About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…

It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.

The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!

This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.

The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.

A website for all

This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.

We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.

The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.

Who started this website?

I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.

I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.

It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.

An unmerciful practice

For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)

Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.

There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?

Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)

Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.

The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.

The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”

These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.

Only human

It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.

The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.

I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.

Warmest regards,

 

new-cedars-signature2

172 Responses to About JW Survey

  1. CARLOS FARINHA says:

    Boa noite.
    Nunca desista do seu trabalho.
    Os cristãos primitivos eram humildes e sinceros.
    Continue e revele as mentiras do ” corpo governante ” .
    Obrigado.

  2. Aonymous says:

    WBTS are Criminals….

  3. A Happy Witness of Jehovah says:

    Some of the comments offered here are sounding like apostasy to me. I would not ever want to voice such opinions as the ones even by the founders of this website. I truly believe this is “Jehovah’s” organization and the fact He uses imperfect men does not make it any less His. When one speaks out against His earthly organization they are speaking out against His ability to make sure things are done properly. We must have faith that errors will be corrected and adjustments will be made. That does not make Jehovah’s teachings erroneous but merely a fact when men are used. We know His Holy Spirit is always prayed for and is a guiding force for all. Did you ask for His spirit when you decided to voice your opinion for all to see? Did you ask His guidance for the website you have created? You have given voice to apostates which we are never supposed to listen to. How does that make you feel? It makes me sick to even think about it. I am sure the “first” apostate is very happy. Thank you for the space but I really hope you will pray for Jehovah’s guidance and really think about what you are publishing. Some of it is shameful.

  4. a former witness says:

    A faithful Jehovah’s witness couple survive the battle of armaggedon.They notice that there is no survivors in the immidiate vicinity and are so happy to be alive in the new system that they start making love to each other. Just at that moment a faithful Jehovah’s witness who died is resurected.He hears some noise and a rustling behind the bushes and goes to investigate. “Thats not fair!” he shouts, “they make it through armaggedon alive and now they’re breeding like rabbits, and yet I died and was resurected and not only am I not supposed to have sex, I’m not even allowed to masturbate!”

  5. songofecho says:

    I always thought that was unfair. Many JW’s are told to wait until the paradise to have children, and many who wait die before armaggedon and will never be able to marry and have children. The JW’s don’t believe resurrected ones will be allowed to have sex, but they teach that even if Abraham had sacrificed Isaac, Jehovah would have resurrected him to fullfill the prophecy of Isaac being the father of a great nation. How would that have been possible if he couldn’t have sex?

  6. An unhappy witness of Jehovah says:

    I have been raised in the truth [49 yrs old] and I was a faithful ‘Happy Witness of Jehovah also, for 35+ years until 2002 when I was chemically poisoned at the dry-cleaners I worked in and damaged the lining of my lungs. Because I now have severe chemical sensitivities and asthma [My throat & lungs close up during an attack]. I was now no longer able to walk into a Kingdom Hall, Assembly Hall, or go door-to-door without a severe attack. The elders of my congregation AND my own family members who were JW’s said I would be considered inactive and was told that if I couldn’t go to meetings or out in service that I would die at armeggeddon. I wrote the Governing Body at NY a letter and was told that there is nothing we can do, just do your best that you can. So now I get the phone tie-in from my local congregation. I can get my magazines thru the Society’s website. KM’s are a hit-and miss situation unless I stop at my bookstudy coordinator’s house and pick them up myself… But I get very limited contact with my brothers and sisters because of the stigma attached to a publisher who cannot go out in service or meetings. It’s been VERY diffcult emotionally because I know what the literature says about showing love for our brothers and sisters but I can see how my family & I have been treated for the past 10 yrs. So I know that most of the ‘Happy witnesses’ out there that would never say ANYTHING negative about the organization have NEVER had their faith tested to such extremes. So there may be some negative comments that sound like ‘apostasy’ but truth is truth!

  7. sharah says:

    In the time of ancient Israel the measure of keeping the nation clean of fornicators,adulterer of criminals,etc,etc. Under the Law, a wrongdoer deserving capital punishment usually was pelted to death with stones. (Le 20:2) This was to ‘clear out what was bad from their midst.’ All Israel would hear of the punishment, and fear of such wrongdoing would be instilled in their hearts. (De 13:5, 10, 11; 22:22-24) In stoning an evildoer, they showed that they were zealous for true worship, anxious to see that no reproach came upon God’s name, and desirous of maintaining a clean congregation.
    Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, AT LEAST TWO WITNESSES had to give harmonious testimony against him, and thereafter they cast the first stones. (Le 24:14; De 17:6, 7) The prospect of being the executioner made a person think searchingly in giving evidence and doubtless was a deterrent to false testimony, which, if discovered, would cost the lying witness his own life.—De 19:18-20.

  8. Mandalay says:

    Unhappy witness. Unfortunately, your situation is no big surprise to me.There was an wheel-chair bound sister who had moved into a house less than 1/2 mile from our Kingdom Hall. Her husband was not a JW but would bring her to the meetings in a van. Our elders basically told her to scram, that she lived in territory assigned to another Kingdom Hall about 5 miles away and she needed to go there. She was devastated emotionally and cried. Imagine having to tell her unbelieving husband about the unwelcome the congregation gave her. There is not enough space here to get into specific quotes, but this kind of insensitivity is coming directly from content in the WT publications, as the publications are often held in higher esteem than the God’s Word itself. Keep up what you’re doing and remember, our ministry takes many forms. If you can, write a few letters to friends and relatives expressing your faith and report your time. Persons in your situation can report fractions of time. And keep writing the WT.

  9. Sarah Puffer says:

    I relate to Candace Conti in a major way. I have a story of truth that would blow your mind. My real paternal grandmother was a Witness, when my grandfather died she and my Aunt and Uncles moved in with our family. They were all grown and able to care for themselves. My grandmother was very active in the Organization (which they like to call themselves) until her death. She sat and did nothing while her son raped and tortured my two oldest sisters. This went on for so long that my sister finally got pregnant by my uncle and left. This started when my sisters were 10 or 11 years old. My grandmother, father and all of my aunts and uncles knew what was going on in our house, but no one cared. My grandmother and father moved us to Vidor, Tx. when I was 5 years old. Little did I know that my father had communications on paper showing that we girls were for SALE. Yes, for sale pictures were taken, so that people could see what they were bidding on. The bites came, but they were for every child but me. I was settled on and adoption came, along with depression. No one ever sat down and told me that I had a new mother and father. The new mother had a daughter by a previous marriage who was 13 and hated me. She told me to never touch her, and so I caught on real fast. My parents had left the house one day and two men came to our house and picked me up screaming and kicking all the way out to the car. I was put in the car and told to shut up. The neighbor remembered it 30 years later. He said it haunted him like a ghost. So I spent months on a swing in the front yard, waiting for my real mother and father to come and get me. My new father didn’t take long at all to start straightening me up. I would have to do stupid things like walk in high heels along the fence line all day so that (as he said) I could learn to walk straight. I was given a bible and assigned scriptures at the age of six so that I could learn to read (with no help) If I couldn’t do it, I got a horrible switching when he got home. When I started first grade I could read and write. Self taught, along with a lot of whippings. By the time I was 8 I wanted any other woman to be my mother, except the one I had. Little did I know that the arguments between the husband and wife stemmed from resentment that she had built up over him molesting her daughter. I learned this years later. Over the course of 13 years, I was mentally, physically and sexually abused. When I was 19 I left. I have suffered from a lot of abuse in my life because when you are raised with it, it is very hard to teach yourself how to change it. The mental damage was never corrected. I have been under the care of a psychiatrist for many years and I take medication. My nerves are so bad that even though I was a secretary for years, it is very hard for me to type and I have to correct a lot. I am 58 years old and I can hardly function. I cry all the time. Someone told me that I should try to see the happy side of life and my reply was:”I don’t know how to be happy, I was never taught happy. My Dr. informed me last week that, I was going to die because I take the largest dose of medication that my body can stand. I was molested by my new father from the ages of 10 to 12. I told his wife, she called the other elders in the Congregation (YES, he was an elder) and he was forgiven because he was repentant. He admitted doing it and he was forgiven. When I left home, they moved, after they told everyone that they had kicked me out because I was in love with him and I wanted him to divorce her and marry him. This was done to destroy my credibility, so that if I ever told anyone what went on in our house, I would not be believed. I was allowed one friend who was 10 years older than me and she was told that I lied a lot. After each visit with her my mother would ask her what we talked about and if I said anything out of line? I lost everyone I had ever known growing up when I chose to leave Jehovah’s Witnesses. When they moved they told everyone in their new congregation that they had no children. 35 years later when I come walking in to bury the man, people actually told me that they did not know that these people had any children. One woman said, they raised us children, and I want you to know that you were a very lucky child to have them as your parents. I was dumb-founded. Lost for words, I remained quiet. Another woman hugged me and thanked me for taking care of the funeral arrangements financially, because they could not afford to take care of it. Again I had no reply. Who thanks a child in their 50′s for taking care of their parents burial? Everything in the will was left to The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Brooklyn NY. I will look at the settlement for Candace as a success in the settlement of my parents estate. My daughter found my real family in 2010. It has proven to be very unsettling for me. I can honestly say that I LOVE unconditionally, my children and grandchildren, and God. If anyone ever lays a hand on them they will be answering to God personally. Like the saying goes: “Hell hath no wrath like a woman who has been scorned.” Or as I say: ” Life stinks and then we die.” Where is the justice?

  10. Phil says:

    God Bless you Sir. I will pray for you. I hope your family form the Kingdom Hall realise they have a duty of care towards you. Draw close to Our Saviour he is right there near to you. Ask and you will receive.
    love your Brother in Christ

    Phillip

  11. Graham Central says:

    I stand with you in spirit, Cedars. One may leave a legitimate religion and not fear losing one’s family connections. When one leaves a cult, that cult does everything in its power to ruin the one leaving, even seperating one from one’s family. Having been raised as a JW, this much I have learned: Being raised in a cult is like being raised in a snake pit. In my opinion, the Watchtower Society has become a spiritual police state. I have learned that people only pay attention to what they discover for themselves. Nothing that I might do or say will change the outcome of things.

  12. KtotheRAD (Konrad) says:

    The Society itself says, “The Truth can never be Apostasy” but since when do they care much what they themselves write? And there are No Excuses or Allowances for Disabilities in that organization as you found out the hard way! If they can’t see it? It ain’t there!

  13. MATIN SARFAS says:

    Let hope the wt is on it way out over Candace
    Con> hope her lots money she is wins over wt let as now .martin I came out wt 2002

  14. Roger says:

    It really is a shame. I have been serving for some 35+ years, (I no longer associate)which included being an Elder and Congregation Secretary,and many other positions, as you would get these because of who you are, and have met some really decent and committed Christians in the organisation. And yet I found very little love among them. They seemed to be almost scared of the People around them in particular the Elders. And the various Cliques and innuendos, as well as the gossips that keep apart and destroy the very thing that should unite. “You will know them because there is Love among them”…

    Well I found very little, to the point that due to my wife who was not a witness, I had not one call ever to my House in that time, other then to question certain actions that I took based on scripture, such as regularly “calling on the flock”.
    What really upset me was the way that the governing Body demanded all sorts of behavior, while the Bible clearly said that Jehovah looks favorably on those contributions given freely of ones own accord. These would be acceptable in Gods sight.
    And yet it was amazing the amount of “you have to do…

    The other point I would like to share is the one of dates.
    Now that I think about it, this format is possibly incorrect/insufficient, as I would need much more space, as there are so many inconsistencies which would show just how far they are removed from reality.

    with christian Love
    Roger

  15. Anonymous says:

    An unhappy witness of Jehovah
    I have been raised in the truth [49 yrs old] and I was a faithful ‘Happy Witness of Jehovah also, for 35+ years until 2002 when I was chemically poisoned at the dry-cleaners I worked in and damaged the lining of my lungs. Because I now have severe chemical sensitivities and asthma [My throat & lungs close up during an attack]. I was now no longer able to walk into a Kingdom Hall, Assembly Hall, or go door-to-door without a severe attack. The elders of my congregation AND my own family members who were JW’s said I would be considered inactive and was told that if I couldn’t go to meetings or out in service that I would die at armeggeddon. I wrote the Governing Body at NY a letter and was told that there is nothing we can do, just do your best that you can. So now I get the phone tie-in from my local congregation. I can get my magazines thru the Society’s website. KM’s are a hit-and miss situation unless I stop at my bookstudy coordinator’s house and pick them up myself… But I get very limited contact with my brothers and sisters because of the stigma attached to a publisher who cannot go out in service or meetings. It’s been VERY diffcult emotionally because I know what the literature says about showing love for our brothers and sisters but I can see how my family & I have been treated for the past 10 yrs. So I know that most of the ‘Happy witnesses’ out there that would never say ANYTHING negative about the organization have NEVER had their faith tested to such extremes. So there may be some negative comments that sound like ‘apostasy’ but truth is truth!

  16. John Wolf says:

    Isn’t it wonderful the way truth will infiltrate even the most close minded and blind followers who really want to know truth.The Holy Spirit is in the world searching for those who will come to the True Light of the world,Jesus Christ.Without Him,all walk in darkness.He is worthy of our praise as witnesses of the true God.I do my best to follow the teachings of the Bible,especially where it instructs me on who to worship.For example: NWT of the Christian Greek Scriptures,1950 edition @ Hebrews 1:6,”But when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth,he says:”And let all God’s angels worship him”.I thank God that he has allowed such a wonderfully accurate and perfect translation to be manufactured,aren’t you? I mean,after all,if it’s O.K. for the angels to worship Jesus,then we should be able too also,right?
    I was also struggling with the idea of the Holy Spirit being an impersonal “Active Force” rather than Him having the attributes of a person when I stumbled onto II Cor.3:17 in the NWT,where it plainly says,”Now Jehovah is the (Holy) Spirit”.I no longer struggle understanding that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person,He is God Almighty,because according to this verse,He is Jehovah! Praise His wonderful name! I certainly do not understand though how this verse could be referring to any other Spirit as Jehovah,Because Jehovah is Holy isn’t He? And if Jehovah is Spirit as Jesus said He was in John 4:24,what other Spirit could Jesus be referring to than the Holy Spirit? If Jehovah is Holy,and He is Spirit,then logically thinking,He must be the Holy Spirit,right? Of course,that the same conclusion I came to! I’m so glad there are others who see that the Watchtower has been in error about so many different things.It’s truly refreshing that there are others who have decided to think on their own when it comes to some of the Junk that the GB dishes out.Keep up the good fight of faith and continue to expose error for what it is!……….thank you,John.

  17. Um irmão anônimo, uma Testemunha de Jeová/TDS, indicou-me seu site hoje. vim ver e lê-lo. Adicionei-o aos meus favoritos e, de tempos em tempos, virei aqui ver o andamento do trabalho cristão do irmão.

    Força e que o “espírito dos Deuses santos” continue a iluminar o irmão. – Daniel 4:8, 18.

    amor cristão desde São Paulo/Brasil.

    Apóstolo Testemunha dos Deuses Santos

  18. Stormy says:

    I feel so bad for you. But I’m surprised it has taken this long for you to see how JW’s REALLY are. It’s all so fake and phony. Once you’re in, then you’re not the shiny new toy anymore and if you don’t find a click, well, you’re alone, even if you’re surrounded by 300 JW’s. Time to get out dude! Really, run for your life…or walk really slow, but just get out! Wish you the best from Cali USA

  19. Cedars, I don’t believe Happy Jehovah’s Witness can show anything false in what you state on this website. You have presented the ultimate “conversation stopper”. Happy Jehovah’s Witness undoubtedly has not and probably will never be taught by the GB how to deal with facts when presented in the field service.

  20. Random says:

    Hey. I would like to let you know that people like you dont make it any better for people like jw’s. They already have enougfh trouble as it is going out and getting yelled at, constantly offended by opposers and even picked on by people who were “friends”up until the moment they corner them with abusive talk about their own religion to their faces… Religion isnt about people who praise hallelujah to a god they dont even know let alone even read or know the bible… It is about being kind, reading and knowing the bible so well, you practically know most common verses, being friendly to all (including those who oppose you), and believeing and having faith in your religion. And from my view point thats exactly what Jw’s do, compared to most other people who claim to be apart of a religion, when all their money is just going into the so called “priests” etc and their lives and dedication to churches is toward some really fake religions… Not saying there is a right or wrong religion here of course. Just saying- religion is a delicate matter. And if Jw’s are a religion (which they are not a cult. They truly are a religion), they should not be abused by so many and constantly be singled out as a “cult” or a “sect”. They are indeed more a religion than any other ive seen… I guess thats up to you to make sure you guys make the right decision. And im guessing this website was set up because some jw offended you or was too over the top or broke your heart or even you may have been a jw once… But truly… If you think making a website picking on other people and their beliefs makes you any better a person… I would reconsider… And i hope you actually read this and think long and hard… This isnt a threat… Its a conversation from one ordinary person to another…
    Thankyou sincerely,
    Random. (i would be obliged to tell you my name but i dont want any stalkers or anything following me cause frankly, thats an invasion of privacy). :)

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      ‘Picking on other religions’ eh Random? WHat do JWs do except declare that all other self declared CHristians are ensnared by the Devil and deserve an imminent divine murder at Armageddon? Most people I know who come across JWs only as door knockers, actually admire their earnest devotion. It is we ex JWs, who have experienced the horrors of your cult from the inside, that know the truth about JW TRUTH. Your posts, Random, are, of course, valuable in the global campaign to destroy the WBTS. Any curious reader will see the dreadful state of mind of one whose mind and life are totally dominated by JW indoctrination. Keep up the good work Random. In our separate ways we will help to rid the world of this JW scourge!

  21. James yehat says:

    I came across this site a few weeks back and though about just ignoring it as the founder and sponsor seem to at least express things which are similar to other anti- Jehovah`s witness sites – but decided on my own initiative to express a few concerns.
    1 – I do question whether the owner of this site is in fact one of us?? due to the nature and manner of the disagreement expressed on this site.
    2 – The organisation is unique in that it is the only one that does ever thing that is only based on the bible – so it is not influenced my man or preference`s or personal choices based on back ground or culture for example; it only goes be the bible and the principles in the bible.
    3 – the governing body in making its final decision on matters do delegate and intrust a lot of responsibilities to branch committee`s – all the way down to the appointed elders in the congregation – that means that when a decision is made, lets say in the case for a miner to be diss fellowship; there are a few things straight away – depending on the age of the child its parents are informed and a discussion takes please with the judicial committee as to how best help that child to make its way back – please note these suggestions are done in consultation with the parents – in addition there are not strict guidance – a resent update on the process that elders much follow before reaching that stage if they decide to do so – in addition the child or teenage has the opportunity to appeal against the there decision that the elders locally make. The appeal committee makes an independent decision based on the truth in the case – & if they cannot make a decision then the branch in that country look into the case and a decision is then made – if at that stage the decision is to go for the serious discipline to diss-fellowship then a review on that decision much be done on a yearly based by the original judicial committee, if not sooner- the spirit and attitude is to all way help the erring one to come to there senses and yes this is the over riding point to show and give clear evidence that he / she is repentant & secondly to maintain cleanness in the congregation –
    4 – if that child / teenager is at home what this all happens then the parents are with out question still responsible for the physical care of this child – it is so by the law of any land and it is also fully expected by the organisation – if for some reason the teenager decided to go leave by mutual consent be all concerned then that is not done by the influence or decision by the organisation & its governing body –

    so what can I say in conclusion on this matter? its this – we must all be loyal to Jehovah & his organization at all times as Jehovah`s dedicated witnesses – remember Jehovah is over all in charge and he as delegated authority to his son Jesus Christ who in turn has the Elders in his right hand of authority who are refereed to has stars. must full trust and wait on him knowing that any errors and wrongs will be set straight by our loving and caring father Jehovah who does all things for the sake of his people – I suggest that this site just like many others will in time become a irrelevance, and gods people will only go from strength to strength.

    • Cedars says:

      Thanks James for your honest if rather programmed reaction to our site.

      Your prediction is: “I suggest that this site just like many others will in time become a irrelevance”

      I have about as much confidence in that prophecy as I have in this one…

      “[Jehovah's Witnesses] believe that… some who saw the events of 1914 will also see the complete destruction of the present wicked world” – Reasoning book, page 200.

      Cedars

    • Ray says:

      The Aborigines (and I love them for it) have been around over 80000 years: before a bunch of goat herders in a Middle Eastern GPS unavailable to them decided the world of humans must sit up and take note. It was not surprising therefore that it took until about 3 centuries ago for them to even hear about this. Maybe this had something to do with Jewish circumcision? Shrug! You see the Aborigines split the penis from behind the tip right down to the groin area and let it heal into some broccoli looking expression of genitalia that enabled them to use reeds to control conception. Even if the Jews had ventured there, such comparable macho practices would hardly stack up against these raw hard natives – best leave these alone and stick to our less conspicuous “Snick for Yaweh.”

      You can, no doubt see the comparative appeal right there?

      So why then, I ask you all, are we so vehemently credulous to fall for a smalltime goat herders philosophy, from a time before refrigerators and anaesthetics, as if it applied to the whole world and every human therein from before and beyond space time as we know it? How can we grant plausibility to an idea that an all powerful mind, for reasons undescribed and left to our suspicions, decided to give these snippets of rulings and regulations to certain humans in certain places in the hope that somehow others , down the millennia, would be equal in falling for its preposterous claims to have rights over all of us?

      And why should we tolerate such a manifestly intolerant preposition upon all humanity???

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      Books, Videos, Facebook pages, blogs and websites exposing the house of lies and horrors that is the WBTS are proliferating; ditto the number of impending court cases connected with JW pedophile protection. The WBTS, meanwhile (which you, James Yehat, with pathetic credulity describe as ‘God’s Organisation’) has stalled in its expansion and is likely soon to diminish. The internet, with its interactive, as opposed to top down, communication, is the enemy of dictatorships everywhere, and the JW bosses are incapable of handling it. They have labelled ‘apostates’ as mentally diseased. Having failed to steer their followers away from the internet and possible infection with heresy (i.e real facts about the JW cult), they are now making efforts to engage with the internet via an improved website. This will be ineffectual; no feedback will be admitted which does other than glorify the outfit that produces it. I suggest, James Yehat, you prepare yourself for the implosion of your poisonous cult, and for re – engagement with the world that you have pretended you are no part of. The ugly little corner of the world that has always pretended it is no part of the world, i.e the JW org. will, we hope, soon be merely a grubby little footnote in the history of Christendom.

  22. Rowland Nelken says:

    James Yehat, and other believing JWs or sympathisers; have you ever stopped to consider why there are so many anti JW websites and Facebook pages? This does not happen with other sects, denominations or even with every cult. I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, and it was, by far, the worst aspect of my childhood. I actually believed JW TRUTH, as spouted by the Elders at my UK Kingdom Hall in the 1950s. Jehovah, back then according to the JWs, was set to murder the greater part of the human race before the end of the 20th century; and why? because the greater part of the human race did not attend the Kingdom Hall and spend their spare time and money on buying and distributing WBTS lit. door to door.

    Can any of you believing JWs tell me what the WBTS has achieved beyond the following:

    1. Inducing nightmares about a mythical Armageddon.

    2. Making an unevidenced claim that its bosses, the Gov. Bod., are the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24.

    3.Causing the deaths of thousands through their ever changing blood transfusion edicts.

    4. Causing the splitting of families through their shunning directives.

    5. Protecting paedophiles through their 2 witness rule.

    6. Making a series of duff prophecies about the advent of Armageddon. (1925, 1941, 1975 and before the death of the 1914 generation are but a selection)

    7. Furnishing Judge Rutherford with a luxury mansion (Beth Sarim) and a brace of Cadillacs.

    8. Covering up the Masonic origins of the cult when Russell founded his Bible students.

    9. Depriving millions of a decent education by declaring any skills beyond the ability to read JW lit., and spout JW doctrine door to door, to be ‘worldly’.

    10. Amassing a vast property portfolio in Brooklyn and around the world.

    I would be interested to hear of any other achievements, but having read the history of the cult by many authors (including the WBTS ‘Proclaimers’ book) I have never come across any others.

  23. ceecee says:

    if you were in a congregation where I live this would not happen. You could learn sign language and participate more fully.
    Devon

  24. Peter says:

    to:Rowland Nelken,

    I have been a witness all my life
    I want to serve God
    the correct way.

    The only thing that JW’S have gotten wrong are DATES-☺

    They are organized to preach the Good News
    i have learned that
    God is not a trinity
    God does not torment people for ever
    God has a name just like everyone else JEHOVAH
    The soul is not immortal
    JW’S don’t fight wars

    The dates set are not PROPHECY FROM THE GOV BOD.
    JW’S believe that after the bible was written there is no need for prophecy

    Those are the Pentecostals that hear words of knowledge and alike, but since they don’t publish a mag 42 million per mag, no one knows just the people in the church.

    So when someone speaks of JW AND PROPHETIC DATES, not true.

  25. Rowland Nelken says:

    So, Peter,, if Armageddon dates are the only thing that JWs have got wrong, then the JWs must be right about the following:

    1. Armageddon can be calculated by taking measurements from the Great Pyramid.

    2. The Crucifix is an appropriate Christian symbol.

    3. The Crucifix is not a Christian symbol.

    4. Jehovah has no opinion on blood transfusions.

    5. Jehovah forbids blood transfusions.

    6. Jehovah is OK with blood transfusions so long as the blood is delivered in fractions.

    7. Jehovah approves of celebrating Christmas on 25 December.

    8.Jehovah forbids celebrating Christmas on 25 December.

    9. True Christians will be raptured at Armageddon.

    10 True Christians will not be raptured at Armageddon.

    11. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1914.

    12. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1935.

    13. There is no restriction, datewise, on membership of the annointed.

    No doubt JWs can claim to have been right about many more things than the 13 foregoing. I wonder why not everybody accepts that JWs have THE TRUTH?

  26. Ray says:

    There is nothing malicious or weak about your life situation respecting any cosmic mind. No force or power has duty upon you to exert more than you happily are able to desire to do.
    I used to be a Jehovah’s Witness! The concept of apostasy is: an abuse upon the human mind: a degenerate subversion of thinking per se , and an exploitation of the individual to free think their own life course ( as many, throughout the history of humanity, have happily done for a lifetime; unhindered by any mention of scripture or deferral to some other persons claim to know of a cosmic mind looking on.)

    Credulity is the enemy of happiness and the slayer of reason. It is a poison to the soul.

    It’s why I’m aniti theist, not just atheist. And I state this, not against humans per se, but against ALL the philosophies that are permitted access to, and usually to poison beyond reform, the amygdala of unsuspecting humans in every generation.

    Yes, I utterly detest that which dresses faith as a virtue when in truth it is the most carnal of all desires to have inflicted upon any virgin mind!

    Best wishes to you, long sufferer of life on Earth!

  27. Emma says:

    Are you CURRENTLY a Witness Cedars? Answer these questions for me: What is so BAD about the organization and what it teaches? what would you do differently? It really saddens me that God practically BEGS humans to obey his commandments and live by his standards and finally, this organization does just that and of COURSE, some one (in this case Cesars) finds fault in it and tries to nit pick and find imaginary grievances…. smh @ Cesar. Makes me wonder what has happened to make you feel this way? Were you counselled for misconduct? Did you not get a position that you felt entitled to? What happened? So OK. Lets say you succeed (which is HIGHLY unlikely) in bringing the Watchtower DOWN…. Then what? You will start a religious named the Cedarslites? What’s next? Just remember brother “Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

    • Cedars says:

      “Are you CURRENTLY a Witness Cedars?” Yes, I am neither disfellowshipped nor disassociated – I am merely inactive.

      “What is so BAD about the organization and what it teaches?” In short, it is a cult. A cult is any organization, religious or otherwise, where the teachings or instructions are potentially damaging to those who join. In the case of JWs, you have shunning of disfellowshipped family members (unscripturally), protection of pedophiles (failure to observe their crime if there is no witness), and encouragement to decline medical treatment with blood (even though the bible has nothing to say about blood transfusions). You also have 8 men leading the organization claiming to be guided by God with no objective evidence to support this claim. If all of that doesn’t raise any “warning flags” with you, go right ahead and get baptized.

      “what would you do differently?” I would disband the organization.

      “Makes me wonder what has happened to make you feel this way? Were you counselled for misconduct?” I woke up, as simple as that. I decided that the reasons why this COULDN’T be God’s organization were simply too many to ignore, and I decided there was therefore nothing stopping me from disobeying the Society’s instructions by doing objective research. I read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz, and it blew me away – the fact that this is just a human organization after all. I would recommend you read that book too. Here is the link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/20333975/Crisis-of-Conscience-2004-Unencrypted

      “Did you not get a position that you felt entitled to? What happened?” Title or position had nothing to do with it. I was once an elder but stood down. Prior to my “awakening” it was made very clear to me that I could be an elder again if I put forth the slightest effort. I decided that I didn’t WANT to be an elder if I could see so many things wrong with the organization from the top down.

      “You will start a religious named the Cedarslites? What’s next?” I have no interest in acquiring followers or starting any religion. I am only interested in helping people out of a damaging cult. If you really want to know my religious viewpoint, please read my article: http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/is-jwsurvey-org-an-apostate-website

      I hope that answers your questions.

      Cedars

    • alun williams says:

      well said

  28. Peter says:

    Rowland Nelken
    So, Peter,, if Armageddon dates are the only thing that JWs have got wrong, then the JWs must be right about the following:
    1. Armageddon can be calculated by taking measurements from the Great Pyramid.
    2. The Crucifix is an appropriate Christian symbol.
    3. The Crucifix is not a Christian symbol.
    4. Jehovah has no opinion on blood transfusions.
    5. Jehovah forbids blood transfusions.
    6. Jehovah is OK with blood transfusions so long as the blood is delivered in fractions.
    7. Jehovah approves of celebrating Christmas on 25 December.
    8.Jehovah forbids celebrating Christmas on 25 December.
    9. True Christians will be raptured at Armageddon.
    10 True Christians will not be raptured at Armageddon.
    11. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1914.
    12. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1935.
    13. There is no restriction, datewise, on membership of the annointed.
    No doubt JWs can claim to have been right about many more things than the 13 foregoing. I wonder why not everybody accepts that JWs have THE TRUTH?

    Rowland,

    The pyramid? that was how long ago?
    dis JW teach about a pyramid?

    do the research

    Science also thought many things that have changed
    Do you say the same about science, the number of planets changed, are we going to dismiss science because it changes according to what it learns?

    The mayoralty of what you have mentioned are dates,
    just like i said.

    ¿What have JW gotten wright?
    ¿any takers on that SUBJECT?

    I wont list them here because i will be told i am issuing WT PROPAGANDA.

    • Rowland Nelken says:

      No Peter. You won’t list what JWs have got right because there is nothing to list. Unlike your attitude to me, I do not think you deserve an Armageddon death penalty for differing in your views and behaviour from me. You, however, have been drilled by your Brooklyn bosses to believe that I face an imminent and deserved divine murder for my failure to be unpaid mag. distributor for a global publishing and property corporation. I hope that one day you will escape the clutches of the cruel cult that dominates your existence. It may well be that the WBTS will face an avalanche of court cases in the coming years for its criminal protection of pedophiles in its ranks. It hides, as you may know, behind the Deuteronomy based 2 witness rule, in defiance of the law in every land where it operates. COurt cases will mean fines, enormous fines that your mag. purchases and unpaid labour, Peter, will not be able to meet. When property is sold, including, maybe, your own Kingdom Hall, what will you do? If you can’t generate cash for the WBTS, the WBTS will discard you. The ENd is nigh, Peter, for your misery making cult. I suggest you prepare yourself.

  29. Ray Owen says:

    Apostasy is a misnomer! How can one know this? From the basic assertion that ones belief is unquestionable – else apostasy – amidst thousands of beliefs humans have posited such a claim about down the ages.

    Hence the very concept of apostasy is clandestine tribalism snook in to appear more sophisticated as if some cosmic authority sanctioned this as claimed by who else but, you guessed it, long dead humans.

    The fact that many virgin births and 12 disciples leaders, resurrection after 3 days… plus a raft of other similarities, predated Yeshua (Jesus) by thousands of years hardly disguises the fact that ALL of these were still only limited to a small fraction of the geographical Earth as we now know it. What it strikingly illustrates is the massive credulity any human mind is all too easily polluted by when limited to age old myth and fiction as if universal truth. The amygdala makes too soon an emotive bonding therein which becomes increasingly painful to contemplate the cessation of!

    Hence “faith” : the misapplication of deep emotional bondings to fictional information supplied as universal knowledge.

    In light of the above, apostasy becomes the liberation and disclaimer of the fiction by which one was initially deceived and deluded (emotionally hijacked).

  30. I got baptise at 12…back in 1972. I stop going to the meetings because I did not see anything wroung with wearing a beard ,as long as it was neat and trim and clean. I was told by my brother the elder , that was not right to do. I needed to shave or suffer . because to properly represent Jehovah you must be clean shaved, or look like a worldly person. And not be look at as a productive wittness. Are you kidding me! I told him if Jehovah wanted me to shave ,why allow me to grow facial hair to begin with. Or any man . I dont think any man has that right to choose for you, even though some work places makes that policy for various reasons. Not sure why people thinks a clean face is honest and noble. I still have a problem with that. Along with beliving 1975 was dooms day. I elected to take my education for granted, since there was no need for it. After all thats what worldly people cared about not Jehovahs people. We got our education at the meetings, what really counts in life. I paid for that dearly to this day. I even recived several scolarships that my Mother turn down,cause we at that time was told not to go to college..to worldly and not needed,cause the new order was near. PLease!!! 1975 came and went,and so did I. There was also a relative of mine that was rape at the age of 12 by her stepfather .He was a ms . She got pregnant ,but was to young to carry the child. The elders never reported it, but her mother did devorce him. And he was disfellowship but reistated and remarried in the “truth” as its put. Never did a day in jail. Also shortly after that another brother in the same hall molested four girls ,ages13-15. when one of the girls told on him, He left town about 50 miles away with his wife, yes she stayed with him. he did the same thing in the new hall he went to with another lil girl. Not a day in jail, no prosecution even after repeating the samr crime. Today hes still giving public talks on Sundays. His wife still with him. He was never able to look me in the eyes after I found out. Nor did i forgive him. I wanted the family to prosecute him, and send him to jail. Of course they look at me as worldly, and that was not going to happen. the second time he got caught did not matter to them or the child he molested. WOW! And i call that my family. That family member is 40 now and still have nightmares, and no closure. Im 53 and now trying to find a true religion…There’s not any. So i depend of the bible and what it ask of me as a person to do to have favor with my creator and savior. I did go back to the hall I was raised in At 51. They treated me as if they hated that my life was good and my house was paid for…no probems living a worldly life, nice car, my own fitness club. Most of all they still was saying that same line….dont worry about having a good life here ..wait for the new order. I did confess my sins to the elders and was made an active member along with my kids joining the school for a year….but i made a mistake by reporting an elder that was selling predatory loans to the brothers, making up to 14000.00 dollars on prime lending per house as a brooker. All those who who went for the scam cause they had bad credit lost thier homes within 5 years. the elder was the presiding overseer. when they found out i was causeing a problem, they reopened my comfession case from a yeay ago ,stateing they did not form a judicial committe..they only meet with me with two elders , not three…i told them you said i was forgiven by Jehovah so you said,so whats the point of doing this again. they did it anyway and put me on restriction again. for the same sin i was forgiven for a year ago.whats the point? All seven elders knew the first decession and agreed all I had to do was to have a study with an elder in the what dose the bible teach and another book to catch up with the new light. I never return after that meeting to the hall. they came by house and said they saw a big inprovement in me after 30 days. Dispite not seeing me at the hall. and lifted the restriction. But they say they are being lead by holy spirt….yea ,and so Im I. I never went back. An elder call me and ask my problem…i said in a nut shell < that you dont need new light to report a serious crime as rape…you must and let police decide what to do. And you cant change a disipline so one that has not brought reproch on jehovah people. i never claim to be a jw my whole adult life , but have to pay to the congregation for what? He did not even have the details of all the rapes that has occured because the world want to presucute the wittnesses because of who they are..I said really..I guess PenN State is also a vitim, withholding info..A lot of people paid for that who knew …. the GB along with there followers knew too.. so welcome to the real world….Religion is a snare.. and you must be yourguide to Jesus not as a group. no one is judge or can be by a man…so they need to back off and just deliver the message. They think there elite because a man told them, he was a what..a prophet with money and a dream,and able to change the bible text and make false claims to dictate fear in people. Follow a fool, and you will bcome one. our bible is not accurate and need s a proper update by a real greek scholar. Not Barber&Russell.

  31. Amazed at the sheer ignorance says:

    What just amazes me is how people can pass judgement on others, make vast sweeping statements and make out that they know best. This isn’t just based on this page, but other pages I’ve read on this website. While you’re at it why not just say all black people are criminals, all asians are rapists and all white people molest their children. If someone has a faith, no matter what it is, allow them to do so. Just like people put their faith in clearly corrupt governments, some people look to a god or gods to help them through. I am not promoting cults or religions that encourage things are clearly legally, morally and ethically wrong. But do you not see the world that we live in? Are you completely blind to the atrocities that go around the world and even in your own town? Are you one of these people that because of Al-Qaeda now look at any Asian wearing a turban and label them as a terrorist, not even knowing what religion they belong to? No doubt many Witnesses have done wrong, perhaps they don’t even believe in Jehovah and want to make others think all Witnesses are like that. Is that not what Al-Qaeda have managed to achieve on a vast scale? There is still a huge amount of racism and prejudice in this world and it is sickening. It disgusts me, not because I am a Jehovah’s Witness, but because I am human. People seem to find nothing better than to highlight the negatives of everything. All the news is just propaganda; newspapers don’t sell when they write about happiness and success. Failure, murderers, extremists, death, devastation among other negative things sells. Things that scare people and about other people. This only leads to more prejudice and discrimination. People are so narrow minded that they believe whatever they read and whatever they hear.

    Why not think for yourselves? Why do you take everything on face value? Why not question what is being told to you? Why not be different rather than follow the crowd? From what I know JWs are told to question everything and not blindly believe what they are told. So if after they question it and they want to believe in a god called Jehovah, leave them to it. There are clearly many of you who don’t question, don’t look at both sides and just believe in any hype. You get on the hate bandwagon and ride it all the way along. Yes we have freedom of speech, but why use it to hate others? You think JWs have been brainwashed? You make me laugh. Have a good look in the mirror and consider yourselves. You are brainwashed by governments, by news, by media, by advertisements, by your family, by your peers. Everyone has an opinion and they all want you to believe it. But it is your choice what you want to believe. Get some compassion, get some humanity and stop believing in everything you hear/read. Some people do wrong, a lot of people do wrong, but I’m sure that you would not wanted to tarred with the same brush as other people, so don’t do it others. You should think about improving your own life, bettering yourself, rather than being petty and focusing on the flaws of others. Trust me, you have a heck of lot of flaws that people could write a bible about.

    • Cedars says:

      Hello “Amazed”

      Since we are speaking candidly, you should know that there are a number of people who are “amazed” at your outlook. In fact, there is an entire discussion thread about your comment on this link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/245433/1/Apostates-are-narrow-minded-victims-of-brainwashing-who-believe-everything-they-read Feel free to set up a forum account and get involved in answering people’s reactions to your statements on that website. I personally have no time to debate with you, not least because you don’t really seem interested in debate – only attack.

      I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for deleting your comment and banning you from this website with such rapidity. On reflection, as others have reminded me, it is always better for people visiting this website to see for themselves how blinkered and accusatory Watchtower apologists can be. You provide a stunning example in this regard.

      Thank you for contributing to this website, despite being told not to. I hope you wake up and smell the coffee at some point, but I won’t hold my breath.

      Cedars

  32. Rowland Nelken says:

    Several commentators on here have complained about the very idea of a website which criticizes, or even challenges, the beliefs and practices of Jehovah’s WItnesses. This is absurd. Jehovah’s Witnesses, by definition, believe that all of us outside their organisation, deserve an Armageddon death penalty for refusing to believe and act as they do. Jehovah’s WItnesses are the epitome of self righteous arrogance. Their bosses achievements, over the decades, have been uniformly destructive and negative, where they have not been criminal or even murderous. I refer to pedophile protection and the blood transfusion ban when I write of crimes. We who have known the organisation from within, have a moral duty to expose this foul cult, warn the curious who may be tempted to join it, and, ultimately, to bring about the cult’s destruction.

  33. Rowland Nelken says:

    No Peter- I did not mention dates. That a JW TRUTH is long ago does not alter the fact that, coming from a JW boss, it had to be accepted as God given TRUTH, or the doubter would face Armageddon destruction. What about the flip flops on blood, Christmas and the crucifix? The only reason that you, Peter, or anyone else can remain a Jehovah’s WItness is by burying your head in the sand and ignoring facts.

  34. Rowland Nelken says:

    JWs presume that all who are not of their number deserve the death penalty. A cult which does nothing but slag off the rest of humanity and looks forward to the day when its mythical obscene Jehovah creation murders the greater part of humanity, deserves nothing but exposure. It invites a campaign for its destruction. Unlike JWs, who look forward to my murder, I do not wish a violent death on individual JWs. I simply wish them release from the control of a bunch of self righteous old farts in Brooklyn (The WBTS Gov. Bod.)who have captured their minds and lives.

  35. Chris says:

    It always amazes me that current JW’s can never accept the fact that anyone would leave the organization with their integrity intact. Whereas the opposite is true in many cases and this self-righteous attitude comes across as the height of arrogance. I feel sad for them as I did all my wasted years truly believing what I was doing was correct.

  36. Ray Owen says:

    I left decades before the cognitive dissonance relented and I finally stopped having sympathy and subservience to various residual forms of their intellectual and emotional garbage. I will not forget the ones who got me in who were several generations into this organisation , or the humungous lies they pedaled to me which, became apparent down the line. It became incredibly obvious many are in it and don’t believe it all, yet will back stab you at a word wrongly out of place that breaches their code of totalitarian passivity they insist everyone adheres to. I detest their doctrine, in full! I will not forgive those who misled me into it and knowingly exploited whatever they could to maintain their long line of effluent. This is the only nostalgia I have of them and theirs – a sewer with a lasting stench! Good riddance to your whole system and I state it plainly, you are a parasite on all good people everywhere, not least those you mislead into your ranks to masquerade your oppressive, repressive delusional as if representative of good people. This is your cunning – trick some good folks into line and they will do the rest of your dirty work. Scumovahs Witnesses is the residue you prevail upon the unsuspecting mind! You cannot fathom how detestable your thinking is to me. Humanity would do well to be free of it! To poison the free mind into your dross is anathema to the very existence of humanity!

  37. Strongisland34 says:

    Emma;
    Where in the bible does it say that im supposed to follow after man or an organization??? God doesnt beg anyone to follow him…he stands at the door and knocks…and if you let him in than…no begging….Jesus Christ died on the cross for those that would believe….Jesus Christ is the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE…no man or organization….Unfortunately the religion that you follow has brainwashed you into thinking that Jesus came back to the earth invisibly and picked Jehovah Witnesses, who werent even called that back when he supposedly came back. Its funny the Bible only speaks of two comings of Jesus Christ…the one that already happened when he was born of a virgin and the one that is to come…no invisibly but every man will see Him…Its time to wake up and crack open that Bible and start to see what is really being taught….You dont need a man or an organization to interpret the Bible for you….Remember Jesus left His Holy Spirit to be our Helper…not a man or an organization….The day of Pentecost is when The Holy Spirit was given to the apostles who believed….and that same gift is given to all that believe….I pray that your eyes will be opened..

  38. Ray Owen says:

    This might be good if in the last 200 years humans had not realised that Aborigines had been isolated from most other land areas for over 70 thousand years before even the Jews arrived with their written codes etc and even the Egyptians were not quite cutting the stone yet. So its amazing to think humans lived for tens of thousands of years without a hint of any Abrahamic ideas running planet Earth. China is another unknown in all kinds of ways. We – over here in the western regions – have still got this idea our heritage has ruled Earth since some beginning or other when in fact most of the Earth never heard of it for most of Earths history. We won’t get into fossil records yet and how many millions of years ago that went the way of earthquakes and volcanos – just like Darwin in the Galapagos that were a relatively recently formed series of islands out of the sea that then evolved their own unique features due isolation from other species.

    I too was brought up having it drilled into my amygdala that love is to be put in ideas of old that I had no way of checking out. It took me the next several decades to rid myself of emotional bondage to those early tricks of mind to amygdala shenanigans.

    The humans brain has ways of doing this for life – as humans used to do with the idea everything went around the Earth due the sun across the sky by day. We are too easily swayed into thinking we see how it is. Worse however is to come when we are too easily swayed into loving such ideas. The amygdala does not easily give way to reasons in the same way a young child is reluctant to let go of Santa. It al seemed so magical after all….

    Anyhow, I come not to bring bad news, or to cause you pain, though the Santa years do leave a bitter taste in the senses of many children: so worse still for adults when we start to see how very impossible it is that the whole of humanity down the ages were ever even aware of what we think everyone ought to think truth – as in many religious ideas.

    It leaves us in a cheated barren phase wondering what on Earth to think or worse still to feel is the point of our life. This is no fun lesson for it is a deception put on the very core of our emotions. Realising most humans who ever lived never even had such beliefs as we are having is indeed a great shock to bear and worse still to rebuild a new world view out of. It took me a painful few years to do this and worse still the feeling I could never go back and relive life in the sensible ways I am now able to think apply to all humankind. No need for the religious ideas of men from an age long gone!!!

    There is a guiltless place where it’s up to us to treat each other well and no one is looking on to see we do so. It’s just up to those of us who see it as the best way to live and no need to make up stories about why. Also to oppose those low life who couldn’t care a sausage about who suffers and who doesn’t. That’s about where it’s at. A good a place as I ever got to. It makes complete sense and no guilt, obligation and fear of some unknown someone else can browbeat me, or anyone else, with.

    Keep a firm hold on your own mind for many will seek to take it from you – religion et al.

  39. Rowland Nelken says:

    Science does not proclaim its findings as God given Truth. It is based on the principle that new evidence may overturn current assumptions. The WBTS is not. Its litany of flip flops are all introduced as absolute, Jehovah delivered, once and for all Truths, and doubters will be administered the Armageddon death penalty. The WBTS is a mental dictatorship or it is nothing. The internet, fortunately, makes life difficult for dictators of every stripe, and an internet search by any any doubting JW will soon reveal that JW TRUTH is an ever changing pack of lies based on the say so of a bunch of self appointed, self righteous old geezers in Brooklyn who make a totally unevidenced claim that they are ‘The Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as mentioned by Jesus in Matt. 24. On this outrageous claim the entire authority of the WBTS bosses is based. Peter; I have asked countless JWs for evidence to back up the ‘F and D Slave’ claim of the JW bosses. None has supplied any. The reason is simple; there is none. Do you have any?

  40. Ray Owen says:

    What is amazing is how we have now got incredible ways to survey the skies and see how the Earth is but a minor planet going around a minor star to an extent both are undetectable on any picture of the universe. This is all good and interesting stuff! However the trouble with amygdala based information is that it resists all new findings and perspectives. For example; when we learn that the Bible itself is only a set of books that grew over many centuries in a relatively minor region of a fully inhabited globe – that carried on in totally different ways regardless – it begs the question as to what “belief” has ever been a universal “truth”. It takes not very long to see, in pure reason terms, that NEVER is the answer to this. Humans have been growing in knowledge and perspective over the millennia and as such cannot know any mind of any unknown suspect: their god!

    What we do have is the residue of minds of people from far less educated and enlightened times still subduing our amygdala emotions (usually from very young) and so brainwashing our emotions with ideas we are supposed to preserve till death. Hence belief becomes not a truth per se but a perversion of brain function to be subservient to an early emotional deception. Like a bear in a cage, the longer this goes on the more the human loses all sense of alternative till their fright and flight senses defer to the cage of their pains and oppression – the only place they know and feel as familiar; the belief system they inherited or adopted.

    The trouble then of course is that it is far trickier to make a new mind and emotional basis for life per se – even when the guilt obligation and fear of this imaginary god subsides. The space one is now in is quite daunting and new, uncertain and confusing. Such feelings are a cruelty on the escapee from indoctrination who have already suffered greatly the traumas of religious domination.

    Learning how to learn and how to take control of ones own mind – fully – is no easy journey, but nevertheless a far greater integrity than that of the demands of our long dead ancestors and the messages they were dominated by back in their day absent all the information humans have since discovered and communicated to each other.

  41. Rowland Nelken says:

    Great and informative post, Ray Owen. It sent me straight to Wikipedia and this new term ‘amygdala’. This deep retention of early years fears, a property, it appears, of this part of the brain, explains in part why it took me so long to purge my mind of the JW poison pumped in during my early years (c. 5 -14) at the Kingdom Hall. Those whose entire family are JWs and under pressure to not only get baptised, but to pioneer, must suffer far more from that cruel cult than I ever did. Sites like these provide JW victims not only with the opportunity of enlightenment about their selfish captors, the JW bosses, but also an insight into the tragic state of mind illustrated by the posts of JW true believers. They can only serve as a warning, either to steer clear of JWs, or, if already captured, to make for the Kingdom Hall exit.

  42. Rowland Nelken says:

    Strength to strength eh? JW growth has stalled, and with a whole queue of victims of JW pedophiles, protected by the JW org. queueing up in the courts worldwide, it is likely that the coming years will see extensive draining of JW coffers and thus, Kingdom Hall closures. Who says that JWs are God’s organisation? WHere is the evidence that the old farts in Brooklyn, the WBTS Gov. Bod. are the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as mentioned in MAtt. 24? I have asked countless JWs to produce evidence of this connection, and none has been able to. There is no evidence. The JW Gov. Bod. are the ‘F and D Slave’ for no other reason than that they say they are. Without other ‘evidence’ their entire authority collapses. The ENd is Nigh, guys; the end of a corrupt and damaging Adventist splinter of a cult.

  43. Ray Owen says:

    Thanks RN!

    Yeah, its good to know part of our brains are extra responsive to emotionally generated memory input and that unlike say in a science class where each new learned fact supersedes previous ones with enthusiasm, in the case of emotionally generated inputs to the brain, new information is less welcome and most likely to be dismissed with hostility.

    In a crude sense it can be seen how religious cults hyper focus on these contexts of brain information by generating holistic models ( Complete stories/ scripture about the whole world and the future and whom is running things unseen) that keep the brain going around in emotionally regenerated circles. Basically the information they conspire and cherry pick (as have all Biblical entrants down the ages) propagates servility to another’s mind/s, rather than relying on itself (ones own mind) to sieve out what it wants and does not want. Hence it then becomes a fear and guilt based function TO USE ONES OWN MIND whenever one takes in information that may be scientifically exciting but which ridicules religious precedents. For this reason the religious hierarchy seek their own preservation and power via such anti truths as bringing out the archenemy Satan as responsible for scientific findings or in fact any general good independent use of the human mind (they demand an emotive response/ defense to what really is a very interesting part of being human – the ability to discover and pass on new findings and information about us and our existence). SO religions and its network of thinking per se will only tolerate information it is able to include and adapt to as if it were all part of their “ideology” – otherwise Satan or apostacy.

    Hold that idea for a moment!

    The idea that if someone says something that insults a world view, no matter how true real and fact based.

    We are now in the territory of the sincere individual being oppressed and rejected due having found out or learned something worth knowing simply due the other persons amygdala networked emotions being willing to die before it will accept such information and ostracising the other person for not submitting to their emotional construct. Personality disorders function this way; making constant and unquestionable emotional demands just because they feel it!

    In a way it’s hardly any wonder we have so many personality disordered humans when we consider how prolific the religious mind is amongst us along with the plethora of emotionally generated power hungry delusions (scripture and their interpretation of what it demands of us) they propagate for the sakes of the hierarchy who enjoy a slave owners popularity or affluence or both – usually lifelong fringe benefits of some form or other and often multi generational for their offspring et al. If you find a long suffering hero or icon that contradicts this conclusion – it’s usually an exploitative tactic for someone who is in the ranks just below or thereabouts. Like the music industry – the one making most of the money isn’t necessarily the one standing center stage.

    Like the maestro of public speaking, Christopher Hitchen’s would often confirm, skepticism is a far more honest state of the human mind – than credulity; where one takes in information unfiltered like a child in a candy store, so eagerly that the later pains of realisation further inflict the mind and emotions with a trauma that it cannot nearly so easily retreat into vomiting.

  44. Rowland Nelken says:

    Real believing JWs have yet to say anything meaningful in defence of their obscene little cult. Beyond protection of pedophiles, mastering the arts of cult mind control, amassing a vast property portfolio, making a false and utterly unevidenced claim about the JW bosses being the Faithful and Discreet Slave, causing unnecessary deaths through their murderous blood edicts, equipping their old boss, Rutherford with a mansion, Cadillacs and servants and steering millions away from a decent education, the WBTS has achieved nothing. Its record is a disgrace and an insult to humanity. And then there is its string of duff prophecies and countless unnecessary Armageddon nightmares and broken families through shunning. Well, JWs – what can you say in defence of your foul misery making little cult?

  45. Ray Owen says:

    Your story is a fine collection of total confusion and mixed messages this religion screws around with your head about:

    1) No law on Earth comes close to that of the JW org.
    2) Earth laws are to be kowtowed to under the umbrella of JW org advice.
    3) Never think for yourself – just try to work out an emotional and intellectual path through all the contradictory stuff you see going on – in other words act like a zombie and think like a zombie then get ready for some punishment when you get accused of being a zombie!
    4)Goto 1.

    Now for your information: I can see how your head and heart has been screwed with and then you are told to go for another ride on the same carousel.

    The alternative is peculiar: Leave all the people you got to know and deal with the impossible task of finding new friends who already usually have their lifelong regular associates ( can’t be done effectively); Kowtow to stuff you despise and curry favour when you can from the friend you half-have and take the joy if it exists amongst the few you know well – but remember you can never be yourself with them or relax the rules that stop you doing so else you will be back in the JW zombie courts with brown nosed elders et al ( They just love the brown; yummy to them); Do like I did and surf beliefs per se going through; pagan beliefs, eastern ideas; panentheism etc. You will find some have a great simple philosophy like do as you will but harm none, however in reality humans are full of bullshit and are full of double binds where they think they know what you think and so have the right to expect you to prove them wrong for what they suspect (kinda brown nose to their own ass kinda thinking); Then there is atheism where I got to with a hint of Robert Anton Wilsons “Who is the master who makes the grass green (because to other creatures eyes it isn’t green at all etc).” and I find there that you are on your own for the most part because often there are still loads of religious brown nose heads in your neighbourhood who think atheism is a satan incarnate (now I know who I am and what I think; which always was a pretty good mix for others since I rarely hate someone lest they keep rattling my bones on a regular habit they have – but you still can’t escape all these brown nosed regulars sticking their brains where the sun don’t shine and expecting you to do a few routines for them and their endless suspicions).

    My bottom line? All the writings of man through history that pretend to know a superior mind is riding some clouds in a place nearby can go and do one; I reserve my rights to say that I know as well as anyone who ever existed whether this mind communicated to me alone and in my own solitude absent me having ever read or seen a word from another polluting my perspective on this: claiming it wants this or that from everyone as unquestionable. Hence ANY scripture is as useless to me as yesterdays weather and all those who keep on talking about it are in the same historic place. To my mind it is for humans to agree to their own humanitarian rules and to know this is what they are and these are things that might be changed from time to time and not under some putrid threat of everlasting torment which usually corrupts a human mind with very unhealthy sufferings and also often unhealthy reactions to said sufferings for all involved.

    I enjoyed you sharing part of your journey with us – thank you so much! I was once in some similar difficulty. Where I am now is not necessarily a better place but it is a place more free from brown noses and my own brain collecting its share ipso facto ( I think the American Psychiatry Association refers to this as catching fleas as when a personality disordered individual gives you some of their behaviours and woes etc). I’m sure many in ALL religions are a little like the bankers who simply invest their deceptions there for fringe benefits and in reality hide the fact they don’t believe a word of it or anything like as much as you do. I grew up amongst groups who functioned like that per se; always acting friendly to outsiders and shafting them as the opportunity arose. In this respect religion is an ideal shafting vehicle, so it’s little wonder some who rise to the top are more exploitative than the sincere human can understand. If you have a mass of investors , how easy can it be to negotiate the ranks and get access to all the benefits one might desire? For those of us who spent years in the guilt and obligation mind frame it is unbelievable to learn than many never feel guilt and simply dish it out to control and manipulate others by rulings and double binds that they only kowtow to for the power it gives them. They are the ones who are judging personas and excuse all the stuff they indulge in by convincing themselves they atone for this by beating up on others – either unfairly or legitimate. PD individuals function in the same way and they really believe their own BS. This takes me back to what I said earlier: don’t quote scripture at me and not expect me to see brown all over your face!!!!!!!!!!! Some good advice the next time an elder brings out his New World Translation. I know you will be offended by this next point, though I intend none whatsoever; I NOW think and NOW feel in 100% of my psyche, of the Bible as of little value and predominantly as an outdated set of ideas of long dead men! I still hold the good treatment of each other as its only worthy message though that could be got from who we are per se. I once had no clue how I could ever lose the importance I held the Bible as – as if the only true book for all humanity. Here I am though as empirical world evidence taught me to first think differently and second to lose the painful emotional release/liberation from it all.

    Best wishes to you my fellow human!

  46. Rowland Nelken says:

    Several JWs have left their comments and, having failed utterly to defend their cult, have disappeared. This happens also on every Facebook page connected with JWs. What do they do when it must be clear to them that their cult and its pretensions are shown to be indefensible, and that they, (the Believing JWs) come to realise they are nothing more than pathetic dupes of a corrupt corporation which uses the threat of Armageddon annihilation in order to force yet more productivity from its unpaid labour force? Do they slink back to the Kingdom Hall and try to wipe out any doubts that their online encounters have generated? How do they square the lies and murderous inconsistencies of the organisation that has dominated their lives, with the notion that JWdom is the fount of Jehovah issued absolute TRUTH? Perhaps some JWs could explain this mystery, or maybe some recently emerged (or should I say ‘escaped’ or ‘released’ JWs) for whom the memory of this dilemma is sufficiently recent, could take us through how they dealt with the enlightenment and Kingdom Hall exit episode.

  47. Ray Owen says:

    Amazing that Marvel comics have an obsessive equivalence in the JW brain. Batman versus The Joker is how the whole universe ticks over. The idea there is a big goody and a big baddy! These two theatrical characters loom large in every emotion of the JW (and many a religious mind) as “Totalitarian thought submissive emotions” that will defy ALL reason and sensible discussion. The subverted mind exists and even depends upon itself now thus can only recycle the stuff it has already been hoodwinked by.

    You see, any and all logic, discovery and whatever else you could think to educate a human about are totally blanked out; by the emotions of FEAR and the FOOLISHNESS of misplaced loyalty (fabricated, fiction taught love). These artificial brain constructs or imprinted emotions then form a lifetime barrier to a believer to ALL information; no matter how real, no matter how true. Like a sieve mounted on a heated mould, everything will be filtered out or squeezed to fit their universal fiction (scripture) else dumped as archenemy attacks.

    In essence, the JW brain has had a historical set of monster memes (ideas that most humans down the ages have been proven to submit to) redesign their feelings and thoughts to fit its own clone production line for replication of same.

    It’s practically impossible to see this if you are a fully hooked follower, still going along its conveyor belt. Ones emotions still overrides the clear thinking.

    I recall a warning that I experienced at my first post baptism assembly when I went over to chat with some protestors and for the first time ever found that all this witnessing we were doing was NOT for these APOSTATES under pain of my own expulsion. Silly me having thought till then they were a bunch of freethinkers ! In fact , what a naive jerk I was and had no idea of this fact or sadly anyone around me who wasn’t full of the same.

  48. Ray Owen says:

    Apostacy is that term used to subjugate the human mind with fear and insanity: that any ideas other than its own are evil or born of malicious intent, not only in the short term but as some universal and unquestionable rule lasting beyond ones lifetime and on down the centuries. The very idea of apostacy, as even a concept worth acknowledging, is bereft of intelligence per se. It cannot be a kindness to any human mind sincerely wanting to learn and thrive, to be told there are questions about things it must not only never ask but also subdue its sense and thoughts about due some long dead humans having already bullied this ruling into the local communities and used it down the ages to enslave people with – either by force , grooming, emotional seduction or general deviance.

    So to you who shake inside with fear at the very idea an apostate mind is threatening you I say, ” Grow up, get a grip of your own mind and don’t bullshit me with all your FOG (Fear, Obligation & Guilt).

  49. Rowland Nelken says:

    Excellent comment, Ray Owens. And boy, do the JWs exploit the power of that term. Dare to question Brooklyn issued JW TRUTH and it’s Armageddon annihilation for you. And when JW TRUTH changes, by order of the WBTS bosses, as it so often does, re. blood, shunning, Christmas celebrations, Jesus’s beard or whatever, are the JW bosses apostates? No, they are Jehovah’s exclusive channel of communication with earthlings. How do we know the JW Gov. Bod. are the Faithful and Discreet Slave? Because the JW bosses tell us they are. No questions; that’s apostacy and the Armageddon death penalty.

  50. Ray Owen says:

    One of the weirdest states of mind JW’s , not to mention many people in general, have is one of superior moral standing – as if following their own code of regulation is more highly respectable in some way. It beggars belief as to how so many people use this snake oil tactic to transplant respectability onto what are essentially lies and worse still emotionally vapid lies. Those holding belief in their lists of rulings and whatever book of historical junk they demand is “holy” are in truth bullying the rest of us with superiority feelings: making us feel obliged to feel they deserve superior respect for making up/adopting historical lies and sounding them off as if from some perfect source of universal grace. WHAT TRASH TALK and I CONDEMN IT FOR WHAT IT IS: half baked guesses by humans of long ago about things they were bereft of any real understanding and about.

    This is the landfill site of historic human thought garbage we are still living under the pollution of and it seems is set to long continue unchallenged and getting away with being given totally undeserved power and kudos.

    Humans who believe it are most usually the victims of monster ideas that have grown into giants most unsuspecting humans struggle to see for what they are. These BIG sets of ideas most usually do like the multinationals and high finance – browbeat the blue collar worker into kowtowing to the production line of delusions they insist is for our own good and most certainly never to be questioned: under pain of being ignored , sidelined and generally bullied out of service. Such is very much the JW community I ever knew. Brown noses with Cherry Blossom – and the higher up the more chestnut their smiles. What a load of snake oil addicts!!!

  51. eyes opened says:

    Maybe the first question you should ask Jehovah God is to open your eyes to the truth. There is with out question a God who sent his Son to die for us. But what boggles my mind as a former witness is why the people in the JW organization dont do some simple research and see how and why this Organization was started. If God sent his son over 2000 yrs ago why would he need Charles T Russell to come a little over a 100 yrs ago and start or restart Christianity. Do yourself a favor. Pray, ask and let the Holy Spirit guide you to all truth , which is not found in the NWT. Have you ever asked yourself why the JW’s are not allowed to research the history of the organization? What do you know about the man that started it? What do you know about his wife? Have you ever read any of her books? or have you heard her version of Charles T Russell? If you really want to know the truth then I encourage you to remove the shackles of deception and in faith step out and search for the truth. My heart was broken when I realized that the JWS was not the Truth but God in his loving mercy began to open my eyes and set free from the pain and heart break of that deception.
    I was also abused as a child by this organization yet I never blamed God only the men involved. I Love God and I have spent my Life trusting and believing Him, despite the faults of man. Its not about weather or not God will ultimately take care of the injustice of the world ( Because he will ) The question we need to ask ourselves is ” Do we live a life that imitates Christ , are we a reflection of His Love and do we live lives that bring Glory to our Heavenly Father? Can you really look at the JW organization and answer yes? Pay attention to how anyone that is not a JW is treated and pay even closer attention to how many families have been divided/destroyed. My heart goes out to you because I know that you really love God as most JW’s do. Its not even your fault. There is a master deceiver that s really responsible for the lies. I pray that you find truth and that you will have the courage to ask God to show you.

  52. Ray Owen says:

    No there was no son of divinity ever sent. Just NO! We already know humans were in Australasia 80000 years before this Middle Eastern myth even got spread around. Suppose it were true – what took it another 1800 years to get the story over there? Just nonsense. Even a child today can send a story worldwide in seconds. Some god your hoping on right there. “Erm sorry folks my mobile takes 1800 years to get around.”

  53. Goldylocksnz says:

    Disfellowshipping is wrong, wrong, wrong…. what is just as bad, is allowing teenagers and young people to get baptized… Jesus is our perfect example. He was baptized past the bloom of youth, in his 30′s.
    I long for the day for the big “D” doctrine to be removed!!! They will be judged themselves.

  54. Rowland Nelken says:

    Do you, Peter, understand the word ‘dates’? Murderous flip flops on blood transfusion are nothing to do with dates. Protecting pedophiles has nothing to do with dates. Unless Abraham and Isaac are going to be resurrected in San Diego in some year other than 1925, then Rutherford’s idiot prophecy in ‘Millions Now Living Will Never Die’ is nothing to do with dates either. Jehovah either approves of Christmas celebrations or he does not, no matter the date. You, Peter, have been drilled by your Theocratic Ministry School only to prey on the lost, lonely and vulnerable in your mission to ensnare others into your cruel cult. When faced with those of us who know your cult from the inside, you have nothing to say. Your cult is indefensible and you must know it. Here’s to your escape!

  55. KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

    Ray Owen January 30, 2013 at 3:01 pm said:

    (And I appreciate the sentiment, empathize if not largely agree)

    “I left decades before the cognitive dissonance relented and I finally stopped having sympathy and subservience to various residual forms of their intellectual and emotional garbage. I will not forget the ones who got me in who were several generations into this organisation , or the humungous lies they pedaled to me which, became apparent down the line. It became incredibly obvious many are in it and don’t believe it all, yet will back stab you at a word wrongly out of place that breaches their code of totalitarian passivity they insist everyone adheres to. I detest their doctrine, in full! I will not forgive those who misled me into it and knowingly exploited whatever they could to maintain their long line of effluent. This is the only nostalgia I have of them and theirs – a sewer with a lasting stench! Good riddance to your whole system and I state it plainly, you are a parasite on all good people everywhere, not least those you mislead into your ranks to masquerade your oppressive, repressive delusional as if representative of good people. This is your cunning – trick some good folks into line and they will do the rest of your dirty work. Scumovahs Witnesses is the residue you prevail upon the unsuspecting mind! You cannot fathom how detestable your thinking is to me. Humanity would do well to be free of it! To poison the free mind into your dross is anathema to the very existence of humanity!”

    With regard however to the comments that Ray keeps coming back to regarding the Aborigines and “80,000 years being in Australia Pacifica, etc” I do recommend this link for consideration and not that I endorse everything in it or the source but the information seems solid enough that it is worth ruminating on…

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v15/n3/how-long-have-aborigines-lived-in-australia

  56. Faithful Witness says:

    Thank you for your thoughtful response to this website. Your words give me insight into how devout JW’s are taught to think and reason. I have great respect and compassion for faithful JW’s. I almost became one myself, but have happily found myself drawn CLOSER to Jehovah and the Jesus, since recovering from the shock I felt when the true nature of this society was revealed to me. I have found peace that passes all understanding, and the abundance of the Holy Spirit in my life is evident every single day.

    I have a hard time understanding why a baptized JW is more pleasing to Jehovah, than a baptized Christian like myself. What makes me an apostate, when I am serving Jehovah every day? My children have learned more BIBLE truths since we started going to a “nominal” Baptist church, than they ever did at a Kingdom Hall. Their love of Jesus comes out in spontaneous songs, the way they interact with each other and with friends, and the choices they make each day. Anyone who would take the time to speak to either of my children, would be hard-pressed to find any fault in their faith or love for Christ and the sacrifice made with His blood. Could we be better Christians? Of course! We have our own tract ministry, that is just getting started. We are not as organized as the JW’s, but our humanity and love is part of our servitude. Jesus loves us, and we know it! He is merciful and the grace we have in our lives, is proof of His divine power and existence.

    As we were studying with the JW’s, they encouraged us to examine the origins of religious traditions, rituals and secular holidays, etc… I never had a problem with separating from these worldly “pagan” celebrations, if it was truly pleasing to Jehovah. When we began to examine the truth about the teachings, traditions and rituals of the JW religion, we were confronted with a shocking response from our Bible teacher.

    As an honest, open-hearted servant of Christ, I simply could no longer lie to my beloved friends at the Kingdom Hall. I care too much for them, and my own relationship with Jehovah, to stumble anyone else or appear as if I am belittling their beliefs.

    We (my husband, my 2 kids and I) are among the very few that I’ve come across, who walked away from the JW meetings, and have since joined another Christian congregation. We were so convinced that we were sentencing ourselves to death, that we stayed away from the “evil” church for over a year. It turns out, the pastor isn’t really a servant of satan after all… He’s not perfect like Christ, but neither is the WTBS… See any irony here? Should you Keep following them, even if they are repeatedly wrong and misleading you?

    I am so grateful for the JW’s, and their knock on my door!! It is because of these wonderful people, that I found my way back to Jehovah. I have heard Jesus calling me a few times throughout my life, but it wasn’t until we started our home Bible study, that I really answered that call. Thank you, Jehovah, for a discerning and intelligent mind! Above all, thank you for helping me to see the true nature of Jesus Christ, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Host of Hosts! I will no longer deny Christ! Jesus is Lord!

    Jesus paid the ransom sacrifice for the sins of all. You just have to accept this salvation, and allow Jesus to reside in your heart. You can find peace, when you acknowledge Him as your true savior. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, the life. No one gets to the father, but by me.” Jesus was not a liar, and he warned us about getting misdirected and deceived into following the false teachings of men. Nowhere in his instructions, will you find him telling you to go to an organization of men for your spiritual food. The Bible is for everyone to read… Jesus can deal directly with you on a personal level. He is that powerful! Believe in Him!

    When you refuse to partake in communion or the Lord’s supper at the Memorial ceremony, you are denying Christ himself. Every person who passes that plate and refuses the partake of the bread and wine, is refusing the sacrifice Jehovah made for him. Satan is happy when the Memorial attendance numbers are reported… Look how many actively deny Christ, while pretending to serve Jehovah!

    You are following the teachings, and doing your best to please Jehovah.
    Your faithfulness, and your willingness to contribute to this discussion, is commendable, and shows that you are still capable of using your own mind to make decisions.

    Ask yourself: are you serving Jehovah’s will, or are you seeking Jehovah’s approval by your association with the Watchtower? The watchtower is not a god. Your instructions are in the Bible. Do not rely on books and magazines from a misguided publishing company to make decisions that concern your eternal life. We are talking about eternity here! You will have to answer for your mistakes, and unfortunately, that is going to include the number of people that you helped to mislead away from serving Christ.

    If the WTBS is truly the sole channel for Jehovah, they will not fear examination. Jehovah does not make errors. He does not lie or give us false teachings (that allow people to die), and he would not direct his slave to protect men who harm children. If the WTBS refuses to answer for themselves, how are we to know if they are Jehovah’s true organization? Are they above reproach? No! They will answer to Jesus Christ, when he actually does visibly return. Everyone will see Him, and Every knee will bow and admit He is God. Will you stand in judgment for ignoring the signs that are being given to you today? Go directly to the words of Christ for your answers. He is mediator to all men who seek Him. Seek Him! Seek His counsel for yourself… You don’t need to refer to a book that reasons with you on what you’re supposed to think the Bible says.

    The fact that you are reading these pages, is a sign that you are seeking the real truth about Jehovah, and how He wants your service to appear. Any true organization will be happy to have themselves examined. Beware of anyone who tries to withhold information from you, especially about themselves. There are many faithful servants of Christ, praying for you each day. I have a special compassion for JW’s, who have proven themselves to be worthy friends and associates. When the great tribulation is at hand, I hope you will find yourself on the side with Christ Jesus. Get away from the wicked one. He is lying to you through the governing body, whose conscious mission at this point, is to preserve their own positions of power by isolating JW people from the truths that are being revealed about the society itself.

    Truth does not fear examination!

  57. hammar says:

    To all who don’t know that the word “Jehovah” is actually a Catholic word name. From the 12th century created by a Spanish Catholic monk. It is not a Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word that was used in the early Bibles or Testaments.

  58. Mark says:

    My philosophy teacher told me that ‘truth is eternal…it doesn’t change’.
    What always intrigued me at the KH was the excitement and anticipation when a ‘new truth’ was revealed, that automatically counteracted the existing truth. As the light was getting brighter, the new truths came thick and fast.
    My eyes were really opened when I asked an elder when the ‘new truths’ would be the ‘final truths’ and why we didn’t call it ‘current truth’. His reply that we should be grateful we aren’t taught Christendom’s lies still makes me smile today.
    Personally, I left it all behind ten years ago, having been blinded for over 25 years. And I am so so so much happier now than I have ever been.

  59. KtotheRAD "Konrad" aka Kurt Hennig says:

    hammar says:

    September 11, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    “To all who don’t know that the word “Jehovah” is actually a Catholic word name. From the 12th century created by a Spanish Catholic monk. It is not a Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word that was used in the early Bibles or Testaments”

    Yes, most of us do know that the pronunciation according to the Tetragrammaton is far more likely to be something closer to Yehuwah or Yahuwah or Yeshuwah but those of us who believe, it will yet be revealed to us at the appropriate time as it is in fact that sacred…The Tetragrammaton was given as a “working name” for now…so that it could not be profaned by the likes of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society!

  60. Kevin Kennedy says:

    This Is apace is for all who agree with the opinions expressed, say something favorable about the witnesses and get ready to be call a troll, trolling around watchtower propaganda.

    Censorship is everywhere, here too.

  61. Rowland Nelken says:

    Kevin Kennedy. Feel free to say something favourable about the Witnesses. I do. I love the way they have redefined TRUTH. I used to imagine it was something that was immutable and eternal. Thanks to my Theocratic Ministry School training I now realise that it is anything announced by the JW bosses. It remains true even when one announcement contradicts a previous announcement. It is wonderful to know too, that those who died for want of blood transfusions, will, when they are resurrected on a Paradise Earth, learn that subsequent generations of Witnesses were permitted to receive blood fractions. It is also thrilling to know that Jehovah will murder all those who donated those same blood fractions. I am also impressed with the evidence for the Gov. Bod’s declaration that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. The Gov. Bod. say they are and God appointed them so they must be right. I don’t get upset about all these apostates saying horrid and untrue things about the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Kevin Kennedy. We both have faith that Jehovah will murder the lot of them when he gets around at last to doing his Armageddon. He will also slaughter you and me, Kevin Kennedy, for reading and contributing to apostate websites. But that’s TRUTH and Jehovah’s justice for you.

  62. Kevin Kennedy says:

    Are you crazy , say something favorable about the witnesses here? Get my head ripped off..?

    The truth is in the bible, that we cant quite see it is s different story
    I joined the group that has leadership. All groups have leadership and usually people look to them for guidance, in any group, why should it be different here with the witnesses, we take the doctors word for things then things advance new things are learned, you’re going to stop treatment because they were wrong?

    I doubt it very much that any of us could be more loving and Just that God Jehovah.

  63. Truth says:

    What is being portrayed he is nothing but lies, only absurd lies. We Christians who believe in the God of Creation are not even supposed to make comments at these sites or demonstrate and kind of response but remarks made here about Jehovah God are nothing but lies. But, we are told about satan and we know how he works so we expect this kind of torment. At least WE know what side we are one. If anyone wants to kn ow the TRUTH, JW.ORG. Thank you, Jehovah, for the wonderful life you have given me and my loving family of brothers and sisters, the only true brothers and sisters on the planet of Creation, who refuse to take up arms against anyone. Nor do we denounce our heavenly Father, Jehovah. We praise HIM for all he does for us.

  64. Truth says:

    Luke 23: 34 – Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

  65. Rowland Nelken says:

    Please point out the lies, TRUTH. We need your Jehovah issued wisdom to enlighten and save us.

  66. Rowland Nelken says:

    There is someone calling him/herself TRUTH writing that there are lies on this site. He/she has not, however, explained. I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and believed the Elders in my congregation when they declared that Armageddon, the great battle when Jehovah would murder all non Jehovah’s Witnesses, was due before the end of the 20th century. It did not happen. The 20th century Armageddon had, however, been presented to me as unquestionable and absolute TRUTH as it had been issued to us via Jehovah God’s exclusive earthly mouthpiece, Nathan Homer Knorr, the then President of the Watchtower Society, and thus the Faithful and Discreet Slave as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24. This TRUTH turned out to be a lie. My subsequent studies have revealed that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have a track record of duff prophecy and doctrinal flip flops, all presented as if they were the TRUTH. Please, TRUTH, we would like to know where, on this site, are the lies.

  67. Louise says:

    Some of the kindest most thoughtful, non judgmental, warm, generous and humane people i have met in my life are not Jehovah witnesses. They will all die though according to Jehovahs witness beliefs. It doesn’t matter that they have tried their best to help those around them and are more deserving of entering a paradise through their daily altruistic deeds than most Jehovah witnesses. It even doesn’t matter that their sole purpose for doing what they did was because they cared and they wanted to see the other person happy, even without any hope, intent or thought of gaining everlasting life. They will die because they aren’t Jehovah witnesses. If that is the way that god thinks and operates i don’t want to be there.I dont believe for a second that he is that sadistic.

    Fear makes people tolerate oppression, unkindness, unfairness. It makes a decent person watch on as bad things happen to basically good people.
    What Jehovah witnesses expect from their brothers and sisters is perfection they strive for it and they are afraid to make mistakes because they might die might loose out or be shunned by everyone else who are also afraid to make mistakes.
    What this religion promotes is fear. Love has no fear.
    I have read the bible myself. Not because i was being forced to in daily bible texts but because i wanted to. It talks a lot about love and what love is. Love is forgiving love does not take account of an injury etc. I do believe that when Jehovahs witnesses look at those words they pick and chose who they should love and who they should forgive and let others dictate that for them. Dis- fellowshiping for example is not showing love it is not loving your neighbor it is taking in to account an injury it is not forgiving. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and judge not lest you be judged yourself are they not part of the bible?
    The fact is that we are all human none of us is perfect we all make mistakes. Mistakes are a huge part of learning not just what not to do but also how to feel compassion for others based on experience. Life is not black and white. We are not either good or bad. The watchtower Awake and any other literature only strive to promote segregation and fear of the very people that they are supposedly trying to reach.
    Jesus associated with thieves and murderers because he understood what i and many others do which is that sometimes the people who’ve been shown the least love are the ones who deserve and need it shown to them the most and to simply avoid and shun them will never help them.
    your actions are what will speak for you. The way you show compassion and care and love on a daily basis, not because you might have everlasting life but because your heart tells you. It isnt about indoctrinating people in to a system of rules and regulations, how many bible studies you have whether you gave a great talk whether you give loads of cash its about being who you naturally are and showing care and love and anything other than that is a misrepresentation of what the bible is about.
    The bible society can churn out new rules and new doctines and twist it all they like but their haughtiness in believing that they are the chosen ones and the most favorable in gods eyes is their very undoing. The bigoted and self righteous way they manipulate the bible to fit in with their own arrogance is to me sickening.
    I once asked my Jehovahs witness mother a question.We were talking about Jehovahs witnesses reluctance to help charities other than their own especially other religious charities. I asked If we had a tsunami and you had to help someone, who would you help? Would it be the people in your street or people in your congregation? Her answer was My brothers and sisters at the kingdom Hall. Yet god says to love your neighbor what about the good Samaritan i asked? My brothers and sisters are my neighbor i would help them first was her reply….And yet other religions do not pick and choose who they help nor base it on which religion they’re in? We are no part of this world we help one another as one family was her reply. I found her answer disturbing.
    I am not a Jehovahs Witness and for all you witnesses coldly waiting for the end to come and for me to die just know i am prepared to die for my beliefs because if god truly loves people he will not kill them for being imperfect because we were all born that way. It is not mine or anyone elses place as a fellow imperfect human to judge or reprimand anyone else. If Armageddon is coming then god is big enough himself to do his own work and who on earth do they think they are, special? For all They know the mere fact they are so ready and eager and willing to see me die whether it be on his behalf or not might be what makes him chose it to be them.
    Love is something that comes from choice it is not forced or taught it is shown in actions and being frank, i know people who are Atheists, Gay and Catholics who deserve saving more than most Jehovahs Witnesses do.

  68. Kevin Kennedy says:

    I too was raised as a JW, i guess we as a whole had common sense, sense enough to know that humans don’t know , especially about Armageddon and when it comes.

    Some people like attention, we were raised to look at the scriptures, and not to idolize people, when they said this and that we said what does the bible say, if Jesus does not not nobody knows the end of that story period.

    So i or we as a whole family took that with a grain of salt, we knew what the bible said about that subject there. and when nothing happened we said there, you see. they have their mouths under their noses just like everyone else.

    I learned very quickly when i was around 15 years old that they , i am talking the org, did not know all, I felt the heavenly calling started reading found out it was kinda closed, and to me at that age they were the MAX with a capital M. How can they be so wrong about this because i am not crazy, so that cause a lot of soul searching to see if i was just plain wrong or just crazy, i was neither,. they were wrong, and it was corrected, years later i will give you that but it was corrected and we all knew that that day wld come and it came. many years later i still have my hope it was no fluke. there was an article in a mag that asked DO YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ? .. and we asked that question many many times, in order to keep us present and awake, Bottom line you can’t believe everything you are told by human beings just like yourself

    So i know not to take it so seriously.

  69. Kevin Kennedy says:

    It’s all very obvious i don’t want to get into that specially with you, resistance is futile.

    Thanks anyway

  70. Rowland Nelken says:

    What, exactly, is your point, Kevin Kennedy? Do you refuse to take the JWs seriously to the extent of binning the whole fraudulent cult? Are you simply defying them on the details and their presumption of omniscience? Your post does not make that clear. As a JW you have to believe the lot, no matter how absurd or contradictory or it’s an Armageddon zapping for you.

    According to the Bible and Koran the End was due within the lifetime of the Disciples, St. Paul or Mahomet. Take your pick. It is as well not to take the Bible, Koran or any other man made book too seriously, especially if the writers pretend their book comes from God. Please try and explain your self with some clarity, Kevin Kennedy.

  71. Rowland Nelken says:

    We shall never know, it seems, what it was that ‘Truth’ and Kevin Kennedy thought they were on about. An unsubstantiated declaration and some meandering waffle convey nothing beyond the image of a muddle headed writer.

  72. Kevin Kennedy says:

    Fraudulent cult, no i don’t think so, Defying them no.
    i have no need to defy them, i simply choose to have things make sense and usually what doesn’t make sense is not true.

    And i don’t have to believe anything i don’t choose to, interesting that you don’t even believe in the bible, and like many here are trigger happy with the witnesses.

    I like the group, enjoy being with them, love the teachings, the principles. i am not going to go on because of obvious reasons suffice to say that i am very happy.

    It’s sorta like a woman, or a man, you break up.. as long as you have ill will or are overly concerned with that person they’ve GOT YOU!
    kinda the same thing happens with the organization, the fact that people dedicate entire pages to critique the WATCHTOWER ORG speaks volumes,
    Think you left the jw’s behind? think again, it is present with you always, as long as you are consumed with this subject you are a slave to the WATCHTOWER ORG.

    You know when you are really over a gal? when you simple don’t care any more. the same applies here.

  73. Truth says:

    The “blind” cannot see, the “deaf” cannot hear, the “heartless” cannot feel. How could you possibly be enlightened? Get behind me, satan.

  74. Rowland Nelken says:

    So, Kevin Kennedy. You are at ease with looking forward to Armageddon day when Jehovah murders the greater part of the human race for the refusal to believe and obey every diktat issued by the JW bosses. Where there is evil it should be exposed and brought to an end. That is why victims of Roman Catholic priestly pedophilia have worked for years to expose the crimes and bring the criminals to justice. That is why the hunt for Nazi war criminals continued for decades after WW2. It would be utterly irresponsible, knowing the misery and death caused by the repulsive JW cult, not to work towards its exposure and destruction. That you are seemingly content with hanging out in a disgusting and murderous outfit is utterly shocking. That you do not believe, even, every bit of ever changing doctrine spouted by your bosses means that they look forward to the day God murders you. To value an outfit that wishes you murdered suggests a very peculiar mindset indeed.

  75. Faithful Witness says:

    Kevin, I agree with your advice about letting a past relationship keep hold on your life. I walked away from the JW’s and didn’t look back. I was not baptized, so it only hurt a little bit to break up with “friends” who only loved me when I went to meetings.

    A problem arose, when my JW family started punishing me and my innocent children, simply because we had decided not to join the org with them. Our once big happy family, has become divided. This sad situation has sucked me back in!

    I wish I could walk away and not look back, but God has forced me to make another u-turn and reach out for my parents, sister and most importantly, my niece and nephew, who are being forced into this. They have been ripped from our family and taught twisted things about their cousins. My nephew actually thinks we worship satan.

    I agree that we should not let the WTS have any importance in our lives now. Until they release their grips on my family and the innocent children inside, I can not, as a believer in Christ, turn my back anymore. I love my JW family, despite what they are probably saying about me to their kids, after every meeting. The “us vs. them” doctrine is a scare tactic that they are using to control people. I hope your family is intact.

    I’m glad you are happy as a JW. If it gives you peace and fulfillment, there is no reason for anyone to try to stop you from believing what you want. You were created with free will and the capability to make decisions for yourself. I wish you all the best, but try to be a little more compassionate. Jesus was. Are you familiar with the parable of the Good Samaritan?

  76. Rowland Nelken says:

    ‘I’m glad you are happy as a JW. If it gives you peace and fulfillment, there is no reason for anyone to try to stop you from believing what you want. ‘ said Faithful Witness of Kevon Jackson.

    Are you serious? Jackson’s beliefs are the cause of your split family and heartache. Beliefs not acted upon may be harmless. But JW beliefs are acted upon, and are cruel in the case of shunning, and murderous in the case of blood transfusion. Those of us who know the evils of this cult have a duty to stop the spread of these poisonous and damaging beliefs.

    If we followed the advice of Faithful Witness, however, we would write the following; ‘Well he belongs to Al Quaedr and the God issued command to engage in Jihad. If he wants to murder infidels, well that’s his belief’ or ‘ He likes to lynch negroes, but then he belongs to the Ku Klux Klan and those are his beliefs and that’s his business’. Or what about; ‘He’s a really dedicated Nazi and his beliefs demand that he work for the extermination of the Jews, Gays and Gypsies’.

    No, Faithful Witness, where ‘beliefs’ as disgusting and damaging as those of the Ku Klux Klan, Al Quaedr, the JWs and Nazis are concerned, those of us who know about the evils of these organisations have a duty to expose them and campaign for their dissolution.

  77. Rowland Nelken says:

    ‘You know when you are really over a gal? when you simple don’t care any more. the same applies here.’ wrote Kevin Jackson.

    Do you really expect to be taken seriously? How many people have ex girlfriends who are responsible for thousands of deaths due to refusal of blood transfusion? How many ex girlfriends have left a global trail of split families through shunning in their wake? How many ex girlfriends have manipulated millions, through the dark arts of cult mind control, and convinced them that they are God’s appointed and that their every word must be obeyed on pain of death at Armageddon? How many ex girlfriends have caused millions of lives to be wasted through edicts about higher education, and left otherwise capable people to be exploited as unpaid mag. pushers for a global property corporation? My analogy with Nazi hunters is valid. Your analogy with ex girlfriends displays the mind rot needed to remain as a faithful member of a cruel mind control cult.

  78. Faithful Witness says:

    Rowland,
    Take a breath. This isn’t a war. I appreciate your thoughts, and I agree with some of what you said.
    I beg to differ. Kevin is a grown man, and actually is entitled to an opinion, and so are you, and me too. Everyone should be accountable for their own actions, whether they be shunning or accepting your family members, blindly following a false prophet because it feels good, or judging and using an anonymous forum to vent your frustrations on someone you don’t know anything about. Forgiveness goes a long way.

    Judgment is not ours. Be compassionate. I think if he looks inside himself, Kevin will find he is missing something. There is no real peace for JW’s. But each has to make that decision for themselves. This is not a peaceful or loving religion, but if everyone around you is claiming to have peace, you believe it. He has never been out, and I commend him for looking at this website in the first place. He is examining the truth, whether he realizes it or not.

    I find this website to be an expression of one man’s opinions, which I highly value. Cedars makes good observations. Are they complete and always in agreement with my personal beliefs? No. I am still willing to read and consider his viewpoint, since his life and exposure to this invasive group is much different than mine. We both have family we love, trapped inside the tower. This simple fact makes me keep tabs on what is happening with the JW’s.

    As far as I know, there is not yet a member of the governing body posting comments here. We are all mere humans. I’m sorry if I offended you.

  79. Rowland Nelken says:

    Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Faithful Witness. Of course we are ‘entitled’ to an opinion. No law on earth, nor power of enforcement, can change what is inside our heads. If, however, those opinions are damaging and dangerous (like those of Nazis, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Ku Klux Klan and Al Quaedr), those of us who are aware of the damage and danger have a duty to educate and, if possible, alter those opinions before they lead to lynchings, gassings, deaths through refusal of blood or car bombs. I am not happy that Kevin, or anyone else, is content through having been lulled into believing self righteous fantasies about surviving Armageddon to live on a Paradise Earth after God has murdered the rest of us. I too, hope that Kevin, and the 7 million other JWs, are released from the bondage of that malign cult. The campaign can work, both by informing rank and file JWs of their pitiable condition as unpaid mag. distributors for a global publishing and property corporation, as well as by chasing the bosses through the courts and hitting the organisation where it hurts, in the pocket.

  80. Gypsy Sam says:

    People have to awaken on their own and start having real questions that they want answered. Last year I had to answer where was the money coming from for Watchtower to pay out millions on the Candace Conti case…why was I constantly seeing JW’s act more uncaring about others, making comments on facebook to insult other religions, being excited about earthquakes and expressing no sorrow for lost lives at all…reconnecting with childhood JW friends that had left on their own accord because they discovered TTATT, yet being emotionally blackmailed by their families who will only love or accept them if they do it the WT way (not according to the actual Bible, or Jesus example of mercy)…why aren’t children abused by other JW’s and rape victims shown love in the congregation…
    All this led me to this survey, which I am very grateful to Cedars for caring enough to make a difference.
    JW’s are awakening and it is beautiful to see some start to have a mind that is working and heart that is now unselfish and caring to all (not just those in their bubble of conformity).

  81. Faithful Witness says:

    I agree with your mission of exposing and righting wrong, but the message has to be heard, if it is to make a difference. I find people are more likely to listen when you whisper, than when you yell.
    BTW, yelling at your computer screen itself, sometimes actually feels better than trying to put your passion for a cause in writing. Most people reading these comments will not hear you, either way. ;)
    Kevin, keep examining the facts, and decide for yourself. The truth is out there.

  82. Kevin Kennedy says:

    Rowland,
    When people become witnesses they know what they are getting into. not all family member are going to be happy specially when they start to see the changes people make.

    Your comments are great for this site, very dramatic, i’ll get a tissue, wait….
    Loose the drama, millions of families fave been happy serving for years, there is another side to this story, millions of other stories happy stories.

    In my view it is my humble opinion that a person who lets an org a person control their mind is week, so maybe that’s the problem.

    You just switch from one mind control to another, but they both are unhealthy relationships, these types of people need to jump on a cause. before they were for and now they are against.

    Look at all the people that have a higher education today. local college of trade is much better than years of debt and no job to pay.

    No one has been exploited. it’s called being on of Jehovah’s Witnesses. altruism.

    No mind control here, I need my wonderful powerful mind to judge and evaluate, i don’t swallow everything i am told.

    Do you believe everything you read and are told?
    I don’t, my family doesn’t, we don’t accept things just because of who said it /exception BIBLE.

    Apparently you don’t need a mind either to be stuck in time, with all that negative energy complaining about people that are happily living their lives with no thought to you’re daily objections to them.
    Back to the significant other-☼As long as you care, yr hooked.

  83. Kevin Kennedy says:

    I wish you and all who read me the best, from the bottom of my heart.

    Parents are responsible for their children, a parent must have a grip on their children in order to protect them and shield them from harm.

    People who are not Witnesses have a very different life, as you well know. Jw try to keep their children’s mind occupied with spiritual things, now you still believe in Christ Christendom style which is a theological topic which is not allowed here, but keep in mind that this God has 2 others just like him. that’s why the little nephew thinks that you worship you know who.

    People look to associate with people who have similar interest, in order to bond but if you don’t have anything in common it’s kinda hard to work with that there.

    But i do put myself in yr place/shoes and do understand.
    The children are being taken care of, they are being tough good things, so don’t worry about them.

    Wish you all the best.

  84. Kevin Kennedy says:

    Rowland
    I am at ease with looking forward to Armageddon day when Jehovah destroys the greater part of the human race for the refusal to believe.

    I cant wait!

    a wonderful loving organized group is warning people today before it happens so watch out, God ‘ll get cha for that as Maude Findley wld say.

    Change is Good without change we wld still be without anesthesia.
    change in doctrine specially good, it means things are alive, anything that does not change is dead, look at the churches.

    No body looks forward to the day when God murders me, are you crazy? That might be the thinking of the group you hang with, but my brothers admire me and love me because i am a wonderful beautiful person.

    It’s like they take you into the back room of the hall and torture you until you tell them that you don’t believe every single word that comes from an imperfect human being. you may be right but i don’t think so, this is the real world, come outta that fantasy in ye head.

    I’s mind control, look out!

  85. Rowland Nelken says:

    Wrong again, Kevin. I was 5 years old when first taken to the Kingdom Hall. I had no armoury of reason to combat JW murderous filth. It was not my decision to be subjected to JW horrors.

    So, Kevin, if you imagine you choose to believe or disbelieve whatever the JW bosses spout, then, according to them you are dead meat. Jehovah will zap you at Armageddon. If, however, you are a content, happy and fulfilled true believer then you have to believe the lot, as issued by God’s exclusive earthly rep. since Day 1 in 1879.

    So, Kevin – you, if you really are a true JW, believe this little lot:

    Jehovah’s plan can be calculated by taking measurements from the Great Pyramid.
    Jehovah has no opinion on blood transfusion: Pre 1945.
    Jehovah will murder anyone who has a blood transfusion: post 1945.
    Jehovah is OK with blood fractions but will murder you if you donate any blood from which fractions are taken: 21st century.
    Jehovah approves of Christmas celebrations: pre 1925.
    Jehovah will murder you if you celebrate Christmas: post 1925.
    The Gov. Bod. are the Faithful and Discreet Slave as referred to by Jesus in Matt. 24.
    Armageddon will occur in 1914, 1925, 1941, 1975 and before the death of the 1914 generation.

    If you are a JW you have to believe all the above, or Jehovah will murder you. Maybe you doubt some of them. If you do, Jehovah will murder you.

    If you do believe all the above, presumably you are at ease and fulfilled with the idea that Jehovah will murder anyone who doubts.

    You are a tragic victim of cult mind control; an unpaid mag. pusher for a global publishing and property corporation. So many nominal JWs write anonymously to JW Facebook pages to explain that they only keep up appearances of true belief in order not to lose their family through shunning.

    Pre internet those of us who left the JWs were met with bewilderment when we explained our detestation of our erstwhile Alma Mater. JW PR was successful in presenting its image of polite and well dressed religious enthusiasts. Those days are over. Ex JWs are now organised. AAWA (go google) will not cease its campaign until your cult has abandoned its damaging practices of shunning, of its ban on blood transfusion, its protection of pedophiles and its terrorising of young minds with its Armageddon fantasies.

    It should not be too much of a leap for JWdom to radically change its tune. Its grubby little history is a litany of doctrinal flip flops. If reform means curtains for your cult, so much the better. Get used, Kevin to the idea of life without a Kingdom Hall.

  86. Rowland Nelken says:

    Change is, of course, good. Truth, however does not change. JW TRUTH is of a different order. It is anything and everything spouted by the JW bosses.

    I note, Kevin, that you have swallowed the JW nonsense that your little late 19th century Adventist spinoff sect is no part of Christendom. JWs are part of Christendom, a singularly ugly little part. JWs are also part of the world, one of its worst aspects.

  87. Rowland Nelken says:

    Dispute an edict or diktat issued by your New York bosses, Kevin, and you will be excommunicated from your little fringe church of Christendom and shunned by all those who now profess to love you. Why should anyone believe the stuff spouted by a bunch of old men in New York who claim, with zero evidence, that they are God’s exclusive earthly rep.? Do you, Kevin, have any evidence to connect the JW bosses with the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ of Matthew 24? I have asked dozens of JWs for evidence. None has supplied any. The reason is simple. There is no evidence. And the track record of these would be spouters of TRUTH? Duff prophecy, doctrinal flip flops, deaths through refusal of blood, protection of pedophiles, lost educational opportunities and split families through shunning. And you, Kevin Kennedy, expect people to believe and follow your organisation. The skids are under your outfit now. Wait for the string of child abuse cover up cases to hit the headlines. The fraudulent nature of your grubby little fringe cult of Christendom will be common knowledge. The dropout rate of born in JWs is already, at c. 66%, the biggest in Christendom. This can only increase. The size and determination of the group determined to smash the Watchtower can only grow. Get used to the idea of a world where the JWs follow the Buchanites, the 5th Monarchy Men, the Millerites, Taborites and Joachimites into the graveyard of CHristendom’s apocalyptic loony groups.

  88. Kevin Kennedy says:

    I am not there to dispute or argue, when if that day ever comes I’m outta there that’s all, Try to take control of any group causing division and you most probably will be canned.

    Shunned but loved, you punish yr children so then can feel the difference and take note. i don’t believe in the old men you are referring to. But what i have learned so far is right on!

    You asked me what i believe and i will tell you, the faithful slave is connected to Jehovah’s witnesses, the truth about what the bible teaches jw have it down.

    The thinking out loud and the conjectures of Humans to not negate the facts. i am not going to list the differences between the warring churches and the Christians
    about the churches and the command to not be part of the world

    Can you tell a Christendom Cristian from a non believer, no you cant, but you can spot a jw a mile away.

    You need some kind of evidence the JW teach the truth from the bible?

    I am not going to suggest the obvious.

    The difference is starring you in the face u just cant see it.

    The biggest thing for me was the a political view of the witnesses bible based for sure.

    The doctrinal flip flops have had to do with time periods. the same things happens in science and everywhere people keep learning and we can never know too much specially about Jehovah GOD

    The deaths for refusing to disobey God specially when yr close to death, when yr dying that’s not the time to start ignoring God’s law and today blood transfusions are considered old school. who whats someone elses waist pulsing through yr cells. blood is special only made for that person don’t touch it, leave it alone.

    Pedophiles are everywhere gotta watch the kids at all times don’t trust anyone period, and if anyone touches my kids they have a problem with me if find out about it first, that unfortunately is part of the degradation this wrld is going through before it is destroyed glory hallelujah! oh Glory!

    Drop out rate you say, answer not true, how can you know that, unless yr the long island medium.

    Don’t hate, congratulate.

    And you tell me there is a big growing group who’s sole purpose in life is to destroy the wt? pretty sad don’t u think to be wasting all that energy on something so negative as destroying the wt, you thing they will succeed? i don’t think so.

    Listen if Hitler and Fidel were not able to get rid of JW’S no mickey mouse group will either.

    Listen mr, the witnesses have been without the WATCHTOWER decades in some countries and when the vail is lifted the amount of people that study and meet with the witnesses is impressive. so we need Jesus that’s all we need. it seems that the more people persecute these winners the better they get.

  89. Kevin Kennedy says:

    of course truth changes, we thought the world was flat for us that was the truth at that time.

    We cant walk in space for us that was the truth at one time
    So the truth changes as we are prepared to assimilate it in time. that will be 50 dollars.

    The truth is the information that we have about any given subject at that time.

    I don’t swallow the nonsense repeated by you about the witnesses, and what ever names you wish to call them in a demeaning fashion. That is a desperate attempt to be mean spirited and hateful, good luck with that there.

    Jw are very different and are no part of the churches of today that call themselves followers of Christ.

    Gotta clean out the world to make way for the few the proud the worshipers of JEHOVAH! a small group but a rowdy one.

    Life without kingdom hall is the way i grew up my friend.

    We meet anywhere and everywhere even in the nazi concentration camps the witnesses that were there meet and had worship right there under the guards noses.

    You Guys seem to think that Christians are wimps, were rough and were tough, and we are rugged. air conditioning ans actual seats to sit on please!

    we meat in the swamp in the dark.
    Magazine WATCHTOWER

    rarely seen, but many bible study and a lot of attendance at the clandestine meetings

    What else, i am mind controlled, that is because i don’t agree if i were to agree then you wld be controlling my beautiful precious mind.

    And Just because we worship God in peace and preach the good news to others you hate me, how could you hate me? nobody hates the big K,

    Listed ROLND, chill, relax.
    The watchtower really did a number on you child!

    There are great mental health providers that can help you with that watchtower issue that you have there.

    Must be pretty uncomfortable having to write down and relive all that negativity but you seem to enjoy the emotional pain reliving it time after time, judging it, discussing it tarring it apart, turning it around in yr head day after day, after day, thinking of the next posting, because you got something you just gotta say and answer back. obsession is a perfume.

    Go to sleep relax pay to JAH
    i’ll party i mean pray for you

  90. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    We are not out to get rid of witnesses. I don’t want to see any witness harmed or impeded in their worship.

    I want to see healthy debate. I want to see a leadership that takes reasonable and morally helpful decisions.

  91. Faithful Witness says:

    I’m sure you have heard, “you will know them by their fruits…”
    This has many applications and applies to everyone. One question for you, the same as I asked my mom:
    How many new baptized members do you have in your congregation, as a result of the house to house ministry? How many service hours does your congregation report each month?
    I would like to suggest that the field ministry work you are doing, is almost fruitless. It is busy work, behavior control. I know you are doing this at your own free will, but have you ever considered that there might be a better way to serve the master? If you are a follower of Christ, you should be his servant and serving the least of his brothers. He never said only serve JW’s… He instructed his sheep to feed the hungry and help the poor.

    With that said, I want to express my appreciation for your heartfelt expressions here. You are clearly a devout JW. Your thoughts and opinions do matter.

  92. Rowland Nelken says:

    Kevin. Youyr state of mind is desperate. Yes, there are pedophiles in every walk of life. JWdom, however, is unique in that it uses the Bible, with its 2 Witness rule, to protect them.

    You clearly do not understand the doctrine of JWdom. According to your bosses the only route to salvation is through the Faithful and Discreet Slave, the old geezers in New York. If you do not accept their authority as absolute then you are an apostate and, although I wish you health and happiness, your JW bosses look forward to the day God murders you at Armageddon.
    Yes, many scientific theories change. But JW TRUTHS are presented as immutable, God given and absolute. The JW TRUTHS you have to believe, on pain of Armageddon execution today, may be binned by your New York bosses tomorrow. Had you received blood fractions in the 1950s that would have merited an Armageddon zapping (at an Armageddon due before the end of last century incidentally!).
    You are also, Kevin, defying the JW bosses by engaging with apostates. You do not seem to realise that you have elected to belong to an absolute dictatorship of the mind. Loads of cults and sects have come and gone in Christendom. Your little Adventist spinoff’s days are numbered.

    When there is a threat to human happiness, or indeed to human life, those who know of the threat have a duty to fight it. That threat may come from terrorists, disease, malign religious cults or criminals. The Advocates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses mean business. The WTBTS has got loads of money, certainly and can buy expensive lawyers. Along with the dark arts of cult mind control have come the techniques for exploiting a gullible unpaid mag. distribution labour force. If the Candace Conti fine is exemplary, then a series of convictions could make a serious dent in JW finances. Recruitment outside Africa has stalled. When the cash dries up the WBTS will go into liquidation. Bring on that happy day!

    It is interesting to note that you, Kevin, have given no evidence for any of the ever changing TRUTHS spouted by your bosses. I have listed a number of absurd pronouncements. You have listed no positive JW achievements or insights whatever. There is a simple reason for that. There are none.

  93. Faithful Witness says:

    Excelsior: I agree! I would like JW’s to be able to express their opinions and speak their minds, like anyone else. They should be allowed to form their own opinions and maybe even their own beliefs! Independent thoughts from a JW, would be most refreshing. I hope that any thinking JW will take the few minutes to complete the anonymous survey, which is the purpose of this site… Giving the JW’s a voice! http://www.jwsurvey.org
    No one has to know you were here… Your thoughts do matter, even if you’re not allowed to doubt out loud.

  94. Rowland Nelken says:

    We at AAWA, the Advocates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses owe a debt of gratitude to Kevin Kennedy. His posts are a ghastly illustration of the mental damage wrought by the behaviour of the Watchtower Society. He has confirmed, in his comment above, that he looks forward to the Day of Armageddon when his God will murder the greater part of the human race, for the refusal to follow, blindly and absolutely, every diktat issued by the Gov. Bod. of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    These 8 self appointed, controlling, arrogant and money grabbing old men head an outfit which has the following ‘achievements’ to its credit (debit?):

    1. It is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths, including those of children, for its ban on blood transfusion.

    2. It has a Bible based policy for protecting pedophiles.

    3. It has caused thousands of families to be irrevocably split due to its edicts on shunning.

    4. It is the cause of countless Armageddon filled nightmares.

    5. It has a issued a series of duff prophecies.

    6. It associated with the United Nations, which it had condemned as the Whore of Babylon, before its cover was blown.

    I have asked many JWs to list the positive achievements of their cult. There have been none forthcoming.

    Kevin Kennedy genuinely believes that the majority of humanity deserve the death penalty for not following blindly every pronouncement of the leaders of this obscene and hideous outfit. Like other JWs, he can name no positive achievements of the misery making corporation to which he has sacrificed his life.
    Ultimately, Kevin Kennedy, I wish you well; I wish you freedom from the clutches of the criminal old geezers in New York. Rest assured, however, that your pronouncements in the meantime are of great service to the movement that looks forward to, and is working towards, your cult’s implosion.

  95. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Rowland,

    You seem to be under the wrong impression.
    The watchtower was established disseminate Jehovah God’s message mainly in print.

    We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body,
    ►they have their mouths right under their nose just like everybody else. they are not profits and we all know that, JW don’t believe in modern day prophecies

    Due to this wonderful selfless work, directed by the angels of Jah many people have become literate.

    They have been freed from the fear of the dead, the fear of burning in hell and now are free to worship Jah.

    When the WATCHTOWER PRESSES, Go Bankrupt, and or are destroyed by Rowland’s group of people will the witnesses disappear
    -OH HAPPY DAY FOR ROWLAND!?
    not so fast.

    Picture iT WALKILL 2099, The Watchtower edifice is Gone!
    The printing pressed are silent, a mouse urinating on a cotton ball can be heard. To witnesses meet secretly, one has a copy of the bible, the other ink for the home pressed now being used in local neighborhoods, the work of Jehovah’s witnesses have gone underground.

    But danger lurks all around the people who used to write about a HAPPY DAY without the WITNESSES have actually organized into bands of armed men and women who are busy dragging witnesses family out of their homes and making an example of the in front of the public at large. The meetings are still held and the preaching still goes on, the memorial is still held every year.

    Is this a fantasy? this would never happen in the good old us of a , ah but it has happened, it happened in here in the US OF A-.

    And ROWLAND , my friend here you are proposing to exterminate the JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES once more just like it happened in the past.

    We don’t depend on a governing Body or printing presses
    we depend on Christ.

  96. Rowland Nelken says:

    Thank you for confirming, Kevin Kennedy, the points I have been making. Your bosses repeat over the years that they and their organisation are the only route to salvation, the only channel to God. You clearly do not believe a fundamental tenet of your cult. You are desperate to imagine you are a free agent. Your bosses tell you the organisation is indispensable; you declare you can do without it.
    http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/quotes-regarding-watchtower-organization-and-salvation

    Either way, whichever is describing the real situation, you have given no reason why anyone should want anything to do with an outfit whose soul effects have been unnecessary deaths from refusal of blood, a string of duff prophecies, wasted lives through the disapproval of education and split families through shunning. You have, in your many and lengthy posts, not only failed to answer any criticisms, but have failed to offer any reason why anyone should want anything to do with an outfit whose record is disgraceful, negative, misery making and murderous.

    Quite possibly, as you point out, the end of the JW org. may not be the end of the history of Christendom’s apocalyptic lunacy. Adventists, after all, regrouped after the Millerites dispersed, and the JWs and the David Koresh gang broke away from the Adventists. The 5th Monarchy Men were not the last group of English apocalyptic wackoes. We can only hope that, in time, the whole cruel nonsense will go the way of armed crusades, witch and heretic burning and the other monstrosities that litter the history of Christendom.

  97. Faithful Witness says:

    Kevin said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”

    Can you provide one example of an “opinion” you have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?

  98. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Rowland

    Life isn’t black or white,
    You want to pigeonhole me into a box to accommodate you and yr distorted view of the witnesses.

    The only way to salvation is doing Gods will and JW’S are doing it.
    so it is best to be with those.

    You are desperate to discredit anything that is true, i declare we had done without the organization as you think as you see. but we are still with you.

    One wants to be with this group specially for the things you point out.

    they adhere to Gods written law of Blood.
    They don’t allow corruption to infiltrate the Cong.
    People who violate God’s law and refuse to correct this after many chances are expelled, again bible based. but we cant discuss that because number one you don’t care about that we do and secondly it’s against the rules of this site.

    The prophecy’s you talk about era imagenery in yr head.
    yr just mindlessly repeating what you read.

    ►ROWLAND Just to let you in on something you probably do not know . They don’t believe in prophets today, and they have stated this in the literature.

    so we got rid of one misunderstanding now, so now you know this that you dis not know before. lets see what else

    I do not have to give reasons why should be with an outfit such as this as you say, the purpose here is to give reasons why you shouldn’t and i will dispel them and tell you the real truth about things.

    Every time you say an untruth I’ll be there to correct you.

  99. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Faithful Witness says:
    October 13, 2013 at 11:21 am

    Kevin said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”

    Can you provide one example of an “opinion” you have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?

    ______________

    Sure i dont know the level of knowledge that you have on the jw’s i will elaborate, since 1935 JW’S came to understand more clearly that not all go to heaven, so they thought or put out there in the mags and books that the number was complete and no more anointed were being chosen for heaven.

    One of the GB when on to say in the WATCHTOWER,
    “NO MORE INCORPORATION”

    According to what you would have US believe, it would be unthinkable that one of Jehovah’s witnesses would do something the GB has said you dont need to do.

    So now new memorial partakers!!!!
    is that what happened?

    look at the statistics…

  100. Rowland Nelken says:

    Thank you, Kevin Kennedy for failing to address a single point I made and thus demonstrating yet again the tragic state of mind of a true believing JW.

    You mentioned Jehovah’s Law of blood. Can you tell me why Jehovah keeps changing his mind on this law?

    Why does a pure congregation take special care, using a verse from Deuteronomy, to protect pedophiles within its ranks?

    I attended the Kingdom Hall regularly in the 1950s and was assured that the 1914 generation would not pass before the advent of Armageddon.

    It is clear, that you not only choose to defy your New York bosses, but you have very little idea about what it is JWdom actually stands for. Presumably you just drift along there out of habit and enjoy the feeling of superiority.

    I do not expect any answers with information or reasoned argument. You have demonstrated that of both you are incapable. Doorstep preaching is pretty ineffectual even when conducted by the articulate. It is some consolation that your rambling drivel is highly unlikely to ensnare anyone into your cult. My thanks to you once again for providing a public demonstration of the tragic state of mind of a JW true (or maybe untrue) believer.

  101. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Rowland,

    My boss is not in ny, they moved to walkill,.. no just kidding, he’s up in the sky above watching you so look out!

    First let me correct you again because yr unbelievably confused. number one, our dear beloved brothers who compose our beloved and respected governing body, as holy as you might think they are, there not JEHOVAH.

    And about pedophiles, let’s clear up one more thing so pay attention, If you were informed of, or if you caught some one in the act of molesting abusing yr child, you would calmly call the elders, have them set up a meeting with you and, are you kidding me? for real!!!

    Hey Guys wake up!! the congregation has little to do with this, this is s legal matter. if later the matter is addressed by the elders i really dont care personally if i was in that case God help me.

    Remember that the elders children are also at risk of molestation, and it’s not just one elder, in many cases there are 8 elders in a congregation, whole families are at risk from this predator so take that into account when you accuse them of protecting such and such.

    If you believed that before any date in time the end wld come, yr mind is week and foolish this is not what you have learned from the boss upstairs in heaven, actually it is just the contrary, so look upon it as a test that you failed miserably.

    I have constantly demonstrated that you are not acting in good faith in these discussions, get ready to be challenged by this humble servant of yours and Christ in the stamens that you make that are false.

    Don’t Get mad because i showed you up- Rowland
    Yr idea of a discussion dis not go yr way because i speak the truth fairly, i recognize the things that have gone wrong as far as dates just like it has been recognized in print.

    I recognize that the disfellowshiping is very heart breaking, any sin breaks families.

    If you don’t agree with the teachings of this group leave it’s that simple, you dont even have to be disfelloowshiped do it yr self, stop doing what they do.

    Go with some dignity that it.

  102. Faithful Witness says:

    Kevin, you are being misled.
    You said, “The only way to salvation is doing Gods will and JW’S are doing it.
    so it is best to be with those.”
    Who told you that?

  103. DJ says:

    Do all Jehovah Witnesses Blackmale and Threaten young Children .That God will hate them
    My oldest grandson found a toy in Kitimat BC Kingdom Hall .That another parent brought along for their young child to play with .My Grandson found it played with it a bit . My Daughter Boyfriends adopted so called mother .Told my oldest grandson .Who is Autism .That GOD will HATE HIM ..It was my grandson who really wanted to go to Church .Now after this woman said this to him .He has never went back to this Kingdom Hall .Nor does he want anything to do with this woman .
    Please keep in mind I am a Christian Woman .Our Bodies are God’s Temples and Our Hearts should be God’s Church .Jesus tell us all To love one another .God gave us all the same 10 rules to OBEY HIM
    This women I tell you about .Has also tried hard to steel both my Daughters boys .and wants my Daughter to give her child to her adopted Daughter yet tell my Daughters youngest boy ..( quoting my grandson words here .This 1 is only 5 years old – He told his mom .You are not my real mom .Gramma is my real mom .And I only have to list to her and dad .) Yet this woman is Jehovah Witnesses .Claims she has never had SEX with her Husband .So how sick is this ? Huh is these the kicks of sick things you practice on little peoples heads and Brain washing them .GOD”S Wrath will give this woman night mares and others too if this is being done to young ones .For all children belong to God and come from God .For killing them and not helping them when needed .Now you are all warned

  104. Rowland Nelken says:

    Kevin Kennedy is a contradiction in terms. He pretends he is a Jehovah’s WItness, but ignores all that they teach him about the Faithful and Discreet Slave being the only route to salvation. He also claims to be unaware that the JW bosses have regularly come out with dates for Armageddon. OK, so this guy, and fellow loonies, may well continue with some self centred Armageddon fantasies in their heads after the WT Establishment goes belly up. Whether any will form a global publishing coy. and mind control cult on a similar scale is, though, open to question. JWs have already been found guilty, in the Candace Conti case, of neglecting their duty to children. Presumably Kevin Kennedy will pretend that this case and the others to follow are as fictional as he wants to imagine JW Armageddon date setting has been. The JW bosses, of course, will wish Kevin an Armageddon death for imagining he can bypass their authority and get straight to the Big Man in the Sky without their exclusive mediation. If the JW bosses knew of Kevin Kennedy’s apostacy he would be disfellowshipped.

  105. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    To rowland:

    Wrong one more Mr Ro.
    I have demonstrated time and again that yr accusations are desperate and baseless, you have entered into yr own world. awake!.

    You expect people to act and behave according to that story in yr head, and when that does not happen you get frustrated. too bad for you.

    According to the faithful and discrete slave of our lord Jesus, the only way to salvation is what Jesus said, read IT.

    I am aware of the dates, they were not prophetic words like the evangelicals.

    ►JW dont believe in modern day prophets
    so there is another of yr baseless arguments down

    lets continue:

    The ignorance you display is daunting, Christians dont depend on a printing press to organize and worship God Jehovah. this has been demonstrated all around the world in places where the truth is banned.

    ONE MORE FALLACY DOWN, LETS CONTINUE:
    There are many printing presses and witnesses around the worls that do the same as the central office at brooklyn.

    As a matter of fact and just so you know. just a little bit of inside news you might not be aware of–

    The printing of the mags and books, are being transferred to different zones, there is one in mexico to handle Latin America, another in Australia, and so on.

    Decentralization of the org.

    The case you keep referring to the legal case,
    If someone abuses yr child, you go to the police first supposedly, or you go find the pedophile first, but what kind of parents sit around waiting for the elders to do what?–JUST THINK ABOUT IT- this is all a smoke screen, a non existent issue, I’ll tell you why.

    Any parent that finds out that there child has been abused and goes to the elders of the cong instead of calling the police is a, fill in the blank.

    rowland you are so lost, how did you ever get so messed up?
    because of the witnesses .
    that just proves the point .

    • Cedars says:

      Kevin, I have a question for you.

      You say “JW dont believe in modern day prophets”

      Please could you tell me who are the “two prophets” spoken of in Revelation 11:10?

      I look forward to your answer.

      Cedars

  106. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Cedar, this question implies n answer that would violate the rules of the site if i understood them correctly.

    The question you pose, does not pertain to my statement.

    It is repeated time and time again mindlessly, with out reasoning about it that JW are prophets and that whatever they might say in the literature about any future happening is a prophecy from them. nothing can be further from the truth.

    Jw teach that no human today is able to prophesy, reason for this:
    is all written already in the bible.

    very simple one more lie down.

    Now you can say that i am a troll and am trolling around that yr favorite excuse to kick people out just like you have done in the past.

    • Cedars says:

      Don’t be silly. The answer would not violate the rules of the site. I am asking you who Watchtower identifies as being the “two prophets” – not giving you license to indoctrinate people. I discuss Watchtower doctrine all the time but am clearly not indoctrinating anyone.

      If you don’t answer the question you will prove yourself to be a troll.

  107. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Faithfullwitness
    Who told you that?

  108. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Faithful Witness says:
    October 13, 2013 at 11:21 am

    Kevin said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”

    Can you provide one example of an “opinion” you have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?
    ——————————————

    Sure, I’ll provide you with one big example, i dont know how familiar you are with JW teachings but from the looks of things here, i will elaborate.

    In 1935 JW came to a clearer understanding about heaven, they understood that a small representative group of people wld go to heaven.

    They thought that this calling was more or less coming to an end, closed, a member of the governing body went as far to say
    NO MORE IN CORPORATIONS!!-

    So according to you guys here, it wld be unfathomable for a JW to go against the GB especially in this occasion especially in front of all when all eyes are upon you at that moment.

    According to what you would have us believe all memorial participation stopped!! on a dime.

    IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED?
    CHECK THE STATISTICS.

  109. Faithful Witness says:

    Kevin: So, are you telling us that you are partaking of the memorial emblems? I think you misunderstood my question.

    You said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”

    Can you provide one example of an “opinion” YOU have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?

    Also still wondering about your statement: “The only way to salvation is doing Gods will and JW’S are doing it. so it is best to be with those.”

    Who told you that was the way? Who said JWs are doing God’s will? Do you know what Jesus actually said about this? (John 14:6)

  110. Rowland Nelken says:

    The Watchtower outfit has been convicted and fined in the case of Candace Conti. Its Bible based 2 witness rule is illegal. JWs have made prophecies. That they say they do not believe in modern prophecy is simply another of their crazy contradictions.

    You want to believe, Kevin, that as a JW, you have a direct line to Jesus. You do not. Your bosses demand that you approach JC through his earthly sole agent, the New York (or Warwick County) bosses.

    I presume you have devoted so much of your life, your time and your energy as an unpaid mag. distributor for that corrupt cult that you have to try and convince yourself that JW TRUTH is true.

    You are defying them anyway by interacting on this site with apostates so your bosses for whom you have contributed your time, money and energy, will consider you dead meat anyway. It is tragic, I realise, that you have nowhere else to go.

    I hope that when the Watchtower falls, or you recover from your pathetic delusion, Kevin kennedy, that you find a meaningful and contented way of life. Millions of ex JWs have done just that and there will be plenty of support when you wake up.

    Best wishes.

  111. Rowland Nelken says:

    When I was a JW, back in the 1950s, a pre 1914 baptism was the cutoff date for admission to the 144000 and participation in the Memorial. In my Leigh on Sea congregation there were two old ladies and one old gent who qualified. That the ‘heavenly admission’ and Memorial partaking rules have changed is simply par for the crazy JW TRUTH course. Truth, as commonly understood is fixed and immutable. JW TRUTH is of a totally different order. It is anything and everything, no matter how wacky, spouted by the JW bosses. Where this Kevin Kennedy guy has picked up the notion that you can be both a freelance communicant with Jesus and a JW I have not a clue.

    My mad mum was the only baptised JW in my family. I did not thus suffer the agonising traumas of escape suffered by some in the ex JW community. Like Kevin, and his delusion that you can be a JW and bypass the bosses, my mother had a similar delusion. She imagined that being an unwashed and unkempt scruff made her super Holy. She was defiantly blind to the JW dress code even when it cost her the ‘privilege’ of door knocking. She was proud to announce, however, that she was still permitted to distribute magazines to neighbours and acquaintances.

    JWdom attracts a whole hot of the vulneable, biddable, depressed and downright deranged. Kevin Kennedy is simply one more tragic example.

  112. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    fAITHFULLWITNESS:

    Yes that is what i am telling you and i dont think you grasped it, basically they said the number of the anointed was complete.

    At the age of 15 the GB was a big deal to me, they were it. basically they did not know what they were saying on this issue.

    I partook and everybody else who felt they needed to did, so that is a big example of something that cant get more important.

    The JW did not go along with the program on that, people still partook whatever the GB SAID.

  113. KEVIN KENNEDY says:

    Cedars commented on About JW Survey.

    in response to KEVIN KENNEDY:

    Cedar, this question implies n answer that would violate the rules of the site if i understood them correctly. The question you pose, does not pertain to my statement. It is repeated time and time again mindlessly, with out reasoning about it that JW are prophets and that whatever they might say in the literature [...]

    Don’t be silly. The answer would not violate the rules of the site. I am asking you who Watchtower identifies as being the “two prophets” – not giving you license to indoctrinate people. I discuss Watchtower doctrine all the time but am clearly not indoctrinating anyone.

    If you don’t answer the question you will prove yourself to be a troll.
    ——-__________________________

    I dont do well with threats, you just lost the answer i was prepared to give you, maybe yr just very young and don’t know how to speak with people, but that’s not the way to deal with me.

    i expected no less, you did not disappoint

    • Cedars says:

      You don’t get it, do you Kevin?

      I have a duty to keep JWsurvey free from trolls so that it can be enjoyed by all.

      I asked you a simple question, and you refused to answer it simply because you know full well the answer contradicts what you have said elsewhere on this page.

      This proves to me that you are not interested in genuine debate but only in pursuing your own agenda.

      Henceforth you are banned from commenting on JWsurvey.

  114. Faithful Witness says:

    Kevin, are you of the anointed class?
    Do you believe that your works (“doing God’s will”) are the only way to get you into heaven?
    We are blessed to have someone of your standing, commenting on this blog! What are your thoughts on Jesus’ words at John 14:6?

  115. Faithful Witness says:

    Kevin, If you were 15 in 1935, then you are now age 93. Is that correct?
    Also, what year was the GB formed?

  116. Rowland Nelken says:

    Like the founder of JW Survey, I too support free speech. It is a pity that Kevin Kennedy was unable to appreciate this freedom and used this site to try and convince himself that free thought and being a Jehovah’s Witness were compatible. If nothing else, his failure to answer questions and his illogical and twisted state of mind were a useful example to any observers, of the tragic inner turbulence that must possess so many practising and indeed, inactive but believing, JWs.

  117. Rowland Nelken says:

    No, Kevin Kennedy, you do not understand TRUTH. Truth is, by definition, unchanging. Scientific ideas about the nature of the universe are not presented as Truth, merely the most likely, bearing in mind current evidence.

    JWdom’s lies have left a whole load of misery in their wake. Advocates for God’s laws, Biblical or otherwise, always claim that they represent the unchanging, immutable and eternal, unaffected by human discovery or fashion. That is the line taken by Christian anti women priest types and Christian gay bashers. It is also the line taken by that most grubby little corner of Christendom, that blight on the world, the Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The old geezers who run it, who would wish Kevin Kennedy a divine murder at Armageddon for defying their authority and interacting with apostates, present their bilge as unchanging, immutable God issued TRUTHS. God thus approves and disapproves of Christmas celebrations, approves and disapproves of blood transfusions, will and will not do his Armageddon before the end of the 20th century.

    The old geezers who run the corrupt global publishing and property corporation known as the Watchtower Society, have claimed, with zero evidence, that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24. Their entire authority rest upon this ridiculous claim.

    So don’t worry Kevin Kennedy. The fact that a bunch of self righteous, self appointed, self serving and controlling old farts in the US think you deserve the death penalty, means nothing whatever. If you really enjoy going to dreary little meeting halls, listening to boring talks and reading awful mags while wearing a boring suit, there need be no laws to prevent you; feel free and carry on. Rest assured, though, that AAWA will not cease its campaign until JWdom has binned its murderous blood policy, packed up shunning those who disagree with its bosses, stopped protecting pedophiles, and no longer terrifies kids and others with its Armageddon nonsense.

  118. Rowland Nelken says:

    Sorry! 2 omissions from the above.

    1. AAWA will continue to highlight, until binned, JW demonisation of higher education.

    2. As well as the JW features mentioned, feel free to continue enjoying the most uninspiring and dull music in Christendom.

  119. Voice_of_Reason says:

    Some of the most wonderful people I have ever met were JWs when I used to go to meetings in the 70s/80s. Rowland Nelken presents some sound arguments and counter-arguments but his vitriol against all Witnesses is grossly unfair. We should remember Psalm 118.8 about ‘putting your trust in mortal man’ when thinking of the GB, for so long as they are alive on this Earth, they are unquestionably ‘mortal men.’ We should remember that one of Christ’s first actions when he went unto his ‘Father’s House’ in Jerusalem, was to throw out the traders and criticise the Scribes and Pharisees: those charged with the spiritual welfare of his ‘flock.’ I am not saying that GB members are of this class but, as a lovely, humble old JW (elder) once said to me: “There could be a few surprises come Judgement Day.” JWs or not, let all of us Christians put our trust in God and Christ. Amen

  120. Liam Smith says:

    Your comments in my opinion come across as rather judgmental.
    I agree with you in that this is the organisation God is using but the way you expressed this to the author of this website was somewhat over the top brother.
    God’s spirit is indeed asked for in directing matters but in some cases the elders with their eyes wide open choose a very unchristian way to express themselves to congregation members even though they are clearly aware of the spirits operation. These men will indeed bring in upon themselves the justice they deserve in treating God’s sheep with disdain and contempt especially when sheep that are stumbled walk away from God.

  121. Rowland Nelken says:

    You write, Liam Smith, that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are God’s organisation. This was the claim made when I was a Jehovah’s Witness. Neither then nor since, despite asking countless Jehovah’s Witnesses to provide evidence to back up this claim, I have never come across any evidence. What evidence can you give, Liam Smith? You realise that, without evidence, the entire authority of the Jehovah’s Witnesses bosses collapses, and they are exposed as nothing more than self appointed, self righteous controllers of a global publishing and property corporation. The JW bosses use this authority, based on an unevidenced claim, to exploit an unpaid labour force of magazine distributors who, for no reward, labour to increase the capital value of the WTBTS.

  122. Liam Smith says:

    When you ask for evidence mate, well all I can say is my own personal evidence which is personal to me and part of my faith.
    I wasn’t brought up as a witness and my time in the organisation has been frankly pretty tumultuous to the point I could easily walk away but for me what it comes down to is my relationship with God and appreciation for the sacrifice his son made.
    Hope this answers you question pal.

  123. Rowland Nelken says:

    Of course it answers no questions at all. If I were to state that the Universe was created 150 years ago by a pink unicorn named Sidney, then you, Liam Smith would have every right to ask me for evidence to support such a bizarre statement of faith. If I were to reply merely that ‘it is my personal faith and I acknowledge that I owe my life and health to the efforts of Sidney the pink unicorn’, would you be satisfied with that answer?

    It is gratifying, at least, that if this is the only justification you can have for your faith in the divine appointment of a bunch of controlling, exploitative old geezers in New York state, then your door knocking evangelising will be even less successful than the average of one new JW recruit every 40 years.

    I sincerely hope, Liam Smith, that you do not fritter away the rest of your life as an unpaid mag. distributor for a corrupt property and publishing corporation.

  124. Liam Smith says:

    To correct you his name is pronounced Sydney or Syd as we affectionately refer to him and for your information he also can be seen in beige and not just pink!!!

  125. Rowland Nelken says:

    Interesting that Faithful Witness has great respect for JWs. That respect is not reciprocated. JWs look forward, obsessively, to the day of Armageddon when their Jehovah is set to murder all non Jehovah’s Witnesses for the capital crime of non Kingdom Hall attendance and non distribution of WT mags.

  126. Rowland Nelken says:

    I remember some very nice people at the Kingdom Hall of my childhood. It is tragic that they had been duped into wasting their lives as unpaid mag. distributors for a corrupt money grabbing cult.

  127. k.chambes says:

    Each and every day Watchtower elders send known pedophiles to offer unsuspecting families, bible studies. So some children will continue to be abused, some will commit suicide, some families will split. Whilst able to protect their own children, these religious leaders refuse to warn the congregation of the present danger of these “hidden in plain sight” predators, who will cause immense damage to some in the congregation in like manner.
    Delude yourself not: the Watchtower is pro pedophile and so are it’s activities!

  128. What is your religion right now? says:

    What is your religion right now, Mr. Cedar?

    If these were the stories, the facts, and opinions about JWs, that Mr. Cedar was a former member of this organization, so what is the religion of Mr. Cedar right now? I just want to know the answer.

    Thanks for posting my comments.

  129. Cedars says:

    “What is your religion right now, Mr. Cedar?”

    I don’t have one. I hope that answers your question.

  130. Darlene says:

    Hi Peter did you know the name JEHOVAH means Lord of Mischief .Please do the research.The proof is out there.There were no Js until the 1600 or 1700s It was OVAH .The proof is in the STRONGS CONCORDANCE BIBLE DICTIONARY 1996 ON OR BEFORE.you will find it shocking.Iknow I did.BLESSINGS ON YOUR JOURNEY FOR THE TRUTH.

  131. cecil scott says:

    How many men are on the governing body? Are they all white? Do they go into the field service? What is the latest prediction when the end of this system will happen? By the way, how old is this denomination? When did the name occur? Why did they celebrate Christmas at one time?

  132. Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

    Cecil, you have asked some really interesting questions. The one about the Governing Body is answered on this site.

    As for the others, maybe a visit to jw facts would help. It’s a great site.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  133. Dr. Cecil Scott says:

    TO: A Happy Witness of Jehovah…..

    What light getting brighter are you talking about? Those whom you refer to as “false religions” have always preached that “the day and the hour, no one knows” referring to the end of the world. Yet you people have predicted the end of the world about 6 times, or a little over 6 times, and yet you claim to be God’s ‘faithful slave.’ You still keep on insinuating/predicting when the end will come. False prophets and a cult.

  134. Dr. Cecil Scott says:

    My questions were all rhetorical/sarcastic. I know the answers to all of them and the answers arent pretty.

  135. gheorghe says:

    Unfortunately, this is the truth. The “organization” is merely a machine, a mammoth without kindness or love for the neighbor…. just words, empty words and contradictions….

  136. gheorghe says:

    to: Mr. Cedar

    Did you read what Pastor Russell wrote? (the six volumes, etc.) The JW’s pretend that Russell is their JW founder but the doctrine he taught is so different from JW’s. He was a truly Christian, I noticed from his writings; and he was appreciated in his days. Hundreds of leading papers published his articles…..In those days there was no higher authority over the ecclesia (congregation)….

    • Cedars says:

      Hello gheorghe

      Welcome to JWsurvey! I hope you find it informative.

      I have read some of what Russell wrote. Frankly, I find his writings rather tiresome, and just as error-strewn as any Watchtower magazine (although arguably not quite as insidious). If I were to believe everything written by Russell I would be a believer that Christ came invisibly in 1878, that black people will (or should?) turn white during Christ’s millennial reign, and that the Pyramid of Giza is God’s “stone witness” because its internal measurements correspond inch-by-inch with bible chronology.

      You are welcome to believe these things if it makes your life more fulfilling but I would rather decline the offer, thanks all the same.

      Cedars

  137. gheorghe (from Romania) says:

    You may be a busy man but: I Like your comments, and thanks for reply. What I really appreciated in Russell writings is the principles the Bible laid down: i.e. redemption for ALL not matter what religion are you in – thru Jesus the Savior; election of a special class today (in the evil world of today); and after that ALL others to be resurrected and taught about God – and the joy ALL the people will have when they will understand God and be blessed by Him. The Bible is full of verses detailing these facts. About opinions: Russell had many opinions but he never insisted you believe all of them. You need to think for yourself. That’s the Bible’s way. And I see you are thinking… I would have so many things to discus with you, and people like you, because The Truth is there and we can find IT. Lord bless.

  138. Holy Cannoli says:

    To unhappy witness? If you can see how they treat you and the the hypocrisy that exist and the fake love they proclaim why not just walk away. Is there any benefit they give by treating you and your family bad? Where is this Love they talk about? Maybe it is not the truth they proclaim?

  139. Holy Cannoli says:

    I have a question for Kevin in his scenario that he gave of the year 2099 and the JW’s being attacked by their neighbors? That is another 85 years into the future and the system is still existing? Doesn’t that totally contradict the 1914 end of gentiles teaching completely and even if you stretch the meaning of GENERATION another 5 times it goes against the number 1 teaching that the JW’s have “prophesied” over the last 75 plus years that the 1014 generation would see the end and the new world would be here? Was that just a joke you were saying Kevin about the year 2099 or has the WT changed their “understanding: again?

  140. gheorghe (from Romania) says:

    I would like to answer some questions, (I understand I may) and wish you think about it: first to Cedars and second to “holy cannoli”
    1. Rev. 11:10. If you read the whole chapter you can see that the 2 witness and 2 prophets, 2 candlesticks, 2 olives are the same thing and they are the OLD and NEW Testament. These books were kept away from the people for a long time, time when the “Holy Roman Empire” was in charge but the truth they did proclaim (after) did hurt the bad system(s).
    2. It is true, the JW did some bad prophecies about time and they change it from time to time, proving they are wrong. Sometimes you just have to say, I DON’T KNOW, to some questions, and that is noting wrong. We find the answer later in time. The fact is that the gentile times did end in 1914 (you can calculate it from the Bible) but I think there is no other date given in the Scripture later than that. And as a proof is the events which followed: empires divided and even countries still divide. It Is the prophecy about the Image in Dan. (2:35 especially).

  141. gheorghe (from Romania) says:

    Oh, and a good link to a way to interpret the symbols of Revelation. And is consistent all the way with other Scriptures: [evangelical link removed]

    • Cedars says:

      Hello gheorghe – it would be appreciated if you would refrain from disrespecting this site and its many visitors by posting evangelical links in direct violation of our posting guidelines. Please don’t do it again. Thanks.

  142. gheorghe (from Romania) says:

    I see my first comment (before the one with the link) did not go through…..well, I can not reproduce the same words. will wait to see maybe will appear latter.

  143. Rowland Nelken says:

    Georghe – All these strange images from Daniel and Revelation, can be, and have been interpreted every which way.

    Let us all remember that hose weird hallucinatory visions have absolutely no bearing on anything beyond the politics of the Middle East c. 2 millennia ago. They are definitely not any sort of guide to the future.

  144. gheorghe (from Romania) says:

    to Cedars:
    sorry, did not want to impose, maybe I misunderstood that I can put a link to a 3-rd party website…..And if I understand correctly: you do not believe anymore in God and in Jesus Christ, His Son? Jesus mentioned The Gospel (Evanghelia) and said to tell people about IT. I thought people writing here are Christians and we can exchange thoughts and believes….about what is wrong and right, true or false from the Bible, THE only Authority for us Christians. If that’s not true I will not any more.

    to Rowland Nelken: I agree that these words can be interpreted one way or the other, but you have to accept that even Jesus refers to Daniel’s prophecies (Mat. 24:15) and precisely about the future, so they are coming from God. For me this is good enough proof that they are telling the future and you can follow it in the history. And if you find an interpretation which is in harmony with all other Scriptures then you did find the PLAN God has for MAN. Ephes. 1:9 and 3:11, Acts 20:27, Rom. 8:28. God has a PLAN and you (everyone) are in IT. Lord Bless.

    • Cedars says:

      gheorghe, you assume an awful lot. The nature and tone of this website is obvious from reading our posting guidelines, which you are now required to familiarize yourself with before posting a comment. The guidelines unequivocally mention evangelical links, but I will accept your apology.

  145. Rowland Nelken says:

    It is Jesus’ references to Daniel and Noah which turn me off the guy. I appreciate that some of Jesus’ teachings are quite sound, and even worthy of repetition and observance 2000 years after they were allegedly spoken. As far as my own studies have shown, however, it seems tha Jesus was one of many freelance apocalyptic rabbis in what has come to be known as the first century. Once Paul had established a fringe Jewish sect in Jesus’ name, a whole load of stories grew up about the guy a generation and more after his death. That St. Paul’s sect collected more support amongst Gentiles than Jews, and the Gentiles were none too keen on the Torah, especially circumcision, led to Christianity’s final split with Judaism by the end of the first century. This could well be what much of Revelation is about. Yes, there are Christians of a range of types who contribute to this site, but there are many others too.

  146. gheorghe (from Romania) says:

    ok…. I see. I am a Christian and I believe the Bible is the Word of God. In the end All will be glad to believe, but now not every one can, like Jesus said. Peace be with you all. See you in the Kingdom of Jesus, not long from now, as the events in the world demonstrate that this systems, organizations, are falling apart. But the NECESITY of Man will be the OPORTUNITY of God to help him – in due time.

  147. Faithful Witness says:

    1000 IS a small number of voices, compared to the millions that are currently serving Jehovah’s organization. MILLIONS of people who are not allowed to express themselves. Millions of people who remain silent, out of fear of losing their families and everything they have ever known.

    What is your point? There are millions of people in this organization, who remain voiceless.

    Jesus cared about EVERY sheep. Perhaps someone can explain why those who have been appointed to shepherd the flock today, ignore the cries of the children who are being abused? They are more concerned with protecting the name of their religion (vindicating the name of Jehovah), than they are with caring for those in their charge.

    EVERY voice matters. Do you agree with everything the JW’s are preaching and practicing today? Everything?

  148. John Nelson says:

    Why do they lie so much?
    Is it the last days?
    Is it after Armageddon?
    Is it the thousand year reign?
    Are people being resurrected?
    Does Jehovah permit homosexuality?
    Why lie to any?
    If the wages for sin is death why resurrect any to judgements?
    Why torment anyone?
    Why not help all?
    Why lie?

  149. Holy Conolli says:

    Georghe from Romania;
    I just saw your explanation and response. Sorry for late reply.
    You say Gentile times REALLY did end in 1914? What is that Idea based on? If you use the 2520 years that the JWs teach as representing 2520 years and 99% of all scholars and even the WT knows Jerusalem was nor destroyed in 607bce but in 587 BCE it throws the entire Idea out the window! The fact that kingdoms were divided after 1914 does not prove anything in regard to Gentile times. Kingdoms have been divided ever since man was on the earth.
    I used to think that bc of all the deaths and wars in WW! and WW2 that it must be largest amount of death ever? No, it isn’t. Look up Largest deaths in war on Google or Wikipedia and you will see deaths in millions and millions of people over the years and with a much less earth population. You never hear the WT talk about those trouble times bc it doesn’t fit their agenda. The entire Idea that Jesus came “INVISBLY” in 1914 but you can’t see him is not scriptural nor is it reasonable and does not make sense if you read the rest of the scriptures about his coming and his revelation.

  150. Rowland Nelken says:

    The history of Islam as well as of Christendom, of which JWdom is but a minor latterday fragment, a late 19th century American Adventist spinoff, is littered with End Times prophets.

    They all suffer from the delusion that the Bible (or Koran) is the Word of God and is somehow a guide to the future.

    Neither book is. They are both works of the human imagination and can tell us quite alot about the societies that gave rise to their production.

    Both, however, are useless as moral guides or predictors of humanity’s future.

    Their continued use as humanity’s ultimate guide is tiresome, painful and sometimes murderous. Time those old books were consigned to a museum

  151. Fynn says:

    Cedar, I worried about your intend for creating this site. If you think the Governing Body is doing something wrong why not seek help from the body of elders.

    Do you think you are challenging the arrangement of Jehovah?

    This I think is similar to that of Dathan and Korah of old. They rebeled against the appointed man of Jehovah. – Num. 16.

    Why not turn to Jehovah again.

    [link removed]

  152. Rowland Nelken says:

    Fynn, are you real or a sendup?

    How can an organisation like the Watchtower, whose only legacy in their 135 year existence is a string of duff prophecies, a trail of deaths through teir fli flopping edicts on blood transfusion, split families through the shunning diktats, stunted lives through the frowning on education and paedophile protection, courtesy of the 2 witness rule, have any connection to any god that might exist?

    JWdom also depends on being able to kid its followers, in the face of all available statistics, that wars, earthquakes and epidemics are on the increase.

    It is sites like this one, and they are growing in number, that are making it more difficult for ugly little cults like JWdom that depend on ignorance for their survival, to spread their poisonous message and wreck so many lives.

    I hope Fynn, that your defence of the JWs was in jest and that you are joining us in laughing at your little post.

  153. Excelsior says:

    Fynn,

    Cedars cannot seek help from a body of Elders. The Elders have been appointed by the very men he is concerned about.

    If the Body of Elders found in favour of Cedars, what would happen next? Would they take Cedars’ concerns to the Governing Body? What would be the response of the GB? They would doubtlessly disfellowship the entire body, as they did at Menlo Park.

    Aaron had a rod that budded. His sacrifice was accepted. Moses had a column of flame. What do the Governing Body have to PROVE that they are chosen by Christ?

    Christ anticipated this conundrum. He asked us to look at the fruitage. Many will claim to follow him, but the proof is in the pudding.

    The list of complaints against the GB are long and harrowing:

    Cover up of child abuse

    Cover up of domestic violence

    Rape victims facing a judicial committee to check that they cried out and that they are not guilty of fornication.

    If the GB are really God’s chosen people, then how can they allow these base crimes to perpetuate in their religion? What do you think Christ would think of these atrocities?

    Mr Cedars is a good man. He writes balanced, well researched articles that have helped many, many people understand fully just what the WTBTS is and what it does. I personally think that Christ would be proud of his service to his fellow humans. He would see his self sacrifice as a noble and humane act, that glorified God. Why don’t you?

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  154. Faithful Witness says:

    Fynn,
    Can you please provide some biblical evidence that the governing body has been appointed by Christ? I have been unable to find any quotes from Jesus, or any of the prophets, of any divine leadership being appointed at some later time in the future.

    I have found prophecies about an EVIL power, taking over the world and fooling many during the times of the end… but where is the evidence that God was going to have an organization or any mortal men in charge of his people who were still alive on earth today?

    Please help. I really don’t understand this teaching, and no JW seems to have the answers I seek.

    How do you know that the governing body is appointed by Jehovah?

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