It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWWatch.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website historically sought to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that was conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking.
Subsequent surveys have allowed in excess of 6,000 per year to express their true feelings about the organization and its leadership, and we are optimistic this number will only increase as JWsurvey grows in popularity.
As we move into 2021, JW Survey has become JW Watch. The John Cedars YouTube Channel has become the Lloyd Evans Channel.
These changes represent where we are as a unified team, dedicated to accurate, non-sensational news about the activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their leadership. You will see content that represents investigative reporting, documentary, and occasionally opinions about the state of affairs of more than 8 million members of the Witness faith.
A website for all
This website has been created and made available as a free resource so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about Watchtower and the increasingly cult-like direction in which it is headed.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored the survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
My name is Lloyd Evans, and I am the founder of this website. I set it up in October 2011 with the help of a fellow activist while I was still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, writing under the pseudonym “John Cedars.” Eventually, I left the organization for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization. I don’t consider many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body to have been formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows:
Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home.
But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees:
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age (sometimes as young as 9), are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said:
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its annual surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that truly reflects the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
is it true as a jw your wife isn’t allowed to give you a bj?
Thanks for your writings if the input I use often in debate with a very rabid “omniscient” JW
I was wondering if you could write a bit about the subject NWT – And GB’s claims: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989250
Definition: A translation of the Holy Scriptures made: directly from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek into modern-day English
by a committee of anointed witnesses of Jehovah.
Have you ever thought about the fact that GBs theology is not consistent with the “Christian Greek Scriptures” – despite GB’s:
“carefully in conjunction with the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek basic text” –
On the title page of the 1984 NWT?
Moreover there isn’t any “basic texts” = Original Text of any of the languages.
You could maybe also write about “the anointed” – and Who anointed them?
I fully support this site because so far it has stated only the truth as I know it after 62 yrs. in this cult.
GREAT,I LOVED
When I read your postings, I noticed that you are very critical about the GB and other JW’s putting “spin” into their comments, opinions, positions and such. However, I also notice that your comments and postings, blogs, etc. are very slanted in a negative way, not a neutral one. Therefore, you can and do regularly put your own “spin” on these subjects, especially in a way so as to put a bad light on these people. Doesn’t that make you just as guilty as you say they are?
You and I both know that anyone can take a bit of statistical information, letters, opinions and end up making them anything you want them to be. I find your website to be one that has a definite goal of putting the JW organization in a bad light and although not directly, drawing people away from the truth of the matter, indirectly, it is apparent that you do NOT want any of your readers to get ANY positive info about the group.
Hello RJ, welcome to JWsurvey and thank you for commenting. I’m sorry my articles don’t live up to your expectations. However, you must understand that, from my perspective, this is a natural and expected response from someone who has been indoctrinated to think of Watchtower as God’s sole channel of communication with mankind. ANY criticism of Watchtower, however justified, would grate on someone who is under this kind of influence.
With this in mind, allow me to “cut to the chase,” as it were.
Either Watchtower, or the religion it advocates for Jehovah’s Witnesses, is true – or it isn’t. If it is true, then you should be able to answer the “Cedars Challenge” in the video below, and collect your prize (taking this website offline) for doing so. If, however, the Jehovah’s Witness religion ISN’T true, then it is extremely damaging. Why? Because families are being needlessly broken up through shunning for a religion that isn’t true, and people are dying in hospitals through refusing medical treatment for a religion that isn’t true. That’s just two examples, I could give you others.
So, if I am wrong, I look forward to your response to the challenge below…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ2lMsmjQY0
Now is your opportunity RJ. Let us hear all the good things about the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
MAybe my personal experience and knowledge is warped and slanted. Being a JW was certainly the worst aspect of my childhood by far. The idea that before the end of the 20th century, God was due to execute, at Armageddon, all the world’s non JWs, a crowd that would include most of my firends and family, and me too, unless I became a good enough JW, gave me nightmares.
As an adult I have discovered more of the achievements of the organisation. They include split families through shunning, deaths through refusal of blood, a string of duff prophecies, doctrinal flip flops galore and protection of paedophiles.
Thus far, as you might gather, RS, I am not very impressed with the JW track record. Maybe you are right. Perhaps my view is warped and one sided. Please enlighten, me, Cedars and others and tell us all the good things that the Watchtower has done and is doing!
@RJ. I have been reading on this site for 9 months now and have never seen any comments from John Cedars that is critical of Jehovah’s Witnesses as a people. He is nothing but sympathetic. His comments and most of the rest of us who comment though are critical of the Governing Body because they are the ones responsible for the cover ups and lies and the enforced shunning for those who would like to get away from this religion in peace. That is the John Cedars that I see. If you can show me that I didn’t waste the 48 years of my 68 years on this earth defending a poisonous cult, I for one am anxious to hear it by you giving us some evidence that God is directing this uninspired, God-directed true prophet as they claim and chose it in 1919 as they claim.
If you are open minded enough, read Don Cameron’s Captives of a Concept or The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonsson and you will reach the same conclusions as most of us posting on this site. If you are banned from reading these books, ask yourself why????? If you really have the “truth”, the “truth” will stand up to lies……
@RJ. Not to get in a long debate bc WT Apologists have their own agenda.
I as a former long time Elder who left over18 years ago feel that this site is not a derogatory JW site. This site is a way to look at the WT from an open perspective and asks he logical intelligent questions that we as JW’s or former JW’s or “Approved Associates” or extended family and friends of JW’s have always wanted to ask and always wondered about but were NOT ALLOWED to ask or question bc of the GASTAPO GB and the continual threat of Shunning and being DF’s and cut off from your family, friends and others for “THINKING” out loud. JR. BE honest with yourself. Like we al say and even the WT says, If it is the truth it should be able to hold up to any challenge or questions about their past, present and future right? The truth should have nothing to hide. The WT rewrites their own history. They change things anytime they want to. They flip flop on most teachings. they come up with the strangest bible interpretations of any religion and then change it 1,2,3- years later and no one is supposed to question it?
My wife is still a STAUNCH JW and a pioneer. We get into debates continually as she serves the men in Brooklyn. I continually ask her and even did today. If the Jw’s are right and have the Truth please tell me 1 prophecy that they have predicted out of he many hundreds over the last 100 plus years that have come true? Can you give me just 1? From the king of the North, to 1925, gog of magog, to 1925, 1975, 2000, to the F&D slave, where Jehovah dwells,( one time they believed he had his own private planet? ) Sounds mormonish to me?
Her answer tonight was yes, I can tell you! Ok What I asked. She said 1914!
Oh man, that opened up a can of worms. She blurted out what she hears. She knows 1914 is not true bc he and I have discussed it before but this time she started saying how it was the first time in history that so many nations got together for a war? So what. Other ward have killed millions more than WW1 of course the WT never brings that historical point up. So this is the bottom line RJ. Thers is not one, I repeat not one clear prophecy or prediction the JW’s can prove they prophesied correctly in over 125 years. I ask you if that is true then
how can they claim to have the “truth”? this doesn’t even consider their wacko teachings on many other things. Can you provide us with 1 prophecy that came true from the JW’s? Just 1 please.
RJ,
I would be delighted to read some “positive info on the group”. It does not make me jump for joy to have to return to this organisation after twenty years to highlight the immoral activities of this so called Christian organisation.
The trouble is, RJ, I can’t find any on JW.org or in the WTBTS’ publications! I find examples of spin, dishonest quoting, omission of pertinent facts and rules that are far from Christian.
I would be very interested in your viewpoint on three issues that I find very important.
The first is the WTBTS’ child protection policy. I have carried out research on this topic and I have found no protection for children or young people whatsoever. What do you think is best about the WTBTS’s child protection policy?
The second is the non existent protection of women from domestic abuse. Have you read the WTBTS’s position on this? Do you think it is right to encourage a woman to stay in an abusive relationship and not to be able to divorce on this grounds and not be remarried “in the Lord”?
The third is the shunning of Ex JWs by their families. Do you think that this is right? Can you point me to a verse in the Bible where Jesus shunned someone?
Please, RJ, relate your opinion on these very important issues. I am genuinely interested in your point of view.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
RJ – please note the reaction you have caused. There are several of us waiting to hear something utterly novel. We have studied the history and doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and have failed to find anything positive therein.
It is your duty to help us, unless, of course you feel we deserve an imminent execution for failing to see any positive aspects of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you are a genine believing and practising Jehovah’s Witness you must believe that we genuinely deserve a soon to be delivered Armageddon death penalty at the hands of Jehovah for failure to devote our lives once again to following the edicts of the Governing Body.
Help us JR. It is your duty to us, to yourself, and, of course, to Jehovah.
Come on RJ! Let us hear all the good things about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Enlighten us!
As Cedars says in his vid. no JW has risen to his challenge.
Be the first!
When all of us doubters are convinced that JWdom is true we will, of course, seek reinstatement and dedicate our lives to spreading the JW message in the short time that remains before Armageddon.
We will no longer try and expose the apparently murderous blood ban amd the shunning. We will realise that these are necessary to fulfil Jehovah’s will and to aid us and others in surviving Armageddon.
You have a golden opportunity to enhance your status at your local Kingdom Hall, to improve your image in the eyes of Jehovah and to save us lost sheep from Armageddon execution.
We know the reason for the delay could not possibly be that you lack the evidence for presenting JW TRUTH as true. If it were not true, of course you would not seek to either belong to or defend the Watchtower.
So, come on RJ. A hungry readership (and great rewards) await.
Well RJ, you can now join the long list of JW apologists and defenders who have come on this site, and, when challenged to present evidence for the Governing Body’s extraordinary claims of divine appointment, have disappeared.
Obviously you cannot provide any evidence to even suggest that JW TRUTH is true. It clearly is not. There is no evidence, of course, to connect the JW Governing Body with the Faithful and Discreet Slave of Matthew 24. That is the basis for the entire authority wielded by the JW bosses. The claim, and thus the Gov. Bod’s authority, is utterly bogus.
It would be interesting, however, RJ, to hear exactly what you JW defenders do when faced with the fact that you cannot justify your cruel and ridiculous beliefs. I am presuming, of course that you can understand why the JW central and ruling obsession, of looking forward to that mega orgy of destruction, Jehovah’s execution, at Armageddon, of nigh on 7 billion of your fellow humans, is perverse and obscene in the extreme.
Now you know, RJ, that you can find no evidence to support your horrible beliefs, can you please enlighten us as to what you are going to do? Will you creep back to the Kingdom Hall and desperately try and convince yourself that, despite the total absence of evidence, JW TRUTH is truly truthfully true? Will you shrink from the challenge of remodelling your life, and instead fritter it away as an unpaid mag pusher for a corrupt global publishing and property corporation?
As you must know, apart from making bogus claims, JWdom’s only other credits are the thousands of unnecessary deaths through its blood transfusion ban, its protection of paedophiles through its two witness rule, its split families through shunning, and the stunted lives through the ban on so many social occasions and its discouragement of education once the abilty to read JW mags and parrot their contents has been acquired.
Keep in touch, RJ. We are curious to know how you disappeared guys react, (or at least how you react, as, no doubt everyone behaves differently).
I hope you find a better way of life. You are worth more than to waste your life working as a slave for a bunch of geezers in New York who care nothing about you beyond your ability to enhance their organisation’s capital value.
They don’t really get involved too much in that anymore. But I think very recently yes. But I’ve not seen any specification like that anywhere of late. Only specifically speaks of sexual acts by name in relation to pre-marital acts that I’m aware of myself.
I have been away from my computer for a bit, so I did not see any of the replies to my comments until today. So, now I would like to comment again about what I was saying:
The blogs of this website’s owner is contrary to what he claims. He says he is not persuading anyone in any direction and the website is simply for information. He also allows such despicable comments such as the one in June by Steve Cowton to remain on his site. Very little was said in response to my statements, just people taking the opportunity to blast their biased voice about a matter that I did not even raise.
Now as to all of you who replied to my original comment. I never once said anything to defend my personal beliefs or to attempt to change anyone’s mind about anything other than to state that this web site appears to be nothing more than a bunch of JW haters spouting out about their personal opinions.
Review every one of the replies to my comment. People just waiting to pounce with their hate, sarcasm, innuendos, name calling and personal attacks on others including me.
I laugh at the notion that those who have a positive view of JW’s disappear and do not return to the blogs on this site because of their fear of being wrong and it being exposed. Read the hate speech directed at me and you will see why they would stay away.
You commenters have no idea who I am, anything about me and yet you gang up on someone whose views differ from yours. You are very quick to degrade and spew hatred, but where is your heart? Do you have anything positive to say that might enlighten a person toward what is true? Or are you simply, hate-filled disgruntled past members who have an axe to grind?
I nave no intention of trying to convince anyone of you whether JWs are right or wrong. That was not my intent when I made my initial comment. I was simply pointing out that the owner of this site appears to be somewhat deceptive in what he says is this site’s purpose.
It appears that this site is a place for the haters and people with strong negative views to spout out about their position. That’s all I was trying to point out. From the replies to my comment, you have all made it plainly evident that this site is effective in quashing opposing views using the silly, unkind and loveless dialog as can read here.
I do not feel it to be my responsibility to try to convince anyone of anything. I do not owe anything to any of you responders, except to extend the love demonstrated by Jesus. I get the strong impression that most of you have a great knowledge of or have preciously been a JW. It’s obvious you have made your choice of which I have no problem with.
I may choose to comment more and on the other hand I may not. It did not take much time to post my original comment and I am not sorry that I did it. However, I am not desiring to get into long debates. I have friends that are JWs who have treated me much better than any of you have here. Also, my time is valuable to me and I desire to spend it on happy, uplifting and fun activities instead of hate talk and bad vibes about people I do not even know.
Finally, I am not in fear of any of you or your views about my friends or about me for that matter. If I do not return it will simply be that I do not desire an extension of what has already appears to be a bunch of bullies ganging up on the new boy in town.
P.S. Have any of you, including the owner of this blog read the posted guidelines? Try, it, you will be enlightened.
By the way Mr Cedars,
I read your response again and you certainly initiated the attacks on me and even accusing me of being “indoctrinated”. You do not know who I am, what I my religious beliefs are, nor what “influence” I am under. Keep with the guidelines of YOUR blog and stick to the point. Try answering the questions I brought up to you instead of violating YOUR guideline of “Religious Neutrality”.
You appear to be anything but neutral. Also, try to calm down Mr. Nelkin, he is obviously so excited to dominate this blog, me and probably others, you risk turning your “survey” and so-called religiously neutral blog into a mouth piece for this very biased and abusive man
I can only speak for myself, but my childhood was overshadowed by unnecessary fears about Armageddon, due, according to the JWs back then, before the end of the 20th century, executing me, my non JW and friends as well as me if I did not perform as a good enough JW.
I do not want future generations of children to suffer such cruel nonsense and, apart from anything else, this blog serves as a warning to anyone who may be curious about the JWs, those nice polite Christian door knockers, and be beguiled by their tales of an imminent Paradise Earth.
As an adult I have learned more about the JWs. Even after leaving, in my late teens (though my mother stayed in for life) I was filled with doubts and fear, lest there was some truth in JW TRUTH. I spent much time studying both the Bible and the history of the Watchtower, and later, with the internet, discovered the stories of a range of ex JWs.
The more I learn, the worse the JW organisation appears. I had known about the blood deaths and the string of duff prophecies, but the protection of paedophiles and the shunning were news to me.
Practising and believing JWs do sometimes contribute to this and other ex JW sites. WHat is remarkable, RJ, is that not a single one can demonstrate that there is any truth in JW truth, nor can they point to any benefits of belonging. You, RJ, are no different from the others.
Of course, you are entitled to write negative things about me and John Cedars as well as about the blog itself. It would be interesting, however, if you could apprise us of some evidence which might suggest that JW TRUTH is true, or, indeed, that there have been any positive aspects of the Bible Students/ Jehovah’s Witnesses in their 135 year history.
You might also consider why, unlike, say, ex Methodists or ex Quakers, there are so many ex JWs, keen to warn the world about the dangers of getting ensnared by this cult, and campaigning to either get it to totally transform itself, or disappear.
If you feel we are ignorant about the benefits, or even the truth of JW TRUTH. Please enlghten us.
I AS A AFORMER LONG TIME ELDER AND assembly OVERSEER AT TIMES Coule see the religion is built on Fear. Fear of dying and/or being destroyed if not loyal to an origination.Fear of Armageddon, Fear of being DF’d. Fear pf losin g your friends and family, fear of not making it in to the new world. Fear, fear fear.
Have you noticed at assemblies/conventions et most of the talks are negative. Most are just depressing about how bad everything is and how bad you will be if you leave the WT? I was getting depressed listening to all the negatives day in and day out. Another note I was noticing that less and less Jesus Christ was being mentioned? It was all using the name Jehovah. In the Christian Scriptures the entire focus is on Jesus and his teachings and his sacrificial death. He being the Savior of mankind. However over time this was mentioned less and less almost to the point of ignoring him and his teachings.
Any religion that is based on Fear is not from God.Christianity is a simple faith but the WT has made it very complicated.
I realise I do not know you, RJ, but I did write, amongst other things, that you are worth more than to be an unpaid mag. pusher for an organisation that cares nothing about you beyond your ability to augment its capital value. That is not hate. Why interpret it as such?
Mine, Cedars’ and others’ posts have been directed not at the members trapped within JWdom, but at the organisation itself.
Thousands have suffered at the hands of the JW organisation. As you appear to be a supporter, RJ, of said org. it is disappointing that, while raging at others’ comments that are directed not at you, but at the organisation you seem to want to defend, you have nothing to say in its favour.
I have just read over the replies to you, RJ, and can see no hate speech, neither from me, Cedars or anyone elase. There is information, certainly, questions and opinions. For someone who dislikes negative diatribes I would have thought the Kingdom Hall is not a suitable place, nor does JW lit. make for suitable reading.
Unless the JWs have changed beyond recognition, both KH lectures and JW lit. is filled with derogatory remarks about all other branches of Christendom as well as other religions and, indeed, all aspects of the world beyond the control of the JW bosses.
ANd the hate is not purely verbal. There is this warning that the entire world not under the control of the Watchtower bosses is so foul that it it will soon meet, at the hands of Jehovah, a terminal blow to its existence in the form of Armageddon.
Although I learned long ago that the JW bosses are utterly phoney and their cliams mean nothing, for those who have been beguiled by their methods, the action which will accompany the hateful words seems real and terrifying. It did to me as a child at the Kingdom Hall.
I suggest you read both JW lit, as well as the comments here, in reply to yours RJ and then decide where lies the hate.
Please, RJ, you have accused me, Cedars and other people who have posted on here of directing hatred at you.
I do not see any. There are plenty of stories about the hateful way some commenters have been treated by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. That includes Cedars himself. For my own part I only suffered, due to my association with the JWs, nightmares and a constant feeling of guilt. That, however, is no reason to heap praise on an organisation. It is, however, a reason to warn others not to get involved.
As I mentioned before, the most glaring examples, in my own experience where JWdom and hatred come together are my memories of talks, Watchtower studies, home book studies and the Theocratic Ministry School; indeed everything associated with the JW experience.
We were warned off everything in the world that was not under the control of the Watchtower bosses. These were all Satanic; so wicked and expendable that they were due to be obliterated, before the end of the 20th century, by Jehovah in his mega orgy of destruction known as Armageddon.
Referring to the world and its billions of fellow humans which were not of that micro minority of baptised and active JWs as fodder for execution is, surely, hate. And this was not a few remarks, as might be found on a blog. This was constant. Three meetings a week at the Kingdom Hall, a home book study as well as in all the required preparatory reading and doorstep preaching.
Why, RJ, do you think it out of order to recount facts about a destructive organisation whose only ‘achievements’ in its 135 year history are a string of duff prophecies, thousands of deaths thriough flip flopping edicts on blood transfusion, split families through shunning, protection of paedophiles through the 2 witness rule and stunted lives through the frowning on education once the ability to read JW lit. and parrot its contents on the doorstep has been acquired?
We know you do not like this blog and you are no fan of Cedars or me. Thank you for making that clear. An answer to the following question, however, would be interesting:
Why do you consider information hate speech?
As I mentioned before, RJ, I see no hate directed against you. There is information in the replies which points out the hate filled speech from Kingdom Hall platforms (all non JWs deserve to be executed) and the hateful behaviour experienced by some commenters at the hands of the JW outfit.
There are also invitations to you, RJ, to enlighten us as to the good things coming from the Watchtower as well as some evidence that JW TRUTH is true.
You have responded to neither invitation. You have simply made unsubstantiated allegations of hate.
My invitation to you, RJ, to tell us some postive achievements of the Watchtower, achievements which most contributors here, including me, appear not to have noticed, still stands.
I cannot speak for Cedars, but I presume his challenge is still open to you. I can offer no prizes for telling us positive info. about the Watchtower, but Cedars’ prize must surely tempt you. If you can demonstrate that JW TRUTH is true, this website which seems to have caused you so much anguish, will disappear.
RJ, My challenge is still open to you to read “Captives of a Concept” and “Gentile Times Reconsidered”.
If you are not a Witness now, you should ask for a Bible study and make sure that every single statement that you see in the publication that the Society makes in that publication is backed up by the Bible. You will be amazed at all the blanket statements that the Watchtower makes without any Biblical backing. That is the mistake that all of us made when we studied, whether adult or as children. If you have a Bible study like that, it’s the Society that would be put on the offensive and the teacher will be amazed at how much they were also deceived into thinking that it was the “Truth” when all it was, was just made up “truths”, not substantiated in the Bible at all. You will have your eyes opened up by a “study” like that, believe me.
The bravest thing that I ever did (and all those in the same situation) was to walk away from the meetings and field service, knowing I was going to lose every so-called “friend” I had ever had at the Kingdom hall, both here and in many other congregations. It wasn’t lazy, like the Society would like you to think it was. It was not supporting lies anymore. Our consciences won’t allow for that and neither should yours.
Prove what the Society says is the “Truth”. That’s all we want for you. We don’t want to see you spend your life supporting lies. Nobody is attacking you. We are trying to help you. Read those comments again.
RJ,
How is my comment in any way “hate speech”? I have only written my opinion and asked specific questions of you in a polite manner.
Trying to enlighten the general public to the serious problems in the WTBTS is not hate speech, not is it inspired by hatred.
Trying to enlighten current. JWs about the specific points I raised in my comment is not hate speech either. Where is the hate in my comment, RJ?
I think it far more hateful to do the things I raised, don’t you? To cover up child abuse – hateful. To advise women to stay with an abuseive partner and deny the chance to remarry in the Lord if this is used as a reason to divorce – hateful. To shun family members for simply not believing in the teachings of the WTBTS – hateful.
Please explain how any of my comments are “hate speech”?
Why do you think we are hateful? Why do you think that trying to help people is hateful?
I look forward with great interest your reply and your apology to me for implying in your comment that I am a hateful person.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
I wanted to look at the replies as soon as I could because I was accused of staying away out of a fear. Read the latest bunch and they are all still pushing their dislike, disgust, hatred or whatever you want to call it towards JWs. As I have stated, you have all assumed that I am in your words an “indoctrinated” fool of some sort and that I should wake up. Everyone of you keep saying that I am pushing the truthfulness or correctness of JWs. This could be any further away from the actual facts.
I saw this sight and thought that it was one devoted to surveying people on a certain subject. Surveys are designed to be NEUTRAL and simply collect and report on various subjects.
All you people want to do is debate theology with a person who you perceive as being something that I am not. Not one of you have addressed the comments I have made concerning this web site and its blog. All you have done is wanted to spout out about your personal position as it relates to JWs. That is not the topic of which I blogged about and I have no desire in discussing a subject that I am not well versed in.
However, my background does surround statistics and statistical data. This web site’s “survey” is extremely unprofessional, non-scientific and prejudiced, in my opinion. Any one can take a little bit of info and make it whatever they want it to be. Politicians make a living doing this. I have never said even one word defending the beliefs of JWs, either individually or as an organization.
So that people like me are not confused in the future, maybe the domain name should be changed so as to not be so misleading. Mr. Nelken seems to have a lot to say about his position, unfortunately it has been directed to a person who blogged with an entire different SUBJECT and concern.
I have seen many websites that promote a particular philosophy or idea. That’s fine, no problem. I merely suggest in a humble way that you present it in that way and try better to not mislead and/or prejudge the participants. Cedars goes off on some long explanation of what an apostate is and admits he does not even identify himself. What’s wrong with being direct, honest and fair? Especially when you claim to be what this web site claims to be. I suggest, Mr. Nelken that you ask Cedars for a spot on the site and perhaps could call it Nelkens Corner or something. You could have meaningful dialog with people that want to talk about the subjects you want to talk about. Dominating a blog presented on a different subject and filling it with you rhetoric about JWs, “truth” or how your childhood was so bad is the subject for another place, in my opinion.
I am convinced that at this point, no one desires to address the subject that I initiated and frankly I do not want to waste time working on something that I am not qualified to discuss nor have any desire to hear about. It’s that simple.
No Fear, no worries about me at all. I have not asked my JW friends about this site, but I can only guess that they have heard it all already, so I won’t bother them.
So good bye to all and I can only hope that you have peace.
I would like to reply to you comment by saying that I am not in any position to prove with statistical data that your claims about abuse are right or wrong. Also, I know as a I am an experienced statistician, you take your position based on limited information. It would be absolutely impossible to state your position as being actuarially dependable unless you have actually conducted an exhaustive detailed research on the matter and have gathered information in a scientifically based manner about the subject.
To make claims that you say are definitely factual and then push these poorly conducted surveys, decisions, or whatever you want to call them is in my opinion motivated at least in part by some sort of hatred.
If you got the idea from my comment that I am branding you as a hateful person, and I see where you could, then for that I do apologize. Sometimes people who do not intend to be hateful can say things that appear to be filled with hate, especially when it comes to very emotionally charged issues, such as abuse.
But I do not apologize for my position about this web site being one that is misleading. I am the first person to say that you have the right to your position and beliefs. You may even have had some terrible things happen to you or someone close to you. I get that. However, you say that JWs encourage abuse and have non-existent policies to protect women. You can’t say that with total accuracy. You did say that you cannot find any policy to protect children within the JWs. That does not mean a policy does not exist!!
Now, please do not challenge me to search for one and inform you when I get it. You see, I don’t care about this issue enough to spend my time researching it. Child abuse is a terrible thing, but I do not think that whether JWs have one or not will solve the problem. My expertise is not in this area and so I would bring little to the table in an effort to this worldwide tragedy.
Let me end by saying that I have empathy for anyone who is a victim of any type of abuse and if this has been something in your personal life, then I can only hope that you can get whatever peace you can at this time.
My last comment was directed specifically to Excelsior.
RJ, you keep bringing up your initial comment and nobody is addressing it? The title of this web site is giving a voice to the silent majority. It isn’t just about a survey. Did you miss that by any chance? I think maybe if you read a bunch of the subjects on the right hand of this web site, you might have more of an idea why we all comment. Unlike you, the people who do comment on this site, do know what they are talking about because we all are either Witnesses now or were. If you notice, some were or are elders.
From what you say, you want us to think that you just happened on this web site and thought it was just a “survey?”
The fact that you don’t want to ask your JW friends about this web site, says a lot too. Why not? Why don’t you want to ask them? I am very curious why not????? You seem to think they know all about it and so what is the point, which is totally against all the rules if they really do.
We pity anybody who is a JW and welcome anybody to come on here and defend the Watchtower. We want to hear some good things if you can think of it but the reason people don’t come back after trying to defend the Watchtower isn’t because they are proved right like what you said but have nothing to defend their side of the story. If they had something to defend the Watchtower, they would come back and show it to us but they don’t come back. We have all the current as well as all the old literature and extensive concordances and indexes so we can prove anything to you and them. That’s why they don’t come back.. They got nothing.
You claim you aren’t a Watchtower apologist but you sure sound like a Watchtower apologist to me. If you don’t care about it, then why are you posting here?
Well, RJ, that was a load of ‘sound and fury signifying nothing.’ So it seems you are not a JW, and therefore feel no need to defend their beliefs and practices.
You have complained at length about this site having a misleading title and introduction. Your introduction of yourself has certainly misled many of us.
OK, you have some JW friends that you like. You actually wrote that. I can assume, therefore, that that is a fact. If you are not a JW, however, and assuming your JW friends actually believe that JW TRUTH is true, they believe that you, together with all all the ‘apostates’on this site, indeed together with all the billions of the world’s inhabitants that are not believing and practising JWs, are deserving of an imminent Armageddon death penalty.
My life improved immeasurably once I realised that this particular JW TRUTH (never mind all the other ever changing unevidenced ‘TRUTHS’) was cruel controlling nonsense. My childhood fears and nightmares were unnecessary. I wish to warn the world about the horrors that lie behind those neatly dressed, earnest and polite JW door knockers with their bags of mags. This site is one of many where that is possible. That the statistical survey element may not measure up to some standards employed by statisticians is a minor element.
‘Giving a voice to the silent majority’, however, is an excellent mission. I do not know how much you know about JWs. You have complained that we are demanding you be the Watchtower’s defender as many of us assumed you were a JW. You complained about the misleading title of this blog. You seem to have misled many of us into assuming you were a JW. Well, whatever your position, it is a fact that, within the JWs, dialogue is impossible. All communication is top down. THE TRUTH is invented by the guys at the top, the seven ‘divinely appointed’ ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ Gov. Bod. chaps, and then disseminated globally via the network of Kingdom Halls. The entire JW world is literally ‘on the same page’ (of the Watchtower) in any one week.
Discussion, dissent, even questioning of these DIVINE TRUTHS, is prohibited. Parroting is the order of the day. Armageddon execution is the threat that prevents any deviation from the New York TRUTH line.
Whether or not, RJ, you approve of deaths through the blood transfusion ban, split families through shunning, unnecessary terror as a result of the string of JW duff prophecies, split families through shunning, protection of paedophiles through the two witness rule and stunted lives through the frowning on higher education, these are the fruits of the 135 year JW ministry.
I do not understand why you object so strongly to a blog where those either still in the JW mental prison and those of us who have escaped, can have an opportunity, denied us in the strictly censored Kingdom Hall environment, to express our feelings about, and exchange information about, the Jehovah’s Witness organisation.
You complained about this blog’s misleading title. Anonymous has enlightened you as to its central purpose. I am not the only one who is utterly mystified as to why you object so strongly to this blog’s existence and purpose. It drove you, as you acknowledge, to fling unsubstantiated allegations of hate directed at you.
I do not doubt that you have good hearted JW friends. I remember some decent folk at my childhood Kingdom Hall. It is tragic that they had been beguiled by the slick mind control marketing style of the Watchtower to fritter their lives away as unpaid mag pushers.
I am glad that you disapprove of child abuse. Protection of paedophiles, however, is institutionalised in the JW world. That is just one of the evils of the organisation.
An explanation as to why you object so strongly to a site where facts about JWs can be revealed would be interesting. I know of no good that has come of the organisation since its foundation. Beyond the fact that it has ensnared some of your friends, JR, you have told us nothing about JWdom.
I hope you no understand why you have been misunderstood, and why your anger at this site’s very existence is a continuing mystery. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
You write alot, RJ, but you explain very little. It appears that you object to a site where the exchange of information and views on a destructive cult is enabled.
And on what grounds are your objections based?
That lies are posted?
No. Your objections are based on your view that the title ‘JW Survey’ is misleading and that you are a very clever actuary/ statistician or something.
You know now that it is a forum which, unlike the stifling Kingdom Hall, where even questions, let alone contrary opinions, are taboo, allows exchange of information and opinions.
So, do you still object to this site’s existence and mission?
If you do object, please explain why.
Remember, that if you are not a Jehovah’s Witness, JWs are told to believe tht you deserve an imminent execution at Armageddon.
Thus site does not only discuss the position of vulnerable women and children in the JWs. It raises all the other issues, every one of them negative, about the JWs.
For all that you have written wordily about the inefficient evidence (as you see it, from the POV of a highly professional , skilled and clever statistician) for the protection of paedos in the JWs, you must have noticed all the other horrors connected with the JWs.
As Anonymous says, whether you wished it or not, you come across as a JW apologist.
This suggests that though you may be a highly qualified, wise and perceptive statistician (or whatever) you are a very lame communicator.
I hope you are satisfied that this blog will continue until such time as Cedars decides to close it, or until some evidence that there is any truth in JW TRUTH is produced.
Until then it provides a very useful forum for the exchange of information about the JWs, whether the evils, of which there is plenty of evidence, or even the benefits. As to the latter no contributor here, including RJ, has ever produced any evidence that there have ever been any benefits to be gained from associating with the JWs.
I hope that one day this forum, and dozens like it, will become redundant. That, however, requires the utter transformation of the JWs, or, better still, the organisation’s elimination.
Correction – This site……
As an expert statistician, RJ, you may care to assist, with your undoubted expertise, the Watchtower Society in their appeal against the conviction for protecting a child molester. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ELBt4mA7sI
RJ,
Thank you for your partial apology.
I have plenty of evidence to satisfy you on the topics I raised.
I am not a hateful person for wanting to protect children, women and all people from the negative policies and practices of the WTBTS.
I am motivated by love, not hate.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
RJ,
Further to my last comment.
I have re read your comments, and I have a statistical question, for which I would appreciate your expert opinion.
How large a study, and what questions should be asked, to provide statistically valid evidence of the points that I have raised?
Do I need statistical data if I can site Watchtower official policy that verifies my point? I appreciate that I would have to have data showing that the policy was actually enforced.
I have done a little research on statistics, but I am by no means an expert.
I want to effect positive change for the rank and file Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do not want to destroy anything or anyone. I want children, young people and women to be free from abuse, or as free from abuse as is reasonably possible. I want the policies about domestic and child abuse written and enforced by the WTBTS to be in line with best practice as determined by experts in the relevant fields, not a group of well meaning but uninformed religious leaders.
Please be assured, RJ, my motives are not hateful. On the contrary, my love for my neighbour impels me to do what little I can to help resolve these problems amicably and inclusively. This is in line with Jesus’ teachings and I am convinced that all Christians would agree.
I would sincerely like to benefit from your expertise in statistics to improve our effectiveness in resolving the profound issues that are raised on this site.
Please provide me with some advice on improving our statistics, and I am sure that it will prove to be very helpful.
Peace be with you,
Excelsior!
RJ, I was wondering the same thing as Excelsior was wondering. According to most “worldy” statistics, the divorce rate, separation rate, suicide rate and depression rates among Jehovah’s Witnesses are among the highest of any other religion in the U.S. so I am very curious if the Society has ever ran any real statistics on these issues, rather than just issuing blanket statements like the JW’s have the lowest suicide rates, depression rates and are the best religion of keeping families together etc? Does the Society have any real data on these issues or do you just take their word for these statistics that they are so good among JW’s? Also according to “worldly” authorities, JW’s have the 2nd lowest income of any other religion in the U.S. and a lot of times, the reason for divorce is the lack of money. Do you have any real data from the Society as to income levels among JW’s? You seem to know a lot about statistics so maybe you can help us out there.
A JW friend of mine who was a long time Elder used to tell me he believed in the 100% rule? Which was that if you took 100 local people in your neighborhood and 100 local average JW’s and compared their life styles with Crime, statistics, divorce, infidelity, broken families, divorces, suicides, and all the other problems that fac Society he said he believed the Witness percentage would only be Slightly better than the local 100 people. As an Elder you get to see all these issues in a closer range and he experienced it. I myself as a for Elder for 12-13 years experienced it also. There was tons of infidelity, homosexuality, Thievery, fraud, Adultery,Illegal drug issues,Rape, Abortion, Alcoholism,Suicide and even MURDER more than once. One Sister KILLED her Non JW Husband with a gun during a domestic abuse. She was Df’d and one year later re-instated and everyone at the KH was giving her hugs and saying welcome back bla, bla , bla? One Local Elder in the SF Bay Area In a neighboring Congregation was a serial Rapist and Home invasion Robber and had raped and Robbed at least 10 times before he got caught and sent to jail. All the time while he was doing this he was the Presiding Overseer in the Cong!
I am not making this stuff up. I sat in many of these type of meetings and heard it all. The point here is the JW’s are not much different than the Non JW’s. I will admit they are taught NOT to do these things but in reality they do them maybe not at the rate of Non JW”S but like my Elder friend said the 100% rule does apply here.
The reason they have the 2nd lowest income of USA religions is bc they are discouraged and even ostracized about getting and education that can make them a decent living. Doing Janitorial work and washing windows only pays so much and that is only of you own the company.
As we all know the JW retention rate is also very low. After a few years of being a JW people begin to see the real JW World and the dictatorship it has become.
http://tv.jw.org/#video/VODIntExp/docid-502013390_E_1_VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/user/johncedars1929
Compare attitude
Well these JW apologists certainly come in a range of varieties. There is, however, one binding feature. Not one can provide any evidence to suggest that there is any truth in JW TRUTH.
They all. however, in their different ways, cast aspersions on this blog. The last one, calling himself, RJ, was a very queer fish indeed. Initially he raged against this blog and appeared to all who read him, to be a JW apologist, indeed a JW himself.
As is now his custom, Cedars presented him with the video challenge, and promised that were evidence produced to demonstrate that JW TRUTH is true, he would take the blog down. As is transparently obvious to anyone not ensnared in the destructive JW mind control machine, there is no such evidence, and none was, of course, produced by RJ.
Unlike nearly all the other apparent or declared JWs, RJ did reappear; not however, with any evidence of the truth of JW TRUTH. He did not even offer, despite having received several requests, to tell us anything of the good things delivered by JWdom in its 135 year history.
He simply wrote a long screed accusing all contributors of spreading hatred, and boasting of his great credentials as a statistician; which credentials, he declared, qualified him to dismiss the ‘Survey’ word in the blog’s title as misleading. He had nothing, of course to say, which called into question the declared function of the blog, namely to give a voice to the silent majority.
He was persuaded, fortunately, to realise that he had not been in receipt of hatred. Any hatred in this blog is directed at the murderous and deceitful JW bosses.
Surprisingly, however, he denied being a JW apologist. This is most puzzling. JWs are ordered, on pain of Armageddon execution, not only to apolgise for their faith, but to spend all their time and resources promoting its wondrous TRUTH.
He had mentioned having some good JW friends. He has now been reminded that, if he is not a JW, his JW friends, indeed the whole global community of JWs, are looking forward to the day of Armageddon when RJ is executed. His very existence, as a non JW, is an impediment to the establishment of the JWs’ fantasy Paradise Earth.
Whether we have heard the last of RJ on this blog I have not a clue. He has, however, whatever he is, whether, JW, non JW, apologist, non apologist, believer or no, done the Watchtower exposure movement sterling service. Any casual reader will note that nobody, despite a whole battery of requests, is able to furnish any evidence of any benefits ever delivered by JWdom and certainly has never provided any evidence for the truth of its ever changing, obscene and ridiculous TRUTHS.
Well done, RJ! Keep up the good work!
I changed my mind and I decided to respond one more time to explain my comments and hopefully remove doubt as to my intentions. I wrote a long comment and it was evidently rejected because of length, I will break it up into parts.
I read a long comment of yours, RJ. That it was posted and read means it was not rejected.
Certainly your attitude to the JWs is not clear. No one seems to know whether you are or are not a JW or a JW apologist. That is nothing to do with length and everyhting to do with your ambiguity.
All you have made clear thus far, though subsequent comments may enlighten us on other matters, is that you do not like this blog and you rate yourself highly as a statistician.