behind him is no different. They usually show Jesus with a crown.
I don’t understand why most other Christendom religions say they are one; Jesus constantly talks about his Father as a separate person, and prays to Him and says things like, “The Father is greater than I am.” I’ve never understood how they arrived at the trinity conclusion, except John 1:1, but that is only one possible scripture out of a heap of them.
Because the trinity is ancient mystic babylonian bullcrap! 3×1=3, the other book we are to study is creation:A father is ALWAYS older than the son. If they are the same person, thenn the bible is full of meaningless confusing what is called DOUBLE THINK. After all the KJV calls him the 1st BORN of every CREATURE . Alahym ( Elohim/God) is not a creature. The real names of the Father and Son are NOT Jehovah and Jesus, but in ancient paleo hebrew is Yahuwah and Yahusha . I will never accept they are the same because YAH is beyond space and time , and the Son became human and died and was raised by His Father back to life. Yahuwah can not die. Yahusha is Yah in the flesh as a chip off the old block,a copy,an exact representation but he was clearly Born, God is not Born ,but is eternal to the past as into the future and beyond space and time. 1 Cor. 15:27,28 is clear that they are seperate because it is with exception of the one who subjected all things under His Sons feet. I can see why many people are turning away and becoming atheists ! Religion is a cancer for sure ,but the word stands on its own. I never believed in the trinity even before I became a JW and never will because it is retarded . It is irrational and rediculous, no matter how much you disagree with the jesuit watchtower . Just saying . Shalom
Julia, Hebrew 1:8 shows clearly that Jesus is NOT an angel of any kind. But I do agree that the Father and Jesus are seperate persons.
But there is nothing in the scriptures saying Jesus not a God, like the Father. But plenty showing the Father saying “This is my son..”! Hence, that Jesus in heaven is like his Father who is a God.
Christ is the Word that God spoke…Jesus is that Word manifested in Flesh to die for us, to give us a way back to God. God cant leave his throne so he had to send the Word to redeem us…or those who would believe…Of course Jesus spoke of His Father, because Jesus was Flesh not spirit so in that aspect Jesus and God are two different but when he was raised from the dead he was Christ…trinity doesnt exist in the bible, but diety does, God the Father, God’s Word which is Christ, and God’s Holy Spirit which is His power that works thru the believer’s faith
Strong Island, that totally makes sense! The WORD was the ‘first-born” of creation, and all things came to exist through the WORD. Oh wow, I’m learning so much from coming here, and also reading the Bible independently of the WTS. Keep informing me.
Thanks Strongisland, you explain it so clearly. The “Word” comes from God’s mouth, it’s how he created the universe, by commanding/speaking it into existence according to the first chapter of Genesis eg. “Let there be light”. Basically, the “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” is a very ingenious metaphor using the technique of personification. Jesus taught by using metaphors. In this context, a lot of things that Jesus says makes sense, particularly in the “Gospel of John”, which is all about the “Incarnation”.
Also Julia, like many JW’s you say that the Father and Son are not one, but have you ever read through the “Gospel of John”, if so you must have read Jesus’ statement: “I and the Father are one” (John: 10:30)? In the epistle “1 John”, notice how John doesn’t even mention Jesus, but instead talks about seeing/hearing/touching the manifestation of the “Word”. They are supposed to be spiritually one, as God’s “Word” is the equal and perfect reflection of God himself, of his mind and will. If you read through John again, it’ll make a lot more sense, but remember that if you’re reading the NWT version, they have changed a number of passages in an attempt to alter the original meaning.
I’d say that Jesus is both fully man and fully God as one; he was “Son of Man” sharing man’s nature, but also “Son of God” sharing God’s nature too, so he has a dual nature, acting as a bridge/mediator between humans and God. This explains why partaking is so important, as you need to have the “Word” inside you, that way you have both the Father and the Son and they can make their “home with you” (John 14:23). Partaking is all about obtaining eternal life. That way, the Christian can become “One with the Father”. This would also explain the whole chapter of (John:14), particularly where Jesus says “I am in the Father, and the Father is in me” as the “Word” is inside the Father, but also reflects the Father perfectly when he speaks. How can God’s “Word”, which is his reflection, be greater than God himself? Jesus prays to the Father, because the Father is showing us how to pray through his “Word”. This explains why God the Father is greater than his “Son” the “Word”. Did the early Christians worship Jesus? I’m not sure, but they certainly prayed to him, as Jesus states: ‘Ask for anything in my name, and I will do it” (John:14:14).
Glad things are becoming a lot clearer for you now!
Praise God; that your eyes are being opened Julia…As u continue to read His Word, continue to ask for the Holy Spirit to give u the understanding, remember without the Holy Spirit, you cant understand the Word. Its the Holy Spirit that interprets for you…as you seek His Face in the Word, your spirit will become stronger. Able to resist the devil when he tempts you…Also when you make that committment to God, the devil will attack you more…so stand strong, put on the whole armor of God…i will be praying for you
So now, and I ask because I really want to know and not to be a smart alec, then why did Jesus pray to God? If he was part of God? Why did he say, “Let not my will take place, but yours,” as though they were two separate entities each with their own thoughts? I must say, the nature of God and Jesus and how they are related has intrigued Christians for two thousand years, and many have fought and died over their differences. Not true Christians though; ones who never took up arms against their fellow men. Christadelphians come to mind.
Hi Julia,
Most Christians, even Catholics and Protestants don’t take up arms against their fellow men/women too. When I went to church, I didn’t take up arms against the people there or anyone else from another group, and they didn’t take up arms against me, or anyone else for that matter. That’s just yet another MASSIVE generalisation that the WTS has put into your mind. Think about it, are all the church groups and people in them in your area fighting each other and participating in wars? Have these people ever done this in the past? Of course not! I don’t know much about the Christadelphians but they’re considered to be just as dodgy as the WTS/JW’s, Mormon’s and Seventh Day Adventists from a mainstream Christianity perspective. I find it interesting that they all started in the 19th century too, and that most groups that don’t believe Jesus was claiming to be God seem to have cult-like tendencies.
As for Jesus praying to God, he isn’t praying to himself as such. When God speaks his “Word” it becomes separate from him like a transmission. The “Word” forms in his mind, then he speaks his “Word”, so when this transmission reached us, it manifested itself in the form of Jesus, it “became flesh”, because the “Word” can be anything God wants it to be. However, just like your voice or my voice or anyone else’s voice, our voices reflect our minds perfectly, so Jesus reflects God’s mind perfectly – he is not the Father, he is the perfect image of the Father, the Son or “Word”. He can only “do the Father’s will” because he is the physical manifestation of the very “Word” that comes from God’s mouth. It’s a technique called personification, where an abstract ideal/concept is represented in human form. For example, the Statue of Liberty in the US represents freedom, hope and liberty in a human form, so Jesus represents God and his commandments in human form. If Jesus wasn’t claiming to be God, then why would God need a puppet to do his bidding, shouldn’t God be able to represent himself?
According to the Bible, God is giving us specific instructions through Christ, the physical manifestation of the “Word”, so he is showing us how to follow his commandments. Imagine if God was standing next to you right now, and you said to him: “How do I pray to you?”, then he would get down on his knees and say: “you pray to me like this”. So yes, Jesus is completely human, demonstrating how God wants us to follow his commandments, and yet also by his very nature is God also by forgiving sins, performing miracles etc. He functions in two roles, as both human and God. I think you’re getting close to understanding what mainstream Christians believe, but it isn’t easy, but then again, what Jesus was teaching wasn’t easy or simple; it can’t be easy, otherwise there wouldn’t be so much dispute about it.
In all honesty it took me ages to work it all out, and in a way, I think it should do. Getting rid of all our assumptions is difficult, whoever we are. Also, sometimes it’s not enough for anyone to tell you what something means, you sometimes have to work it out for yourself. So I think the best thing to do is to keep reading and analysing the Bible, and gradually, things become clearer as we gain knowledge and understanding. I really hope this helps.
very well put DB….reading about Jesus and seeing that He said I and the Father are one for the unbeliever is extremely hard to believe. The Jews said he was blaspheming God…They are the chosen people and they didnt believe…Everything we read in the bible is very hard to understand let alone believe…It takes the Holy Spirit to interpret for us…Thats why Jesus when he was leaving He said I will send you the Comforter…the one who will teach you and strengthen you…Remember when you spend time with God in prayer and you spend time reading His Word, you must ask for the Holy Spirit to interpret, or thank God for the Holy Spirit already present in your life…As you study His Word, those passages that are hard to rationlize will become second nature, and you will be able to apply to your life and the devil will not be able to cast doubt in your life…
I am reading an earlier article from this mag with a new perspective it states…………………….
IS YOUR TEACHING UP-TO-DATE?
Apollos was helped to improve the effectiveness of his ministry
We want to stay up-to-date with the understanding of Bible truth so that we can share accurate knowledge with others. With that in mind, how would you answer the following questions?
Whom did Jesus have in mind when he spoke of “this generation” mentioned at Matthew 24:34?—The Watchtower, April 15, 2010, pages 10-11.
When does the separating of “the sheep from the goats” described at Matthew 25:32 take place?—The Watchtower, October 15, 1995, pages 21-23.
As stated at Luke 21:26, when will “men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth”?—The Watchtower, February 15, 1994, pages 19-20.
By augmenting daily Bible reading with careful personal study, we will be able to help others walk in the ever-increasing light that Jehovah sheds on his written Word.—Prov. 4:18.
………………. quite frankly this part of the article shoots the whole article in the foot……….with the new light doctrine setting up us for the new George Orwell teaching of some pigs are more equal than others but telling us to research the Bible ourselves??????????????
Remarkably there is a footnote that states……….
“Of course, we do not use Bible counsel to pressure or condemn others. We should be as patient and kind with a Bible student as Jehovah is with us.—Ps. 103:8.”
…….therefore telling them to research the Bible for themselves and learn to develop logical thinking abilities
SUCH HYPOCRISY
Cedars,
Thank you for this site. I feel liberated Jesus said the truth will set you free and TTATT certainly does
You are a true sheprherd, the watchtower tells us laity to thank the elders
Cedars,
The same article also states……..
“Paul also mentioned a helmet, “the hope of salvation.” Without protecting his head, a soldier in Bible times could easily lose his life in battle. But with a good helmet, he could survive blows to the head without suffering serious injury. We build hope in Jehovah’s saving acts by studying his Word. Strong hope enables us to resist apostates and their gangrenous “empty speeches.” (2 Tim. 2:16-19) Our hope will also strengthen us to say no to those who would lead us into conduct condemned by Jehovah.”
……I do not consider your articles as empty speeches, ………most certainly I consider this WT article from Wt Study Edition April 2013
entitled “Receive Full Benefit From Reading the Bible” a hypocritical empty speech indeed.
Agreed. I “Received full benefit from reading the Bible” because now I see that the WT’s teachings are different to the message of faith given by Lord Jesus.
Hoochie Mama! How did I miss that all these years! I started reading the bible nearly 18 years ago and only just ‘got’ it.
One item that is missing–the dotted-line affiliations. Publishers are in the bottom tier. However, this pyramid doesn’t include the “special order” groups which equate to the Roman Catholic’s nuns, monks, Jesuits, and missionaries. These “orders” also hover above the low-ranking publisher, and can hold influence over circuit and district overseers, as they ARE the revenue generators. Like nuns and monks, Bethelite volunteers are worker bees without any power or influence over the general publishers, but hold respect ranking above general publishers, and these also have their own ranking from Bethel volunteer up through Bethel elder. Another special order, the pioneer ladder has its form of hiearchy, as well. Although pioneers are subject to the elder/ministerial servant entry, they leap-frog over these and have direct contact with circuit and district overseers when they’ve reached the 2nd-tier of pioneering–casual, recurring, then the full-time strata. Beyond pioneering order, you have the Gilead and foreign service volunteers who would equate to a “Jesuit” category with their unique and extended training for duty.
Now, if you sit in a Kingdom Hall, you will hear from the platform, repeatedly, that none of “God’s people today” are in clerical-laity classes, or that no matter what your label, your service to J* is rewarded and appreciated. In practice, however, wombs are reserved for men of status; sperm is reserved for wombs with status (ie: marries daughter of an elder to get to the position of MS or elder).
Another facet of this hierarchy and closed community–young men and women who have talents that outshine the existing power structure will find themselves harassed and driven out of the congregations if they do not subserviently submit to the existing power authority. This is similar to the way some cults’ male leaders drive out young boys and men to maintain their breeding dominance over the females. Examples abound of extraordinarily talented individuals whom jealous and envious elders drove from among them by trying to impose their arbitrary authority, or by the Governing Body imposing upon them. Likewise, if the authority doesn’t have a college degree, you will not get a college degree, and if you do, absolute terrorism and life as a “living hell” ensues.
Thats not true Tom. They stand while performing a demonstration. They just cant talk to the audience directly (aka: like a teacher).
Where in the bible did Jesus ever focus on some earthly organization. His focus was on the Kingdom of Heaven.
You can not ignore the basic truth here. This along with the pedophile cover up has the stench of Jesuits if you ask me. Another hypocracy is they called the U.N. the disgusting thing(and it is,it is more corrupt than most realize ,and the agenda is not nice) Well for 10 years the Watchtower society was a due paying member without informing the rest of us.Some of YOUR money went to kill people ! Now I know how a brother was able to give a talk before the assembley. This is disturbing. Should not the Watchtower be disfellowshipped for doing such a thing? or at least those behind the descision to do so?
Where is the dicipline for them ? I think the ” Get out of her my people” : may apply to ALL organized registered religions ? take the good as there is good research done by them in many areas, but take what is good, and the internet can be a great took,as well as libraries. Wake up to the dangers the watchtower is supposed to be warning us of in the world,like the terrible eugenics programs.[comment edited]
Sean, welcome to our site, which is a sanctuary from indoctrination of any kind. We have deleted your youtube link and the references to it in your post. You are entitled to believe your jesuit conspiracy nonsense if you feel it is productive for you personally, but please don’t go using this site to shove it in people’s faces. Thank you. Cedars
This is not a unique experience Julia. I also had this epiphany after dropping NWT and KJV and using the newer “plain English” versions. What I found in comparing the NWT to these “newer versions” is that the grammar akin to the KJV was awkward and clumsy–convoluting and obscuring the real meaning of a verse.
A prime example is the simple verse that explains Salvation.
Eph. 1:13-14; Ephesians 2:8-9,
NWT: “[8] By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. [9] No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting.”
NKJV [as example]: “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
Oversimplified, but the pattern continues. It is tiring and tedium using the NWT as a regular, study Bible because the grammar structure is not consistent with English. It’s a raw translation of Greek which uses different grammar structure and has no “translation/interpretation” to plain, modern English sentence structure, even if the terms and words are modern English, the structure and grammar are not consistent.
Whom did Jesus have in mind when he spoke of “this generation” mentioned at Matthew 24:34?—The Watchtower, April 15, 2010, pages 10-11.
The concept was to have “this generation” apply to all Christians in the body of Christ–anointed [we'll get to that later]–starting at Pentecost and going forward. Note, in this recent interpretation, “this generation” leaves the iron-clad fasces of 1914 intact. If they tried to unhook from 1914 AD, the entire “house of cards” crashes and burns. Without 1914 AD, you raise questions regarding interpretations of “other sheep,” doctrinal corrections such as dropping the Cross, birthdays, blood transfusions, and most importantly, the hierarchy structure’s validity. Before the GB and specifically, the Writing & Teaching Committee, can drop 1914 AD, they need to discover what new “device” to retain their authority and influence. They don’t have apostolic succession as a claim, now. So, the smart money is on a thorough research of the early Church Fathers writings up to the point of “apostasy” to find writings that coincide with “present truth” or allow an ease of transition to “new light” as “present truth”.
There’s only so many decades the phrase “just around the corner” can be stretched–strange, I can’t find that parable from Jesus or Paul, anywhere in verse.
Now, about that anointed adjective. Ephesians chapter 1 puts forth one concept–one faith, one baptism, one God, one Lord, one Spirit. One anointing. Prior to the earthly class/heavenly class introduced around 1931, the belief was in two categories of heaven-bound, but anointed Christians. Afterward, the doctrines introduced why the earthly class had no anointing, otherwise, you’d need to interpret into the sacred text reasons for anointed Christians lacking a seal and deposit (a token) of the adoption spirit.
If you ask the typical rank-and-file JW, what makes one “anointed”? The answer ranges from years of service as Witness and suffering trials and tribulations for His name to time of birth. In short, the concepts prior to 1980′s and 90′s was an “anointed one” had suffered during WWI or II persecution and afflictions as a Jehovah’s Witness. Scripture mentions trials and tribulations but it doesn’t state this as the cause for anointing. If so, how could the Ethiopian and others get anointing before baptism and before “proving” themselves?