14 Bible Verses That Dismantle Shunning As Practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses
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Jehovah’s Witnesses are generally respected as a friendly, polite, law abiding people. It is hard for an outsider to envision a Jehovah’s Witness being rude, insulting or cruel.

But despite Witnesses having mostly admirable qualities as individuals, the leadership of the religion is coming under increasing scrutiny for some of its more disturbing practices – especially that of shunning former members.

When you challenge a Jehovah’s Witness on their religion’s treatment of disfellowshipped or disassociated former members, you will typically be met with a response that goes something like this: “We do this as an act of loving discipline out of loyalty to God’s command.”

Those on the receiving end will reply to this by pointing out that ostracism to the point of not speaking to someone is anything but “loving,” and this sort of behavior has driven shunned ones to depression and even suicide.

But what about shunning being “God’s command?”

It turns out when you consult the Scriptures, the biblical justification for Watchtower’s disfellowshipping policy is flimsy at best. In fact, there are 14 verses I will point to in this article that either question or flatly contradict this controversial rule.

Before listing these verses, perhaps it would be helpful to briefly go through the Bible verses commonly invoked in support of disfellowshipping, along with the basic reasons why I believe these are misapplied. 

Bible verses used to support JW shunning

1. Deuteronomy 21:20, 21; 22: 23, 24

and say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, and he refuses to obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his city must stone him to death. So you must remove what is bad from your midst, and all Israel will hear and become afraid. … If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man happens to meet her in the city and lies down with her, you should bring them both out to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not scream in the city and the man because he humiliated the wife of his fellow man. So you must remove what is evil from your midst.

Are we really supposed to stone sinners to death? The law of Moses was supposedly nailed to Jesus’ torture stake (Col 2:14), which is why we’re no longer executing adulterers (or rape victims who don’t scream!).

If you are a Witness, before you say “But that’s an extreme example! The organization would never use those verses in defense of shunning!”, please consult the Organized book on page 140.

2. Matthew 10:34-37

Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

When read in context, this passage is clearly describing Jesus’ followers being shunned by their unbelieving family members, not vice versa.

3. 1 Corinthians 5:5-7, 11-13

you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough? Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. … But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

There is obviously a difference between not “keeping company” or socializing (i.e. dining) with someone and ignoring them as though they don’t exist – not even speaking to them. And “anyone called a brother” needn’t be applied even to family members. Even Watchtower makes allowances in this regard, allowing a disfellowshipped husband to remain with his wife and permitting children to continue living with their disfellowshipped parents. Also, 2 Thessalonians chapter 3 sheds more light on 1 Corinthians chapter 5, as I will explain later.

4. 1 Timothy 1:20

Hymenaeus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.

“Handed over to Satan” does not specify shunning as practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

5. 1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

This verse merely describes those who stop believing, or “disassociate.” It does not advise that believers should shun such ones.

6. 2 John 7-11

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

This verse is talking about “antichrists” who deny Jesus. Clearly, not all who are disfellowshipped cease to be believing Christians. Even those who do cease to be religious needn’t be shunned according to this verse, because it is contradicted by another Bible verse that I will come to later.

Obviously there are other Bible verses appealed to by Watchtower when it comes to promoting the practice of shunning (verses describing the divine execution of certain Israelites, e.g. Aaron’s sons or Korah and his followers, spring to mind) but for the sake of argument I have tried to focus on the most compelling and/or prominently-used scriptures.

Bible verses that contradict JW shunning

Having breezed through the Bible verses most regularly appealed to by Watchtower in defense of its shunning policy we can now get stuck in to the verses that contradict it. And it turns out there are more than you might think.

For the purpose of brevity I will only partially quote some of the longer verses quoted, but I would recommend looking up and reading the cited passages in their entirety, particularly if you are skeptical about the way I am applying them.

1. Matthew 5:43-48

“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

You cannot love your enemy in any meaningful sense if you refuse to talk to him or her. This verse also gives context to Matthew chapter 18, which I will mention later, since there Jesus said that avowed sinners should be treated as being “of the nations” (in other words, no longer “brothers”) and here he is saying that his followers should take no pride in only greeting their brothers.

2. Matthew 9:10-13

Later as he was dining in the house, look! many tax collectors and sinners came and began dining with Jesus and his disciples. But on seeing this, the Pharisees said to his disciples: “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” Hearing them, he said: “Healthy people do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”

Jesus here advocated the principle that, just because someone is a sinner, this does not mean they should be shunned. In fact shunning makes it impossible to help someone correct their course. Mercy, according to Jesus, was the dominant consideration.

It’s also interesting to note that Jesus’ eating with sinners was a continuing source of irritation for the Jewish religious leaders, specifically in the synoptic gospels. If Jesus wanted to leave his followers with the impression that sinners were to be shunned and avoided, he did an appalling job. (Compare Matthew 11:19, Mark 2:16, Luke 5:30; 7:34; 15:1, 2)

Jesus was rebuked by the Jewish religious leaders for socializing with sinners (Image source: JW.org)

 

3. Matthew 18:15-17

“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

No allowance here for kangaroo court-style judicial committees made up of Jehovah’s Witness elders. Rather, believers were to sort out grievances between themselves. Also, since Jesus ate with tax collectors (as we have already established), clearly JW-style total avoidance wasn’t on the menu even in the worst case scenario.

4. Luke 6:27

“But I say to you who are listening: Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you

Again, it’s impossible to love someone or do good to them if you are refusing to acknowledge their existence. And we are talking here about “enemies” who “hate” believers. Most disfellowshipped Jehovah’s Witnesses I know of have nothing but love for their believing family but are shunned all the same.

5. Luke 6:35-37

“On the contrary, continue to love your enemies and to do good and to lend without hoping for anything back; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue being merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Moreover, stop judging, and you will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and you will by no means be condemned. Keep on forgiving, and you will be forgiven

Again, you cannot show kindness toward “the unthankful and wicked” by shunning them. Jesus warned his followers to be forgiving rather than judgmental, reminding them that mercy should be the preeminent factor. Can separating someone from their loved ones be considered merciful?

6. Luke 10:25-37

But wanting to prove himself righteous, the man said to Jesus: “Who really is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell victim to robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went off, leaving him half-dead. Now by coincidence a priest was going down on that road, but when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side. Likewise, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the opposite side. But a certain Samaritan traveling the road came upon him, and at seeing him, he was moved with pity. So he approached him and bandaged his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them. Then he mounted him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said: ‘Take care of him, and whatever you spend besides this, I will repay you when I return.’ Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man who fell victim to the robbers?” He said: “The one who acted mercifully toward him.” Jesus then said to him: “Go and do the same yourself.”

In Jesus’ famous parable, which I consider to be the most beautiful passage in the Bible, the true neighbor turned out to be the heretic (the Samaritan) who had what Jews considered to be apostate religious beliefs, and it was precisely such a neighbor to whom his followers were reminded to show love.

7. Luke chapter 15

Now all the tax collectors and the sinners kept gathering around him to hear him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes kept muttering: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Then he told them this illustration, saying: “What man among you with 100 sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the 99 behind in the wilderness and go after the lost one until he finds it? And when he has found it, he puts it on his shoulders and rejoices. … In the same way, I tell you, joy arises among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Then he said: “A man had two sons. And the younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that should come to me.’ So he divided his belongings between them. A few days later, the younger son gathered all his things together and traveled to a distant country and there squandered his property by living a debauched life. When he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred throughout that country, and he fell into need. He even went and attached himself to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to herd swine. And he longed to be filled with the carob pods that the swine were eating, but no one would give him anything. “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, while I am dying here from hunger! I will get up and travel to my father and say to him: “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.”’ So he got up and went to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was moved with pity, and he ran and embraced him and tenderly kissed him. Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’ But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. Also bring the fattened calf, slaughter* it, and let us eat and celebrate, for this son of mine was dead but has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves. … ‘But we just had to celebrate and rejoice, for your brother was dead but has come to life; he was lost and has been found.’”

This chapter of the Bible, when read in context and fully contemplated, is dynamite to Watchtower’s shunning policy, which is probably why it rarely features in material on how disfellowshipped ones are to be treated.

Notice that the entire reason for Jesus launching into the parable of the prodigal son was that he had again been chastised for being too friendly with sinners. He responded by reminding his accusers that it was impossible to help someone or be a good example by refusing to interact with them.

In the parable itself, Jesus describes an errant son who only returns after exhausting his funds, making it impossible to continue his debauched lifestyle. Such a person would be disfellowshipped by Jehovah’s Witness elders for only exhibiting “worldly sadness.”

Worldly sadness, according to Watchtower, “mourns the unpleasant consequences wrongdoing brings. But it does not mourn over the unrighteousness itself, or the reproach it brings on God.​” (w72 7/15 p. 438) Furthermore, it is telling that the father runs to embrace his son “while he was still a long way off” – in other words, before any repentance could be determined.

The father ran to welcome his prodigal son while he was “still a long way off” (Image source: JW.org)

 

8. 2 Corinthians 2:1-7

For I have made up my mind not to come to you again in sadness. For if I make you sad, who will be there to cheer me up except the one I saddened? I wrote what I did, so that when I come I may not be saddened by those over whom I ought to rejoice, because I have confidence that what brings me joy brings all of you the same joy. For out of much tribulation and anguish of heart I wrote you with many tears, not to sadden you, but to let you know the depth of love I have for you. Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man; now you should instead kindly forgive and comfort him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness.

Interestingly, in his follow-up letter to 1 Corinthians (in which the most direct counsel on the treatment of wrongdoers is given) Paul sounds a vague note of regret at what he had written, or at least how it had been interpreted. (“For if I make you sad, who will be there to cheer me up except the one I saddened?”) He reminds the congregation of the need for forgiveness lest the wrongdoer “be overwhelmed by excessive sadness,” and even suggests that a “rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man.” This indicates it is not necessary for each and every individual in a congregation to “rebuke” a wrongdoer. It was possible, in Paul’s mind, to apply his words too harshly.

9. Colossians 3:13, 14

Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.

Self explanatory! Are you really putting up with someone or freely forgiving them by treating them as though they don’t exist?

10. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 9-12

For this is the will of God, that you should be holy and abstain from sexual immorality. Each one of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not with greedy, uncontrolled sexual passion like the nations have that do not know God. No one should go beyond proper limits and take advantage of his brother in this matter, because Jehovah exacts punishment for all these things, just as we told you previously and also strongly warned you. For God has called us, not for uncleanness, but for holiness. So, then, the man who disregards this is disregarding, not man, but God, who gives you his holy spirit. … However, concerning brotherly love, you do not need us to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. In fact, you are doing so toward all the brothers in all of Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to go on doing so in fuller measure. Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything.

Paul repeatedly expressed his belief that the punishment of wrongdoers was in the hereafter rather than the here and now

Paul believed that God would punish wrongdoers, and it was God, not man, to whom they were accountable. This is a recurring theme in Paul’s writings, namely judgment in the hereafter rather than the here and now.

Believing Christians were not to take punishment into their own hands. They were to “love one another” and “mind their own business.” 

Can Jehovah’s Witness elders who investigate and interrogate congregation members over accused wrongdoing (to the extent of delving into sexual matters in gratuitous detail) be considered to be minding their own business? Can it be considered evidence of “brotherly love” to behave in such a manner?

11. 1 Thessalonians 5:14, 15

On the other hand, we urge you, brothers, to warn the disorderly, speak consolingly to those who are depressed, support the weak, be patient toward all. See that no one repays injury for injury to anyone, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others.

Again, self explanatory. You cannot “support the weak” by ostracizing them and weaponizing family relationships against them. Patience is required, as is the avoidance of vindictive, judgmental behavior, i.e. repaying “injury for injury” through excessive discipline.

12. 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15

Now we are giving you instructions, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, nor did we eat anyone’s food free. … For we hear that some are walking disorderly among you, not working at all, but meddling with what does not concern them. To such people we give the order and exhortation in the Lord Jesus Christ that they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn. For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

If you read 2 Thessalonians chapter 3 and compare it with 1 Corinthians chapter 5 you find both passages are discussing the same problem of how to deal with wrongdoers.

Rather than being separate instructions – one for “disfellowshipping” (1 Corinthians) one for “marking” (2 Thessalonians) – Paul makes clear that the recommendation to merely “stop associating” (socializing) with “disorderly” ones applies to all the behavior outlined in “this letter” of 2 Thessalonians (see verse 14) which in the previous chapter includes a rebuke of the “man of lawlessness” who “did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Remember 2 John 10 (cited earlier) where readers were told to ostracize the “antichrists” among them by not receiving them into their homes or saying a greeting to them? Well, here we have different instructions. Paul’s suggested punishment for such ones was far less extreme. As far as he was concerned, the “man of lawlessness” who “stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship” could be dealt with more leniently, because it was for Jesus to “do away” with such ones “by the manifestation of his presence” if they failed to correct their course. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

Again, Paul apparently believed that morbid fear of the impending destruction of wrongdoers was sufficient motivation to bring them to their senses, hence his repeated counsel for Christians to not take matters into their own hands.

Even when describing believers distancing themselves from “disorderly” ones among them, this was only to be done to a limited degree, i.e. by refraining from “keeping company,” eating with, or “associating” with such a person – and, even then, they were to “continue admonishing him as a brother.”

13. 1 Timothy 5:8

Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith

If you are not providing materially or emotionally for a family member, perhaps because you have been persuaded to shun him or her by religious zealots, you are worse than a person without faith.

14. Hebrews 10:26-31

For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Interestingly, this verse was cited in a 1947 Awake! article titled “Are You Also Excommunicated?” (g47 1/8 pp. 27, 28) – an article that predated Watchtower’s practice of disfellowshipping, which wasn’t introduced until 1952. (Scans are available here and here.)

The article argued strongly that excommunication, which Watchtower has equated to disfellowshipping (see “Expelling” in Insight Vol. 1), is an instrument of “ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny,” “not without pagan influence,” that is “altogether foreign to biblical teachings.”

The verse from Hebrews chosen by Watchtower to argue this point again highlights Paul’s belief that punishment was exclusively God’s remit, not that of men.

Cruel, unbiblical, and detrimental to Watchtower’s aims

So next time a Jehovah’s Witness tells you that, by shunning their disfellowshipped family member, they are following God’s command, politely remind them that the New Testament is strewn with cautions to show love and mercy, and to refrain from being judgmental or taking punishment into one’s own hands.

Even Paul, Watchtower’s poster boy when arguing in favor of shunning, believed that sinners were answerable to God alone, and seemed to express regret to the Corinthians that the advice he gave them in his first letter could have resulted in “excessive sadness” when ruthlessly implemented.

But the biggest irony of Watchtower’s shunning policy is that, in addition to being cruel and unbiblical, it is actually detrimental to the organization’s aims. If the Governing Body were to reverse their policy of shunning, their organization would instantly shed a large portion of its cult reputation making it easier to attract new converts.

Yes, there would inevitably be an exodus if Witnesses were allowed to vote with their feet or were otherwise no longer bound to a captive organization. But whoever remains (I believe we would still be talking in the order of millions) could be truly considered devout believers whose loyalty to the organization would be beyond question.

Sadly, the penny is unlikely to drop any time soon. The Governing Body have wedded themselves to the shunning policy they inherited from their 1980s forebears in a string of Watchtower articles and propaganda videos reinforcing the rule to shun disfellowshipped family members (there were two video dramatizations in 2016 alone).

The stubbornness of these men knows no bounds. Their delusion is not only ruining lives for former members, it is also self-destructive both for the organization and its members who are forced to bypass their humanity in order to comply with “God’s commands.”

It is for this reason that JWsurvey remains committed to highlighting the abusive policies inflicted on Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not deserve to be exploited, threatened or lied to. Even though the “faithful slave” seem unmoved by the suffering they are causing, we who feel the brunt of their cruelty are appealing to the outside world loudly and persistently, and the media and various law-makers and influencers are starting to take an interest. Slowly but surely, our voices are being heard.

 

 

Author of The Reluctant Apostate and How To Escape from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

Related video:

Further reading:

* All scripture quotations are from the New World Translation, 2013 revision (obviously!)

** It should be noted that, despite quoting from the Bible and arguing along theological lines, the author of this article is an atheist. I am no longer persuaded that the Bible is a sound moral authority for reasons I have explained on my YouTube channel. However, even though there was nothing stopping the Bible writers from advocating shunning as currently practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses, it turns out this is not the case when examining their writings (or it can be said their advice on the treatment of wrongdoers is inconsistent at best).

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323 Responses to 14 Bible Verses That Dismantle Shunning As Practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses

  1. Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

    Just saw a great one on a T- shirt:

    SCIENCE…LIKE MAGIC…BUT REAL

  2. Ted says:

    eyes opened.

    Like the illustration and thanks for kind thoughts.

  3. Ted says:

    “Morality is doing what’s right regardless of what we
    are told.
    Religious dogma is doing what we are told regardless
    of what’s right.”

    I came across the above quote one time on YouTube,
    It seems appropriate to the inhuman practice of shunning
    and many other senseless and destructive demands
    of religion.

    • LWDP says:

      Indeed, it is better to be Godly and unreligious than to be religious and unGodly.

      • LWDP says:

        Come to think of it, organized religion gives so many people such a sense of superiority and entitlement (not enlightenment) that they really do end up doing some very unGodly things!

        • Gwen says:

          That reminds me of another saying I like; “I’d rather be around people who are good that need God then people who need God to be good”.

  4. Jill Finch says:

    Great video Lloyd

  5. resister says:

    Enjoyed your disassembly of JW Brainwashing 45, Lloyd.

    Hey Watchturdies, thought I went to sleep, huh? I saw what you did. In my tirade on all the DON’Ts in society, as well as in watchtower, I SARCASTICALLY stated “DON’T LEARN TO PROTECT YOURSELF”. Then, PRESTO, looks like the Holy Ghost directed you to include a story about a lonely little girl who was making her way up the competitive circuit in Tae-Kwon-Do. That is, until the Jehovies put her on the “right” path to fulfillment. LMFAO And, oh, those bruises and battered knuckles! Wa waa waaaaaaaaa. I’ve been there, and trust me, getting knocked around a bit in the Dojo is NOT THAT BAD. In fact, it can be rather stimulating. Even in competition, plenty of padding is worn, and no one is out to kill or maim you, like Gladiators. LMFAO again. Remember, those folks have to go to work the next morning. As always, WATCHTOWER IS FULL OF SCATA. Gotcha again!!! Nice try though. That’s it, Watchtrolls, keep those ladies down! Keep them vulnerable, weak, defenseless. That’s your style, isn’t it? You’re not real men, so I guess ya gotta do whatcha gotta do. Losers. 🙁
    Why not put it to the ladies themselves? Ladies, would you rather take a couple of friendly love taps in the Dojo, or get the real thing somewhere else? Think about it.

    • resister says:

      And let me just add one more thing. To be a self-reliant man or woman, please do not suffer from the misconception that you have to dedicate yourself to years of martial arts training, acquiring level after level of Black Belt, etc, transforming yourself into some kind of Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. Chances are, if you are ever threatened in the street, it will probably be by some incompetent buffoon (hopefully). Don’t worry about the color of the belt. Six months of once- or twice-a-week training will be enough to tune your body and turn you into a hardened killer (or close enough 😉 ).

      And remember … ATTITUDE ATTITUDE ATTITUDE

    • tranquillo says:

      Hi Resister, I for sure was missing you! things are pretty quiet here, no news, no articles for one month now…

      • resister says:

        I appreciate it, tranquie. Yes, I understand it’s been a little dry lately, but even more reason for folks to keep the comments coming! We can’t expect the JWsurvey crew to do all the work. Those folks have lives too. We’re in this together.

        GUNG HO = TEAMWORK

        • tranquillo says:

          by the way once out of the WT cage I started again practicising Kung Fu, traditional Mantis style. There is far more spirituality in martial arts than in fake religions. When I woke up I was obviously quite alone, so I went back to Kung Fu and was sure that I would find some fine friends and so it was.

          • resister says:

            Good for you.
            I totally overlooked the social aspect in my comments. You’re quite right, I remember the Dojo always being filled with good people – students and instructors! It really is not a bad way to make new friends.
            And I still remember watchtower articles trying to scare jw’s away from the Martial Arts by claiming it involved “spiritism”, Eastern meditation rituals and the like. Well, I never experienced such a thing. LMAO Just more Bovine Scatology from the self-deluded watchtower writing staff. Anyway, if anyone is concerned about being possessed by Beelzebub, but still wants to learn self-protection skills, they can check out Israeli Krav Maga or Russian street-fighting or the like.
            PS a bit of trivia – just as Gung Ho means “Work Together” or “Teamwork”, Gung Fu or Kung Fu simply means “Work Hard” or “Hard Work”. Certainly nothing mysterious about that!

  6. resister says:

    In reference to JW Brainwashing 45, speaking for myself, I used to play some of the most violent video games (anyone remember “DOOM” – with the chainsaw? lol), and I’m a very peaceful person.
    In fact, there’s another theory that violent games / movies are cathartic and actually lead to less violence. Remember, the vast majority of murders, wars, and genocides occurred long before video games were invented!

    • resister says:

      OK, that was a bit of a logic faux pas. Of course the vast majority of violence occurred before video games were invented. Video games have only been around for 40 years or so (at least if you count “Pong” lol). Still, there doesn’t seem to have been a catastrophic increase in global violence since the advent of video games.
      So go ahead and decapitate those Demon-Zombie-Alien-Vampire-Nazis!

  7. Ted says:

    Was watching a film about Richard Kuklinski , known as
    “The ice Man, a contract killer for the mob killed over
    a 100 men but categorically refused to harm women
    or children. Got me thinking about the Old Testament
    God Yahweh who had no such scruples, pregnant
    women ripped open, children dashed to pieces, cannibalism,
    children cooked and eaten during famine, inflicted upon them
    by you know who. Kuklinski an obvious homicidal
    psychopath said to have “Paranoid Personality Disorder”.
    What’s the verdict on Yahweh ?

    • outandabout says:

      Yahweh is clearly a maniac, Ted and they tried to temper that with Jesus and that only works if you need it to. Yahweh and Jesus – both sides of Mans nature. Man made God in his own image, not the other way around. Clearly, if triangles had gods, they would be triangular in shape.
      By biblical accounts God has killed millions and Satan six.

      • resister says:

        And what about that poor sod who was struck down for touching the “ark of the covenant” as it was falling off the donkey cart? That poor bastard was punished just for having natural reflexes! Presumably, natural reflexes bestowed upon him by none other than Yahoo himself. WTF? Looks like Yahoo likes to set ya up, just so he can knock ya down! What are we to him – bowling pins? Like Adam and Eve. He commands them not to eat from the tree, knowing full well the fools will do it, then jumps out of the bushes and yells “AHA!!!”

        • outandabout says:

          Adam and Eve? Notice how the bible plagiarizes Greek thought (the Greeks proposed the idea of atoms) and creates Adam from a handful of dirt but poor old Eve cannot be made equal to Man so is made from Man thereby owing her very existence to him, thereby helping to continue misogynistic thinking. In ancient thinking, man was surely made superior to woman because man was physically stronger and back then, survival depended on the man. This was seen as the order of things thousands of years before the bible and the bible just carried that thought over.
          Incidentally, the Greeks also thought the world was a sphere, not a circle as the bible states. More plagiarized thought touted as original and unique to the bible thereby cementing its authority. The bible is only an account of how we thought things worked at that time. As an example,we don’t believe animals got there spots and stripes by standing a certain way in front of bushes while mating anymore.

  8. resister says:

    So I see the latest slogan in hollywood is #BelieveSurvivors. Hey Self-Righteous Hollywood Saviors of the World, does that also apply to JW child survivors of abuse? Or are you Watchtower Sympathizers like your celebrity friends Serena Williams and Prince?

  9. resister says:

    JW Brainwashing 45 really gives me the giggles. I mean, they must be getting desperate for good stories. The “personal experiences” were pretty lame. A little girl gives up martial arts competition to become a jehova witness because she wasn’t feeling fulfilled. So what? Who cares? 1000 years ago, some guy got shoved around in the street because he wouldn’t salute the flag. Big deal. Who cares? Not interested. Go f—- yourself. Looking for fulfilment? Buy a puppy. Volunteer. Play video games. Read a book. Get a hobby, you know, like glass-blowing.

  10. Ricardo says:

    For those getting bored, I would like to suggest googling: Wikipedia Jehovah’s Witness child sex abuse

    It gives an up to date rundown of the recent court cases Watchtower has been involved in, and cases now going through the courts. Attorney Irwin Zalkin is extremely active- check out some of the cases in the references.

    Sure is good to see justice being done.

  11. LWDP says:

    Is this working?

  12. Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

    So I guess it was the Season Premier of “Lethal Weapon” that aired last night (with the new guy as Riggs or whatever because the other actor apparently was a bit of a lunatic), and I have absolutely nothing to say about it because I wouldn’t know where to begin. Unfortunately, the networking geniuses replaced the funny “L.A. to Vegas” with that piece of crap. Figures. Sorry to be off topic, but Propaganda is Propaganda. I honestly wonder if anyone from Watchtower HQ moonlights as a writer for “Lethal Weapon”. I’m not even joking.

  13. LWDP says:

    Lloyd, I don’t have a Twitter account, but I read your recent tweets. You’re right, standing up for justice is not bullying. Don’t listen to the idiots who criticize you for respectfully requesting feedback from those organizations, on the WT DV Policy issue. Also keep in mind, and this is something everyone should be aware of, some, if not all, of those “critics” could be actual JWs posing as apostates.

    • resister says:

      On the Domestic Violence issue, watchtower seems to be standing on its tried-and-tested Philosophy of “Leave it in jehova’s hands”. Yeah, it’s okay to get the snot beaten out of you, because your reward is coming … in the future … maybe tomorrow … maybe the next day. Maybe 1914. Maybe 1923. Maybe 1935. Maybe 1975. Well, for SURE before the end of the 20th Century!!! Same old tactic used by every religion to keep the serfs in line. The Arabs say, “N’sh’Allah” – “God willing”. The consensus among the Faithful is that, if your situation sucks, that’s no reason to take action, because it must be God’s will.

      • resister says:

        Old – but still funny, and relevant – Yakov Smirnoff joke:
        In America, you have so many channels on television. In Soviet Union, we only have 2 channels. Channel 1 is State Propaganda Channel. Channel 2 is KGB Officer ordering you to turn back to Channel 1.

  14. resister says:

    I may be a little slow, but it just dawned on me. The Watchtower Society really is the biggest and worst cult in the world!

  15. LWDP says:

    I’ve been following the interesting, budding Twitter war regarding Watchtower Society’s abusive Domestic Abuse policies and Lloyd’s efforts to respectfully elicit some kind of response from Women’s Aid organizations. The people who oppose those efforts and accuse Lloyd of “bullying” those organizations (which of course is ludicrous – how do you bully an entire organization?) are either complete dimwits or are doing a very good job of pretending to be complete dimwits. Either way, they are unwittingly exposing their own contempt for women for all the world to see. Indeed, Jehovah’s Witnesses witnessing to the world through Twitter, but this time they betray their true feelings. You can run, but you can’t hide.

    • LWDP says:

      This is exciting. A Second Front is opening up, and the Watchtower vermin know it. Thus all the hostility. They are trying to crush it before it gains momentum. They are already being hammered on the Child Sexual Abuse issue. Now with the Domestic Violence issue, if the attack is pressed, they may end up with more than they can handle. Could panic be setting in?

      • LWDP says:

        Without trying to sound cynical, any JW victims of Domestic Violence out there, something to start thinking about: legal action, police, restraining orders.

  16. LWDP says:

    Since I mentioned Jehovah’s Witnesses and their true feelings, I think it’s safe to say that the average Jehovah’s Witness knows almost nothing about their own religion. My mother had a fridge magnet with the tetragrammaton on it. I know that some JWs had key chains or even bumper stickers with the tetragrammaton. This was a practice that was neither encouraged nor discouraged by the so-called “Governing Body”. However, that representation of Yahweh’s original name is completely inaccurate. Those characters are indeed Y, H, W, and H…..in modern Hebrew. In ancient Hebrew, the language in which the Old Testament was written, those characters are completely different, in fact closer to Phoenician. Thus, the Watchtower’s version of the tetragrammaton is wrong. Yet more proof that just because something happens to be printed in The Watchtower (or anywhere else for that matter), does not automatically make it true.

  17. outandabout says:

    I see we have 200 million year old examples of petrified wood. I’m wondering, when God made the trees with the wave of a hand, how many annual growth rings did he put on them?

  18. hobgoblin238 says:

    So interesting you practice NO religion at all yet you still try and um, fail to use the bible correctly.

    • hobgoblin238 says:

      What is also interesting….is that you come out and act holier than thou against shunning TTTHHHEEENNNN ban me from your youtube channel. Don´t worry folks. You will not see theses comments either. Ole dirty hippie ¨Lloyd¨ will delete these comments and ban me here too. Total hypocrite.

      • resister says:

        Yeah, hobgoblin238, maybe that’s because your comments are childish and emotional, and don’t seem to have any point.
        PS The only real way to “correctly” use the bible, is not to use it at all, or just to use it as kitty litter box lining. Just my humble opinion.
        PPS Have you yourself read the bible? As in, the WHOLE bible? Just curious.

      • Ricardo says:

        @hobgoblin, it didn’t happen. Why is it that when brothers bring up the true situation to the elders, they get shut down? On several occasions I tried to talk about the court cases Watchtower lost, on a personal basis with elders, but they shut down the conversation straight away.

  19. resister says:

    Any JDubs out there, please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. But to my current understanding, the Watchtower Society’s policy on Domestic Violence can be summed up as follows:

    1. Beat the snot out of your spouse.
    2. Cry a lot and beg forgiveness.
    3. If Step 2 doesn’t work, and your spouse goes to the elders, proceed to Step 4.
    4. Repeat Step 2, but this time in front of the elders.
    5. This will result in either …
    a) The elders telling your spouse to “leave it in Jehovah’s hands”,
    b) The elders telling your spouse to pray/read/study more, or
    c) The elders encouraging your spouse to work on themselves to become a better partner.
    6. Rinse & Repeat.

    PS Has anyone ever been disfellowshipped for Domestic Violence? Is Domestic Assault even a disfellowshipping offense? Anyone from HQ like to respond?

    • resister says:

      One reason the elders resort to 5a, b, and c, is because it’s EASY, and most elders are INCOMPETENT BUFFOONS WHO DON’T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE REAL-LIFE SITUATIONS.

      • Big B says:

        Great points and summation Resister!

        The vast majority of elders have no college background and even less training in sociology, psychology, psychiatry or anything that resembles family counseling. Though they maybe well intentioned it would be futile for anyone suffering from spousal abuse to go to the elders and expect relief as most of them are blue collar workers in non professional fields. The same reasons apply as me going to an automotive shop for a tooth ache. Other than commiserating with me an auto mechanic would be of no use fixing my toothache and the same case applies to taking my car to the dentist for a tune up.

        The Society’s stance on “professional counseling” is frowned upon for the same reasons as pursuing higher education. The Watchtower believes that the Bible has all the answers to mankind’s problems, family or otherwise. That’s where they are totally wrong and misguided.

        The Governing Body fears those with college degrees and professional councilors as these ones could easily see that the friends are in a high control group and, as professionals, would encourage the ‘sheeple’ to leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult. Thus the sad situation that abuse victims that are Jehovah’s Witnesses find themselves in. A trap of the body, mind and spirit; backed up by the misinformed elders applying mistaken Biblical beliefs. It’s the old F.O.G. treatment ( fear, obligation and guilt) applied once more. Pathetic!

        • resister says:

          So true, Beester. WT leadership is terrified of any of their people having contact with the “outside”. So many suffer from depression, yet if any went to see a psychiatrist, what would the professional tell them? Probably that their condition is largely a result of a slavish lifestyle that keeps demanding more and more. But would they / could they even accept that diagnosis as reality? After all, they have been conditioned to believe that they are “the happiest people in the world”, living “the best life”, and that any negative feelings must be the result of living in a “Satanic, demon-controlled, evil, wicked, un-Godly world that hates Jehovah and his witnesses” and will soon be destroyed – that is, as soon as enough “overlapping generations” pass – they just have to be PATIENT.

          • resister says:

            Patience IS a virtue, but like anything else, only in good measure.
            Be too patient, and you could end up being A patient !!!

          • resister says:

            Be “long-suffering”? Sure.
            But an intelligent person asks, How long is “long”???

    • resister says:

      PPS JW ladies, how long do you plan on putting up with this crap?

  20. resister says:

    Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol, I’ve been following those tweets too, and I totally see what you mean about people pretending to be dimwits. Nobody can be that stupid for real. It’s obvious they are trying to misdirect the narrative by throwing all kinds of curve balls, trying to twist and distort the logic of Lloyd’s argument and motives. You may be right, sir. PANIC may indeed be setting in!!!

    • resister says:

      The hostility and hate coming from those people is phenomenal. And yes, so is their obvious contempt and disregard for women. What misogynists!

  21. Ricardo says:

    Has everybody seen the news yesterday
    that Watchtower just lost a court case and has to pay $35 million? In Montana. https://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/montana-jury-awards-m-in-sex-abuse-lawsuit-against-jehovah/article_1bcabb7c-7381-574b-a2ba-e011cc0250a6.html

    The elders refused to obey caesar’s law to report a pedophile.

    For how long can they bury their heads?

    • resister says:

      Saw it. Loved it.
      CHEERS everyone! +++ sound of glasses klinking +++

      • resister says:

        Ricardo, I doubted you back in the day, when you said you were at odds with the elders, and got DF’d. I believe I called you a lying sociopath. Over time, it seems you were indeed being sincere, so I apologize for doubting you and calling you names.

        • resister says:

          It’s hard to know who you’re dealing with through a computer screen. That’s why I call it Antisocial Media. LOL Even dealing directly with flesh-and-blood “friends”, I have been betrayed and lied to many times. I’m sure my experience is not unique.

          • resister says:

            Sometimes it makes me wonder if Evolution took a wrong turn somewhere, and started to create mutated people who are genetically incapable of telling the truth.
            Politics aside, perfect laboratory example: Donald Trump.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Resister, as I have said to others: after dealing with the elders, nothing anyone says can be more insulting than them.

          Having become used to being misunderstood, I have developed great patience and insight .

          I appreciate your apology and thank you for it. That’s very good of you, although I was not at all offended by whatever you said. But we’re good. No problem.

          • resister says:

            Cool. But it doesn’t mean we’ll be taking long hot showers together till the wee hours of the morning.
            😀 😀 😀

    • resister says:

      Montana – Another victory for truth and righteousness!

  22. messenger says:

    I read the judge has to review the award in Montana. And like in some other WT cases he could set it aside and order a lesser amount. Also WT says it will appeal like it usually does. I still believe the largest awards will still come through class action lawsuits, which are bound to eventually come if WT fails to get out of this mess it’s in before the next five or ten years.

    Bethel told the elders not to report to authorities in Montana. I guess that’s a clergy mandated reporting state. If so those elders and Watchtower also broke criminal laws. In California we can serve time for that if there is no statute of limitations that could prevent it.

  23. resister says:

    Resist watchtower
    Resist watchtower
    RESIST WATCHTOWER

  24. resister says:

    Tired of family members who are elders or elders’ wives pulling “rank” on you?
    Fed up with elders using their perceived “authority” to bully you?
    Had enough of being treated like a twelfth-class subhuman?
    Well, good news! You too can be an ORDAINED MINISTER!!! You can start throwing your OWN weight around, with the credentials (Certificate & I.D. Card) to prove it!
    Here’s the link:

    venganza.org/ordination/

  25. Lethal Weapon Donut Patrol says:

    So I see Lloyd’s clicker is up to 32 days with still no substantive response from those Women’s Protection groups. Those organizations deserve praise for the good work they do. However, their silence on this very serious point is enough to make you go, “Hmmmmm.”

    • outandabout says:

      Those organisations could be run by a strong Christian element and give tacit but unacknowledged support to bible ‘values’ hence the ‘quiet and hope it goes away’ approach. Just a thought.

      • resister says:

        Perhaps the Clown Prince of the White House will do something about it. Oh, forgot, he & his staff are all about victimizing women, not protecting them. Oh well, at least we have USMCA. I feel better already. But then, I’m a man.

        • resister says:

          Remember Judge Judy’s Court with Judge Judy?
          People’s Court with Judge Wapner?
          What was that other one? Was it Rapist’s Court with Judge Cavanaw maybe? My memory’s a bit foggy. I drink too much.

        • resister says:

          Come to think of it, haven’t noticed a lot of female names here lately. Ladies, you still out there? This kind of concerns you. If you’re worried about breaking a nail, just type gently. 😉

          • resister says:

            Is the whole world suffering from A.D.D.? Now that there hasn’t been a fresh article in over a month, have most commenters taken off golfing? Can I come? And folks wonder how lying abominations like Watchtower and Trump can still exist.
            Just sayin’.

  26. resister says:

    LWDP, you’re welcome. Me too!

  27. resister says:

    33 days. If you want to know who is in control, find out whom you are not allowed to criticize. Maybe those Women’s Aid groups are afraid that if they say anything, it will be met with swift and vicious retribution by Watchturd. And they may be right. Fear is a reflexive emotion experienced by all living creatures, to some degree, when in danger. We have no control over that. We can only mitigate it. LIVING in fear, on the other hand, is a choice! “Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.” Like the liberty to speak your mind, what we know as freedom of speech. Frankly, I don’t see any risk in a little tweet, simply acknowledging in a respectful way that Watchtower’s spousal abuse policy is wrong. Unless it’s something else, like a “jurisdictional” thing. Maybe they prefer not to share any credit for helping women, with a gnarly group of unaccredited apostates. Sorry we don’t have a fancy logo and such. And we’re certainly not at their level of effectiveness and expertise in this endeavour. But then, all we’re asking for is a little tweet. Great old maxim: An OUNCE of prevention is worth a POUND of cure. The BEST way to combat injustice is to change ATTITUDES. And that includes unequivocally CONDEMNING the kind of SATANIC propaganda coming out of Watchtower headquarters. EVERYONE should be lobbying to have Watchtower’s advice to abused wives classified as HATE SPEECH.

  28. resister says:

    Watchtower, why do you hate women?
    Do you have Mommy issues?

  29. resister says:

    What’s with all the old white dudes on the Geriatric Body? Is Yahweh a racist?
    PS Looking forward to that Leah Remini thing.
    PPS She’s so pretty!

  30. resister says:

    The absence of resistance from JW females regarding Watchtroll’s satanic spousal abuse policy leads me to personally conclude that most JW ladies are only interested in securing protection and food, not unlike animals. Let them and their male counterparts spew all the verbal diarrhea they want – their actions / inactions betray them.
    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

    • resister says:

      … Reminds me of the dysfunctional relationship between Archie and Edith Bunker.

    • eyes opened says:

      Greetings Resister,
      I chose wisely. I have not been in an abusive relationship. I can only imagine what emotions may be involved in such a relationship. As a woman I can understand why security may take preference, depending on the kind of abuse of course. Children must be protected, period. But I would suggest that until you are a woman in such circumstances you may wish to refrain from your final comment. To suggest that a woman who chooses security doesn’t deserve it is wrong. You go so far as to call such a woman an animal??? Perhaps you have no idea of the emotional toll that could cause another person to feel unworthy of seeking better circumstances for themselves whether man or woman. Perhaps you have no idea what their next situation would be if they did leave, might it be even worse? If they left their spouse how much family and friends may decide to shun them rather than help them? I don’t know, do you? Resister you make bold comments at times some of which I find spot on, some not so much. I have no desire to start a war of words and time consuming bantering, but because of your degrading comments toward women I must say Shame On You. If you feel you must take me down a notch or two have at it.

      May you find peace with yourself…

  31. PKay says:

    Canada Supreme Court stated: “If the elders determine that the member does not exhibit genuine repentance for his or her sins, the member is “disfellowshipped” from the Congregation. Disfellowshipped members may still attend congregational meetings, but within the Congregation they may speak only to their immediate family and limit discussions to non-spiritual matters.” – Source: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/17101/index.do section #5
    … However my understanding is that immediate family is instructed not talk at all about anything, not even to respond to a text message from their disfellowshipped family member (Convention video). And thoughts?

    • Ricardo says:

      @PKay, you will find that what is written and what is expected practice are two different things. Let me give examples:

      As mentioned, if the person is genuinely repentant they should not be d’fed. However, a CO can put pressure on a judicial committee to give an appropriate punishment for a sin, thus negating whether there was repentance or not.

      Or, as in my case, the elders were able to establish a pattern of negativity towards the leaders (glorious ones). Once a pattern is established, no repentance is possible because it is not a single act but a pattern. If the elders don’t like you they can find a pattern in whatever you do. You are minced meat. And if Jehovah allowed you to be d’fed then the decision must have been right, otherwise Jehovah would not have allowed it. So although the Governing Body is not inspired and are fallible, the Judicial Committee elders are inspired and infallible, it seems. Speaking against their decision is the same as speaking against Jehovah, because what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.

      As to the treatment of d’fed members by their family, the latest videos show that complete cutting off of any contact is expected. Although what is written in the publications is mentioned above in the Canadian Supreme Court, reality based on the videos (the regional convention video plus a video about followers of Korah) is completely different. This is why it is difficult to expose the real situation of shunning: there are mixed messages, with the hardline response being the expected response and peer pressure in the congregations ensuring that it is the given response: complete non-contact.

    • messenger says:

      I didn’t go to your posted link but what you described as the court’s ruling sounds like it just upheld Watchtower’s position. If immediate family is defined as those within the household that’s been Watchtower’s position. Nothing changed. The court sided with Watchtower if what you said is correct. I am not aware of anyone winning a court case on the disfellowshipping and shunning issues against Watchtower. It might have happened. I don’t know about it. It’s not worth spending your money for that.

      The lady that started Silent Lambs, Anderson, did that and ended up getting a court ordered judgment against her in a counter claim. And it was quite large.

  32. messenger says:

    On another website someone posted a Leah Remini show on Jehovah’s Witnesses starts next month. If Lloyd or John Redwood are in it I bet mum’s the word.

  33. resister says:

    @eyes opened

    You’re right. There’s no reason to get into a war of words. I think we’re both basically on the same page. But in your feminine zeal to condemn the words of the Big Bad Man, who is just trying to help women by telling them the TRUTH, you conveniently overlooked an important part of my comment. If you re-read it, you will note that I was not targeting women alone. Notice the phrase “…AND their MALE counterparts”? If that doesn’t make it clear enough, let me express it directly: Men are JUST AS GUILTY of behaving like debased animals. Trust me, I’m not giving any man a free pass, myself included. Just another Truth. If that doesn’t remove me from your crosshairs, I don’t know what will. So if you’re looking for Big Game to hunt, I suggest you look elsewhere. No offense. But if you’ll read previous comments of mine, you’ll see that I have done NOTHING but encourage women to STAND UP for themselves, be INDEPENDENT, even to the point of learning to PHYSICALLY defend themselves! If ANYONE, WOMAN or MAN, is too LAZY to do that, well, it’s not my problem or my fault, is it? If anyone out there, WOMAN or MAN, is waiting for someone like me to “tickle their ears”, they’ll be waiting a long time! I’m just trying to help. Take it or leave it. And by the way, where were all YOUR comments condemning the people who DESERVE it??? I’m trying to wake people up, but because I said a couple things that didn’t sit well with you, you did not hesitate to pounce. How is that supposed to help? And as far as the shunning issue which you brought up, that’s a completely different issue, which is dealt with on this site regularly.
    I also resent the implication that only women understand abuse, uncertainty about the future, and emotional pain. Are you kidding me, lady? That’s SEXIST!!! Are you saying all men are emotionless robots incapable of feeling or understanding pain? PLEASE wake up and smell the coffee. Ever met a male Veteran? I myself have been through abuse, insecurity, fear, emotional pain, etc, but that never stopped me from taking RISKS, and WILLFULLY transitioning from one situation to another to another to another, IN SPITE of FEAR. So don’t try to turn this into a male/female thing. It is a HUMAN thing. Like I said, if you’re looking for a Male Chauvinist Pig head to stuff and mount, you’ll have to look elsewhere. Sorry about that.
    You say women who seek security at the expense of liberty still deserve liberty. Fine. Let’s forget the “deserving” part of that proverb, which I did not create by the way. It is still a historical FACT that those (men AND women) who put security ahead of liberty, LOSE both. So don’t argue with me. Argue with all of human history. Like I said, just trying to help. Take it or leave it.

    • resister says:

      PS I am not the one ENCOURAGING women to passively remain in abusive relationships.
      So talk to Watchtower. Don’t talk to me.

      Fear and Discipline.

  34. resister says:

    In the 12 hours between eyes opened’s post and my response, I see no one uttered a peep in my defense. Fine. That’s not a problem for me. I don’t have any issues with Every Man for Himself. Absolutely no skin off MY ass. Not to brag, but to show I don’t just talk the Talk, I have occasionally jumped in on behalf of others, with my two cents’ worth. I have tried to generate a little team spirit here, but I have failed miserably. Don’t worry, I blame myself. But I’m tired of defending my positions singlehandedly. That’s why I’ve decided to say Goodbye to JWsurvey and all its visitors. Not that it’s a bad site. Quite the opposite. For accuracy, professionalism, and relevancy in the year 2018, I believe it is the best site on the internet. No kidding. I have greatly enjoyed my time here. But, and this is a very big but, lol, I feel I have been using this site as a crutch. Maybe I’ve been enjoying it a little too much. And the internet can be addictive. I sense it’s time to move on. After all, I’ve actually begun annoying MYSELF. Lol
    I wish Good Luck, All the Best, and Godspeed to EVERYONE. I thank Lloyd and his Team for indulging my many “passionate” tirades. I just hope it did some good, maybe started some ripples. But to anyone who still believes that I am some disgruntled, agitated, angry malcontent, all I can say is that I feel sorry for you. You obviously have never been passionate about anything in your life. Living in your protected bubble (so far), you do not understand the nature of human conflict, psychology, or sociology, and likely never will. That having been said, I bear no one any ill will. We all choose our own paths.
    As for the JWsurvey team, don’t let anyone tell you that you are anything less than top-tier, professional, no-kidding Journalists. And I’m not just talking about the internet. Anyone who claims to be looking for truth, and denigrates this site, is not looking for truth.
    So, with my terminal breath (on the internet, that is 😉 ), let me go out saying the following: 1001 curses be upon Watchtower. May they return to the Hell from whence they came. I feel no sympathy for them, and never will.
    PS Same goes for Trump and that Kavanaugh guy.
    PPS Watchtrolls, if you think this means a small, nagging thorn has been removed from your side, you’re wrong. Things are going to get worse. Much, much worse.

    • eyes opened says:

      Resister you may have noticed no one has commented “good for you eyes opened” and that’s okay. I had my say and you had yours and I’m good with that. Whether or not you leave the site is your choice. The variety of comments on this site is what makes us all think and then offer our own comments and that can be a good thing.

      All the best Resister.

  35. Ted says:

    Aw! resister, so sorry to hear your leaving us, friendships
    can be formed sight unseen and I looked forward to your
    perceptive comments and anarchic wit and humour,
    I count you as a friend as I’m sure others here also do.
    Wish you hadn’t uttered the ultimatum leaving yourself
    no way back, good luck buddy.

    • outandabout says:

      yeah come on Resister. Settle down. Look at all the flak that messenger put up with and loved every bit of it. You shoulders are just as broad, aren’t they?

  36. tranquillo says:

    Resister, I for one appreciate your comments. Ted described your humor as anarchic wit and if fits you. You express your thoughts vigorously and that may lead to reactions. Eyes opened expressed her opinions politely and addressed to you.
    As for having an addiction to the site, I suppose that everyone of us has the same phases to go through when exiting the JW cult. Some linge somewhat longer in one or another, then we all move on.
    best

  37. Freedom says:

    The JW’s faith and their believes must be so WEAK and without SUBSTANCE, if for someone that claims to be so strong in their faith, can’t even listen to or have a conversation with another person with differing views and opinions. The JW’s governing body know that their believes are based on flimsy, man made and self interest interpretation of the bible, that will not stand up to logical and sound reasons. Perhaps that is why the governing body forbids any JW to have a conversation with any normal, sane, logical and a person that is capable to thinking and working things out for him/herself.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Freedom, a reasonable person would agree with that. However, the true believers see that Satan is ready to use ANY opportunity to attack their faith and make them doubting Peters (as in Peter when he started to sink rather than walk on the water) or doubting Thomases. So as to protect themselves fully, they must close their minds to any thought or influence which does not agree with what they know to be the truth.

      I remember as a teenager, reacting to the Watchtower cover ‘Do you have an open mind?’ I said to the field service conductor, “It seems strange to be asking other people to have an open mind when we don’t. ”
      He answered, “We don’t need an open mind. We have the truth. ”

      Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to get a sensible answer from the elders when we have questions that come up in our minds, because these guys are not used to thinking and reasoning things out; they just accept unquestioningly. Because that is what submission means . And as a witness the most important thing is submission. Just accept what the faithful and discreet slave says. There is no need to understand it.

      • outandabout says:

        Ricardo….their was a time when you would never say something like that. You’ve been thinking and your words give meaning to the phrase – ‘reason is the Devils harlot’. You’ve just described what goes on in the minds of all believers of any faith and how they must lie to themselves and others to keep the faith alive.’ Are you willing to apply those observations to yourself?
        ‘A lie told once remains a lie. A lie told a thousand times becomes the truth’ – Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister.

      • Big B says:

        Your statements are insightful and correct, Ricardo.

        It’s not about standing up for truth but bowing down in submission. The truth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses version of “truth”, is a constantly morphing and changing value. A constantly moving target. What is considered ridiculous today just may be the “truth” tomorrow.

        For example, we used to poke fun at those in Christendom who believed in the “rapture”, Christians who would be taken into heaven without dying first. As of 2013, the Watchtower July 15 pg 10,11 shows exactly that in a drawing of their time of the end timeline. It specially states that the remnant of Christ’s Kingdom heirs would be removed from earth before Armageddon begins! This is really a big, important doctrinal change that was not discussed in the lesson and as a result many Witnesses, including the elders, don’t know of this change.

        So with the revealing of this fabulous ‘New Light’, Christendom has proven to have the correct interpretation after all and Jehovah’s Witnesses are forced to play doctrinal catch-up. The same can be said of who compose the ‘superior authorities’. The Witnesses were saying for decades it was Jehovah and Jesus but after WW2 were forced to concede that the superior authorities were the worldly governments; just as Christendom had believed for years.

        Jehovah’s Witnesses are a 1984, Orwellian, mind control cult. Period! As you said Ricardo, the Witnesses must accept everything that comes from Walkill without question or face the consequences, as you well know, of their non adherence to the new prevailing beliefs. And you can believe that Big Brother sees and hears all, especially dissidents, those who dare question and complainers.

        But no worries though, the doctrines of today can change just like the weather! Just carry your umbrella and be prepared for the thousand year reign. Ha, ha!

        Big B

        • messenger says:

          This fellow while not trying to be was a real character was. Years later I turned him in to WT while blowing the whistle on some elders in another congregation over another issue. When I was with him the WT study conductor told me to cut my wife’s allowance to put pressure on her to comment during the Watchtower. Of course I didn’t. But the next meeting after the direction was given, and all subsequent meetings this joker and the WT conductor refused to call on me. So let me retract my first sentence, the guy would to some people try to be a prick.

          I think in that talk about the foreplay he referred to that Jew who spilled his semen on the ground not to have children. So he taught if you ejaculate before intercourse your act is sinning against God.

        • messenger says:

          A letter to all circuit and district overseers from Brooklyn Bethel, dated Sept. 1, 1980 photocopied with letterhead on pages341 341-342 in CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE reads in part:

          “Page 2

          Keep in mind that to be disfellowshiped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1,1980, Watchtower, “The word ‘apostasy ‘ comes from a Greek term that means ” a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment. ” Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostisizing. Extended kindly efforts should be put forth to readjust his thinking. However, if, after such extended efforts have been put forth to readjust his thinking, he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what he has been provided through the ‘slave class, ‘ then appropriate judicial action should be taken. “

        • messenger says:

          Big B are you familiar with the letter to all circuit and district overseers photocopied in the 4 the edition of CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE on pages341 -342 in CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE that reads in part :” Page 2
          Keep in mind that to be disfellowshiped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1,1980, Watchtower, ” The word ‘apostasy ‘ comes from a Greek term that means ‘a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment.’ Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostisizing. ”

          The letter goes on to state efforts are to be made to readjust his THINKING but if he continues not to accept the faithful and discreet slave’s teaching then take appropriate judicial action.

          So as you stated THINKING is what’s on trial with Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s their huge sin. Christ taught follow him for salvation; he did not teach that followers of his MUST believe his rich man and Lazarus account was an allegory, or that they MUST accept it as a literal account.

  38. messenger says:

    I was just now posting this on another Site and thought you guys might enjoy it.

    I remember an elder giving a talk back in the 70s from WT literature, and it was about how much a Christian could rub his/ her marriage mate’s genitals in sexual foreplay before they are sinning. The elder said if you do it this much it’s okay, but if you do it that much it’s not, it’s sinning. If you reach orgasim before intercourse because of the rubbing you definitely sinned. The elder teaching us that insightful bit of information in his talk inside the Kingdom Hall was Jake Fulwiley.

    A Saturday Night Live writer couldn’t make this stuff up.

    • Big B says:

      Jesus Christ have pity!

      This, messenger is truly insane. See my above comments to Ricardo and tell me this kind of nonsense proves that Orwell’s 1984 is alive and well and being practiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. Your example speakers volumes. Amazing; was this factoid on the Society’s outline or was this his own spiritual insight and wisdom?

      • messenger says:

        Yeah it was pretty far out there. And of course that guy gave that talk with kids in the audience. Two were his. You can rub your mates genitals this long, but if you rub to the pint of orgasm you are sinning.

        Here’s another one. Back during the time of the Jim Jones massacre we had a district overseer in this primarily Black circuit that looked kind of like him. I was new at the time. The circuit overseers in that African American part of town back then were another breed from those I’ve seen any place else. I don’t know what they are like now. I hear Samuel Herd served there before I arrived. But the way these guys spoke at circuit assemblies was not at all like they spoke at district assemblies. At circuit assemblies they were five times tougher, and five times looser.

        So we had this district overseer named McGee. I was thinking about inviting my astranged grandfather to this circuit assembly because he lived in Baldwin Hills, close to this Lemert assembly hall. But I didn’t, and after seeing what happened at the ASSEMBLY I was glad I didn’t.

        The district overseer was up giving a talk. Then all of a sudden he said, “I started to commend you parents for keeping your children in their seats during the program, and not letting them go to the restroom” then he started yelling, ” but there goes one now, STOP HIM, STOP HIM ATTENDANT, WELL THE ATTENDANT MUST BE ASLEEP. ” It felt like a cult, that this fellow was a dictator, and it seemed those other people in positions of authority were afraid of this guy.

        He had a habit of telling the audience, and I quote, “For lunch break don’t any of you go outside by the parkway because the fags are out there. ” I remember our last assembly with him. He was smiling and saying goodbye to people, because he could be personable when he wasn’t acting the tyrant. He told us his next assignment was in San Francisco, known to have a heavy homosexual population. I moved from that area. But I asked one of my close friends who was an elder by that time about McGee. He told me the friends in Frisco ran him out of there. He said McGee had mouthed off to them but that’s another story.

        Okay I’ll tell what he said. He told me McGee was at an assembly at the Cow Place. It must have been a district because that’s too large for a circuit. My friend claims McGee said, “You may have heard that I just came from serving in South Central Los Angeles. Some of you friends have been asking me how the friends are doing in that area, being a rather economical deprived area. WELL THOSE FRIENDS DOWN THERE ARE NOT DEPRIVED, YOU ARE THE ONES THAT ARD DEPRIVED. I SEE SOME OF YOU COMING HERE IN YOUR HELICOPTER OR FANCY CARS. THOSE FRIENDS ARE DOING JUST FINE. ” My friend claimed that’s what got him run out of Frisco.

        One last thought. When I heard Anthony Morris III tell everyone in the United States the if a brother is 21 years of age and not appointed by Watchtower as a ministerial servant then he isn’t marriage material for a Christian sister I thought of those circuit overseers in South Central LA. Morris wasn’t as mean sounding, but it was the same type of opinionated crap he was talking. And Slammin Sammy Herd seconded the talk by stating what fine encouragement Morris gave. By that time I knew there were quite a few lying prick elders, because I’d had run ins with several. But before that I didn’t think the governing body and Watchtower was like that. Tony Morris’ talk opened my eyes. I knew something was wrong. That’s when I started researching Watchtower, and the first thing I checked out, and what I did at first was watch. Lloyds videos. I guess I read some of the articles, but I mainly remember watching the videos. And I determined Watchtower was apostate. I don’t remember reading you guys comments until some time after that.

      • messenger says:

        If I remember this point correctly he might have included that Bible character that spilled his semen on the ground so as not to get some woman pregnant in his talk.

        So, watch how you rub your mate’s genitals. A little is okay but you had better get to intercourse before ejaculating. And this character actually taught if not you sinned, AND ACTED AGAINST GOD’S WILL.

        This same character stopped calling on me at the meetings when I raised my hand, BECAUSE I WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE DIRECTION OF ANOTHER ELDER WHO TOLD ME TO CUT MY WIFE’S ALLOWANCE TO MAKE HER COMMENT DURING THE WATCHTOWER STUDY. Both of them stopped calling on me because I did not follow that direction. And I didn’t even have to tell them I didn’t follow it. The very next meeting after the direction was given they stopped, and never called on me after that.

      • messenger says:

        I didn’t see the outline. I was still rather new. He might have elaborated on what the Society wrote. What I shared is burned in my memory. But I think he also shared that Bible account of the Jew that was having intercourse then spilled his semen on the ground so as not to produce a child. But this fellow’s concentration was on the degree of petting that could faithfully be done with your marriage mate before intercourse or if you don’t have intercourse and just pet. If YOU even get close to ejaculating you sinned according to him. Also I can’t remember if it was a public talk or a part on the service meeting.

        Could you imagine teaching someone will be judged worthy of everlasting death in the New World for that? Too bad a comedian didn’t hear this guy and televise it as a skit.

      • messenger says:

        I am not sure if this was on an online. I can’t remember if it was a public talk or during the service meeting. I think he shared the Bible account of the man that spilled his semen on the ground so as not to produce a child during intercourse. The other comment I mentioned about no petting to a point close to orgasm might have been his belief based on that Bible account.

  39. Ted says:

    Good one messenger, foreplays ok so long as you don’t
    enjoy it too much. The elder giving the talk seems to have
    devised a system based on increments of intensity, just
    another example of amateurish meddling creating guilt
    and damaging inhibitions. Anyway it’s left an impression
    on you, sorry I missed it, wonder what the kids made of it.

    • messenger says:

      That elder had a couple of his own kids there. Back there the biggest difference between what I saw in other districts that were integrated mostly White came from circuit overseers though. The circuit was covering South Central Los Angeles in the 70s. Here’s an example:

      We had a district overseer named McGee? During his talk on a circuita ssembly he said, ” I started to commend you parents for keeping your children in their seats during the program, and not letting them go to the restroom, but wait there goes one now, ” then he started yelling, ” Stop, STOP HIM ATTENDANT, THE ATTENDANT MUST BE ASLEEP. ” This fellow also had a habit of telling us before the lunch breaks and I quote, “Don’t any of you go outside by the parkway because the fags are out there. ” That’s what those South Central circuit assemblies were like back then. It appeared to me other elders were afraid of the circuit and district overseers.

    • messenger says:

      I just thought of what is even funnier if it went this way. I just assumed he was giving that talk from Society notes because public talks are given from WT outlines and parts on the Service Meeting were mostly given from Kingdom Service printed materials or where that KM directed the speakers to research . But there is one Service Meeting part that didn’t direct the speaker. It was the SPECIAL NEEDS PART. I’m not saying he did this, because I don’t remember, but what if he shared that info as a SPECIAL NEED.

      • messenger says:

        Okay brothers and sisters. It’s been reported to the elders that there has been excessive heavy petting going on between the married couples. So, our special needs part tonight is on the sin of petting too much to induce orgasm or taking your mates to the verge of orgasm.

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