Facebook shuts down ExJW group for “Hate Speech”

In a disturbing move that could have worrying implications for wider ExJW and anti-cult activism, it appears that Facebook has just shut down a pivotal activist Facebook page.

The page in question is that of AvoidJW.

For those not familiar, AvoidJW is the pseudonym for an exJW activist who has collected and hosted online an extensive library of Watchtower publications, letters and internal documents. Many of these documents expose how Watchtower is failing to act on child abuse, is misleading the public about shunning, and demonstrate how financially and mentally controlling the organisation really is. In other words, the site is a vital tool for exposing human rights abuses.

Unsurprisingly, AvoidJW has become a pivotal resource for the ExJW community, and for legal and journalistic professionals who wish to cut past the wall of silence that Watchtower often throws up over issues like child abuse and shunning, and access information that sheds light on what is really going on behind the religion’s closed doors. His online presence spans his original website, his twitter account and his Facebook group.

At least it used to.

Facebook has shut him down.

Why is Facebook banning ExJW activists?

When I first heard of this, I thought that perhaps there was some copyright claim involved. Yet it appears that the reason Facebook has cited is not that of copyright violation,

Astonishingly, it appears that the group was shut down under the vague and sweeping generalisation of “hate speech.”

I spoke to AvoidJW to try and find out what had happened. Firstly he set out why he created the website and what his goals are with his online presence;

When I started AvoidJW in October 2014, I had no idea what the site was going to be. I just knew that people needed to “avoid” JWs if they wanted to have a happy life without having the religion interfere with their families. At that time, I didn’t even know there were secret documents in terms of guidelines, handbooks and policy letters. I just thought that the religion was harming people through over-reaching interference. It wasn’t until March 2015 that I discovered secret documents. It was then that I realised what direction I needed to go with the website: bring transparency to a highly secretive and extremely controlling organisation.

So hardly the profile or goals of a rage fuelled, screaming hate preacher. Moving on, I asked about the circumstances leading up to the ban. How was AvoidJW first notified by Facebook? Was there a phonecall? A web chat? A detailed email allowing him to respond? Astonishingly, no. He told me that Facebook pulled the plug on a vital ExJW resource with basically no warning and little explanation;

“Facebook just gave a broad statement saying it broke one or more of its terms of service. “It didn’t cite a specific reason when deleting the page but when they initially suspended the page the reason given was “hate speech.”

Hate Speech is a term usually reserved for people who actively call for the killing or abuse of others, such as extremist Islamist clerics who call for terror attacks, or race hate groups who call for exterminations and ethnic cleansing based on skin colour or racial background. I challenge anyone to look through the AvoidJW website and find anything close to that kind of rhetoric. In fact, you can even look through the Facebook group, which is still viewable via the Google cache.

It seems that an appeal to common sense should have resolved this issue, but what options are open to a Facebook group once they have been shut down without notice? AvoidJW explained his experience as follows;

The “appeal process” is a joke. You are told that to appeal, click this button. So you hit the “appeal” button at the bottom of the warning. When you do that, another message pops up. “You have appealed on [date]. We’ll take another look.” That’s as much of an “appeal” that you get.

Astonishingly, in their appeal review, Facebook confirmed the original decision to shut the page down over accusations of “Hate Speech. AvoidJW was not contacted for his side of the story, or to give information to assist the appeal. Everything took place behind closed doors without his input and, eight hours later, a vital resource for recovering cult victims and anti-cult activists was gone.

Was Watchtower involved?

The appeals process gave no transparency as to the source of the complaint, and no indication if Facebook was acting of its own accord or in response to complaints from a third party. AvoidJW, however, says he is fairly certain of what prompted this event:

I believe it was a result of Watchtower complaining to Facebook

They are working hard to get avoidjw offline. They are regularly checking out stats on  We are the top ranking exJW site in searches according to Alexa. If people can do a search online for a JW publication and arrive at AvoidJW, this is a huge problem for Watchtower. If they can remove our social network presence, this has a knock on effect on our search rankings.

I asked further about the Alexa rankings, and why he suspects that Watchtower might have been involved in this incident.

JW org have a paid subscription to Alexa. They use it all the time. Do a search for Alexa on JW org and you’ll find that they even wrote an article about how well they are ranking on there. Someone with a paid subscription to Alexa is regularly analysing AvoidJW’s ranking on the internet with typical JW terms. I believe it is JW org.

Without conclusive proof it’s hard to be certain. However I can confirm that Watchtower do pay attention to exJW sites like AvoidJW and JW Survey. We ourselves have been subjected to Watchtower legal threats in the past after hosting their secret internal documents online, as documented here and here. It makes sense that AvoidJW, who has a far more extensive collection of confidential and embarrassing Watchtower material, would be firmly placed in their crosshairs.

Whilst AvoidJW has so far been able to stay ahead of Watchtower’s legal arm, it has certainly not been for lack of trying on Watchtower’s part. It’s certainly possible that Watchtower made a “hate speech” complaint to Facebook, and that Facebook then acted without any analysis or reasonable effort to get AvoidJW’s side of the issue.

Of course, this may have just been the result of a lone JW registering a complaint without any official Watchtower involvement. But even if that was the case, we arrive at the same disturbing conclusion.

A religious group able to enforce blasphemy law and silence critics, with Facebook complicit in the act.

Is Facebook becoming a blasphemy enforcer?

This follows a worrying trend of behaviour from Facebook: It has recently come under fire for shutting down the pages and accounts of vulnerable Ex Muslims on similar dubious “hate speech” grounds, although it later backtracked in the face of a huge public outcry. And recent concerns have been raised about claimed collaboration with the Government of Pakistan to remove “blasphemous content.” Whilst these allegations may just be hot air from the Pakistani officials, Facebook have yet to deny this, which is extremely worrying, especially as blasphemy and apostasy carry the death penalty in that country.

Thankfully, AvoidJW has been able to set up a new group, with the collaboration of fellow activists at JWAwake, so his hard work and activism can continue on the social medial site. Nonetheless, the entire incident is very disturbing.

The irony is that, if anyone is committing online “hate speech” in this dispute, it’s Watchtower, with its calls for shunning of those who leave the faith, its demonisation of those who criticise its doctrines and its praise of genocide for non-believers at Armageddon.

Frankly, I don’t support Facebook banning either ExJW or Pro-Watchtower pages, and I don’t like the casual way accusations of “hate speech” are being casually thrown around nowadays, but the appalling lack of ethical clarity here is dreadful. Facebook appear to have become, either by lazy moderation or deliberate choice, Watchtower’s attack dog.

This is why I am such a strong advocate for free speech, barring actual direct incitement to violence. It’s very tempting to shut down speech or opinions you disagree with, or that you feel are dangerously wrongheaded, but the trend of censorship always has a way of backfiring, and this is a perfect example. Challenge speech you don’t agree with. Debate ideas you think are wrong. Expose and ridicule something you perceive to be “hate speech.”  But when we give authorities the power to crush speech we dislike, sooner or later those authorities always come for our speech too.

Facebook has a huge amount of power in the matter of online free speech, and to see it slipping more and more into the role of a religious policeman is extremely disturbing.

Follow me on twitter @covertfade.

Follow JW Survey on twitter @jwsurveyorg.

Follow AvoidJW on twitter @avoidjw.

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134 Responses to Facebook shuts down ExJW group for “Hate Speech”

  1. Jacen Walker says:

    Good news! We are back online with a new FB page, so please share this link and invite everyone back to the new page. It will be moderated a little more now in an attempt to prevent the ‘hate speech’ naysayers.

    https://www.facebook.com/avoidjw/

    • JBob says:

      Great to hear you are trying a private group setting–with a public page to funnel persons toward the group? Although you may want the public to see everything–snooty little JW’s will always file annoying report-this-page/group like snakes in the grass.

      A lesson for social media bandits everywhere–Facebook, Pinterest, Instagram and Google+, Hangouts, Tumblr, WordPress, etc–can destroy your social group or community at any moment, even a business or livelihood, so backup with individual website and blog. Sometimes its a support person at those social media businesses who imposes their “interests” on others, or vendetta-wielding readers.

  2. HolyConnoli says:

    If the WT had any influence on it ( which they may have ) it is in line with what they practice. On one hand they proclaim they believe in “freedom” and free speech but in reality that is the furthest thing they do. If you are a JW and use your freedom of speech to not agree and point out the wrong and hurtful teachings of the WT you will be shunned ,banned and/or have your family shun you, Even your Mother,Father and siblings. Is this freedom of speech that they proclaim to advocate?

    I remember many times when a brother would perhaps challenge or disagree with something written by the WT he would be astonished and avoided and immediately reported to an “ELDER” to be disciplined or worse. There is no freedom of speech, or thought allowed in the WT.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Holy,
      I think I am that brother you are talking about who challenges and disagrees with the things written. The elders get very upset with me because they equate loyalty to our fallible organization which is not inspired with loyalty to Jehovah. It is most unfortunate that they cannot see that a person can love Jehovah and live as a Christian and yet not agree with WT teachings. It is most bizarre. But obviously they are more concerned with being good witnesses than being good Christians. However, it is not the organization which saves, but faith in Jesus which does.

  3. I had my YouTube account closed by the WTBTS. No idea how they found little old me but after posting their first Caleb/Sparlock video before it had been released to JWs officially it had over 100,000 views in 3 days. I was accused of making it myself to discredit the org. This was said by JWs proving that without being “primed” prior to watching it they thought is as insidious and creepy as everyone else.

  4. Jason says:

    I wouldn’t put it past WT to use money to sway FB censorship of critical content aimed at them. They probably are or became an investor which gives them a voice. I always find it humorous when WT and JWs get all wound up over anything critical said or written. In my mind if something is critical but false It is easily dismissed, but when it’s critical and true, that’s when a sting is felt and gets people riled up. To me it’s very telling that WT wants information buried. Hopefully others can identify this fact also. I’m fully awake, but are others? In that period you go thru when you doubt your findings as truth not “apostate lies” one could be swayed to regress back into the false comfort of the group. I allowed myself to keep digging and cross checking my findings. I found “apostate” information was far more truthful that any rhetoric the WT produces.

  5. flyinggabriel says:

    They’re built on information, controlled information. Any bad publicity that affects recruitment and retention is a threat to revenue. If you can reduce bad publicity by clicking a button and ticking a few boxes why wouldn’t they? They’ll spend millions in court trying to hide the unsavory; this act costs nothing. From that angle it’s just a good business decision – a no-brainer really.
    Added to that, Facebook and Youtube are a shambles when it comes to moderation of sites and channels. I know countless hard-working bloggers and investigators who’ve met the reaper. I’m starting to believe they’re using bots to process it all.
    Truth or lies don’t mean much behind winning the information war when it has a price tag. And it is an info war, always has been. This page just took a bunker-buster. Now get back to work.

  6. Steve says:

    Facebook is a joke Several months ago when were in a Christian facebook group (nothing to do with ex jw actvism) someone was posting completely pornographic and obscene stuff and without going into the details i mean hardcore stuff i complained very strongly about it and also to the admin of the group.Facebook ignored it and the admin blocked me???????

  7. steve says:

    Yep very good
    Ive attended some vey strong evangelical churches in my time and i know for a fact that people in the congregation dont all agree on the same teaching for example on the teaching on pre trib and post trib speaking in tounges or not speaking in tounges.There has been no disfellowshippings or fall outs though and surely this is more democratic?
    But at the end of the day all are looking towards Jesus for salvation and not man/men

    • messenger says:

      The reason why those other Christian denominations are tolerant of different scriptural views is because they recognize that a 100% correct understanding of those points is not necessary for salvation, according to the Bible. WT also recognizes that, thus it feels justified in changing its interpretations on a somewhat regular basis.

      The reason why WT does not allow its members to change their beliefs, without it doing so first, has to do with control. WT’s claim for this is because God is a god of order therefore all must believe the same things per a scripture in Corinthians. But WT also must be aware that should it ALLOW its followers to accept views it does not preach then some of its followers might not accept it as the “faithful and discreet slave” and God’s one and only spokes organization on Earth. Once followers believe that all possibilities for their future behaviors exist: going to other churches, becoming atheists, commenting in opposition to WT publications inside and outside the congregation, not going in field service, not donating to WT.

      • dee2 says:

        [“The reason why those other Christian denominations are tolerant of different scriptural views…….”]

        Any Holy Book that is open for various interpretations cannot originate from God.

        How could a so called perfect god have got it all so wrong? So many Christian denominations (approx. 40,000), so many different and contradictory beliefs and interpretations.

        • messenger says:

          dee2

          If you take that position then how about defending it with some factual information. Every thing you said above is pure opinion, that’s all. At least attempt to provide some type of facts that support your claims. The facts you provided above don’t. Actually those work against your claim because those two situations that you shared are written about in the Bible.

          The Bible itself claims there would be multiple interpretations presented by various sects throughout history, and also some of its writers claimed in it that they did not understand everything there. Therefore those two facts, that are written about in the documents making up the Bible hurt your position, which is pure speculative opinion. If the Bible was only interpreted one way that’s when you would have had some fact to support your argument that God is not its author. Multiple interpretations work against your belief. I’m pretty sure you, having been a JW, know the scriptures that support my statements. If you don’t and cannot find those I’ll provide them in a future post, if you make that request of me. For those of you that are new and interested read the last chapter of Daniel, the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians, and the second chapter of 2nd Peter.

          As a comparison the US Constitution is interpreted by the Supreme court, in various and sometimes conflicting ways. That does not prove the CONSTITUTION had no authors. Nor does it prove its authors were not the people that documents claim authored it, and signed off in agreement . Again you and Caroline constantly reach wrong conclusions by ASSUMING that what people do and believe is caused by God while the Bible makes no such claim.

          Does any god cause you to believe and say the things you do? If so why not tell us about that god? If not why not apply that same standard to all other people and the god of the Bible? The Bible claims your choices are yours. Maybe you didn’t understand that when you followed it like other Christians do. But maybe this will drive the point home since your past examination of its scriptures hasn’t. You professed that at one time you believed in Jehovah. Now you don’t. Who made those choices, you, or God?

          There are many scriptures that directly state our choices and beliefs are left to us not to God or Christ as dee2 claimed those would HAVE TO BE if God exists and he inspired the Bible. And the Bible claims that we will bear the consequences for our choices and beliefs. A couple of the most famous of those scriptures are John 3:16 & 17. Most Christians know vs 16. I’m surprised you missed its meaning !

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, the “factual” information is that there are over 40,000 “Christian” denominations. That is a “fact”. You are the one that has the idea that all “Christians” think alike. You prove that all Christians think and teach alike.

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            There are approximately 40,000 different, conflicting Christian denominations each arguing that their interpretation is correct, they have the truth (Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary).

            Why did God go through the trouble of inspiring the writing of an inerrant text, only to leave its correct understanding up to imperfect humans, none of whom seem able to understand it perfectly so that we now have approximately 40,000 different, conflicting Christian denominations and interpretations?

            Why go through the trouble of producing an inerrant text if you’re not going to ensure that people have an inerrant understanding of it that is not open to a multitude of interpretations?

            The situation is made even worse by the fact that there is no universally accepted Bible Canon.

            Roman Catholics claim that the Bible contains 73 canonical (authentic) books, while most Protestants accept only 66 because they reject the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books.

            The Orthodox Christians accept 76 books.
            The Ethiopian church, which traces its roots to the fourth-century church, claims a Canon of some 81 books.

            Each denomination insists that their Bible is the correct one.

            How can God be behind all of this?

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            One of my comments is awaiting moderation.

            I was not able to make sense of much of your response a part from the following:

            [ “The Bible itself claims there would be multiple interpretations presented by various sects throughout history, and also some of its writers claimed in it that they did not understand everything there……….. Multiple interpretations work against your belief.”]

            Each of the approximately 40,000 denominations is able to find scriptures to support their conflicting interpretations with each arguing that their interpretation is the correct one.

            Why is this possible? Might it have something to do with the way the Bible was written?

            Why is it possible for one Christian denomination to read the Bible and see one thing while another denomination reads the same Bible and come up with something totally different?

            Why has God made the Bible so difficult to understand given that our lives depend on it?

            Why hasn’t God been crystal clear, unambiguous, unequivocal in what he means so that no room is left for interpretation?

            Couldn’t God have easily written the Bible so that red means red, green means green, just like a stoplight? Why is God confounding us?

            Further, if God speaks to Christians as you claim and Christians are earnestly praying to God to ascertain his will, then why isn’t God telling everyone the same thing?

            Are all of the multitude of interpretations correct? You also seem to be implying that not all interpretations of the Bible are correct yet at the same time you are also claiming that they are all correct by stating that different scriptural views are acceptable.

          • messenger says:

            dee2

            I’m not God so why do you ask me all those questions about why he did things. There are scriptures that might address some of your concerns. But the whole Bible message taken as one clear message might suggest the truest answer. Understanding that message along with observing how we’ve all responded to it in different ways I believe to be the correct answer to your questions.

            The short answer to your questions is human choice. Any message God could reveal to people is not the main reason why some would follow him and others wouldn’t. The reason why some now do and some don’t is because that’s what they choose to do. That idea is spread throughout many Bible scriptures and all the Bible stories teach that message proving God is aware of it.

            Years ago, when I was a new JW, a circuit overseer elaborated on that point. And I’ve heard pastors in other denominations elaborate on it also. The CO stressed it this way. God shapes us through experiences and circumstances that he allows to come into our lives. Through our responses to those he shapes us into vessels of wrath fit for destruction, or vessels of mercy to be saved (Romans 9:19-23). Our experiences effect the choices we make true, but our choice to follow God or reject him is still made by us because of who we are, not primarily because of the message God has given us(John 3:16-18). He’s given us enough information to follow him if we want to by sending Christ. That’s why belief in Christ is necessary for salvation, and belief in him is the means of salvation, because following Christ is following God. Its a choice.

          • messenger says:

            dee2

            Most of those denominations share the same beliefs about most of the scriptures. And I don’t see them arguing with each other about the beliefs they don’t hold in common. WT and Mormons are the two big accusers, claiming all other denomination are ungodly. And I don’t even believe Mormons make that claim, just JWs do. Most denominations view those two as cults.

            Another comment is awaiting moderations that answers some of your questions.

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger you are contradicting yourself:

            “Most of those denominations share the same beliefs about most of the scriptures.”

            Yet you stated in other comments:

            “The reason why those other Christian denominations are tolerant of different scriptural views……”

            “The Bible itself claims there would be multiple interpretations presented by various sects throughout history, and also some of its writers claimed in it that they did not understand everything there. Therefore those two facts, that are written about in the documents making up the Bible hurt your position, which is pure speculative opinion.

            If the Bible was only interpreted one way that’s when you would have had some fact to support your argument that God is not its author. Multiple interpretations work against your belief.

            I’m pretty sure you, having been a JW, know the scriptures that support my statements. If you don’t and cannot find those I’ll provide them in a future post, if you make that request of me. For those of you that are new and interested read the last chapter of Daniel, the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians, and the second chapter of 2nd Peter.”

            Which is it Messenger?

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, no matter how many times you keep repeating and repeating the same tired expressions of “faith”, to me your comments are meaningless.

        • messenger says:

          Caroline

          Another clear indication that you don’t understand simple words that are strung together into clear thoughts. I attempt to write at a fairly low grade level of understanding most of the time. For example, I rarely use contractions, or any type of figurative language. I’m also writing in your language and during the same time period you live in. The Bible uses figurative language on a regular basis, was written in a language that was translated into yours, and was written by many authors all of whom lived thousands of years ago. And yet you claim to have an expert understanding of it when even the real experts don’t make that claim. At least I have not known any to.

          Jeremiah 12:5, “Because with footmen you have run, and they tire you out, how, then, can you run a race with horses…?” If you cannot understand my short and simple comments why do you suppose you can understand written documents as long, as complex, and as old as the whole Bible on your own? I didn’t say all Christians think alike. I said the opposite, that they don’t..

          Also, the sky is blue, that is a fact, but it doesn’t support dee2’s claims. The fact there are multiple denominations is a fact also that doesn’t support her claims. The Bible claims that. Therefore she has no logical argument using it to suggest it proves the Bible is not inspired by God. The best she could have done is suggest she doesn’t believe it, and use that as one of her reasons. That fact proves nothing. And her claim God got it wrong is incorrect. I shared scriptures with you that prove he got it right with regard to multiple Christian denominations arising. You gals are the ones that got it wrong.

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            Please explain – how it is possible for each of the approximately 40,000 Christian denominations to be able to find scriptures to support their CONFLICTING interpretations with each arguing that their interpretation is the correct one?

        • Anonim says:

          Please make yourself a good and read this:

          A Real Case Against the Jews/Commissary to the Gentiles by Marcus Eli Ravage

          https://theendofzion.com/a-real-case-against-the-jews-marcus-eli-ravage/

  8. The JWS sued a publishing company for a book of a former JW they published. They said his claims about Shunning were wrong and told the company to stop selling the 1st edition.
    They referred of their FAQ section about ‘former members’.

    • JBob says:

      JWs once were in mode of leaving the “apostates” alone, but have lately adopted Scientology’s modus operandi. Assess, stalk, annoy and destroy. They will attempt to destroy reputations or financial stability. With the current trend toward God & Country patriotism, this group could end up being banned on the Western side of the Atlantic.

  9. Julie Hill says:

    There is something very strange about both twitter and facebook. Whilst I was active on sites and forums regarding a missing child Madeleine McCann, twiiter would regularly make my account “unfollow” people who held the same views as me. It was not just me it happened to, it was also happening regularly to others who held the same interests. As for facebook, there were hundreds of us who were sceptical of the McCann parents who were added, without our permission to the McCanns official facebook page. Facebook displayed that we had “liked” the page when we clearly hadn’t. I for one had never even visited it, yet I had been added?? Money talks with both facebook and twitter in my opinion.

  10. bobxtm says:

    “Hate Speech is a term usually reserved for people who actively call for the killing or abuse of others, such as extremist Islamist clerics who call for terror attacks” On Facebook, “hate speech” is a term reserved for people who warn about extremist Islamist clerics recruiting people for terror attacks.

  11. Joe says:

    Well…if you can find any pro-JW facebook group that expresses anything close to the watchtower’s true view on apostates, it ought to definitely qualify as hate speech.

    Just putting that out there.

  12. Ron Survivor says:

    The WT has shares in some 80 Companies including facebook.

    • wow, can this be proven? Im very interested if they do indeed have shares in facebook.
      WOuld not surprise me if they were involved with shutting it down, but facebook has been shutting down many various facebook groups on various subjects. I think FB are paranoid of legal action.

  13. Fooledmeonce says:

    Well the Watchtower or one of its followers may have won a small battle using Facebook. We know they lost a much bigger battle in Russia.
    Still it’s like the saying, “First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you and then you win.”
    When Watchtower comes out and fights the end is near for them. They should stay with their best policy of ignoring everything.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      Yeah, Watchtower doesn’t know how to fight. They only know how to hide. Unfortunately for them, you can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

  14. Sharon Christensen says:

    Face Bk I think has some kind of Jewish tone….according to Brother Nathaniel on Utube….Bros are cozy with so…uh yeah….anyhow forget facebk…make a steamit acct….they are looking for quality and substance….open a Steemit acct…bonus…they pay in bit coin! It is a different route to accomplish the same thing…:I do not have facebk so not sure if I can chk what was about…but one of these fine times I am gonna start my Steemit acct…Just to darn busy of late…Heck…does anybody have any idea why…Vancouver, BC Canada was not whlchair friendly RC? Anyone in whlchair…could not view …”Remember The Wife Of Lot” video…except on Jw Survey! Bummer…HEHE….;). Anyways…not to worry…more than one way to mk smoke for rubbin in eyes….I am sure…Toni, Moris, Steve and Flett…etc….paid or put pressure on….Hey…we never come this far by them shutting something down…if nothing to hide….why should they worry….Just told my Good Catholic Lady I clean for….man…!!!! Gonna go like stubble on a fall day with a strong wind! Get the hosers out! ;)- I am soo far behind on all things…still did not get to watch Johns Warwick teaser! So gotta go…Never chked all comments yet….but you no me…just gotta poke something…thanx…

  15. Meredith J says:

    Didn’t I tell you this once before Covert? They are all involved. The source is the one and the same. Although you keep trying to silence me. The rabbit hole just keeps getting deeper.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Meredith J,
      The moderator is wrecking my ability to comment below, so I’ll see if I can comment here for your comment below.

      The video you refer to has a flaw that the pyramid structure which it says is the WT president’s headstone is not his headstone. A search in sites which provide photos of gravestones in the US gives the result of a decent modest usual headstone with his photo on it.

      The pyramid structure is at the entrance to the cemetery where quite a number of graves besides his is found.

    • Ricardo says:

      And the point about the New World Translation not being a good translation is purely a matter of opinion. I have a book which is not produced by WT which compares translations and gives the New World a big thumbs up. I can’t see what is the use of this point if it is just an opinion.

    • Ricardo says:

      And the point about the WT Bible not being a good translation is purely a matter of opinion. I have a book which is not produced by WT which compares translations and gives the New World a big thumbs up. I can’t see what is the use of this point if it is just an opinion.

    • twistedsister69 says:

      U r correct Meredith. The tentacles reach far & wide.

  16. Meredith J says:

    Here is a an interesting link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRmzClg1PJc

    • Ricardo says:

      @Meredith,
      I am sorry for being a stickler for detail, but I feel I must correct two things mentioned in that video.

      The first mistake is the picture of a pyramid which the video says is Charles Taze Russell’s gravestone. A search in sites which provide photos of gravestones in the US gives the result of a decent modest usual headstone with Charles Taze Russell’s photo on it.

      The pyramid structure is at the entrance to the cemetery where quite a number of graves besides Russell’s is found.

      And the point about the New World Translation not being a good translation is purely a matter of opinion. I have a book which is not produced by WT which compares translations and gives the New World a big thumbs up. I can’t see what is the use of this point if it is just an opinion.

      • Caroline says:

        Ricardo, you do not know the truth about the truth yet.

        You have not done research about Russell’s gravestone. Do some honest research about Russell’s gravestone and come back here and then comment. There are a lot of websites that have actual videos of both gravestones in relation to each other.

        You are still in the dark about Watchtower’s real history. Go to JW facts and read up and then come back here and comment. Even your comments about the New World Translation shows you have not learned the real truth about the truth yet.

        No wonder you keep going to meetings and take your son. Do yourself a huge favor and get a copy of “Captives of a Concept” by Don Cameron and read it.

        You don’t know squat about Watchtower yet.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Meredith,
      I am sorry for being a stickler for detail, but I feel I must correct two things mentioned in that video.

      The first mistake is the picture of a pyramid which the video says is Charles Taze Russell’s gravestone. A search in sites which provide photos of gravestones in the US gives the result of a decent modest usual headstone with Charles Taze Russell’s photo on it.

      The pyramid structure is at the entrance to the cemetery where quite a number of graves besides Russell’s is found.

      And the point about the New World Translation not being a good translation is purely a matter of opinion. I have a book which is not produced by WT which compares translations and gives the New World a big thumbs up. I can’t see what is the use of this point if it is just an opinion.

    • Ricardo says:

      @Meredith,
      There are two things mentioned in that video which I think need to be corrected.

      The first mistake is the picture of a pyramid which the video says is Charles Taze Russell’s gravestone. A search in sites which provide photos of gravestones in the US gives the result of a decent modest usual headstone with Charles Taze Russell’s photo on it.

      The pyramid structure is at the entrance to the cemetery where quite a number of graves besides Russell’s is found.

      And the point about the New World Translation not being a good translation is purely a matter of opinion. I have a book which is not produced by WT which compares translations and gives the New World a lot of praise. I can’t see what is the use of this point if it is just an opinion.

      • messenger says:

        That pyramid might not be right over Russell’s grave, but Russell taught those pyramid doctrines- including the teaching that God had it built by non Egyptian kings, Melchizedek and others, as a witness to God’s existence, and also that the pyramid contains many prophetic symbols. One of the proofs that Russell taught those things can be found online, where quotes taken from the book Thy Kingdom Come are shown. I read the WT society placed the 7 foot pyramid over or near Russell’s grave in 1921.

        I have some original copies of very old books written by Rutherford. In one of those he denounced the pyramid doctrines as Satanic. I read he first did that in 1928, way after Russell’s death. Several months ago I posted a quote from one of Rutherford’s books on this site where he denounced that doctrine. I haven’t read it since then, but I believe I copied it from his book Light (Book One/published in1930), although it might have been from Vindication (1931).

        The important issue about the pyramid is not exactly where that 7 foot monument is in the graveyard Russell’s buried in. The significant issue is that Russell’s followers believed those doctrines until 1928 when those were finally denounced by Rutherford as Satanic. Any Christian today will recognize those as apostate doctrines. Why should all of WT’s apostate teachings be forgiven by God but none of those organizations’ it claims teach apostate doctrine like WT has admitted to? Is there any logical explanation for that claim since the Bible claims God is not partial?

        • Ricardo says:

          @Messenger,
          It is true that WT had some pretty weird understandings about pyramids, or at least one pyramid which it was claimed Joseph (son of Jacob) had built which had secret meanings.

          However, the video mentioned claimed the pyramid in the video was Russell’s gravestone. On looking for confirmation of your statement that the pyramid was built 5 years after Russell’s death, I found an interesting site: http://ctr-rlbible.com/?p=1212
          which gave the following info:

          This pyramid monument is not Russell’s gravestone, tombstone, or grave marker. Rutherford had this monument constructed in the middle of the plot owned by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, not just to honor Russell, but to honor all who died while working at the Watch Tower headquarters. There are numbered spaces for many names that were to be inscribed on that monument, not just Russell’s. Rutherford, however, abandoned the witness of the Great Pyramid before the names could inscribed, so that the pyramid shows a lot of numbered blank spaces. Nevertheless, there is no one buried in or under that monument.

          The site also gave this explanation for why some try to misinform: Many wish to have Russell buried under such a monument, that is, to further the false claims that Russell was an occultist, or that Russell was into some kind of spiritistism, Satanism, demonism, etc. In reality, the Biblical study of the Great Pryamid has nothing to do with such.

          And with regard to symbols etc on the pyramid and publications: Many, by use of imaginative fanaticism, seem to see “occultism”, “Masonic symbolisms”, “astrology”, “spiritism”, and many other evil things regarding Rutherford’s monument, as well as in or on the books and publications of Charles Taze Russell. It is not that the graphical symbols, such as the “cross and crown”, are actually “Masonic”, or “occultic”, etc., but this is what many are being led to believe through imaginative assumptions that they are.

          • messenger says:

            Here’s the quote by Rutherford from Light Book One. In it there is a strong implied meaning that those who believe in that pyramid theology, which was believed in by WT until two years before this quote was published, were not the remnant. Also, where did you read WT claims Joseph built the pyramid of Giza? I understand that that pyramid was built hundreds of years before Joseph was there. And reading pages online from the WT publication Thy Kingdom Come I saw WT claimed non Egyptian kings built it, Melchizedek and others.

            It could be viewed that the Biblical study of the Giza pyramid has something to do with Satanism since it has nothing to do with the Bible, and since the pyramid theology claims it does. If any other religion published the information WT would link it to Satanic misrepresentations. It is rather apostasy, a deflection from Bible truth which is also Satanic. Actually this type of deflection, associating objects with Bible scriptures and prophecies that have nothing to do with those scriptures is what WT has always done. Here’s the quote.

            “The remnant now ‘see visions’; that is to say, are given an understanding of things not heretofore understood. A special blessing is the remnant deciphering the code signs of the book of Revelation; also those who love righteousness, and hear and obey what they understand, will be blessed. Those who ‘hate instruction and cast the Word of the Lord behind them,’ who take away from God’s Word of Revelation or who add thereto by adding the signs such as the pyramid of Gizeh, will not understand,–Ps 50:17; Dan 12:10; Rev. 22:19” Light Book One pg 12

            Rev 22:18 NWT reads in part, “If anyone makes an addition to these things , God will add him to the plagues written in this scroll.”

            And Rutherford cited vs 19, “If anyone takes anything away from the word of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.”

            Christ didn’t state there was a specified time when that adding or taking away could be done by groups or individuals without them receiving the stated consequences. Therefore the time considered is all times (anytime some one would do it). And what applies to orgs the WT calls Christendom applies to WT. Therefore those doctrines about the Giza pyramid were Satanic because they were apostasy and condemned by scripture.

          • Ricardo says:

            @Messenger, once again you are correct. It was thought that Melchizadek had built the Pyramid of Giza, not Joseph.

        • Ricardo says:

          @Messenger,
          I am not in any way trying to be an apologist for WT or Russell. But I don’t like false information in that video. If someone wants to criticize Russell, Rutherford and WT, at least do so honestly. And that video did not do so honestly.

    • Ricardo says:

      And the point about the WT Bible not being a good translation is purely a matter of opinion. I have a book which is not produced by WT which compares translations and gives the New World a big thumbs up. I can’t see what is the use of this point if it is just an opinion.

  17. Ricardo says:

    I really hate this moderator. Our harmless comments are put aside and never reappear.

    • Meredith J says:

      Ricardo and others, thanks for taking such an interest in my comments. I have not come back till today. I had no idea I had sparked such conversation. I wish Ricardo you would pray about this and be logical. Do your homework. There are many Bible translations that are taken from Westcott and Horte that are used these days which are popular because they do not contain the old fashioned language. That is why the people who endorse those other bibles also endorse The New World Translation which I understand has since gone under the knife.

      For anyone who wants to find the truth about this organisation, they need to find out from the internet. As much as Watchtower has poisoned your minds about it, you need to find out just how evil it is and then you can accept the truth finally and turn to Christ whose name is above ALL others. There are numerous videos which tell the truth in some way, whether it is made as a proper documentary in a professional way or whether it is an ex brother or sister who feels that they should speak out.

      When you are coming out of a cult, you really need to get to the bottom of it and then work out how to leave it. As hard as it is, it is the only way to deal with it. Maybe it is time to ‘make the real truth your own.’

  18. Average Joe says:

    Hey Tom. Sorry to hear about this Olympic lack of judgement by FB. Good to hear that you’re up & running again socially.

    @Ricardo. I doubt that it’s the moderator. It’s more than likely the automated site software holding your comments in a queue (and with all the comments they get, it can take the staff a while to sift through them all.)

  19. Sharon Christensen says:

    Just taken a “break” from… the heat….chkin on comments, and kinda smiling to myself…I always get blamed for being a poop distruber…glad to see was not my doing this time…but no prob….just rding the ol mag my boss gave me …Dec. 7/015…”In Touch” it is called…pg 28…article about Pedofile…;). Interesting what it says as to…..No wonder Dear Bros. who are, like to cover over and mk their woolies lk all clean and wht cuz if found out, and get sent to prison…may loosen that sheeple cover…and a tad more! I take back all the things I previously posted as to cuz of my view points of them if it was a tad bit hatefully speeched…although hard to feel differently because of the ways they have affected soooo many peoples lives in such a negective way…So I will not from this day forward…plug their fancy drains…float my zebra mussel infested pontoon boat in their pond so it can corrode their pumps, or leave bum prints on their frnt drs at Warwick…Good thing I am not blessed with a beautiful body like Mileys Cyrus…Or I would chance riding a wreckin ball thru all!!!! I am too pouched out from all the hi cortisol levels being a JWS for so many yrs and the effects of hi stress, so I have been listening to K Pop as of late, thanx to my daughter…I have put down my Hand Pan for a bit…K Pop…Beautiful boys and girls…tight pants, red pants, no pants, mkup etc….good music…gonna just sit and peacefully blare away song….group called Big Bang…song listening to as I panhandle…Bang Bang Bang…not saying where or when….just gonna try and do a pieceful protest…trying hard to behave myself…not easy when one has a seen and experienced sooo much corruption and deceit, lies etc. within Jw.org…. Seems what goes aroun…comes aroun…shrugs? 😉

  20. Miker Tower says:

    Hate??? And WHOM is sang we have a “Mental Ilness” because we don’t give a F about the GB authority?. WHO is the group that practice SHUNNING? I mean C’mon.

  21. twistedsister69 says:

    Honestly, I don’t understand why Jehovah’s Witnesses still condemn homosexuality. I mean, what’s your problem people? Just read your own Goddamned bibles! So many times, your Jehovah is referred to as The Ancient of Gays.

  22. Doc Obvious says:

    Liked your latest video on jw child abuse, Lloyd. I know it is frustrating that organizations that are suppose to unravel the sick child abuse policies are not doing their job. At least, a lawyer in Britain and lawyers in the United States are finally coming out to confront the Watchtower leadership on this issue. This is great progress. Watchtower cover ups are coming out. Sometimes it takes a while.

  23. Victor says:

    Come on… if you have hard facts, that’s one thing. But this article is mostly speculation. Literally anyone can report a page, and Facebook is so stupid they’ll block it. Let’s stick with the solid proof and avoid the speculative world.

  24. eyes opened says:

    Just my 2 cents worth…earlier comments about the variety of Christian religions and different teachings…the common thread isn’t in doctrine but in recognizing Jesus as king and savior and following his teachings as outlined in the sermon on the mount. Nothing doctrinal in Christ’s teachings. Various thoughts on doctrinal issues (concluded by men) seem to be where the different religions come into play. Nothing profound here just a thought.

    Regards

    • dee2 says:

      [“Nothing doctrinal in Christ’s teachings. Various thoughts on doctrinal issues (concluded by men) seem to be where the different religions come into play. Nothing profound here just a thought.”]

      Yet each of the approximately 40,000 Christian denominations is able to find scriptures to support their CONFLICTING interpretations with each arguing that their interpretation is the correct one.

    • dee2 says:

      [“Nothing doctrinal in Christ’s teachings. Various thoughts on doctrinal issues (concluded by men) seem to be where the different religions come into play. Nothing profound here just a thought.”]

      Then why are there 40,000 different Christian denominations?
      (Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary).

    • dee2 says:

      [“Nothing doctrinal in Christ’s teachings. Various thoughts on doctrinal issues (concluded by men) seem to be where the different religions come into play. Nothing profound here just a thought.”]

      If God speaks to Christians and Christians are earnestly and sincerely praying to God to ascertain his will, then why isn’t God telling everyone the same thing?

      Why hasn’t God been crystal clear, unambiguous, unequivocal in what he means so that no room is left for interpretation?

      • messenger says:

        Many of the disagreements arose because of scriptures some groups claim should be taken literally that are viewed by other groups as figurative language. For instance, some Christians believe the Israel that is most often referred to in the New Testament refers to the Christian church-having no bearing at all on literal Israel- while other Christians believe those scriptures refer only to natural born Jews that will eventually be saved by God after he finishes turning his attention to the gentile populations.

        I think an important issue about this is the idea that some people believe God will kill someone for coming to a wrong conclusion about which one of those ideas is correctly understood or reaching their wrong conclusions about ALL other scriptures. That’s the idea you put forward when you claimed our lives depend on a correct understanding of the Bible. Is that belief correct or not? Most Christians including JWs claim its not. Although some of those groups believe a Christian must share their groups beliefs to be saved, but most of the Christians I’ve heard from don’t feel that way.

        For instance, there is a commenter here that frequently denies the Bible speaks of an Earthly paradise. Yet Matt 5:5 claims people will inherit the land (earth). Assuming God exists why would he kill that person if he has an understanding that was not intended in that scripture? Or, why would God kill someone else if “the land” in that context isn’t on Earth, but that person believes the scripture speaks of it as being on Earth? Those are some of the types of disagreements that arise. And you should be able to see that they arise because of people not God. I don’t think God is going to do about what you claim and wack the people who are wrong about those types of issues.

        I believe eyes opened has the correct understanding which is that only following certain Bible information is necessary for salvation. While understanding all of the Bible information is beneficial it is not necessary for salvation. There is no indication in scripture that all of it would be understood. The opposite of that is indicated in scripture. See the scriptures I referenced in a post far above this one to confirm that.

        • messenger says:

          My mistake !!!

          Should read ‘go about’ not “do about” in next to last paragraph/

        • Caroline says:

          Messenger, you can find any belief you want to believe in in the Bible because it is so full of contradictions. Just one example is faith without works is dead (James 2:26) and we are save NOT BY OUR WORKS (2 Tim. 1:9). The Bible has hundreds of contradictions like that, proving it is a man made book and not god-breathed like what we were taught through Watchtower. Even Watchtower admits there is absolutely no Bible today that is inspired because there are no originals left to examine.

          • messenger says:

            Those two thoughts are not contradictory. You just don’t understand their meaning Caroline.

            Take the last thought. According to Bible scriptures no person will receive everlasting life because their WORKS earned them that position. God is not required to give anyone life, and a sinner could never earn that spot even if God was, which he is not. God only gives that as a gift (the Bible calls those motivations and actions of God grace), just like he’s given you your present life which was also not due to your works. That’s the Bible and Christian understanding of that scripture. All Christian denominations understand and teach it that way. “We are not saved by works.” James 2:26

            Your first thought, “faith without works is dead” is not even talking about the same issue. Where in that scripture does it say that works save a person-as you claim it must in order to contradict your second point? But it doesn’t. That thought merely describes one characteristic of faith. What is that characteristic? That if it is alive it produces actions, in that scripture called works. But no comment is made that works are what saves or that works are the reasons God saves.

            You don’t understand partly because you’ve been indoctrinated with WT theology that most other Christians never suffered. WT theology stresses works WT wants congregants to do with absolute submission to WT, by performing those in the ways WT approves of.

            The way you understand these two thoughts is why you cannot understand why some Bible characters did some reprehensible things while they are referred to in scripture as righteous people, like Lot was. As huge part of faith is not works; it is belief. People like David, Abraham, Noah and others had a strong belief in God. They believed God exists like you believe I do or Lloyd does. A lot of people, most, don’t believe God exists that strongly. All Bible characters except Christ and some invisible ones sinned. Lot did, but he is counted as righteous because of his faith. It wasn’t just his works. Although his belief did cause him to act in certain ways also.

            Your big mistake when you attempt to teach the Bible is claiming you know more about it than is accurately known-by you, while stressing your opinions must be correct. The stressing you are right is not bad, but it is bad when you do that when you are wrong.

            That is a WT tactic. Yet even WT changes its opinions when they believe those are wrong. At least at times it does. But with almost 100% of what it teaches, while it teaches those ideas, WT dogmatically insists it is correct. The funny thing is that it also claims it is not dogmatic when an objective observer might ask, “who let the dogs out?”

            WT claims it has no clergy laity classes, yet if members of its laity refuse to believe everything its clergy writes they are kicked out the WT church. WT contradictions are so pronounced its funny. Watching them teach is like watching the Keystone Cops do police work. Ruff, ruff, “who let the dogs out.”

  25. dee2 says:

    Messenger,

    You have absolved the Bible of any culpability and placed the reason for the multiplicity of Christian denominations and interpretations solely on humans.

    The problem is not with humans. THE PROBLEM IS THE BIBLE ITSELF.

    The bible does not have a consistent doctrine running through it. It offers more than one theological position. That would explain the multitude of interpretations that can be gleaned from it on pretty much any and every issue.

    Take your interpretation of Matthew 5:5 for example.
    In the beatitudes so-called Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 – 7) Jesus declared certain types of people to be happy or blessed, and in each case he makes a promise concerning their future. Among the promises that Jesus makes are:

    –  the kingdom of the heavens belong to them (Matthew 5:3, 10, 12, 19 – 20; 7:21)
    –  they will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)
    –  they will see God (Matthew 5:8)
    –  they will be called sons of God (Matthew 5:9)

    So you could inherit the earth or be in heaven.

    • Caroline says:

      Messenger to add to dee2’s comment, Jesus also said that anybody that believed in him would be able to drink poison with no ill effects and also pick up deadly snakes (Mark 16:16-18).

      Many people are stupid enough to believe that and have died. Are you one of those “Christians” messenger? If you don’t have that kind of faith, then you don’t believe the Bible do you and you have some doubt.

      • messenger says:

        Not all Bibles contain that verse because it is not contained in all extant manuscripts used to translate scripture from. Nevertheless Christ was not advising anyone to drink poison or pick up a snake. He was rather commenting on an outcome if that happened, as happened to Paul:

        Acts 28:3-6New International Version (NIV)

        3 Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” 5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. 6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

        • Caroline says:

          Messenger, where in the world did you ever get the idea that I believed in the existence of any god? I have never, never, never made any claims about the teachings in the Bible and you keep saying that. I am only giving you scriptures for you to look up that are contradictory of each other. There are hundreds and even thousands of contradictions in the Bible which prove it could never be inspired by a perfect god or god-breathed. It would have to be kept perfect from the beginning until now and there are no original manuscripts and all the copies of manuscripts date to hundreds of years after Jesus even died and they are traced back to the Catholic Church.

          You are the one indoctrinated by Watchtower and try and explain away scriptures that plainly contradict each other. You need to take the Bible at face value. If it contradicts itself, then it’s man made. When it was all put together, it was not intended to be read as god breathed. It was put together by church leaders almost 2,000 years ago. It wasn’t put together by Jehovah and it was hand written by monks and there are thousands upon thousands of those handwritten manuscripts and no two are alike.

          You know nothing about the Bible or how we got it and you refuse to do any research and you are arguing non-points.

          I can’t use the words that describe your intelligence because my comment will probably be banned but all I can say is that I feel you are possibly the dullest penny in a huge pile of pennies of almost anybody I have ever tried to talk to.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            You can probably use whatever words you want everybody else does, so what would make yours so different. Let’s analyze the comments above. You called me the dullest penny, simply because I analyze your statements and prove those often come up wanting, such as the ones of yours just made.

            There you first claim I represented you as believing in God. If you’re referring to the comment I just offered above that one, I don’t see it, and I cannot see anyone else reading that in either. Next you say, ” I have never, never, never made any claims about the teachings in the Bible and you keep saying that.” Oh no? What’s this, “I am only giving you scriptures for you to look up that are contradictory of each other. There are hundreds and even thousands of contradictions in the Bible which prove it could never be inspired by a perfect god or god-breathed. It would have to be kept perfect from the beginning until now and there are no original manuscripts and all the copies of manuscripts date to hundreds of years after Jesus even died and they are traced back to the Catholic Church.”

            I think you do not know what making a claim is. Your whole purpose here appears to be to make claims about the teachings in the Bible or the god of the Bible. That’s what you usually do. No matter what the article is about both you and dee2 stoop to making claims about the Bible and its god. Uhh, let’s understand words better to make more logical statements. What’s a claim?

            VERB
            1.state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof:

            “he claimed that he came from a wealthy, educated family” ·

            synonyms: assert · declare · profess · maintain · state · hold · affirm · avow · argue ·
            [more]

            NOUN
            1.an assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt:

            “he was dogged by the claim that he had CIA links” ·

            synonyms: assertion · declaration · profession · affirmation · avowal · protestation ·

            You just made multiple claims in your comment, but since you always assert you are right let’s return to your claim that the 10 commandments are in Exodus 34 and not Exodus 20 and Duet 5. In the past your claim was that and since I posted Ex 20, and Duet 5 you claimed I was ignorant and did not know which scriptures are recognized in scripture as the ten commandments.

            Look up all the articles you want on the subject. Look up peer review articles because those profess to be articles written by scholars and reviewed by scholars. If you are honest, which I have yet to see any indication of, then you’ll admit you were wrong then and wrong now when you claim, ” I have never, never, never made any claims about the teachings in the Bible and you keep saying that.”

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            Or, appears to be contradictory to those who don’t understand them. I’ve already pointed this out many times when commenting on your teaching. Most every issue you raise can be looked at in different ways that are not contradictory. That’s true for the billions of Christians for they see no contradictions in the same documents you read.

            As an avid Bible reader I assume you have read the many scriptures that directly say only those God allows to understand Bible scriptures will. If any person does not understand any written document (not just the Bible), as it was intended to be understood, yet he or she believes they do then obviously wrong conclusions about the meaning of what it says will be drawn. In that case with a book as lengthy as the Bible contradictions might appear in their minds. You cannot know what the Bible says unless allowed by God. Have you read that?

          • Caroline says:

            Or messenger you write up your own version of the bible such as the New World Version and change Jesus into a little god instead of GOD like what the King James says and virtually every Bible says, that is unless you by the Greber bible says.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            I believe you stated in past posts that you’ve attended some college or university classes. If so will you post your GPA using only 4.0 as the top possible scores from each class without giving yourself extra points as some schools do in honor class sections? Since you wrote about my dull intelligence level, let’s check yours. Also please let us know approximately how many college or university classes you took where you received a final grade. Don’t list ones that were just monitored for free but not graded.

            I’ve taken well over a hundred graded classes in colleges or universities. With about 90 of those inside a university. Throughout that experience I was also working full time. Here are my grades that you might choose to analyze and in that way determine if I was deemed dull by my teachers and professors (experts in their fields). Please note if the assessments of those professional people in specialized fields, many of whom were doctors, agrees with your own assessment that my intelligence level is the dullest penny in a huge pile of pennies, or if their assessments do not agree with you. And be aware that the ability to accurately assess documents and students’ class work is somewhat related. Teachers not only have to understand the information under consideration, they must be able to accurately assess if others do. If you decide their opinions differ from yours, and yet they are experts, then will you be able to understand why all the Christian experts have a different understanding of the Bible than you do? Could it be that they just have better comprehension skills in that subject (the Bible)?

            Here are my grades calculated from classes allowing a maximum possible score at 4.0 None of that phony boloney stuff allowing students to get higher scores than 4.0 per class because of taking honor classes.

            I never computed my GPA from my university college of education, but I received an A in all classes except one. In that one class I received a B+. So, in the college of education at a university my GPA was about 3.9; during my junior college experience which proceeded entering a university my GPA was 3.75; inside my university experience while fulfilling the classes for my specified major, prior to the educational college my GPA was a 3.0. During that period (my major) I averaged taking 8 classes at a time, but I also took up to 11at a time after receiving special permission from the dean, because I had a high GPA. Because of taking so many classes at once while working full time I chose not to complete all the work in some classes which effected my grades.

            I studied a very specialized major-which was not education. Students had to pass tests in that subject before being admitted into the program. Of the students I saw admitted into it about 70% of them didn’t complete it because of receiving low grades. Those were advised to change majors to something easier or were forced out by faculty.

          • flyinggabriel says:

            Hold the phone.

            This has been an interesting conversation, but has it reached a point where accurate Bible understanding has become the exclusive preserve of intellectuals?

            If so, you’re now on very unstable ground. You should know why.

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, too bad bul*****t is worthless, which is all your last comment amounts too. The more you talk, the more you expose your fakeness.

          • outandabout says:

            Hi, Caroline. Settle down, girl lol. As frustrating as it may be, we just have to accept that some people choose to believe and that there are actually worse ways to be. I haven’t read the whole conversation between you and messenger, but I think you’ll find that he’s essentially saying ‘you have to have faith’ and ‘He moves in mysterious ways’, which are non-answers as he knows so avoids actually saying that. He’s a wordsmith. I could be wrong.
            But there are people who have worked out that religion is no more than the formalized panic about the fear of death and if there was no promise of everlasting life, nobody would follow it because there’s no use. Religion poses itself as being all about love but it’s not. It’s all about the selfish pursuit of trying to save ones own butt. Quite dishonest, but once you’ve brainwashed yourself, you’re totally blind to it.

          • Caroline says:

            , @Outandaout, I know you are right about messenger and I should try and understand his position. I had 2 years with my husband to try and understand me before he died, but the more I thought I was making perfect sense to him, the more convinced he was right and I was wrong and finally, I realized it was a losing battle and that was what got him through the thought of facing his death and I understand that fear of death and the thought of the new world can be very comforting to people.

            I will try and not get so offended when messenger keeps inferring that I am just too stupid to understand the Bible like what he thinks he does.

          • messenger says:

            wrong conclusion outandabout

            What I’ve been saying is that she doesn’t interpret the scriptures in the Bible correctly while teaching it like she’s an expert. False interpretations, worse than WT’s. No Christian organizations agrees with hers.

            Your belief that those who follow the Bible are doing it for the reasons you state is merely the type of misrepresentation Caroline is famous for. Even though she might just be famous on this site.

            @flyingabriel

            “Hold the phone.

            This has been an interesting conversation, but has it reached a point where accurate Bible understanding has become the exclusive preserve of intellectuals?” Your comment flyingabriel.

            I didn’t claim that, but stating credentials is not against scriptures. Paul did it Don’t follow Caroline’s mistake and read ideas into written communications that are not there, while not understanding the things that are there.

            I’d still like to know what type of education Caroline has had, and how did she do in her graded studies, not just because she compared my intelligence with the dullest of all pennies in a huge pile, but also because she claims to understand the meaning of scriptures better than all Christians. Who is this person making these great brags? Is she educated, or is she an ex-JW housewife reading things on her own while misrepresenting those? Why didn’t she tell us instead of dodge that point in her response? In her writings she’s always claimed to be a well studied expert reading the Bible more than all Christians do and understanding what it says better than all of them.

            With Caroline that wouldn’t be so bad if every conversation she has had here wasn’t degenerating into Bible put-downs. No matter what the topic of discussion is she changes it to repeat the same old false Biblical interpretations that I saw her post when I first came to this site. That being the case she opened herself up to having her ignorance exposed. Also her pride, since she never admits to being wrong, even when her wrong beliefs have been obviously exposed. If she was a man in WT she’d make the perfect elder, dogmatic, ignorant and clinging to her group like a baby sucking its mama’s tit.

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, I never once implied I was very smart. I only had a high school education. The class I was talking about from last spring was one where seniors can monitor any college class for only $10 so I signed up for the only class I could still get in, which was “Introduction to the Christian Greek Scriptures” which I really enjoyed taking. I learned more in the first 6 hour long classes about the Bible then I did while being a Witness for 50 years from the 1960’s through 2014 when I stopped attending meetings.

            That class was very interesting and I also read and studied all the books that we were assigned to read and study but I did not have to turn in papers etc. like the graded students had to do.

            Each credit at our college (small town but very famous college) costs $1.100.00 so to take any college courses here with 3 credits would cost about $3,300.00 and that does not include books and to get a degree with 118 credits would be about $130,000.00 and of course to get a master’s degree would be a huge amount of money in addition to the bachelor’s degree and besides, at my age of 71, why in the world would I pursue a college degree even if I had the money. I am retired and past that age now.

            I became a Witness right out of high school and in those days it was unthinkable for any Witness to go to college and the only way a person could get a job that wasn’t a factory job and to get a good job in an office, your only option was to secretly take correspondence courses, which a friend of ours did and he landed a decent office job. Otherwise, all the people I knew who were my age were janitors and worked at menial jobs in factories like what my husband did.

            That stance about higher learning of Watchtower has never changed. For anybody to pursue a college education, once they become a Witness, is very much looked down on and discouraged and that is why I am so suspicious of your story with all your college degrees.

            I feel you have no business commenting here about all your “higher” learning when Watchtower made it impossible for all the rest of who they made it impossible for us to get a higher education.

            Just because I did not go to college, does not make me stupid and just because you supposedly went to college does not make you smarter than me when it comes to the Bible.

            The Bible is supposed to be from God. If God wants the whole world not to be destroyed but to come to an accurate knowledge of him so he doesn’t have to kill them, than that Bible should not be so difficult to understand that it take a college degree to understand it.

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, of course no “Christian” organization is going to agree with me because I don’t believe that any part of the Bible is God inspired. LOL

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            While that other information about your life may interest some I only asked about your education, since you claim to be an expert that has read more of the Bible than all Christians, and one who claims to understand it better than them.

            Just to let you know there are only a couple reasons people go to high priced universities, because similar classes teach the same information in all universities. The people that go to high priced ones are either young people who have no life experience, and so attending a specific university is a big thing to them. Or the university is so well known, like Harvard, that attending it might help a graduate obtain a higher paying job.

            Most employers are only concerned if employees can cut it on the job, and like I said, if the universities teach the same classes the info those classes teach is similar, because it’s all taken from the same academic discoveries written down in books, maybe the same book. Some schools do offer programs that are excluded from other universities though.

            Like I thought Caroline you’re not an expert. It appears most of your ideas developed through your own reading and your own interpreting. The truth is most informed Christians in any denomination understand the scriptures better than you. It’s not that they don’t agree with you because you don’t believe in the Bible and they do. Informed Christians understand the messages in scriptures better than you do, because they’ve interpreted those messages more accurately.

            Even though I wasn’t in your one class I’m pretty sure in that class your instructor did not teach the type of ideas that you’ve put forth on this site. Public teachers don’t teach like that (in such opinionated ways). They wouldn’t teach such opinions like the Bible contains many (according to you 100s or 1000s) contradictions. Academic scholars in colleges and universities don’t teach that way. What they would have done in your class is teach what others believe, not their own opinions. When teaching doctrines that means they would have taught the doctrines that are commonly known. Never would they start expressing their opinions like you have, unless it was a teacher who was running his mouth off saying things he wasn’t paid to say.

            Your comments either come just from you, or from some atheists author with a bone to pick, whose understanding of scripture might not be much better than your own. Every derogatory point about the Bible I’ve seen you post can be logically refuted, that’s why Christians don’t agree.

            As far as the historical information you learned about compiling of the Bible, well that’s common knowledge inside Christianity. That’s the sort of thing I would expect a class like the one you named to teach.

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, as long as you have gone to college and taken so many classes, why not take some classes on the Bible? You are so full of S***!

            Every one here knows that teachers in high school and grade schools aren’t going to give any opinions on whether the Bible is correct when it comes to creation and evolution but anyone who knows anything at all about college courses, knows it teaches people to have critical thinking skills and all those courses and books do is state the facts and let the student come to their own conclusions, which is exactly what I did.

            Most of the people who went to my class belonged to a religion and after taking the class, they still belonged to their religion but they were given the facts about the Bible and how it got written and so at least they could make an informed decision.

            Our professor was a former priest and even though he saw all the contradictions in the Bible, he still believed in the bible and in Jesus but he never once tried to give his opinion as to whether or not to believe in the Bible. All of their papers had to do with critical thinking skills when it came to reading the Bible and that was all.

            If you have actually gone to college like you say you did, did you go before or after getting baptized?

            If you were raised in the “truth”, then it is highly unlikely that you going to college was looked at approvingly.

            Like I said, the Watchtower has never changed it’s stance on higher education, that is unless they can use your skills at the Bethels.

            Whenever the rank and file have listened to Watchtower and not gotten a higher education, they work in menial jobs and they have to look at all those who have gone to college after becoming Witnesses and see those people live the good life and never express any bad feelings about them not being able to go to college and live like rats, scrounging for a living and even though they may pretend it doesn’t bother them, I think it does bother them.

            That is why I do not appreciate you coming on here and bragging about all your college education to us. If you did it after being baptized, then you were going against Watchtower and if you did it before coming into the “truth”, then you know full well that you have an advantage over the rest of us who were obedient to the Society.

            Like I said before, the most important thing is the Bible. It is exactly as dee2 said. If God really wrote the Bible and he really doesn’t want to kill the whole world that does not obey him, then he would have made sure that any common person would understand the Bible perfectly and it would not take a college educated person to interpret it to us like the clergy do. It would be simple and full of simple instructions of what is the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do, but instead it is full of all kinds of wrong things to do which is from the god of the Bible, YHVH like for instance, it approves of slavery and the killing of any girl who cannot prove her virginity on her wedding night and the rape victim having to marry her rapist and the killing of their children such as in the case of Jephthah. I could go on but you have already seen some of the scriptures I have listed and the ones that dee2 has listed.

            We are not teaching or giving our opinions. We are giving you Bible scriptures to look up. That is all. You form your own opinions. We have never given our opinions. We are only telling you what your own Bible says.

            It doesn’t take a genius to read the Bible and understand it. It is in English and I can read it just as good as you can.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            I’m not here to hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be ok. The fact that you admit to being the type of person that was sucking WT’s tit and jumped through every hoop it wanted you to doesn’t mean that’s was the best way to live. Look where you ended up because of it. Therefore your claim against my actions for not having been that sort of tit sucker is similar to the way you assess the meaning of scripture, foolishly. I’m not that same type of person as you were, one who must have been terrified not to obey, or too ignorant to realize it was improper to do so in that situation you were in. When I decided to go to college I did it. I didn’t ask WT’s permission. The false teaching about it from WT didn’t hinder me because I recognized it as false. You acted on fear or out of ignorance in following that advice from WT, I didn’t, simple as that.

            Anyway, although not accepting and admitting your ignorance in interpreting scripture, or that you’ve been wrong (even about non-doctrinal matters such as where are the 10 commandments) you did admit where your ideas came from. You! From your comment you stated your college class, ” teaches people to have critical thinking skills and all those courses and books do is state the facts and let the student come to their own conclusions, which is exactly what I did.” (Caroline)The fact that your teacher was and still is a Christian suggests he does not agree with your assessments of what you studied in his class.

          • Shibboleth says:

            It’s a real shame that as of late many of the comments have turned into mud slinging contests 🙁
            But I guess that is a result of religious indoctrination…it’s been going on for centuries. I was hoping the comment section would be more enlightening, wait, I guess it kinda is. Oh well, I’ll check back in a couple of days to see if there is anything more substantial to read.

          • Caroline says:

            Shibboleth, from now on, I will try and keep a civil tongue in my mouth. I am sorry if I offended anybody.

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, we still don”t know anything about your history with the organization. Were you ever an elder?

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, since you figured out years ago already before going to college, that it was not really the “truth”, then why do you still identify yourself as a JW?

          • messenger says:

            Why did Christ identify with the Jewish religion?

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, you tell us why Christ identified with the Jewish religion since it seems to be the same reason you identify yourself with the JW religion.

          • messenger says:

            Shibboleth

            Wake up and smell the coffee. Mud slinging has been going on as long as I’ve been reading comments from this site, and I suspect far longer.

            One advantage of growing up in an American ghetto is that the sanctimonious attitude among that population is not as present as it is in the white world. In that sense people are more honest there. In the white world what people are allowed to get away with as acceptable behavior depends largely on who they are inside the group under consideration. If that hasn’t rubbed off on you, you probably would have noticed mud being slung upon first reading comments here. It’s possible you didn’t because the direction it was slung in makes it acceptable to you, while seeing it slung in another directions it isn’t. The whole reason for this conversation is because mud slinging is going on.

            One perfect example of this is WT’s betrayal of any of its members who don’t agree with everything mama says. And its characterization of them. WT can and always has said any nasty thing about whoever it wants, and yet it cannot accept even a disagreement. That sanctimonious attitude is not exclusive to WT. WT is a mere reflection of our society in that way. An outstanding reflection of it. So, wake up and smell the coffee.

    • messenger says:

      dee2

      The only sense I gave an interpretation of Matt 5:5 was to state what others believe about that scripture. I never interpreted that with my own belief about it on this site. Not that I can remember. But the scriptures you just posted are not contradictory. Don’t you remember Christ’s prayer, “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.” Thus whether a follower goes to heaven our lives on our Earth he/she still belongs to the kingdom of God. I don’t believe your final two scripture relate to the point you wanted to make, that seemed to be the Bible claims some live on Earth and also says some people see the kingdom of God. For all followers of God are his children, and in some sense they will all see God. For instance, upon Christ’s return the scriptures say all eyes will see him, even those not his followers. Another scripture states all will stand before God and Christ, not just their followers.

  26. dee2 says:

    Messenger,

    If the Bible were really the work of a perfect, all-powerful, and loving God, one would reasonably expect it to be superlative in every respect, consistent throughout, as compared to anything that could possibly be conceived by human intellect alone.

    If none of this is necessary for salvation as you claim, then why did God go through the trouble of writing a Bible with 66 books?

    WHY WOULD GOD PREFER A MULTIPLICITY OF DENOMINATIONS SAYING CONFLICTING THINGS?

    Also, if God speaks to Christians and Christians are earnestly and sincerely praying to God to ascertain his will, then why isn’t God telling everyone the same thing?
    Why hasn’t God been crystal clear, unambiguous, and unequivocal in what he tells Christians when he speaks to them so that no room is left for interpretation?

    • dee2 says:

      ****………66 books……
      – 73 if you are Roman Catholic
      – 76 if you are Orthodox Christian
      – 81 if you are Ethiopian Orthodox

      • messenger says:

        dee2

        I believe there is quite a bit of evidence showing you and Caroline don’t understand very simple and explicitly stated written language. Even though I wrote a little on this topic, far less statements than are recorded in the Bible, you cannot even understand or remember my direct statements. You claim I said the opposite of what I wrote. I suggest you go back and examine what I actually said to convince yourselves of your error. Then I suggest practice reading before making any more misleading claims about the Bible. Without very good reading comprehension skills you will never understand it. Of course your mission might be to deceive the ignorant.

        Now, how about at least one admission that you were wrong. If you are honest I see no reason you will not admit to that. Here is a quoted claim of yours.

        “If none of this is necessary for salvation as you claim, then why did God go through the trouble of writing a Bible with 66 books?”dee2

        Now if you are not being dishonest and want to suggest that you have even decent reading comprehension skills why not show your readers where I wrote “none of this is necessary for salvation,” or instead tell us what I actually said, and admit for once that you were wrong. That’s what an honest adult would do. An embarrassed kid, possibly not.

    • dee2 says:

      Messenger,

      You stated in a previous comment:

      [ “The reason why those other Christian denominations are tolerant of different scriptural views is because they recognize that a 100% correct understanding of those points is not necessary for salvation, according to the Bible.”]

      If 100% correct understanding of the different scriptural views is not necessary for salvation as you claim and given that the Bible is the source of the different scriptural views,
      then why did God go through the trouble of writing a Protestant Bible with 66 books  (73 if you are Roman Catholic, 76 if you are Orthodox Christian, 81 if you are Ethiopian Orthodox)?

      • dee2 says:

        God wrote something which people can’t fully understand.
        He has not made it easy for people to understand what he wrote, yet if the difficulty of understanding the Bible makes people not believe in him, he will destroy them.

        • messenger says:

          dee2

          If God wrote the Bible, as you claim, then I suggest you mellow out in what you say about it, and God. If God wrote it as you stated your speech could be dangerous for you and those who believe what you write.

          My comment that a Christian must not have to have a 100% correct understanding of all scriptures to receive salvation, but that he/she could have some incorrect understandings about some scriptures does not mean I said, “none of this is necessary for salvation as you claim”(dee2) I said.

          In the discussions we just finished I agreed with ‘eyes open’ that the scriptural understandings that are necessary for salvation center on Christ. Why do I believe that? Because Christ said it.(John 5:24). One of the reasons scriptures were written the way they were is so that some people would not understand, but argue about those points as you do, while others would understand those points. Why do I believe that? Because Christ said it. That’s why I warn you to be careful, if you also believe what you wrote above that “God wrote the Bible.”

          “He (Christ) said, to you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.” Christ recorded in Luke chp 8.

          The most important messages from God in the scriptures are very simple-easy to understand. Yet some who don’t understand those or believe those simple messages choose to argue over points that are not relevant to those important points, like, which scriptures in the Bible were considered the 10 commandments? Or, why do Christians have conflicting beliefs about some scriptures? Why do they argue such points? Because they don’t believe the Bible or Christ. If they believed in Christ and Christ believed in them such points would not be important. But if a person doesn’t believe then the Bible’s ambiguity, to them, allows them to react in certain ways of rebellion (against God) to display who they are to God.

          Like I said its a choice. What happens to you, including your coming into contact with the scriptures is so you could make that choice. The scriptures were written like they were so that you and others could make that choice and their messages can help you to make it.

          • dee2 says:

            Messenger,

            It is simple.

            If a person doesn’t need 100% correct understanding of the Bible for salvation, then why did God go through the trouble of writing a book which no one can perfectly understand?

            Why didn’t God make it easy for people to understand what he wrote? Yet if the difficulty of understanding the Bible makes people not believe in him, he will destroy them.

          • messenger says:

            dee2
            “Why didn’t God make it easy for people to understand what he wrote? Yet if the difficulty of understanding the Bible makes people not believe in him, he will destroy them.”dee2

            You keep asking the same question. I thought I answered it clearly before. Here’s a final attempt to try and help you get my understanding on it. I believe this understanding is supported in the Bible’s message. Some of the scriptures supporting it I already posted. I don’t wish to post the same but will include a couple more that make the same point.

            As I already stated people don’t follow God just because of the messages he gives them. Regardless of the messages provided by God some people wouldn’t believe in him anyway in the way belief is used at John 3:16. I already answered this question in this same way. The message from God is not what causes people to believe in God. What causes that is the type of persons they are. Believing in God and believing in Jesus is to God and Jesus not just believing they exists as the beings they claim to be. To them it means following them because people choose to (want to). The belief at James 2:29 “yet the demons believe and shudder” is not the way the word believe is used at John 3:16.

            You, by your comments, dictate that God must make you believe like it is used at James 2:29 for you to believe like John 3:16 uses that word. But the scriptures I shared claim that is not the reason you don’t believe in God as required for salvation at John 3:16. So, why should God, if he knows you won’t follow him even if you know he exists care if you know that or not? Your claim that he should care about that makes no sense. why should he? Other than dealing with you in this life, in allowing your existence and the chance to follow him and live, there will be no long term relationship, because you have decided against it, even though he’s extended you his hand. You obviously have made a choice not to take it. Because of that there is no logical reason you could present that God should care if you believe he exists or not. Why should they (God and Christ) care what people think who don’t want to follow them? That thought is included in the statements Christ is recorded as making that I already posted. And what applies to you in this regard applies to all people.

            Just as Caroline has admitted, she only responds to my comments for the sake of others who read those. And I expressed my ditto intention towards hers. Why? Because we both view the other as having made a choice where there will be no meeting of our minds. God and Christ can see our futures. They are in a much better position to know if individuals will follow them in the future than Caroline and I are. And yet Caroline and I have decided to answer each others comments only for the sake of readers. Why is it you expect something more from God and Christ who know for sure if you’ll follow them?

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger you said: “God and Christ can see our futures”.

            That is what Watchtower teaches. I had to give a talk one time saying that Jehovah knows the future. I got it from the Reasoning book. I gave the talk out of the book but I never understood what I was trying to teach to my student in the school because it really makes no sense when you think about it.

            If God and Christ can see our futures then we do not have free will. Think about it.

            If God can see the future then he knew that Adam and Eve would sin.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            If I can see your future would that mean you don’t have free will? Of course not. The same applies to anyone that could see it, including God. Someone knowing what you’d do wouldn’t make you do it. With your reasoning if I know you’ll commit a crime you would blame me for your actions and claim you lacked self control. Nonsense! Try that in a courtroom. Guilty as charged!

            Of course God knew what Adam and Eve would do.

            If you look into what some scientists believe about multiple dimensions you’ll discover they believe any being existing inside the higher dimensions can see into the future and the past. I don’t know if that’s true, nor do I say it’s a Bible thought. It’s what some scientists believe about beings, if those live in a higher number of dimensions than us. I think they believe that ability would start in about the 6th or 7th dimension. But those scientists believe there are at least 10 dimensions, some claim at least 11 and possibly more. You can research string theory, and related articles will inform you of their beliefs.

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, you should look up the January 1, 1951 Watchtower page 31 as that is the question from the readers which read: “If Jehovah is all-powerful and knows the end from the beginning, then he must have known that the covering cherub in Eden would rebel and lead Adam and Eve into rebellion, and thus bring woe upon all mankind. Knowing this beforehand, why did God create these creatures that would fall?”

            They had about as good an answer as anybody else but according to Watchtower Jehovah did know but chose not to know. Does that make any sense to you?

            This is part of their answer:

            “For God to exercise foreknowledge concerning their case would have been to predistinate them, because that foreknown course would then have been required to fit God’s foreknowledge. In which case Adam and Eve and the covering cherub would not have stood a chance of going straight. That would be unjust on God’s pat, to set before them verbally an opportunity to enjoy everlasting life in happiness in a righteeous world, whereas all the while he foreknew and hence predestinated that they would never make it. It would be raising false hopes, which would be deceptive and unfair.

            I can’t think of the scriptures now but there are scriptures that say that Jehovah hated Esau before he was even born, which indicates foreknowledge of God and that means no free will.

            You can dance around predestination and free will all day long if you want to, but no matter how you slice it, you do not have free will if Jehovah already knows what you will do before you are even born.

          • messenger says:

            Caroline

            I thought you would have figured out by now that I don’t hang my hat on what WT says. I’ve been pretty direct in saying that. I don’t give their opinions any more credibility than yours. Both you and they add opinions not stated in scripture and present those as facts.

            No doubt you’ve read Jehovah’s claim he is the one telling the end from the beginning, Isa 46:10. To tell that it shows he knows all things before those happen, from their beginnings. And multiple scriptural citations back that up.

            The WT claim that God can see the future but doesn’t choose to look at times regarding things of such significance is stupid and just their opinion. There is no scriptural reference to back that claim. Therefore they won’t give a scriptural reference to make their point. The scriptures contradict it. Those state God chose us (Christians) before the founding of the word, speaking of those who do follow him. Eph 1:4

            I already addressed the opinionated nonsense about the predestination claim in the comment you responded to. Knowing what some will choose to do is not predestining them to do it. They had a choice and made it. But the scriptures do speak of God as creating them in a sense, because he allows them to make that choice even though it doesn’t benefit them. Still the choice is theirs not God’s. Romans 9:19-24

            Again, no need quoting WT to me to make your points, I’m not interested in their opinions. Those running WT are not who they claim to be. So please don’t reference them to support a Bible interpretation on my behalf. Their pretense to be who they are not disgust me! As does their rejection of Bible truths.

        • messenger says:

          Caroline

          Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.

          That is very easy to prove or disprove. Why refer to a Bible reference and not what’s right in front of us? If your view is correct and God wills all choices people make then he willed you not to follow him and he willed me to follow him. Is that what you believe, if in fact God exists?

          • Caroline says:

            Messenger, you really don’t understand the correlation between free will, foreknowledge and predestination and no there is no easy explanation about it. If you believe in the god of the Bible, then you believe in foreknowledge, which means if the Bible is right, that Jehovah knows the end from the beginning, then He knows what will happen in the future even when it comes to what humans do, even before they do it.

            That is what you believe. Just because the Bible claims that your god can do that, that doesn’t make it a fact and you can not explain it because it takes away a person’s free will.

            You might think you are so smart that only you can understand it and can explain it but you are not that smart. The smartest people in the world who claim to believe in any god can not explain it. They just say you have to take it on faith.

            You do not know if I will die in a car accident tomorrow and neither does any god. If I am in the wrong place at the wrong time, that is why I will die. If God knew ahead of time when I was going to die, then that means that he maneuvered for when I got up and when I left and He did the same thing for the people that were in the other car that ran into me etc. etc. which means that when somebody dies in a car accident, that God knew ahead of time when they were going to get up and take off and same for the other car and on and on. He would have known ahead of time when my parents were going to grow up and have sex and which sperm was going to unite with which egg from the mother etc. etc.

            None of those things can be known. It’s a fantasy that you believe in. It has to be taken on faith, which means you have no evidence for such a belief.

            Explaining it away by saying that if a person commits a crime and then if you knew ahead of time and me blaming you for the crime is nothing but a red herring to distract from the real question of free will.

          • messenger says:

            “The smartest people in the world who claim to believe in any god can not explain it. They just say you have to take it on faith.” Your quote Caroline

            That those ones you claim are “the smartest people in the world” is an opinion. I don’t believe they are/were the smartest because they processed information incorrectly. I’m familiar with John Calvin and his doctrine, but I don’t agree he was the smartest in the world. No Christians that I know agree with him. Having followers and getting your name in history books doesn’t correlate with peoples’ intelligence.

            There are one or two of my comments awaiting moderation on this predestination point of yours. Those give a scriptural answer to it. I’ll not repeat any of that information here.

            It’s not that the smartest Christians believe in predestination but cannot explain it. It’s just that some Christians do, John Calvin possibly being the most famous one. None that I personally know today believe it that I’m aware of. The fact that people who do cannot explain it shows the idea is not Biblical. Ideas in the Bible can be explained or there would be no purpose in those to be written down. Interpretations are just sometimes different because of people (as Calvin shows), and the time God allows understanding of some points is sometimes moved into the future.

            Foreknowledge has nothing to do with predestination. Are you claiming it only does with God, he being creator? Because with any other being there would be no argument to make at all that it does. For instance, let’s take an example of that scientific belief in 10 dimensions. Those scientists believe any being aware of and living inside their 6th dimensions would be able to look into their future accurately. Theoretically if there are billions of beings living inside the 6th dimension, then according to your logic, all would have to have willed you to do every act you do, and they would have all had to have willed each other to do every act each other does. If that were true whose will would they be following? It would have to be a collective will which means there would be no disagreements. Yet there are. So,the idea sounds ridiculous, because their foreknowledge does not mean they would have that effect on each other or you.

            God’s foreknowledge does not mean people have to do what he wills either, just because he is creator. The whole Bible claims most people do not do God’s will. So while Calvin and some Christians believe in predestination I don’t know of any that do. Just as you get some of your Biblical interpretations wrong so did Calvin. I’m sure you’ve read “he (God) is patient with you because he does not want any to be destroyed.” Just one of the scriptures identifying free will. Your thought that the Bible teaches God decides all actions for everyone and yet most people don’t follow his directions is what’s contradictory.

            Anyway, I don’t wish to go any more rounds on this subject. I covered this in the past under a different article with either you or dee2.

    • dee2 says:

      Messenger,

      You have absolved the Bible of any culpability and placed the reason for the multiplicity of Christian denominations and interpretations solely on humans.

      The problem is not with humans. THE PROBLEM IS THE BIBLE ITSELF.

      The bible does not have a consistent doctrine running through it. It offers more than one theological position. That would explain the multitude of interpretations that can be gleaned from it on pretty much any and every issue.

      Take your interpretation of Matthew 5:5 for example.
      In the Beatitudes/so-called Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 – 7) Jesus declared certain types of people to be happy or blessed, and in each case he makes a promise concerning their future. Among the promises that Jesus makes are:

      –  the kingdom of the heavens belong to them (Matthew 5:3, 10, 12, 19 – 20; 7:21)
      –  they will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)
      –  they will see God (Matthew 5:8)
      –  they will be called sons of God (Matthew 5:9)

      So you could inherit the earth or be in heaven.

      If the Bible were really the work of a perfect, all-powerful, and loving God, one would reasonably expect it to be superlative in every respect – crystal clear, consistent throughout – as compared to anything that could possibly be conceived by human intellect alone.

      WHY WOULD GOD PREFER A MULTIPLICITY OF DENOMINATIONS SAYING CONFLICTING THINGS?

      A perfect, omnipotent God would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which s/he inspired.

      Also, if God speaks to Christians and Christians are earnestly and sincerely praying to God to ascertain his will, then why isn’t God telling everyone the same thing?
      Why hasn’t God been crystal clear, unambiguous, and unequivocal in what he tells Christians when he speaks to them so that no room is left for interpretation?

      • outandabout says:

        I think you’ll find that believing is a need, Dee. It doesn’t matter how much you argue, the bible seems to have an answer for every situation. If you need scripture that say’s ‘look before you leap’, it’s there. If you need to hear ‘he who hesitates is lost’, you’ll find that too, but believers just turn a blind eye to the contradictions because of their need. They equate their common sense screaming out to them as demons trying to get at them, so they shut their common sense on the subject down. They don’t want to know. To them, to wake up is to die.
        Who was that group about twenty yrs ago went up a mountain to hitch a ride on a spaceship that was following in the wake of the Hale-Bop comet? Anyway, nothing happened and when asked about it they replied “Jesus saved us”. So, yeah, just retreat into the un-provable and things will be fine again.

      • messenger says:

        dee2

        Yes I have. But not just me, so have people claiming to be Christians. That puts the number who have done so in the billions. Also, practicing Jews have done so.

  27. messenger says:

    Is this a tacit agreement by JF Rutherford that he did not really believe the International Bible Students (aka, whose future name is JWs) in 1919 were members of the group WT calls the remnant of 144,000 spiritual Israelites? Because in 1919 JWs believed and taught what Rutherford claims would exclude them from that group, and make them a part of the group of people that did not understand (God’s word), making it impossible from WT standards for them to be considered part of that remnant. Note-WT taught the pyramid ‘Gizeh’ theology until 1928.

    “The remnant now ‘see visions’; that is to say, are given an understanding of things not heretofore understood. A special blessing is the remnant deciphering the code signs of the book of Revelation; also those who love righteousness, and hear and obey what they understand, will be blessed. Those who ‘hate instruction and cast the Word of the Lord behind them,’ who take away from God’s Word of Revelation or who add thereto by adding the signs such as the pyramid of Gizeh, will not understand,–Ps 50:17; Dan 12:10; Rev. 22:19” Light Book One pg 12 written by JF Rutherford acting president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

    The significance of this, if it really reflects the beliefs JF Rutherford had, is that WT claims in 1919 Christ and his father chose the WT, and placed it above all other Christian denominations by making it their one acceptable spokesman and revealer of correct Bible truths. Might it be that JF Rutherford really didn’t believe that, and his real belief slipped into print among his many words of publication?

  28. eyes opened says:

    okay throwing this out there…Dee2, Messenger, Caroline… what if the multiplicity in christian religions is because Jesus said the wheat and the weeds would grow together? What religion you call yourself might not matter in the least. I view myself as a spiritual person not a religious person. The one thing Watchtower got right is when it said “religion is a snare and a racket”. Perhaps the challenge isn’t what the Bible says but rather individuals who are unwilling to admit they don’t understand something but insist others accept their views. Jesus words are not the problem, rather it’s men who want to make Jesus words apply to a time-frame they obviously don’t and trying to make Jesus words give them the authority and stature they obviously don’t have.

    Regards

    • dee2 says:

      eyes opened,

      [ “what if the multiplicity in christian religions is because Jesus said the wheat and the weeds would grow together? “]

      The main reason why there is a multiplicity of Christian denominations is because THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE BIBLE ITSELF:

      1. There is no universally accepted Bible canon:

      – 66 books for the Protestants
      – 73 for Roman Catholics
      – 76 for Orthodox Christians
      – 81 for Ethiopian Orthodox Christians

      2. Because of the way in which the Bible is written. It is a mish-mash of different schools of thought/different belief systems. The bible therefore does not have a consistent doctrine running through it. It offers more than one theological position.

      I will provide examples of this later.

      • eyes opened says:

        I really thought the only position to concern ourselves with is Jesus teachings I.e. the kingly law of love, the example of the Good Samaritan, loving and providing for your family, generosity to others, fruitage of the spirit, sermon on the mount, and so on. I do realize there’s a lot more to the Bible but these seem to be the things important to Christ…no mish mash here…no wonderous interpretation needed. I take the position that Armageddon was the destruction of Jerusalem, that all anointed were sealed in the first century, that we are currently in the “1000” year reign (obviously not a literal number) and that this is the time period when we prove who we are as individuals and what kind of heart we have. The Bible promises more good things to come in the meantime we just do our best, and if we don’t always do our best..try again. We do live in a dangerous world that creates horrors for many people and I do find myself asking how much longer…but we also live in a time of advancement like never before in human history and that excites me and I choose to embrace the good. Sorry sometimes my soapbox is a little hard to climb down from, lol. I will tell you, this is a far cry from who I was as part of the core of the congregation for 40 plus years and I have good memories, it wasn’t all negative for me but once my eyes were opened I began to experience a freedom and joy so much greater. I tend to be a glass half full kind of person anyway. Bottom line, I have no use for any religious organization but I understand the sacrifices involved in making choices because I have been a victim of my choices. Hate speech is what some of my family has said to me and my spouse. But those kinds of words are always uttered out of earshot of their would be admirers. They can’t have people knowing the cruelty they are capable of. And there are those that would applaud their treacherous behavior. I would not criticize others who choose to stay in the org. because the sacrifice is too great. Sadly most don’t see the dirt that this org has swept under the carpet and tried to keep out of sight. But that huge lump under the carpet is starting to trip people and get noticed and I’m glad.

        Regards

        • dee2 says:

          eyes opened,

          [ “…..sermon on the mount, and so on………I do realize there’s a lot more to the Bible but these seem to be the things important to Christ…no mish mash here..…….no wonderous interpretation needed.” ]

          There is a mish-mash of different ideas in the Sermon on the Mount – for example, you could inherit the earth or go to heaven:

          In the Beatitudes/so-called Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 – 7) Jesus declared certain types of people to be happy or blessed, and in each case he makes a promise concerning their future. Among the promises that Jesus makes are:

          –  the kingdom of the heavens belong to them (Matthew 5:3, 10, 12, 19 – 20; 7:21)
          –  they will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)
          –  they will see God (Matthew 5:8)
          –  they will be called sons of God (Matthew 5:9)

          If people feel they are going to inherit the earth they are correct.

          If people feel that they are going to be in heaven, they are correct too.

          I will provide other examples later.

        • dee2 says:

          The Bible does no have a consistent doctrine running through it. It offers more than one theological point of view:

          For example:
          Will the earth last forever?

          YES, the earth will last forever:
          – Ecclesiastes 1:4 
          – Psalm 37:29
          – Psalm 104:5
          – Psalm 78:69
          – Deuteronomy 4:40

          NO, the earth will not last forever, it will be destroyed:
          – 2 Peter 3:10, 13
          – Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33
          – Hebrews 1:10 – 11
          – Isaiah 51:6
          – Isaiah 65:17
          – Psalm 102: 25 – 26
          – Revelation 20:11
          – Revelation 21:1

    • Sharon Christensen says:

      With you there…Eyes Opened….

  29. dee2 says:

    SALVATION – What does one need to do to be saved?

    1. Faith alone, good works do not save – Most modern-day evangelical Christians:
    – Ephesians 2:8-9
    – Titus 3:5
    – Acts 16:30-31
    – Romans 1:16; 3:20, 28; 4:2,3,13
    – John 3:16,18

    2. Faith & water baptism – Modern-day Lutheran, Seventh-Day Adventist and Oneness Pentecostal churches:
    – Mark 16:16; 1:9; 4:1
    – John 3:5, 22; 4:1
    – Matthew 3:2, 6; 13 – 17; 28: 19
    – Luke 3:21

    3. Faith & works – Roman Catholic Church:
    – James 2: 14 – 24

    4. Predestination, a person’s belief and actions are both irrelevant God has chosen some for salvation and some for damnation, and nothing anyone can do will alter their status from one category to another – Calvinists:
    – Ephesians 1:4,5
    – John 6:44; 12:37-40
    – Acts 13:48
    – Matthew 22:14
    – 1 Peter 2:6-8
    – Romans 8:29-33; 11:7,8; 9:14-24

    5. Works only, our eternal fate will be decided based on our deeds in this life – Liberal/Progressive Christians including Unitarian Universalists:
    – 2 Corinthians 5:10
    – Matthew 16:27; 19: 16 – 21; 25: 31 – 46
    – John 5:29
    – Romans 2:6,7

    The Bible is not consistent on the most critical issue of salvation hence the conflicting salvation theologies.

  30. messenger says:

    dee2

    You post so many scriptures and repeat those with comments on the same points. Are you counting field service time? Or anti-field-service time for anyone or any organization?

  31. eyes opened says:

    Hi Dee2, you have certainly done a lot of research, kudos to you. I haven’t managed to look into all the information yet but I did find it interesting with your take on the earth being destroyed. The statements Jesus made about heaven and earth passing away I understand to be an emphatic statement. This was to emphasize the confidence we could have in Jesus words when he was making his point about his prophecies in Matthew coming true. It’s the same as when we make statements such as “over my dead body”, “when hell freezes over”, “when pigs fly”, the statements we make to emphasize a point. Even the comment Peter made about heaven and earth passing away was not representative of the literal heaven and earth. I feel fairly confident you already know these things. At any rate I don’t see all the contradiction in the Bible that you say exists, but thanks for all your efforts.

    Regards

    • dee2 says:

      eyes opened,

      [ “Even the comment Peter made about heaven and earth passing away was not representative of the literal heaven and earth.” ]

      The earlier verses of 2 Peter 3 clearly indicate that the writer meant that the literal earth would be destroyed by fire.

      2 Peter 3: 3 – 7:
      ” knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

      For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world 
      that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. ”

      The Bible presented Noah’s flood as a literal flood that destroyed the world, so if the first destruction of the world was a literal destruction, why would the second destruction not be literal too?

      Just as Jesus had done in Matthew 24, the writer compared the coming of Jesus to the coming of Noah’s flood, which I am sure you believe was real.

      If this “world” that was going to be destroyed by fire and the fire was only symbolic, the analogy would become meaningless. 

      The writer said that “the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water,” and he didn’t just mean that the world that existed then perished symbolically. 

      If the first destruction in the analogy was a literal destruction of the whole world, why wouldn’t the second one also be a literal destruction of the whole world?

      This text was therefore predicting a literal end of the world by fire.

      • eyes opened says:

        Ahhh, perhaps I misunderstood…for some reason I had the idea you meant a literal destruction of the earth rather than the world of mankind. Since it was only people and not the whole planet destroyed in the flood then Peter would also have to have been referencing the world of mankind. I do believe the literal earth is to remain, not so sure about the parts of mankind that are bent on destroying the earth and their fellow man. I still believe there will be divine intervention just not sure it will be in my lifetime. As to the flood, (“which I’m sure you believe is real”) I’m not presently convinced it was global. Science has made some interesting discoveries about the flood being a more localized event but still significantly large enough that people at that time may have thought it was global. I haven’t researched it enough to make a personal determination about it. When it comes to the creation account and even the flood account I’m less convinced of the accuracy but more concerned with the lessons to be learned; such as we do have a creator and he does have standards he wants us to live by. When it comes to creation I’m convinced more and more by all the marvelous discoveries throughout the universe that we do have a creator and I also think evolution may be what was used to bring about the various species within “kinds”. I know I’ve drifted way off subject. Sorry…my world of associates is still fairly limited on the “outside” and it’s just such a delight to freely express myself. Have a good one.

        Regards

        • dee2 says:

          eyes opened,

          If Peter’s analogy of the flood is to be adhered to then yes, Peter’s prediction is that people will be destroyed and the earth will remain so you are correct on this one.

          But that still leaves scriptures like:

          Psalm 102:25-26:
          “In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
          They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded.”

          Isaiah 51:6:
          “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke,
          the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies.
          But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.”

          Hebrews 1:10 – 12
          ” He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
          They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
          You will roll them up like a robe;
          like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”

          Regarding Jesus’ analogy in Matthew 24 about the end of the world and the Flood:
          Jesus said his coming and the end of the world would be a global event so it doesn’t seem that Jesus believed that the Flood was a localized even though scientists have made some interesting discoveries about the flood being a localized event.

        • dee2 says:

          eyes opened,

          In one of your comments you stated:

          [ “I take the position that Armageddon was the destruction of Jerusalem” ]

          In another comment you also stated:

          [ “I still believe there will be divine intervention just not sure it will be in my lifetime.” ]

          Please explain – If Armageddon has already occurred is there another act of divine intervention yet to come?

          • eyes opened says:

            Dee2
            According to Revelation when Satan and his hordes surround the camp of the holy ones then fire is to come down and consume them. I believe that is still yet to happen, although not much info is in the scriptures to identify this time period. Just that it’s after the 1000 yrs. have ended which is evidently a figurative number. There are several bits of evidence that line up for my conclusion that the destruction of Jerusalem was Armageddon. Mostly from Matthew 24… happens after the great tribulation which Jesus said that generation would see, he said their house would be abandoned to them…throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God referred to his people as an adulterous prostitute… Revelation refers to Babylon the great as a whore…who fits all those different identifying marks better than the one guilty of killing all the prophets and even their own Messiah all the while shouting we have no king but Caesar. So if we are indeed in the millennium then we are waiting on the release of Satan, his gathering of supporters and then going forth as Revelation speaks of and to their eventual destruction. Honestly with the dangers and atrocities taking place I do wonder if this is the time Satan has been let loose. It’s crazy that mankind could make such marvelous advances in so many areas and yet there are those that can sink to the lowest levels of depravity. Who knows????

            Regards

  32. outandabout says:

    Hi eyes opened, interesting that you mention human advances because as you may have noticed, scientists now have gene editing technology which enables the removal of mutations from human embryo. Mutations and disease now, personality traits later. Goodbye ‘original sin’.

    • eyes opened says:

      Hi outandabout,
      Yes what you mention reminds me of the movie Gattaca, haha. Well when they can eliminate the breakdown of cells and death that will really be goodbye to “original sin”…At present I’m just excited to find out I may have Neanderthal DNA, LOL.

  33. Sharon Christensen says:

    Who has poo…fling it now? Duh! :(…readin all these comments, I mist another Scientology epi. Oh well…all the above very interesting….Keep it commng…Site like this mks it seem…one has family! ;). Best to all…

  34. usyankee says:

    Is anyone aware that Watchtower OWNS Facebook stock? I read it somewhere online (also Disney stock). This is not info on the Smoking Gun videos. I know Disney Wild Kingdom shows FBI symbols of boy lovers all over the ride, but I didn’t think the Facebook stocks were anything until now.

  35. Peter jones says:

    It’s lovely being a Jehovah’s witness. It really is. Really lovely. Awesome. Lovely.

  36. mandaley says:

    Facebook is controlled by the C.I.A. Their misinformation won’t be complete until everything you believe is false. They’ll censure the truth and promote the false and degrading.