Royal Commission Case Study 54: What to expect

With Case Study 54 only a few days away, a lot of discussion has been circulating as to exactly what we can expect when Watchtower appears once again before the Australian Royal Commission.

I‘ve decided to chip in a few observations here to help set expectations and to contribute to the discussions as best I’m able. So without further ado, let’s quickly run through what we know:

  • What exactly will be discussed?

According to the Commission website, the scope of the study is as follows

  1. The current policies and procedures of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd in relation to child protection and child-safe standards, including responding to allegations of child sexual abuse.

  2. Factors that may have contributed to the occurrence of child sexual abuse at Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd institutions.

  3. Factors that may have affected the institutional response of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd to child sexual abuse.

  4. The responses of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd to relevant case study report(s) and other Royal Commission reports.

  5. Any related matters.

The purpose of this public hearing is not to inquire into individual sets of facts or particular events as has occurred in previous Royal Commission case studies.

  • Why does the Case Study 54 hearing appear to be only one day long?

This may appear at first glance to be a surprise. How can a single day of testimony possibly be enough to cover the vast and complex issue of Watchtower’s child abuse scandal?

Well, remember that Case Study 54 isn’t a fact finding mission. That was Case Study 29. The Commission investigated and interviewed witnesses from February 2015 through October 2016, and ultimately issued a detailed report on every aspect of Watchtower’s failure. As far as the Commission is concerned, the facts are in. There is no further debate. Case Study 54 is tasked purely with a quick review of those facts and then with publicly asking Watchtower what is has done to address the damning failures identified in Case Study 29.

Remember what Justice McClellan said to Watchtower’s legal team? That they were going to come back to Watchtower and publicly ask them what had been done to address the issues?

That’s what this is.

  • So what has Watchtower done in the 21 months since Case Study 29?

As far as I am aware, the only potential effort from  Watchtower to address any of the concerns raised in the Royal Commission has been to no longer require an abuse survivor to confront their attacker. However, it was not clear from testimony if this practice had actually been halted before the Commission sat. Watchtower seemed to insist in testimony that it was, but their documentation did not reflect this.

Thus one cannot say with certainty that even this potential change has come as a result of the Commission report.

  • So Watchtower is going to stand before the Commission, after 21 months, and basically say they’ve done nothing at all?

I have no idea.

I mean, that would be the honest thing to do, but remember how slippery and devious Watchtower was in Case Study 29, with senior Watchtower officials like Rodney Spinks, Terrence O’Brien and Governing Body Member Geoffrey Jackson attempted to mislead and outright lie to the Commission on multiple occasions. As far as I can see, Watchtower has three options

  • Admit they’ve done nothing and that they don’t intend to for religious reasons, and turn the whole thing into an issue of religious freedom.
  • Try to stall and muddy the waters by saying they’ve not had enough time, that they have no authority to make the changes required without Brooklyn agreement, knowing full well that Brooklyn is beyond the reach of the Commission. The idea here would be to stall until the day is over, then slink away and wait, knowing no further testimony is required.
  • Dive full into another round of misleading doublespeak and outright lies to try and pull the wool over the Commission’s eyes.

Which one will they pick? Again I have no idea. Judging from Watchtower’s jaw-dropping legal incompetence in Case Study 29 and in the recent Fessler case, it’s very hard to predict their strategy. It seems to have no rhyme or reason, but keep in mind three things.

  • The men in charge of Watchtower are firstly very deluded. They genuinely think they are defending God’s organisation against Satanic and apostate attack, and feel that compromise will be a victory for Satan.
  • The men in charge of Watchtower are very out of touch with real life, spending all their days in a world where you don’t question Watchtower or those who run it, and now they’ve risen to the top. Their word is law. Odds are that no-one has told Anthony Morris III that his ideas are stupid for a very long time. They have no idea how to handle the kind of environment the Royal Commission brings to the table. Geoffrey Jackson’s excruciating performance, where the Commission made mincemeat of his arguments, was proof of that.
  • The men in charge of Watchtower are caught between being honest with a Commission that has all of their dirty little secrets on the one hand, and playing to the growing audience of JW’s who they know WILL find out about March 10th one way or the other. They have to both be as compliant as possible to the Commission whilst also appearing to be steadfast and unmovable to the Witnesses who will end up seeing the testimony on YouTube.

So delusion, seclusion, and public relations are all going to crash into once horrible mess as they did in Case Study 29 and as a result I have no idea what Watchtower will do on Friday.

So come join us and find out!

The JW Survey team will be following events live, giving a commentary on Twitter via our @jwsurveyorg account. Yes this will mean lots of coffee for some of us due to the time difference. I’d suggest following the account now to make sure you don’t miss anything.

We also hope to preserve the live steam video for future reference as the Commission does not archive or make this video available once the live stream is over. However, technical gremlins are always a factor so if you have the ability to record the live stream, it would be a great idea to do so as well. The more people do this, the less chance of this footage being lost forever.

Lastly we will of course be following up with articles on the day, giving you a more detailed analysis of what has transpired.

Get your popcorn (and your coffee if you’re staying up late) and lets all observe the car crash together!

And one last thing: if it is safe for you to do so, please tell as many Jehovah’s Witnesses as you can about the events on March 10th. Their children are at risk and they don’t even know it. They may choose not to look up the Case Study, but simply being aware that it exists is the first step in raising awareness that the Governing Body is not being honest with them about the international scandal of child abuse inside the Watchtower organisation.

Follow me on twitter @covertfade

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185 Responses to Royal Commission Case Study 54: What to expect

  1. Ted says:

    They’re delusional and paranoid. They truly believe they are the
    elite, the subjects of an invisible kingdom and that the rest of the
    world is out to get them.

    It’s an anathema to them to apologise to victims harmed by the
    antiquated and mis-applied rules of their own revered law book.
    Or to humble themselves before perceived inferior authorities
    by admitting their policies are irrelevant and damaging.

    A factor concerning paranoid delusional’s is “They do not change
    even when proof is presented that their ideas are unsound.”
    No wonder Judge McLelland in exasperation said “Move on
    Mr, Stewart, They just don’t get it” !

    • Meredith J says:

      Hmm where is it? The ARC seem to be a bit shy about this subject of late. They are not putting much information out about this at present. Patience is a virtue.

  2. Meredith J says:

    This comment turned up on an ABC Australia website. Seems like it must be from an ABC radio program.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-10/jehovahs-witnesses-accused-of-failing-to-adopt/8343354

    Most of the local news outlets are ignoring this story. Australian news now is flooded with ‘fake news’ (boring nothing news like a new flu vaccine coming out for example, to hide the real news like ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses is Accused of Cruelty to Abuse Victims by ARC’). Instead the media ignores this to fool Jehovah’s Witnesses once again. It’s theocratic warfare alright.

    I just saw on another website that Witnesses think that the ARC is a fabrication of apostates. Can you believe the naivety and stupidity of it’s people? The cult has really taught them not to think for themselves. So pathetic. Now I know why my family and friends think I’m a real sucker. But then if you are trying to do the right thing, your friends will be few, while the world will hate you according to Jesus. To be expected. May the will of God remain clear to those who are awake at this time.

    • JBob says:

      @Meredith – perhaps, but consider that JW’s are a minor percent of the total Aussie population, so as I’ve often said, the rest of us couldn’t give a flying kangaroo (or fig) about some JW sex scandal, or consider it as just another case of learing and fondling as there are so many cases coming out lately from so many sources–Olympic associations, college athletics, various churches, schools, etc.

      So, on the radar, getting a flu preventative is bigger priority than the idiosyncrancies of some American corporation/religious group and a boring commission meeting where conversations drone on and on, and terms I learned and forgot in school are thrown around like coasters.

      Was it national news when the JW’s came out with their new bible?

      • Meredith J says:

        The difference here JBob is that this is the first time an organisation has defied the Royal Commission, which is like an enquiry to find who is at fault and what can be done to fix a problem. You just don’t do that and I am sure this is why it is culpable and serious in the eyes of the government. They have steered themselves into unknown waters here and the government as to figure out how to handle this.

        There is no one from Watchtower offering any apologies and no money is being offered as compensation. Yet, it is obvious that those in charge are thoroughly brainwashed without knowing their guilt, which I think the judge found very disturbing. No doubt the public will find that intriguing and disturbing too. Don’t you think? Very cult like. (1 John 3:8).

  3. messenger says:

    @Ricardo

    Hi Ricardo. I think you’ll find this video extremely interesting. Its on youtube called, ‘Into Darkness-Jehovah’s witnesses history-scans provided.’

    • Ricardo says:

      @Messenger,
      Thank you for your thoughts. I have seen information similar before. Some good youtube videos to watch also are called ‘Watchtower is NOT Gods Organization, FOR Jehovah’s Witnesses’ and ‘Cult Tactics and Mind Control – B.I.T.E.’

      It is not the past teachings that trouble me so much as the new teachings. Since when did we believe that Jehovah controlled the weather? Why do little kids have to throw away their Jack and the Beanstalk books just because there are magic beans? Did Jesus’ disciples in the first century understand his prophecy of the overlapping generation? Didn’t they have their socks shocked off them when the destruction of Jerusalem came so early… the generations had hardly overlapped when bang, Jerusalem’s gone.

      And then there are the governing body members. They just look so dumb. Sanderson looks like a Sultaran from Doctor Who (a potato headed alien), I can’t stand Lett with the rubber face. They don’t come across as guys who know what is happening. Geoffrey Jackson at the ARC was a disgrace.

      I can’t understand what is so important about our new understanding of Jesus’ illustrations of the mustard seed and the leaven (now representing the growth of true Christianity as compared to the previous understanding: the growth of false Christianity). Why is it so important that Jehovah has revealed this to us and not to the brothers living 10 years ago? Why us? What special effect is it supposed to have on us?

      And now that I am aware of the culture of bullying there is in this organization (previously I thought the problem was me, or maybe just problem elders) I am not enjoying being a member of this organization anymore. I am really confused.

      Some friends say the organization is part of Babylon the Great and they have got out of it to worship Jehovah on their own. You say (I hope I have this right) that we are like true worshippers in a group run by leaders of which many are pharisaic.

      I would like to ask your thoughts on leaving and worshipping Jehovah on our own. I hope nobody objects to that. (Sorry Chiafade). What do you think will happen in the near future for those who want to worship Jehovah?

      • ruthlee says:

        Ricardo I would really like to reply to you but it would break the evangelizing rules for posting Where there’s a will there Y’s a way where there’s no will there’s a hill. Some of us have left the cult fully awake with faith intact and better for it . That is not the same for everyone and we all respect other persuasions. You can find your path without wtower start by reading John to Revelation but not in that travesty the silver sword. Cheers Ruthlee

        • Ricardo says:

          @ruthlee,
          I read of your regret at having made sacrifices for this organization, for what? And I am thinking, after forcing myself to go to meetings for the past decade because Jehovah wants me to, and after being treated like dung by the elders for so long, and now seeing that bullying others is a culture of the elders and is happening to many good brothers and sisters, I’m thinking: for what? I am much happier to worship Jehovah at home. The GB and its elders are hampering my worship rather than aiding it.

          Thank you for your thoughts ruthlee.

          • messenger says:

            @Ricardo

            If you or I taught that inch measurements (an inch for a year) of an Egyptian pyramid’s hallways corresponded to Bible prophesies we would be labeled as what? Apostates! and that by all Christian denominations, including our own, as well as all these nice folks that post on this site.You know that’s true.

            So, why give WT a pass? All Bible Students that believed Russell and Rutherford held that belief until Rutherford denounced it in 1928. You’re a logical person who believes in the god of the Bible. Based on what you know the Bible teaches about God, could he possibly have chosen an organization that taught that pyramid belief in 1919, as his sole organization on Earth? Could he have chosen it at all, even as one among a group of other denominations?

            Once I listened to taped readings of the whole Bible in a 30 day period. Doing so I noticed some teachings stood out, because of being redundantly repetitious, much more than those ideas did in WT literature, even though WT is quite explicit and correct on those particular points. The point that stood out the most was God’s condemnation of idolatry. I remember the prophets wrote over and over, speaking as God to Israel, ” You did…., and…., and…., and you committed idolatry. Listening to those readings over that short time span drove the point home, for me, like it had never been done before or since.

            What WT teaches, and how it behaves now, has significance, that’s true. But also if it started as an apostate religion, that also is very significant. If it started as an apostate religion that claimed to be the only true representative of Christ and God, that is even more significant. And it is much more significant if it started as an apostate religion, that claimed to be the sole spokes group for God, and labeled every other Christian church as “Babylon The Great.” Would that behavior describe actions like a faithful and discreet slave, or like the evil slave Christ spoke of?

            You have to make up your mind about what you think WT is. Consider if it has always existed in or out of favor with God, by examining facts against hat you know the Bible teaches .

            My personal belief, as I’ve always said, on this site, is that the weeds are still with the wheat, sheep in religions are still with the goats, the fish in the dragnet are of diverse kinds. I don’t believe all other Christian pastors or their churches are part of Babylon the great.

            As far as worshipping God from home, that is not to clear to me at this time. It’s possibly ok, but I’m not God or Christ, and unless I’m pretty sure I’m correct about what they think I don’t want to offer my opinion on it….because I don’t want anyone to follow me and be misled. Follow Christ. As stated, my belief about other churches is that there are some members in them that are sheep, and some goats. I don’t receive all my Christian education or association from WT.

      • messenger says:

        @ Ricardo,

        The reasons I said I believe Christ accepts Christians inside the JW org are two. The first I don’t expect you to believe, because if I were you I wouldn’t. Nevertheless, since it shapes my belief, in complete honesty I must tell. I saw the future of some people in the millennium. I only knew two of them, myself and one other. The other person lived their life as a devout JW, while not knowing the things you and I now know about the WT org. The second reason is because of scriptural teachings. The wheat are with the weeds, the sheep are with the goats, the dragnet is full of a variety of fishes, until Christ returns with his angels. And that has not happened yet. When he does everyone alive will know.

        I won’t comment on points if I don’t clearly understand how those points fit into God’s purpose. My personal belief is that ALL who sincerely believe in Christ and his father will be saved, with this caveat: If people really believe then that belief effects their life, and they live as friends of Christ. I believe all people that REALLY want to know God find him. I believe the path to finding him starts with a strong desire to do so. And I believe the way to God is simple… much simpler than we were taught. I think its almost little kid simple, and that a person doesn’t have to know any more than can be understood by a kid. Think of what you would want from people if you were God. You’ll probably see those ideas in scripture. And if you’ve a strong desire to know God you will. That’s what he does, makes you know him when you really want to.

        The apostles didn’t teach in parables, as Christy did. So, their directions were fairly clear because of that. Follow those. Pray to God like you really mean it, and like he is a friend that cares for you, and not in the structured formal way as we do in groups. Talk to him, like you talk to me.

        The false teachings people teach are not important to truth, so don’t get hung up about those or how you feel about those falsehoods. Christ will handle those, sooner or later. So let him do that. He said it would be like this. You can’t change it. God and Christ see the future, that’s why what they say can’t be changed… someway it already happened with them. I don’t know how… maybe they can go back in time..I can’t figure out their method of doing so. I believe because of that they already know what you’ll do, and the outcome of your actions. If you’re a friend everything will work out ok for you. So, don’t worry about it. Just be a friend, like their friends in Bible stories.

        Best wishes buddy!

        • Ricardo says:

          @Messenger,
          Thanks for sharing those thoughts. They mean a lot to me. What you say seems reasonable, has the ring of truth and agrees with what we expect from God as a loving father. It is a view that connects with something inside me.

          There is a lot more that I would like to say, but it seems like we feel about the same on many topics. Thanks.

          • Winston Smith says:

            @Ricardo,
            I caution you against looking for “the ring of truth.” That sounds similar looking for a sign from God, which is dangerous because it is easy to be misled. Remember, at one time you probably felt that the JW message had “the ring of truth” too.

            Better to trust to knowledge and reason. These are the greatest gifts the Creator has given mankind. Remember the proverb (4:7): “Wisdom is supreme—so get wisdom. And whatever else you get, get understanding.”

            WS

        • ruthlee says:

          Great thoughts messenger I agree to be god’s friend is the only thing. I think we need likeminded people but I don’t think it is compulsory to attend church. Community helps and relationships and trust take time to build so maybe the facility of the church is a good arrangement to supply social needs. I think it is more complex than this but leaving the cult and being bereft of any social contact it is a start.I trust god enough to letme use my own judgement now and if I mess up I pick up rather than feel the condemnation of jdubs. that’s a nice feeling. My prayers are so real now because I don’t follow the rules. Hope this helps. Cheers Ruthlee

          • Winston Smith says:

            I too appreciate the point about being God’s friend. Reminds me of Abraham. Apparently, he had no holy books, no church, just his powers of perception. All these external things are unnecessary. As per my earlier comment: fundamentally, reason and logic are all that are needed to find truth.

            WS

      • Big B says:

        @ Ricardo;

        “And now that I am aware of the culture of bullying there is in this organization (previously I thought the problem was me, or maybe just problem elders) I am not enjoying being a member of this organization anymore. I am really confused”.

        Don’t be confused anymore, Ricardo. Go with your gut feelings if it doesn’t feel right or make sense then it isn’t true. We know from our Bible reading that Jehovah is not a god of disorder but of peace.

        We also know that correct knowledge and dogma is given at one time not in bits and spurts. Noah received the measurements of the ark not in many discussions but the instructions (length, breadth, and height) were given all at once. Moses received the ten commandments, not in installments, but all at once. This crazy business of telling people what they need at the time only to get New Light (read: New Lies) every twenty years which usually is the exact opposite of what was taught tells me, and by extension you, that the Governing Body is just guessing not inspired by anything much less the Holy Spirit.

        You know it’s true because you are suffering from cognitive dissonance which is:

        “In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress (discomfort) experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values; when performing an action that contradicts existing beliefs, ideas, or values; or when confronted with new information that contradicts existing beliefs, ideas and values”.

        This is the reason you don’t feel right (cognitive dissonance) because in your heart you know that what you’re being taught is incorrect. For example: Jehovah’s Witnesses have, since WW2, been taught (before the Babylon the Great book in 1963) that Babylon the Great (whore of world wide false religions) rides the scarlet colored wild beast (U.N.). Yet for ten years, according to the Guardian newspaper, the Watchtower was a member (NGO) of the same organization that they said was the Satan inspired scarlet colored wild beast.

        A few questions for all thinking Jehovah’s Witnesses: If their membership to this organization was all so innocent why don’t the friends know it? Why have the Governing Body killed this story with silence? More importantly if a Jehovah’s Witnesses knows of this hypocritical act why would they still be involved in a organization doomed to destruction along with the rest of the whore of Babylon?

        Doesn’t the angel in mid-heaven warn at Rev. 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues”.

        There is still time to remove yourself from this apostate, false, Christianity before its too late. Jehovah will not save ‘organizations’ especially those that have misused and abused his name. He will however, save INDIVIDUALS who follow the teachings and believe in his son, Jesus, as the messiah.

        This I firmly believe which is why my family and I left. Even Lot lost his wife because she ‘looked back’. Sometimes in order to save yourself (and hopefully others in your family) you have to be the first to take a stand and LEAVE. The Watchtower has only the power over you that you decide to give it.

        Just my two cents for what its worth. Good luck with your fade.

      • JBob says:

        @Ricardo – if you have done your research, by now, you should be aware of the influences on Charles Taze Russell. George Storrs and George Stetson, as well as the connections he maintained and sometimes conditionally endorsed [outlining the parts he disagreed with]. The Advent Christian Church which was influenced by George Storrs is still around–a minor group of several thousands. The belief structure is not always the same, but similar. You will also find that there are independent Bible Student groups–resulting from the schisms from Russell and later from Rutherford.

        But, in this modern day, you will find some individuals who did Bible research independent of the Watchtower publications and landed somewhere between orthodox Christianity and Protestant beliefs, sometimes retaining difficult to shake and engrained Watchtower teachings.

        If you dig deeper, you will find this pattern exists even with the Watchtower. Why a once-a-year Memorial? Why a focus on 144,000? Why an obsession with a soul that dies when the bible uses soul interchangeably with life, blood and spirit?

        Of course, there is the individual who can find freedom in an unfree world–the quiet dissenter who goes about doing things their way, discreetly. He, or she, doesn’t need to preach what they’re about, nor explain where they are, why they weren’t somewhere or what they did with the ten hours they didn’t supply.

        Learn the art of not answering CO’s, elders or MS types–socially, polite disobedience. It will last a few years/months before the frustrated elder, or CO, writes a letter to HQ. But, it can buy you time to plan your escape, build a network of alternative friends and associates as you disconnect from Watchtower. It can also help you plant the seeds of dissent among family you wish to come with you.

        As far as I recall, no one accused the curious child, or observant child, who noticed this odd change in the Watchtower’s view. No, it’s highly exaulted because even some of the jaded, but not faded, JW’s miss the details in an information overload coma.

        Best wishes, my friend.

        Ref: “How I Found Freedom In an Unfree World” Harry Browne [libertarian, but some points are great for changing perspective and a sense of being trapped]

  4. Ted says:

    The lack of reporting is disappointing to those of us who want
    to see their shameful practices, and attitude exposed. But the
    fact is they are just not that newsworthy not that important.
    They are way down the list from the football results.

    They try to convince their followers, and themselves that they
    have flooded the world with their message in fulfilment of Matt-
    24:14, And that they are the locust plague prophesied in
    Revelations sent out to to torment apostates and the like who
    do not have the seal of God. “And get this” the stings in the
    locust tails are the. “Magazines”. (Oh Boy!) –>

    I can assure them that a demanding letter from the IRS, has a
    hell of a lot more sting than any Watchtower I have ever read.
    And furthermore it looks like the locusts are losing their tails,
    what with the closing down of branches, the selling off of
    printing presses, Bethel redundancies, and a general down-
    sizing etc.

    So while exposure of their antics at the ARC would have been
    gratifying, the lack thereof is really a positive thing, it shows
    how insignificant they are in the eyes of the world. /. Apart
    from those who have been affected by their poison. No ones
    interested!

    • Winston Smith says:

      @Ted,

      A very sound and reasonable assessment.

      WS

      • outandabout says:

        You hit the nail on the head, Ted. Nobody knows because nobody cares about the JW’s , but the JW’s themselves believe they are the highest power on earth and rulers in waiting. Could that be classified as a Certifiable delusion, I wonder.

        • HardFade says:

          You are all correct. I used to study with folks and explain how the JW’s are a “spectacle to the world” because of our stance on Bible based principals and remaining neutral on the world scene!!!!!!!!!!! Fact is…JW’s can’t even be a spectacle for doing horrible & corrupt things because nobody even knows they are alive!!! Except for an occasional joke about the door knocking, JW’s are not on the mind of a single person on earth. How can they be a spectacle LOL! They (and I WAS) are so deluded!!! So, like…the scientologists alike wouldn’t even be in the news if it wasn’t for their notorious affiliation with celebrities. I asked my sister if she knew how many Mormons there were…she had no idea the JW’s had less members! I mean… JW’s are nobody. The only reason why I hate this fact (besides the fact that I grew up thinking that I was part of something special and that I knew something most people on earth didn’t know) … is that the ORG is NOT subjected to enough bad press!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Big B says:

            To Ted, Winston Smith, outandabout, & HardFade:

            Jehovah’s Witnesses are in fact next to nothing. A Millerite ‘Great Disappointment’ throwback of Adventism gone rogue. Only 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide for over 100 years of preaching and that’s it? Some Good News! They’re selling but nobody (and I mean nobody) is buying into this fantastic delusional nonsense anymore. Now compare that figure to the Roman Catholics 1.27 billion members which is about half of all Christians. Of course it took over 1900 years to get there but there really is no comparison.

            Yep, I agree “JW’s are nobody” and will continue to be until the governments destroy them by taxation or fines. It’s déjà vu all over again! (Yogi Berra) The ‘thousand year Reich’ is crumbling and delusion reigns supreme in the Bunker (Wallkill, NY). What wonder weapons Wunderwaffe (read: New Light) will the Faithful and Discreet Slave (Fuhrer) come up with to turn the fortunes of the Reich around? More overlapping generations nonsense perhaps? How about New Light on the ‘start of the great tribulation’ is at hand sooner than we expected?
            More bunker videos at the convention?

            Let’s all wait and see how this plays out.

  5. Ccc says:

    I have tried to send this story to my local newspaper and news outlet along with a few other reporters in the US…not one reply. Disappointing.

  6. Meredith J says:

    @ Ricardo, I left 15 years ago when I found out about the bad policies the Watchtower was engaging in with pedophiles and after realising that I could not witness to strangers inviting them to the meetings, there was no choice but to leave. I just wanted to die or vomit or both. It felt really unnatural as I knew that I was going out on a limb. My husband left a couple of weeks before me and then I followed deeply distressed.

    It was only a year ago after hearing about a Jewish boy who had a near death experience that it got me reading my Bible once again as I realised that God had not forsaken his promise to rid the world of wickedness and that His timetable was still on time. The world was ticking away like a timebomb and I started reading my bible again with renewed interest. This boy foretold the future according what was shown him.

    Turns out now that if you search the net, there are so many Christian groups now who believe this. Jehovah’s Witnesses have nothing new to offer because I believe that they are the fake Christians who were allowed to grow with the true Christians in Jesus parable about the wheat and the weeds. Remember it was the devil who sowed the weeds there that was so hard to tell if it was wheat, when it was a weed. There is your answer. Stay away from any religion that’s origin is suspect like the Watchtower because chances are that it is a creation of the devil just as Jesus foretold. It is the time be awake and be very cautious as to who we worship I feel. We are living in very difficult times and we each have to manage our own lives. My advice is to ditch their Bible. It is missing stuff that the old bibles kept in them and changes things. And keep praying. God speaks to us with his Word and we are able to speak to him in prayer. He is still with you wanting to comfort you and draw close to you. Finding like minded people is important too, but if you cannot find them, you still have God and the Bible for comfort. That is what I think anyway.

    • messenger says:

      I’m glad you came back Meredith!!! The future for us is not too far away now.

      • Meredith J says:

        Thanks messenger. So am I glad to have come back to Jesus after feeling I had been flung out so far. After all I have heard it said that Watchtower turns us over to Satan and I believe they did with me anyway. Funny though, after about two weeks of non Watchtower interference, the brainwashing comes off.

        If you are looking at the world now, and follow the events taking place, I find it amazing that people do not link this to Bible prophecy. To be specific, when I saw Donald Trump win that election, I knew it was on between good and bad. To know that Jesus is steering the ship is awesome, but he wants his people (those who love him), whoever they may be to fight for him at this time. And it is not far away I know. Anyway, thanks messenger, that is encouraging for me.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Meredith,
      Thanks for those thoughts. What a confusing time to be a Witness! How to go preaching to bring someone in to experience the pain we have? When we see behind the curtain of this organization, the motivation to tell others is destroyed.

      Why should it be like this? The way the spiritual paradise is painted from the platform sounds really great. Why can’t they just practice what they preach? Yet it’s the leaders who are the worst!

      I shake my head and say, “What a pity. It could be so good.” I think the principles taught by Christ are very beneficial. I wish we were taught how to be good Christians without the rot of how to be good Witnesses.

      • outandabout says:

        Just wondering about the excellent principles taught by excellent but atheist parents, Ricardo. In fact, they’re every bit as ‘good’ as you and while you’re in Church, they’re out there helping the sick and poor…..are they to be discarded?
        So in actual fact, it’s all about kissing butt, right?… not about deeds. Doesn’t matter what you do, if you don’t kiss butt, you’re toast.
        Cheers.

        • Ricardo says:

          @outandabout,
          By living in different cultures and comparing them, I have found it advantageous to adopt some principles and to drop others. From my observations of Christian, Buddhist and Muslim cultures, there are appealing principles in each. Something I saw advantageous amongst the Chinese was an emphasis put on stable families, a principle that used to be strong in the West, but as Christianity has eroded and atheism has come to the fore, this principle has been passed by.

          In fact, many features I admired in these other cultures used to be features of our Western culture, and I realized that the Western way of looking at things was based on Bible principles. One Asian man said to me after listening to me discuss my beliefs with some Mormon missionaries, “You know what is different between us and you Westerners? You can agree to disagree, while we can’t.” I found this statement to be generally true, and I concluded that Westerners do not emphasise loss of face as much as Asians do due to the Bible’s effect on our culture, to treat others like we want to be treated.

          While many holes can be poked in the history of Western nations not following the good principles in practice, the fact is still there that there are many good principles in our Western culture.

          However, these are starting to disappear. Western civilization is collapsing, largely due to a rejection of our religious principles. Drunkedness, drug taking, hedonistic lifestyles, unstable family life, unruly schools. These are not the result of people following Bible principles, but people who have forgotten God or even hate God, the results of an atheistic world.

          Personally, there is little I have found to respect among atheistic principles, thus my failure to mention them, as you noticed.

          However, while deciding myself that atheistic principles are of no benefit to me, I respect the Western cultural principle of agreeing to disagree. Thus, if atheistic principles somehow float your boat, then you are more than welcome to accept them as your leading life guidelines.

    • Meredith J says:

      Yes, news.com.au is a mainstream news website. It is pretty popular. Could be the start.

  7. Ted says:

    Not wishing any disrespect, but while some are waiting for their God
    to fix his universe, it’s real people through human endeavour who are
    gradually making this world a better and happier place to live.

    I would not like to return to to the conditions that pertained in my
    childhood, ( early 30s). People , especially children were dying from
    diseases that have now been eradicated or are easily treated.
    Pneumonia was one of the big killers in those days, my own cousin,
    a young girl of 16 died from it. 4 months later sulfa drugs that could
    have saved her life became available, But thankfully many thousands
    of lives were subsequently saved, some who still may be walking
    around today. —>

    The life saving drugs were developed by a German chemist,
    Paul Ehrlich after 30 years of painstaking research ( where was he
    looking for his answers I wonder ? )

    Infant deaths were commonplace. Again I remember being taken to
    the morticians to see the body of a cousin, a little boy just a few weeks
    old. It’s startlingly different now though, in well off countries infant
    mortality is less than 1% of population. Globally since 1990, the
    incidence of these tragedies has been halved, because of people who
    care. Progress is gradual, steady, and so gets overlooked.

    So what is the God solution to to humanities problems? ( when he
    decides to act ) — Wholesale slaughter of the wicked, which
    ironically could include some who have devoted their lives to
    to improving the lot of others. But do not believe in him.

    Sorry for being off topic, I just got the urge.

    • Mark Scott says:

      Ted I could not have put this better myself,great points.How people can’t see this point of view and still believe in a LOVING God is beyond me.But of course that’s just my opinion.To me being a jw was a learning experience,which I now take the positive from,an eye opener to how ridiculous the bible is.I personally find it hard to understand how anyone continues religiously with some kind of deity coming out that cult jws especially,and breaking away taking parts of their doctrine,that they just want to keep for their own comfort I suppose.But of course it’s their faith I suppose,but faith as I have often said is not a reality.

    • Tara. says:

      My granddaughter was born at 24 weeks and lb 4oz. If her Daddy had not been df’d his little girl would be dead. However, after heart surgery and a number of blood transfusions she is now approaching her first birthday. I count my blessings I have this little one to love and hold. A few months back a sister spoke to me while she was in field service and said ‘Satan has been having a real go at you’. I told her ‘I don’t see it that way, I count my blessings because she is alive and wonderful’. I got a dirty look from her because I didn’t fall into the trap of blaming everything bad on Satan. We are blessed that doctors and nurses have the ability to keep these tiny ones alive.

    • Meredith J says:

      Now Ted, why would you think that someone who is saving lives is doing something bad for the human race? Watchtower fed us so much rubbish that made us not appreciate goodness when we saw it. Do you honestly think that God doesn’t notice when someone does something good for someone else that it goes unnoticed? Watchtower taught us to hate anyone who was not baptised, going out from door to door and attending meetings. I mean really? Do you honestly believe that that is the measure of someone’s worth?

      But Jesus made it clear that he would return and sort people out, the sheep and the goats. His sheep were those who had a relationship with him, who loved him, who appreciated that he laid down his life for them and he did do it. He didn’t just say he would do it. We know that he did it. This fact would make his sheep interested in what he was going to do next, to long for his showing up again. It’s better to be a sheep than a goat. Goats do Satan’s will and despise Jesus. They want the world to go bad. Who wants to be part of that?

  8. Lynaire Williams says:

    @ Ted,now you have given me the urge too. Though not an Atheist my self. I do admire those that are. Why? because they don’t spend their time sitting on a fence, squeezing every last word out of the bible. Instead they are clear headed, focused and have an inbuilt desire to further man kind.( No baggage, so to speak.) And they have and will continue to do so.
    I agree that no higher reality is going to step in and “fix” everything we humans have created, simply because we have forgotten who we are.
    We are not lowly, puny,dumb,evil or sheeple doomed to forever follow someone else’s ideas of Truth. In reality we are far from that and quite able to ” fix it “ourselves, with a lot of effort of course.
    Most Atheists, I believe, are well aware of this and so show themselves to have a wisdom needed on this Earth.
    Likewise, we need the religious, the believers, the fanatic, the calm and peaceful. We are all equal and we need them right in our faces, because we created them and all have their purpose. We just have to figure out how to unite them.

  9. messenger says:

    Let’s speak logically gentlemen. A person believing in and living their life for God has absolutely nothing to do with whether are not that person contributes to making the world better for folks to live in right now, nor does it correlate with a person’s education level. The two points have nothing more in common than if someone likes baseball, so because of that he must not contribute to the betterment of humanity (all he must do is play baseball). As an example, I live for God, have university degrees, and help about a thousand people a week to have better lives. The last two points are related in that a certain type of degree is a prerequisite to beginning my line of work. The first point is not related to the final two in any way whatsoever. To suggest it is does not logically add up. It makes no sense at all. And to suggest that makes you look like people who are fishing and grasping onto unrelated ideas in an attempt to smear those who don’t agree with your point of view. From where I stand your view is illogical for the reasons presented in the following paragraph.

    It’s impossible to prove God does not exist, either scientifically or using any other means mankind has. Suggesting that it can be proven, is like suggesting something else in the invisible dimensions that scientists believe exists can be disproven. Logically we should all agree that without experience in any given area any person is groping in the dark and working with assumptions. I understand you have certain beliefs based on your past religious affiliation. But remember that just about all of us agree that many of those were false ideas. Therefore those ideas have no relevance to your rather broad claim. At least to me they don’t.

    Two thoughts:
    Idea #1. God exists. Can be proven to some people through personal experiences. Those eyewitness testimonies are accepted by others. Also, some points in the writings of eyewitness are accepted as proof of God by believers, such as the first page of Genesis that outlines the geological development of Earth along with a basic sequential description of the arrival of life forms thousands of years before scientists used paleontology and other methods to learn that information.

    Idea #2 God does not exist. How are you going to prove that? Surely not with opinions based on your belief about what someone else thinks,or how some people acted are you? What proof do you have God does not exist, if any at all? If none, then to talk about those as deluded that believe in God suggests you perhaps have a greater delusion. At least they have some evidence, even if you just accept that they have eyewitness testimony they believe in. Do you have any evidence for your side? Or is it just your belief, because of a feeling you have?

    • Fooledmeonce says:

      I’ve got to say Messanger, I can’t follow your line/s of reasoning at all. I know that you believe in God and then you’ve totally lost me. You probably have some points in your mind but they are not coming across at all.
      (BTW, I do believe in spirits/God)

      • outandabout says:

        What’s happening, messenger, is that there’s no finer sport than stirring up a believer. I worked with one for years and we had great fun. Nothing serious and besides, you can’t beat a bit of blood on the kitchen walls now and again. Won’t be long and we can all get side by side again and tearing down the WT brick by brick.
        Now where were we……scientific facts in the bible? Doesn’t it say in Job that the heavens are supported by pillars?
        Did you know that when a star explodes it sends forth into space everything that’s required to make you and I and everything around us. The universe is getting seeded all the time and those seeds just need the right conditions to germinate. That’s the hard part.

      • messenger says:

        Fooledmeonce,
        To fully understand comments in my first post read all the post starting with Ted’s that proceed it. I wrote a related post below here, that does not address all issues raised in the first.

        best wishes!

    • Randy Galbraith says:

      Hi Messenger,

      “Idea #1. God exists. Can be proven to some people through personal experiences. Those eyewitness testimonies are accepted by others.”

      Idea #1 explains why people believe God exists. However such eyewitness testimony can be misleading and does not therefore prove God exists, anymore than the testimony of R. L. Hubbard prove thetans exist.

      “Idea #2 God does not exist. How are you going to prove that? Surely not with opinions based on your belief about what someone else thinks,or how some people acted are you?”

      This statement appears to conflict with idea #1. In idea #1 you suggest “eyewitness testimony” is acceptable, but the related idea of what “someone else thinks” is rejected in idea #2.

      Nonetheless, how does one prove God does not exist? The answer I would give is: proving the non-existence of anything may be logically impossible. Betrand Russell famously addressed this problem in 1952 his “cosmic teacup” illustration. If one insisted there was a teacup in orbit somewhere between Earth and Mars could it be proven not to exist?

      There is a limit to what we can and cannot know. If one makes extraordinary claims, such as God exists and he has the form of an elephant, such as the Hindu God Ganesha, how far could we get trying to prove such a God does not exist? There is no logical way to prove such claims as false and that makes the claim unscientific. If there is no way, even in theory, to show a claim is false, then we will endlessly wind up chasing ideas without ever getting an answer.

      Just because a claim cannot be addressed by science does not mean it is untrue. It is possible God exists, but in such a way as being beyond our ability to measure. And certainly we know many people believe Ganesha, thetans and God exists, and to them these ideas have power and meaning.

      What science deal in is falsifiable claims that address measurable features of the natural world. Even in areas where knowledge is currently incomplete, such as string theory, dark matter and dark energy, these items are postulated due to real-world observations, backed up by mathematical calculations. Thoughts about God tend to be bigger than that. The theory of gravity is invoked to explain why things fall to the ground and travel in orbits. Unlike God thoughts though, the theory of gravity does not comment on how one should dress or what day of the week is sacred. Thus you’ll notice folks invoke the idea of God to resolve some unknown aspect of nature, such as how life or the universe began, but then fairly quickly imply that God has views such as whether or not one should keep or remove the foreskin of the penis.

      Such a God may exist and he/she/it may indeed feel Saturday is sacred, but it is just as possible all of this is merely the imagination of what someone else thinks.

      Regards,
      -Randy

      • Jennifer says:

        Hi Randy,
        I just want to say, I really enjoyed your comments.
        I was getting hot under the collar reading the
        earlier debates & hoped somebody would say
        something profound. Thankyou for doing just
        that.
        I would also like to say a big thankyou to everyone
        at jwsurvey & jwfacts for all that I have learnt in
        such a short time. Even though I had ‘faded’ some
        years previously, last November I took the plunge
        & googled Jehovah’s Witnesses. Even now I
        cannot understand the trepidation I felt doing
        such a small thing.
        Since then my brain has been turned upside
        down, inside out. I am so relieved to find out that
        you are all out there & my problems are not unique
        to me.
        I am in Australia & had read some of the transcripts from the ARC on their website. At the
        time I was surprised & disappointed at how
        ineffectual the elders & T. Obrien were. I expected
        much, much more.
        Thankyou for listening, this is my first post on the
        internet, please forgive any social gaffes I may
        have made.
        Regards Jennifer

        • Winston Smith says:

          @Randy
          Impeccable logic and reasoning

          @Jennifer
          Welcome to our group of rational thinkers. Hope to hear from you again in the future. It took me quite a while of just “lurking” on the site before I gathered the courage to post something. Now I’m a regular commenter.

          WS

          • Randy Galbraith says:

            Hi Jennifer & Winston,

            Thanks so much for the kind words. Indeed, very true. We were taught to be so fearful of those who left the faith and yet all we find is just normal people.

            Within the faith, so much emphasis was placed on there being no divisions and everyone having harmony of thought (1 Cor 1:10). Here in the real world people do have different thoughts about such things as the existence of God. And they have the freedom to express those views.

            Regards,
            -Randy

      • messenger says:

        Erroneous thoughts Randy. In my statement the fact that outandabout could not prove his claim was already mentioned…thus the reason why he made a stupid assertion.

        Because of your limited experience, which appears to include your lack of scriptural knowledge you illogically attempt to refute my claim one, with your illogical thoughts. I never claimed God’s existence is proven to you, as you may have presumed because that line of thinking would be required to make your statements logical.

        Instead your statements are illogical. Read the Bible, you may understand. If after that you believe Bible characters such as Peter, Paul, and dozens of others did not receive proof that God exists…I can’t help you. And I don’t mean I can’t help you to believe in God, I mean I can’t take time to help you reason. My initial claim is that some person’s were given proof as eyewitnesses. I never claimed you did.

        Could have answered this false reasoning sooner, but I don’t usually go back to old posts.

        Not doing a spell check on this one

        • Winston Smith says:

          Ad hominem attack messenger? Because he disagrees with you, Randy has limited experience, his thoughts are illogical, outandabout’s assertions are stupid?

          Take a lesson from the Watchtower. Your argumentation is steeped in rhetorical fallacy. This is obviously a belief that is near and dear to you, therefore your emotions get in the way of logical argument. You will not win over those who are aware of the signs of rhetorical fallacy. I suggest you become more aware of this type of argument: https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/rhetorical-fallacy.php

          And I fully expect a full tongue lashing comment from you in response for even questioning your reasoning.

          WS

        • Caroline says:

          messenger, there are no first hand accounts of Jesus’ miracles and Paul’s writings came first before the gospels. That fact is easily provable because Paul says nothing at all about all the so-called miracles of Jesus. The Christian religion is actually based on Paul’s writings.

          If you read the gospels side by side, you will see that they all have different accounts of Jesus life and death. Most of us read the gospels by themselves but if you read those accounts side by side, you will see that the gospels are not eye witness accounts at all but written years and years later, which makes them highly unreliable and most likely legends about a man named Jesus that grew and grew.

          Even if Jesus’ miracles actually did occur, that doesn’t prove in God’s creating the heavens and the earth.

          We were taught that Jehovah is invisible and so because I can not picture an invisible being creating all the heavens and the earth and all the angels etc. out of absolutely nothing, that makes me an atheist but you seem to think that because it is so unlikely that everything on the earth and heavens came from a one celled organism, then the obvious answer has to be “god” but I also don’t believe that everything on the earth and heavens came from a one-celled organism but I don’t lose sleep over how we got here and I don’t believe that an invisible being created everything on the earth and the heavens out of nothing either.

          We are at an impasse.

          What I was taught was that to believe in that God of the Bible is beyond my understanding. Is that also not your understanding?

          Why am I supposed to believe that, just because somebody told me that? Why am I not supposed to ask for at least some kind of evidence that God exists and created everything besides people’s “personal” experiences?

          People of all religions claim to have their personal relationship with a god but they also have personal relationships with characters they read about in their favorite books too that don’t actually exist.

          They get good feelings from the coffee they drink too but does that prove there is an invisible god that created everything on the earth and the heavens.

          All an atheist is is somebody who doesn’t believe in things without some kind of evidence that that thing or person exists. They don’t just take other people’s word for it or their claim of that person’s existence or their good feelings. None of those things prove that there is a god that created everything in the heavens or the earth.

          None of us know how we got here and just coming up with the simple answer “God did it” helps people’s brain to stop worrying about it so they can go to sleep at night and it gives them a good feeling that they have a “friend” who listens to them and is on their side and wants the best in life for them and forgives them when they err. We all need that and I don’t take that away from them. It also helps people when they are facing death or when they lose a loved one in death and I don’t take that away from them either.

          The problem is when believers insist that their god exists and berate those who want evidence before believing it and that is what you do.

          If I was going to believe in a god, I certainly would not believe in the god of the Hebrew Bible. Just because the Hebrew Bible says to worship him over and over again, is not the reason I would worship that god.

          If I was going to worship a god, the god of the Greek scriptures would be my first choice, not the god of the Hebrew Scriptures, which is the god that Watchtower chose to worship.

          The Watchtower chose the name “Jehovah” Witnesses before the tablets were discovered in Ugarit in 1929 when ancient tablets were discovered and those tablets tell about the ancient gods of Canaan and those tablets show that the Bible is based on those Canaanite gods, including the Canaanite name Yahweh.

          Most religions had already been established by that time and so the Watchtower could not go back. They chose the name of an ancient Canaanite god and that is the god you are worshipping.

          • Caroline says:

            messenger, I have been reading some of your past posts and you said you have given jobs to thousands of people and you have college degrees. What do you do where you have so much time on your hands to comment on here so often?

          • Winston Smith says:

            @Caroline,
            I appreciate your comments and detailed research. I consider myself a deist, so I do believe in a creator. But I respect your right to not believe in a creator. That’s what messenger is missing: that respect that everyone deserves in making their own decisions about their beliefs. While he sees the flaws in the teachings of Watchtower, he is still steeped in attitude they foster: one of superiority, pride, and arrogance. I was there at one time too, when I was still endocrinated, so I understand where he is coming from.

            WS

        • Randy Galbraith says:

          Hi Messenger,

          No worries on time to respond and lack of spell check. Only after I posted did I see someone else had pointed out Bertrand Russell’s teapot illustration.

          “Read the Bible, you may understand. If after that you believe Bible characters such as Peter, Paul, and dozens of others did not receive proof that God exists…I can’t help you.”

          For what it is worth, I’ve read the Bible several times. NWT three times, The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, The Brick Bible (A Bible for kids) and I’m now reading the NIV — up to Judges now. I’ve also read the Quran and The Book of Mormon.

          So I think there is a point we can agree on — that we both feel there is value in reading the Bible. I often recommend to my friends that they do that at least once.

          The most basic problem though is neither you nor I can go beyond what is recorded of these events. However, from studying the brain, we can learn how memory works. By interviewing folks recall around significant events such as 9/11 can help us understand how reliable eyewitness testimony actually is. A fairly important thing considering such can be used in court. In short, eyewitness testimony is not that reliable.

          If we look at Paul’s conversion you’ll notice something interesting. According to the account Saul, as Paul was then known, hears a voice say, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting”. However notice what author of Acts, assumed to be Luke, says of those with Saul, “they heard the sound but did not see anyone” (Acts 9:3-9).

          Thus within the account itself, it is tentative about what exactly happened. What sort of person was Paul? By his own admission he was “extremely zealous” religious person (Gal 1:13, 14). In my experience highly religious folks are often willing to relate accounts of how God is interacting with them and how much confidence they have in how real he is to them. And if you ask them to consider that God might not exist and act accordingly they are quite unwilling.

          The other general thing you’ll notice about these Bible accounts is, as you move back in time, the acts of God get larger and less localized. For Paul the event happens on the road to Damascus. For Moses the Red Sea splits but for Noah the entire world is flooded.

          In the end though, I’m not sure how much we should try to help someone one see that God exists or that he doesn’t. The experience of God can be highly personal. The problem is when someone stands up and asserts they speak for God. The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses do just that. Thus for those who believe in Jehovah, they may conclude that it is not right to hug their wife during prayer, not due to personal beliefs about Jehovah, but because of what they’ve been taught.

          It is such follow-the-leader play that we can wind up hurting ourselves and others.

          Cheers,
          -Randy

  10. messenger says:

    @ Fooledmeonce and outandabout

    My buddy outandabout, Im not stirred up. Don’t know why you got that opinion. But your reference to the Bible is a side step to presenting the info I asked for. My suggested request was that some of you atheist take a LOGICAL position and present whatever proof you have that God does not exist, since you at times deride those who believe. Because if you have no proof at all than your reference to believers as being deluded is a foolish one, from where I sit.

    You cannot prove God does not exist by referencing the Bible. There’s no logic to that approach. What actual evidence do you have, if any?

    I very seriously doubt you’ll find any, but if you do, let’s have it. To write a term paper in college I read two, or three (can’t remember how many now) books on atheism. I do remember that at least one of those stated, “The strongest proof we have that God does not exist is the abundance of extreme pain and suffering in the world.” Is that your best shot at it also outandabout? Because that author(s) claimed to be speaking for atheist community. That’s no proof at all. Let’s take that idea to an extreme position in an analogy: The strongest evidence we have that Adolf Hitler didn’t exist is the holocaust-the extreme pain and suffering of the Jews during WWII. Does that prove he didn’t exist? NO! I’m not suggesting God is like Hitler. What I’m saying is that if that’s you’re best reason for your belief, it uses infantile logic. Its no more than complaining I don’t like God because of the condition I’m in. Or more accurately stating these bad conditions prove he does not exist. What facts do the atheist have? Do you know? I don’t remember any facts from my research. True it has been a while. But I was a Witness when I researched the topic, and any facts on the subject would have received my attention. Personal opinions about the subject carry no weight with me.

    Fooledmeonce, maybe if you didn’t understand points in my first post, you might understand points in this post. The ideas are similar. Simply PROVE God does not exist, or, according to my opinion, critiquing believers carries absolutely no weight and makes you appear as though you are attempting to reassure each other because of an emotional need. If so, what would that need be?

    Always nice talking to you outandabout. And call on your other atheist buddies here to come up with some facts, if they can, to prove your side. Remember, opinions don’t support logical arguments; facts only please on God does NOT exist; not irrelevant side points, such as comments on the Bible. Please no crying about how bad things are or how people can help themselves. I’d just assume you had nothing from reading those types of comments, and I’d suspect side-stepping again. Oh, I also took an anthropology course, and I wouldn’t consider information on the evolutionary theory as proving God does or does not exist. That strategy is just another side step. It does not address the issue of God’s existence with any sound arguments. Its a let me tell you about this over here approach, because I have no real evidence to make my argument. Your best bet might be to look into dark energy, dark matter, or multi-dimensional universe theory. I don’t think that will help you. But honestly I can’t think of anything that might. At least those theories attempt to discover things that cannot be seen. And in unseen dimensions is where believers claim God is.

    • Winston Smith says:

      I don’t have time to get too deep into this line of reasoning, but the entire debate about whether there is or is not a God is futile. Something based on faith cannot be proven by logic. Per scripture, “Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists” (ISV). Something that cannot be seen or detected is impossible to prove through rational deduction.

      Bertrand Russell’s Teapot Analogy illustrates “that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.” Therefore telling the Atheist that they must disprove God’s existence is poor argumentation from a rational and scientific viewpoint.

      What it comes down to is that based on your personal experience, you will choose to either believe or disbelieve.

      As a side point, it is ironic how much the JW organization does that actually promotes atheism.

      WS

      • messenger says:

        Mr. Russell’s assertion is just his opinion that doesn’t relate to our discussion. Remember, you jumped into an argument I was making that it is foolish for any atheist to declare that believers are delusional. That reason is because atheist cannot prove God’s nonexistence. And they have no evidence to support their position. My assertion was that an atheist taking that position is delusional, fooling himself, as if he CAN prove his side. But he can’t. So its not a question of who the burden of proof lies on. If you assert there is no God the burden of proof lies on you.

        Mr. Russell’s assertion works on either side making their claim, or its not valid. Perhaps only in his mind…an illogical assertion. Getting big names who make illogical assertions is no proof.

        The fact is no one has to prove anything. Not us, not God. We are all free agents exercising our will.

        I revert back to my original position which is that believers have evidence-eyewitness testimony. Non-believers only have diversionary tactics that attempt to obscure the issue being considered. Evolution, religion, or anything I see you presenting cannot prove God’s nonexistence. Those are not even circumstantial evidence.

        I sat as the 12th juror in a murder case that was won by presenting circumstantial evidence. All of the evidence related to the defendant’s behavior, not someone else’s behavior.

        • Winston Smith says:

          @messenger
          I agree that the atheist cannot prove God’s nonexistence. But will you concede that the believer can neither prove his existence?

          I happen to believe in God, but I concede that is a matter of choice, of free will, of faith, and a basis of the sum total of my experiences. It is not a scientific deduction. It is of course wrong for atheists to call us delusional for believing in God, but it is likewise wrong for us to condemn them for their disbelief (Matt 7:1,2, & 12).

          WS

          • messenger says:

            WS

            I’ve never condemned anyone on this site. If I was going to do that I would have done so a long time ago. My harshest comments were against WT. But I’m not the judge. Even the gb, I won’t judge as condemned, because I don’t know what Christ will do with them.

            Like others here I point out some positions, not all, I feel are incorrect. What others choose to do with my opinions is their business.

            No, I won’t concede that God’s existence cannot be proven. As stated, a lot more than eyewitness testimony exists, but that is part of the evidence. I will concede various degrees of evidence are provided by God to different people. I suspect he does that to fulfill his purposes, not to keep people in the dark. I also believe God has given all people the privilege of choice, and that we should not persecute or abuse them unless they use their choice to hurt other individuals or society as a whole. Like others here I believe WT is using its choice to harm others. One of the bad things I believe it did was cause us to believe in it, and didn’t stick with Christ. And when the bubble burst in our eyes, some of us stopped believing in God, having associated those former incorrect beliefs with God and Christ. From my point of view that’s the worst thing it has done.

      • messenger says:

        WS,
        When Christ contacted Paul, was it logical to believe in Christ as a supernatural being, or logical NOT to believe in what he saw? The obvious answer is it would have been illogical not to believe in that situation as a supernatural contact. And foolish for him to require the scientific testing method for proof. The same holds true with all other Bible characters that had similar experiences.

        Have you realized the Bible stories claim those types of supernatural contacts occurred throughout recorded history. People continue to testify to such occurrences today. Are you saying eyewitness testimony does not prove things? When you see a car wreck, do you believe further evidence is required for you to KNOW it happened?

        The scientific method is one of the most basic methods of verification. Its so basic we all used it as infants before we could talk. The word science does not make it the end all be all. It’s only one method to verify. Even though we used that scientific method since we could stretch out our short arm and hit something, see it move, giggle, then hit it again to see if it moved again (the scientific method), all of us learned and verified much more information through observation. We still do. We always will. We didn’t use the scientific method to know we shouldn’t step in front of a rolling car did we?

        So, think again if you want to hold to that belief that God has not proven his existence. It might be more accurate to state he hasn’t proven it to you. To thousands of others he has proven it.

        What is absolutely clear is the atheists point of view has not been proven to one person. So, for those to speak of people on the other side as being deluded is a form of self-delusion on their part.

        • Winston Smith says:

          @messenger
          I disagree on your assessment of the revelation to the apostle Paul. The logical thing, that which fits with our experiences in the natural world, is to believe that Paul was dreaming, hallucinating, or lying. All of these are easier to believe than the idea that a supernatural being contacted him. Believing his so-called eye witness account requires a leap of faith, not logic.

          In my opinion, your statements about the basics of the scientific method erode your thesis statement. You mention something we touch moves and every time we take an action on our part it has the same reaction. It’s repeatable, testable, and observable both by ourselves and others. When you mention a supernatural contact or vision that someone has, it is not testable scientifically. It cannot be repeated by the person or by others. That’s how most miraculous occurences transpire. They are one time events usually beheld by only one observer, not testable, not repeatable. When a group seemingly observes a supernatural event, they often don’t even agree to what happened, such in the Bible where God was reported to have spoken, but many interpreted it as simply being thunder.

          Allow me to supply a statement of my personal belief system as it may seem that I am arguing from both sides of the aisle. I consider myself a Christian Deist. That places me in the middle ground between what I’d call a true believer such as yourself and an outright agnostic or atheist. I believe in a higher power, God if you will, and I also believe in the value of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Rather than providing a long list of what Deists believe, it is easier to direct you to additional information online: http://christiandeism.com. It should also be noted that there is no one codified system of beliefs for Deism. It is a much more personal belief system than typical mainstream religions.

          WS

        • messenger says:

          WS
          When you refer to Paul’s experience you refer to your acceptance of it based on your limited knowledge. You don’t consider it based upon all knowledge, most of which you are ignorant of. Paul was an eyewitness. He did not say he had a dream, as you suggest, because of your limited experience, and so relate to a dream. Thousands of people have had and are having supernatural experiences. Your belief, or nonbelief, has nothing to do with them experiencing those events, nor does it imply their being delusional, or that they must be having experiences in the way you say it must be based on you own limited knowledge. I do agree that another person believing in such an experience requires a leap of faith for them. And it’s fortunate for us that these experiences that others have, and have had, are not the only things God uses to draw ones to him.

          Your previous statement about the meaning of faith, per the Bible, was incorrect. That which is waited on or hoped for is not the existence of God, referred to in the scripture you quoted. The things that are referred to as hoped for in that scripture include the fulfillment of God’s promises. Someone that doubts God’s existence has no faith.

          My point to outandabout is that eyewitness testimony exists on my side (belief), none of that on his side, nor does he have any other proof on his side.

          My reference to the scientific method does not erode my thesis statement, which basically was FOR A PERSON TO REFER TO BELIVERS AS DELUSIONAL IS RIDICULOUS. I only referenced the scientific testing method because these folks seem to suggest it is the be all end all, when in fact we all used that method since before we could talk. Also for you to believe my statement about that even erodes the thesis you thought was presented is not logical. Many methods exist to reach logical conclusions, not just one as my writings stated. Of course you cannot duplicate a supernatural experience, because God’s not going to bow to people like that. He provides evidence sufficient to those who desire to follow.

      • messenger says:

        WS

        Mr. B Russell’s point only has any ethical validity if he applies the same idea to his side. Believers are under no obligation to prove anything.

        • Winston Smith says:

          @messanger,
          I would argue that both the believer and the atheist are obligated to prove the logic behind their statements if they want them to be accepted as factual (or at least feasible) by the other side. Otherwise, each side must admit that their belief system is based on personal perception and personal faith rather than fact.

          WS

          • messenger says:

            WS

            The point of the discussion was not to prove my side. It was not to prove does God exist. That was not the point of discussion when you entered the conversation. I threw the challenge out to him, to prove his side because of his ridiculous comments. I didn’t have to prove God exists in this conversation, as that was not the point of it. And no Christian is obligated to prove that to anyone.

            My statement, and the point under consideration was the other side’s (outandabout’s and others like him) who call believers in God delusional.
            They make that claim in arrogance and ignorance which points to their own delusional state.

            I believe outandabout admitted, by borrowing Mr. B Russell’s comment, that he cannot prove his side. If he could have there would have been no reason for him to attempt to shift the burden of proof. Something that I’m not required to do in considering whether his statement makes any sense.

            Logically the burden of proof rests on him if he takes the position the other side is delusional, when he cannot back up his belief in God’s nonexistence, with anything other than an emotional reason (I don’t like God). As previously stated, I don’t seek to prove anything to him, but his own delusionary comment, if he accepts the logic in my argument.

          • Winston Smith says:

            @messenger
            Thank you for all your replies. I think we can agree on some points and agree to disagree on others. The one primary thing that we can agree on is that Watchtower has done damage to the lives and faith of millions of people.

            WS

  11. outandabout says:

    I’m off to work, messenger, so I’ll get to you at a later date. You’ve really asked for it this time! In the meantime, just accept that I’m right and you’re wrong.
    But before I go, notice how Spinks and O’toole swore on the bible and yet when they quoted scripture as evidence, they may as well have recited a nursery rhyme for all the good it did. When push comes to shove, even the highest courts in the land don’t accept the bible as evidence of anything. Plus, it is possible to convict someone of murder without a body being found if the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. In other words, we use our common sense with the evidence available and calculate the probabilities.

    • messenger says:

      I’m laughing again outandabout. I hope you’re not referring to anything having to do with the Bible as a type of factual evidence to support your position. Facts only please that are on topic. Your claim again is that God does NOT exist. A disbelief in the Bible produces no facts that can verify your claim. Attacking the opposite opinion produces no verification for your position, unless you can prove your point with verifiable evidence-no opinions please. Quite funny to me your scientists can’t do it, though some of them quack about it. Take that position and cough up the goods. Be the first one to prove it. As the saying goes —- or get off the pot. Verification please. Without facts you’re left holding opinion only, a WT tactic to slyly insert your opinion or the opinions of others as factual evidence because, in at least WT’s case, I SAID IT. I think most of these lovely people on this site are beyond giving credence to that approach. So, if you’ve got any facts, let’s hear them. Of course you can always change the topic because I like to get a good laugh here sometimes. Inform me outandabout. Please do so. If you have no evidence call on your friends here for HELP!

      I always like talking to you buddy, but when you can’t come through just admit it. Hey I love you buddy either way!!! Best wishes outandabout. You’re one the dudes that make this site what it is, entertainment while exposing WT.

  12. Ted says:

    @Meredith J, Please forgive me Meredith if my comments
    gave the wrong impression. I am not claiming that people
    who devote themselves to saving lives are doing something
    bad. In fact very much to the contrary.

    My thought was, that some selfless, altruistic people who
    devote their lives to the service of mankind may not believe
    in the existence of God. And since, according to the Bible
    faith in God and acknowledging his existence is a vital
    pre- requisite to gaining eternal life. —>

    This would mean that when God destroys the wicked,
    These good atheists would also lose out. They would
    be classed as wicked, not deserving of life. Heb, 11:6.

    Best wishes, Ted.

    • Meredith J says:

      @ Ted. Don’t worry Ted. I did not think the worst of you believe me. I knew what you were getting at. I meant that the Witness rules are so cruel and wrong. I don’t know how God thinks of course. None of us do. I just know that He is not like the one we learned about in Witness Land who they tried to convince us of a heartless nasty god. They ingrained that false picture into our hearts. It takes some effort to get it out. The picture should be of Jesus as he is the exact representation of God.

      Anyway, thank you Ted for apologising. No offence taken and I got what you meant. It probably just came out funny the way I said it too. After we leave it is so hard to think along different lines. Best wishes to you too Ted.

  13. Lynaire Williams says:

    Oh my! Boys, boys, A declaration of war! Ex JW’s, of all people, should realise how unhealthy it is to be so heavily invested in being the one who is “right”.
    We make our choices here by the extent of our experiences. They are real to us alone. People can yell, “proof, proof “all they like, it will always lead to a dead end street. Respect for other’s beliefs is the only solution.

    • Mark Scott says:

      Lynaire, does this mean respect for the jw organization as well?Is it possible to respect cults and their futile beliefs that are harmful?
      All religions are harmful.Its only ones that are classed as cults that are viewed as dangerous.Respect is very difficult to show to ones who believe that they are favoured by a higher being to another.Or one must live a life in a certain way to be accepted.Because at the end of the day it’s all about judging another human being,directly or indirectly.

      • messenger says:

        The Pharisee view Mark Scott, one of the reasons I’m here, and one of WT’s biggest lies.

        • Mark Scott says:

          How is that the Pharisee view messenger?It is totally the opposite.The pharisee as you know were extremely judgemental.This is my point,ALL religion is judgemental,like you,it provides rules from a deity that’s not proven,now you may say i’m being judgemental,but my point of you is in the route of science which progresses with evidence.So in this regard Respect is hard to show to someone who puts over a point of view that determines how their life is going to result in at the end of it.Whereas I will say to you maybe there is a God,no one knows,but scientifically it is evident that things like miracles for example and a lot of claims in supposedly God’s word the bible are not scientific logic.

          • messenger says:

            Maybe not scientific logic Mark Scott but its logic. The scientific testing and verifying procedure is a process, that’s ALL it is. You seem to imply that any truth not verified through that process is not logic. Not so.

            Its an extremely narrow view that believes experiments must be conducted on things to claim them as logical.

            Go to the ancient Greeks whose teachings are admired as defining forms of logical thought. Look for that scientific testing/verification process there. It doesn’t exist. There are many paths to discovering logic…many more than one (the scientific method). That thought may be claimed in ignorance, or used as a smokescreen to obscure truth found through other processes.

            Many paths to truth not one. How many times did you personally use the scientific method to experiment on things while you were in school. Let me guess. Never considering it a scientific method. Though you used that process many times, thousands of them, not realizing you were using that method, only because no one labeled it as scientific. The point is the method is so simple I’m surprised anyone would look to it as being special. The folks who labeled it labeled something people have always been doing. But is that the only way you learned truth? No!

      • messenger says:

        I was labeling description you gave in your last couple sentences as a Pharisee view Mark. I didn’t mean you were a Pharisee. I know my comment was abbreviate, and so it could be misunderstood.

    • messenger says:

      Debating belief does not mean disrespect Lynaire. Who learns that does not take on a completely new or adjusted belief? That’s what learning is, so let’s hear the evidence if any…As my sis twisted sister writes, we are not “panda lovers,” and I’ll add, or pansies. I’m not upset, I don’t think outandabout is upset. But maybe if he is and gets really mad it might help him come up with some good evidence instead of the typical God does not exist because mankind discovered something else, like a moth landing on a colored pole changed it’s and/or its offsprings’ wing color.

      • outandabout says:

        I don’t think I’ve ever said that god does not exist, messenger.
        But….you’ve just said it yourself…’God does not exist because mankind has found something else’. I couldn’t have said it better myself. What happened to Apollo? Zeus? Venus? Did man find something elseWhy did the Egyptians build the pyramids and why did they stop? What happened to Ra, Isis and Seth? Thousands of gods have come and gone, because…..well…I guess we moved on but at that time, those gods were just as real as yours and those people lived and died by them. Totally devout. What will our beliefs be in two thousands years when Christ still has not returned? Will we be looked back on as ignorant superstitious ancients the same as we look back now. Thousands of gods down, one to go. We’re nearly free. Not exactly the proof you require…. but which way do you think it’s trending? Do we need a panel of analysts on this one, or is it glaringly obvious?
        ‘I love you but if you don’t love me back I will kill you’ may appeal to some, but not me. No matter how good a persons deeds throughout their life is, if they don’t love god, they’re toast. If that’s justice, I’m Peter Pan. If god wants to appeal to us, why is he so unappealing? Gods bottom line is not about peace, love and justice. It’s about submission and control. Man controlling man through fear. The Bishop doesn’t sit on the right hand side of the King for nothing.
        So I suggest to you, messenger, maybe it’s not god you need but a damn good physco-analyst to help you get to the root of your desperate need to be a slave.
        If that doesn’t stir you up, nothing will, but really, this site has rules about this type of discussion.

        • messenger says:

          I didn’t know you never made that statement, but you did take that position before outandabout. Remember when I made that statement it was as a request for logical proof of its truthfulness, I never made it taking that position. I knew it was unprovable when I gave it to whoever would step up to answered the call. So, don’t sweat it.

          As far as proper topics, very many posts on this site have considered similar topics. None of my comments have ever been censored. I’m only aware of Cedar posting that he had censored someone else’s comment once, when that person asked what happened to it.

          When some people can present no logical evidence supporting a position they strongly believe in, then emotion is often a huge motivating factor in their acceptance of that position. Because of that some get upset when their strong assertions are challenged, and they revert to name calling, as a coping device.

          I thought you were more logical than that outandabout.

          “So I suggest to you, messenger, maybe it’s not god you need but a damn good physco-analyst to help you get to the root of your desperate need to be a slave.
          If that doesn’t stir you up, nothing will, but really, this site has rules about this type of discussion.” (outandabout)

          Comments such as this absolutely demolish your position outandabout. You just left all reason.

          • outandabout says:

            Exactly who is dodging questions, messenger? Please tell me why you think we stopped believing in the thousands of gods we once swore existed and what led us to such a belief? How did such thinking come about? Their must have been a beginning. A seed, if you like.

          • messenger says:

            outandabout

            Actually outandabout you stepped up like a man and admitted you weren’t presenting the evidence I required. The fact is no such evidence exists, and so it’s good to see that you didn’t claim to be providing it.

            Look into dark energy and dark matter. NASA and other sites publish information on those. Today’s scientists believe the universe consists of about 95% of energy and matter types that are not types they can measure or that they know ANYTHING about. Scientists believe in dimensions we know nothing about. These scientific discoveries and theories lean a lot more in favor of God’s existence than towards his nonexistence. What our observable universe consists of is only 5% of what exists, according to scientists. Which side SOUNDS delusional when accepting those scientific discoveries?

            Your side then takes this approach, if it accepts this rather new scientific information. “We know that most of all that exists scientists know nothing about, BUT we make assumptions about what does not exists in that unknowable part of our universe.” And we call those not agreeing with our assumptions delusional. Those assumptions of yours appear to be based on your feelings, because you always attach emotional reasons to your belief also, such as, “I think there’s too much hurt here affecting mankind, or you don’t like messages, which people claim were delivered to them from those invisible realms. And because of that you claim no being (God) is there…without knowing what the hell is there. Who holds the delusion? How do you know what’s in the hidden parts of this universe that scientists claim exists, when they don’t know what’s there or even what it consists of?

            Your acceptance of eyewitness testimony does not nullify the fact it exists. Believers have that testimony and their responses (belief in) to it. Non believers point to science as one of their supports, when their belief in science works against them if they really accept what science has discovered.

            Someone else’s false religious belief does not support your point. Logically it works against it. Because if those claims have a basis in reality those religious members could also have been contacted by beings from that scientifically discovered invisible part of our universe. Actually that’s what the book that we believe in claims. The Bible claims the origin of all false religions involve demons.

            If none of those people were contacted from the invisible realm their beliefs have no bearing on your position, except as a delusional crutch (probably grasps in fulfilling some emotional need to prove God’s nonexistence). That delusion is like believing 2+2=7, or an apple is an orange.

  14. Reader says:

    Dear All;
    Use as you see fit;

    title/subject: Who is the Faithful and discreet Slave? [F&DS hereafter] a successful hoax due to the extinction of Beroean study habits among JW’s in past 50yrs.: end title

    As almost every Christian is a sinner, thus each falls short of meeting the requirements. So the only ones who can meet requirements completely are the ones who have not sinned!
    I humbly submit “Jesus” as he is the only standing candidate for the F&DS position, only my opinion of course you must make your own mind up, don’t believe a word I say.

    But there is a more pressing reason which the older ones should remember from the explanations given 30-40ya as to why John 1v1 does not support the Trinity.

    Greek denotes singularity, all you need for this check, is the;
    Kingdom Interlinear [or other Interlinear texts], John 1v1: Matthew 24 v 45 :
    F&DS look for the ‘the’ preceding ‘faithful’ and compare the greek above ‘the’ with inside the back cover of the Kingdom Interlinear to see that the Faithful and discreet slave is singular masculine nominative, like saying F&DS is ‘a bloke’, the greek means just one male person.

    Where the F&DS is mentioned next time it has the same definite article.
    When the time between Matthew 24 v 47 and 28 v 18 are noted, I suggest that would have given the Apostles their answer.
    Therefore the Greek Text specifies the F&DS is an individual male singular entity, the Greek Text does not permit multiple individuals to be the F&DS.

    In a Rehoboam [sack the 70+] like bid for self aggrandisement and to put their hands on dedicated property {why I faded decades ago} they have removed the best argument against the Trinity! Clergy please laugh quietly. Jehovah dear sir, your issues will have to queue.

    Why hasn’t anybody corrected this? I thought there were writing/translation committees etc. etc. to check the ‘word of truth’.

    A truly Spiritual disgrace. Shame on us all.

    Because everyone should have known that multiple persons cannot be F&DS.

    Acts 17 v 11 or ‘…go figure’.

  15. Lynaire Williams says:

    Dear Mark and Messenger,
    I was not talking to the world,just this thread.My respect for the men in the tower is on par with another man who is just as deluded, needing his own golden towers to feel safe. He is also dangerous. The people I respect are very much like you and me. Thrust into something you did not ask for , surviving while experiencing the pain and suffering that seems, inevitably, to accompany these wake up calls. You are all legends.
    Look, it was a bit tongue in cheek really.I had a mental picture of outandabout, up on toes, fists raised, weaving from side to side. While messenger stood, calm as ever, scratching his head in amazment. That said, I do respect rational peoples belief systems. They always come with a price and who am I to say they are wrong. PS My hubby died in 2010. What I miss most is our nightly debates, sometimes disrespectful, on the state of our homeland New Zealand.

    • outandabout says:

      I’m definitely not up on my toes and I have nothing invested here, Lynaire. All ‘good in the hood’.

    • messenger says:

      I’m sorry what happened to you Lynaire. I really am, not just saying it in kindness. I hope one day we meet. You’ll be in my prayers.

  16. Doc Obvious says:

    Watchtower showing their true colors.

    The 2 greatest commandment supersede the 2 witness rule.

    Matthew 22:36-40 – 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

    • Doc Obvious says:

      The 2 witness rule hangs on the 2 greatest commandments found in the book of Matthew 22. It fails to comply with the second greatest commandment. Therefore, the 2 witness rule does not harmonize with the second commandment when it pertains to Child Sexual Abuse.

  17. Ted says:

    @Reader, Good points. No JW would accept that “THE”
    Word at Joh,1:1 refers to multiple personalities. So they
    cannot have it both ways when it comes to “THE” FDS.
    at Mat, 24:45. Same singular masculine rendering in
    both cases, “The Greeks had a word for it” good on them!

    But as you indicate, independent study, of the Bible, checking
    things out is strongly discouraged by the slave with 14 legs.
    it’s plain to see why! —>

    Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [Watchtower organization] endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47. No, it does not. K,M, Sept, 2011 p
    J the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.”—The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 587

    “In Jehovah’s organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to that very thing, …” Watchtower 1967 Jun 1 p.338

  18. sirius says:

    Been watching C-SPAN3’s Key Capital Hill Hearings on the timely area/topic of Prosecution of Crimes Against Children and yes, this includes child sexual abuse. All I can say is that JW Elders should make these hearings necessary watching. They are so far removed from reality & humanity! Should highlight too predators spend quality time “grooming” the target.

    IMHO

    dogstar